RSA don't shout at motorists advice: This is what annoys me

monument

Icy morning today
Roads gritted but patches in the cycle lane
I'm cycling to work
Alongside a filling station a car comes a long side me and slows
Driver turns on indicator
Their front wheel starts to enter the narrow enough cycle lane that I'm in
Driver has yet to make a full overtake
There's no chance of me slowing that quickly if they kept going, but I did break
I shout out as loud as I can
Driver goes back into their lane and I keep going

We're talking about a few seconds and the length of a mid size filling station front and this was all over in around 3/4 of that. Looks like driver may have been pulling to the kerb to let a passenger out rather than going into the filling station.

So, I look like the loon for shouting and I while I did not get into a "shouting match" with the motorist (I kept going afterwards anyway, even if I wish I had not just to have a quite word), this kind of thing shapes my perspective of the RSA advise on cyclists shouting which is listed above keep away from left turning trucks! http://www.rsa.ie/en/rsa/pedestrians-and-cyclists/cycling-safety/

The advice lacks all context of why a cyclist would and in many cases should shout at motorists. I'm an advocate for having and using a bell, but sometimes shouting is just quicker and more effective.

And if anybody wants to knock my cycling: I don't have regular close calls, and I often stop or slow to avoid stuff and let people out etc. And for the record: it was nearly full daylight but I had lights on and was cycling a cargo bike which is kind of hard to miss! Visibility of my bike was not an issue unless the driver is blind.

/vent over

Chips Lovell

While I wouldn't agree with all of the RSA advice you linked to there, they did say "don't get into a shouting match with motorists". I don't think it really relates to your situation, where you were warning a motorist of a potential collision.

mitosis

Did you sound your bell? In addition, naturally

mitosis

When I get a close call the bell is the last thing on my mind - I scream like a girl

bcmf

If the difference between a motorist mowing me down and not mowing me down is me letting a roar and ending up in a shouting match then I am afriad the RSA can go to hell.

seamus

Agreed with Vlad, the advice is obviously really meant to say, "Don't get into arguments at the side of the road" rather than, "Don't shout at other road users to alert them of a danger".

I've only really found myself shouting at peds in pure exasperation, when they look straight at you but then step out in front of you anway.

TonyStark

You were right to shout. I've done it a few times, nothing more than "Hey" or "Watch out!" It was the right thing to do at that point in time when you felt you were being put in unnecessary danger.

Skrynesaver

AFAIK left turning trucks are the primary cause of cyclist fatalities, so I would have though it would deserve the first position on the list...

As for letting a shout out to alert other road users, I find it faster and more audible than a bell would be.

There's a difference between shouting an alert and enquiring if they got their license in a box of cornflakes in a loud manner

CramCycle

seamus wrote: »

I've only really found myself shouting at peds in pure exasperation, when they look straight at you but then step out in front of you anway.

Replace pedestrian with Dublin Bus and "stepping out" with driving through a junction where I had the right of way, then you have my typical commute, I shouted to alert the guy this mornign and he smiled at me.

monument

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know there's a difference between shouting as a warning and shouting abuse afterwards / getting into a shouting match, but to bystanders and possible to the target motorist it all just looks like 'silly cyclist shouting'.

And that, in any case, the no shouting matches advice seems a bit unfair out of context of the cyclist nearly getting run over.

TonyStark

Skrynesaver wrote: »

AFAIK left turning trucks are the primary cause of cyclist fatalities, so I would have though it would deserve the first position on the list...

As for letting a shout out to alert other road users, I find it faster and more audible than a bell would be.

There's a difference between shouting an alert and enquiring if they got their license in a box of cornflakes in a loud manner

Speaking of cornflakes.....

nerraw1111

I’m pretty sure the RSA are not saying: “if you’re about to hit a car, please stay quiet and adopt the brace position.”

Quite clearly says: “don’t get into shouting matches.” Which is sound advice.

Does this really need clarification?

Beasty

There have been one or two occasions when I've not been backward in coming forwards when warning motorists of my presence - shouting is the easiest (and usually safest) way to get there attention when side by side. I usually get a friendly wave of apology which I reciprocate if and when they do get past in a safe manner

Jawgap

Were you also following their advice about awlays wearing ".......luminous clothing such as hi-vis vests, fluorscent armbands and reflective belts so that other road users can see you."

Because if you were, the motorists would see you and there'd be no need for any shouting matches!;)

snubbleste

Bicycle bell OP.
Ring it more than once for extra urgency

godtabh

I shout at motorists all the time. Some bellend pulled out infront of my as I was descending through Sandyford village without long. She missed me by a one or two meters. She got a big roar. Caught up with her at the traffic lights. A glare was enough then. Not worth getting into a fight as nothing meaningful will ever come out it

Iwannahurl

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

So much for King James. The RSA says "respect other road users – don’t get into shouting matches with motorists". No similar advice given to motorists, afaics.

A bell on your bike is as much use as a tinkling cymbal when mixing with motorised traffic. It's a jungle out there. Perhaps what's needed is a horn loud enough to be heard inside a car or truck. Failing that, at times you need to shout and make your presence felt, in my experience. If it's a choice between politeness and avoiding danger I know which I'd choose.

Only yesterday morning I had a brief shouting match with the driver of a large jeep who was rather annoyed at being made to stop at a red light while children were crossing the road on their way to school. The RSA's softly-softly approach is useless in such situations, especially given the lack of effective traffic policing.

Daroxtar

Why shout?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnr6uGIV8no

Beasty

snubbleste wrote: »

Bicycle bell OP.
Ring it more than once for extra urgency

My shout is far more likely to grab a driver's attention than a bell (if I had one )

cdaly_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a jungle out there.

Um, is it not a jingle out there?...

NeedMoreGears

Anyone had the "how dare you shout at me!" from the driver who just attempted to squeeze you out of your lane? (I was in the right turn lane and the driver was trying to muscle over the top of me from the left lane - that or force me into the incoming traffic).

These days I tend to shout "Careful" which seems to carry better than a whole pile of invective. Thankfully not too often.

GlennaMaddy

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

Anyone had the "how dare you shout at me!" from the driver who just attempted to squeeze you out of your lane? (I was in the right turn lane and the driver was trying to muscle over the top of me from the left lane - that or force me into the incoming traffic).=

Once, I meant to say I shouted because I've no horn and instead said "I've no horn for you" #morto

Sesshoumaru

I see too many cyclists taking the time to get into fits of shouting rage with pedestrians, car drivers & motorcyclists. As a motorcyclist I was nearly injured a few weeks ago when a car parked at the side of the road did a sudden u-turn without indicating. I was very angry at the time, but I simply asked the guy would he at least apologise for his foolish maneuver, he did and I left it at that. So I can understand why a cyclist would be angry, but at the same time I see guys on bicycles flying through red lights, pedestrian crossings and then stopping to shout and yell at the pedestrian they almost mowed over. Really is a jungle out there! I'd say the general meaning is to dial down the rage slightly out there.

del_boy13

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

Anyone had the "how dare you shout at me!" from the driver who just attempted to squeeze you out of your lane? (I was in the right turn lane and the driver was trying to muscle over the top of me from the left lane - that or force me into the incoming traffic).

Taxi driver, left lane as he tried to squeeze past a line of traffic, he was moving into a cycle lane with a solid white line.

I think I frightened him as he got a bit upset when he pulled up alongside me.

TonyStark

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

Anyone had the "how dare you shout at me!" from the driver who just attempted to squeeze you out of your lane? (I was in the right turn lane and the driver was trying to muscle over the top of me from the left lane - that or force me into the incoming traffic).

These days I tend to shout "Careful" which seems to carry better than a whole pile of invective. Thankfully not too often.

I had a "Shut your mouth" from a driver that just pulled out of petrol station into my path.

Jawgap

del_boy13 wrote: »

Taxi driver, left lane as he tried to squeeze past a line of traffic, he was moving into a cycle lane with a solid white line.

I think I frightened him as he got a bit upset when he pulled up alongside me.

Has anyone ever laid their hands on a taxi? The drivers go feckin' mental!

I had an incident in Drumcondra where a taxi pulled right across me to get a fare - I though I was gone but I managed to keep myself upright enough to hop off the bike by 'leaning' on the taxi - the driver went ballistic when he got out and started all kinds of shouting - I was thanking my luck still to be in one piece so was in a sort of stunned silence!

Justice, anyway, was done when the intended fare headed off to get another taxi (hopefully it was an airport job) - Mr Shouty Taxidriver then blamed me for that!

Dermot Illogical

Jawgap wrote: »

Has anyone ever laid there hands on a taxi? The drivers go feckin' mental!

True that. I opened both doors on the passenger side of a taxi on Amiens St one day and cycled off to the glorious sound of the driver losing it completely.

NeedMoreGears

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I see too many cyclists taking the time to get into fits of shouting rage with pedestrians, car drivers & motorcyclists......

Just to be clear, the "Careful!" is intended as a warning/attention grabber much like the horn on car is. If there's to be a conversation, I try (mostly succeed to be fair) to keep the ranting and raving out of it.

I've similar experience as Sesshoumaru in terms of an apology follwoing a relatively polite conversation (I've also been told in no uncertain terms to go forth and multiply)

Iwannahurl

Jawgap wrote: »

Has anyone ever laid their hands on a taxi? The drivers go feckin' mental!

Oh yes, actually touching their car makes some drivers go postal. John Waters, protégé of Vaclav Havel, has been quoted (correctly?) as saying that the car is an extension of the self. That would explain a lot in this country.

I once did a gentle drum roll on the bonnet of a large SUV driving towards me, then when I got the driver's attention I pointed down to the footpath he was motoring on. The passenger got out and started shouting at me, as if driving on the pavement was normal and touching a car was threatening behaviour.

Once I thumped on the rear window of a jeep that was blocking a cycle lane. The driver tried to ram me, twice, even though I had two kids on board.

Chips Lovell

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Once I thumped on the rear window of a jeep that was blocking a cycle lane.

Now this is the kind of thing the RSA was highlighting.

humbert

You obviously weren't wearing enough hi-viz.

Trent Houseboat

Jawgap wrote: »

Has anyone ever laid their hands on a taxi? The drivers go feckin' mental!

I had an incident in Drumcondra where a taxi pulled right across me to get a fare - I though I was gone but I managed to keep myself upright enough to hop off the bike by 'leaning' on the taxi - the driver went ballistic when he got out and started all kinds of shouting - I was thanking my luck still to be in one piece so was in a sort of stunned silence!

Justice, anyway, was done when the intended fare headed off to get another taxi (hopefully it was an airport job) - Mr Shouty Taxidriver then blamed me for that!

Cycling along D'Ollier St a couple of years ago, busses parked on the inside lane, I'm in the one next to it. A taxi tried to squeeze past me, putting me between a bus and his vehicle. He actually grazed me, didn't knock me over or unbalance me, at that moment I slapped the side of his car and he drove off. Both of us stopped at the lights a few metres up and he wound down his window and said if I hit his his taxi again he'd get out of it.
I then showed him my arm where the dirt from his car had rubbed off on me and shouted at him to get out of his f*cking car at which point he drove off through the red.

Not my proudest moment, but I'm not sure you can think straight in those situations. Looking back at it we were right beside Pearse St. Garda Station and I should have just walked in and made a complaint, but instead I stood in the road and shouted at him.

I was on a Dublin Bike at the time and I just walked it to the station on Townsend St and walked the rest of the way as I was a ball of nervous energy.

CramCycle

Trent Houseboat wrote: »

I was on a Dublin Bike at the time and I just walked it to the station on Townsend St and walked the rest of the way as I was a ball of nervous energy.

I have had this in the past, the feeling (I guess) to be a cross between a panic attack and a heart attack.

Wishbone Ash

I also shout "careful" in a loud voice. I very rarely get into debates with motorists. I prefer to raise my hand, palm upwards, in exacerbation with a slow shake of the head. Occasionally I give the "look".

There's too many "shouty" cyclists out there who just come across as an arrogant angry group to those who don't know the full facts.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Once I thumped on the rear window of a jeep that was blocking a cycle lane....

That's the sort of behaviour that gives the rest of us a bad name. When you are driving, do you thump other vehicles if they are in your way?

Dinging

Heading out of town on the Clonskeagh road one evening in a bit if a commuter race with another cyclist a driver pulling out of a side road has a near miss with the cyclist in front of me, luckily for me I was second but was catching up with him, I promise :-). The cyclist in front of me gestures with his hand alerting me and the driver to the danger. Instead of stopping the car driver keeps moving out and I had to stop directly in front of him as there was traffic coming up on my right. There is also a set of pedestrian lights that had just turned red at the entrance to Clonskeagh hospital so he is blocking me and I am blocking him and we are both blocking the traffic, the lights are red and so am I in no hurry now. His windows was down and he mumbles "f**king cyclists blaa blaa blaa". I lost it. I told him to at the top of my voice to "F**K OFF, MOVE BACK, MOVE BACK". He was not moving and neither was I, the driver started shouting and now threats were being exchanged, it was getting heated and neither of us were backing down. Drivers behind me had started beeping etc, stand off last for say 15 - 20 seconds, felt like longer. It was then the blue hue from the flashing lights of a marked garda car that had stopped at the opposite side of the pedestrian lights that caught my attention and then the siren was turned on. We were busted. Three guards got out, the driver of the garda car says he had basically seen everything that has just happened. I explained what happened, he nodded in agreement. The car driver explained what happened, the guards were having none of it The driver got a stern talking to, reg taken, name etc. I got a talking to also but more some friendly advice. The garda said he appreciates my frustration of cycling in Dublin but I cannot get in shouting matches with drivers. He also warned me that if I do getting into shouting matches that I should not use my bike or myself to stop drivers progressing as I could get into trouble with the law and possibly squashed by driver who could say they felt threatened. It was not my finest moment but I am reformed that was 3 years ago now and I have not had a run in with a driver since on my daily commute, I put this down to attitude and proper road positioning.

Iwannahurl

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Now this is the kind of thing the RSA was highlighting.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That's the sort of behaviour that gives the rest of us a bad name. When you are driving, do you thump other vehicles if they are in your way?

Perhaps the RSA should be highlighting the frustration (or even fear in some circumstances) induced by the manner in which motorised vehicles dominate not just the roads but the footpaths and cycle lanes as well.

On those occasions when I am driving, and when the need clearly arises, I would use the car horn. Bicycles are not similarly equipped, and cyclists/pedestrians are not cocooned in metal cages with added sound-proofing.

How would you go about getting the attention of the driver of a large vehicle in such a situation? How do you get the attention of cyclists and pedestrians when you are driving?


.

Chips Lovell

I wouldn't. I'm not a Guard, so I've no authority to go around directing other road users.

Iwannahurl

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I wouldn't. I'm not a Guard, so I've no authority to go around directing other road users.

Is using a car horn "directing other road users"?

Lumen

There are just so many cases where people seem to deliberately induce these sorts of incidents, or at least decline to avoid them.

This morning I saw a cyclist jump a red light in the straight-on bit of a T-junction just before the road kicked up over a humpback bridge.

Driver got a green light, accelerated through the right turn into conflict with the slowing cyclist.

Cue much beeping of horn and aggressiveness (tailgating, waving, shouting) by driver annoyed at the RLJ and being held up.

Over the crest cyclist takes a swipe (and has a bit of a shout) at the car as it overtakes, then proceeds to RLJ his way through every subsequent junction into town.

Totally avoidable by both parties. **** the both of them.

Chips Lovell

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is using a car horn "directing other road users"?

If it's being used in a similar fashion, yes.

Car horn should only be used to alert someone to oncoming danger.

Iwannahurl

Lumen wrote: »

There are just so many cases where people seem to deliberately induce these sorts of incidents, or at least decline to avoid them.

Deliberate provocation is one thing, but "declining to avoid" conflict is a bit more ramified imo.

Should cyclists (and pedestrians, and bus users) just go meekly and avoid asserting their rights or challenging unsafe, illegal or inconsiderate behaviour when they encounter it?

It's not the way it works in other countries, I have found. Just try wandering in a Danish or Dutch cycle lane, for example, or "jay-walking" in Germany.

In this country we seem to have a culture of either shutting up and putting up, punctuated with occasional bouts of road rage.

seamus

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is using a car horn "directing other road users"?

Using a horn
Only use a horn to:
- warn other road users of on-coming danger, or
- make them aware of your presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary.

If a vehicle is stopped and blocking you, whether that be on a bike or in a car, you don't really have any authority to "alert" them to this, either by beeping or banging on the vehicle, because they do not present a danger to you, there is no safety concern.

Lumen

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Deliberate provocation is one thing, but "declining to avoid" conflict is a bit more ramified imo.

Should cyclists (and pedestrians, and bus users) just go meekly and avoid asserting their rights or challenging unsafe, illegal or inconsiderate behaviour when they encounter it?

In this case I'm talking specifically about the car driver who declined to avoid conflict by "asserting his right" to proceed when the light turned green (and thus bring himself into conflict with the RLJer).

Are you saying that the motorist should just meekly sit behind the law-breaking cretin or instead challenge his unsafe, illegal AND inconsiderate behaviour?

Iwannahurl

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If it's being used in a similar fashion, yes.

Car horn should only be used to alert someone to oncoming danger.

From the RoTR (emphasis added by me):

Only use a horn to warn other road users of on-coming danger, or make them aware of your presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary.

It is advisable to drive your vehicle in a defensive manner, be prepared to stop, sound the horn and brake. Always expect the unexpected.

Aggressive driving is inconsiderate, stupid driving. It can involve speeding, tailgating (driving too close behind another vehicle), failing to use an indicator for lane changes, recklessly weaving in and out of traffic and over-use of a horn or flashing headlights.

Do not leave any room for doubt. If you see school children, particularly young children, you may use your horn to let them know you’re there.

How do we cyclists (and pedestrians) warn the occupants of sound-insulated metal boxes of on-coming danger, make them aware of our presence for safety reasons when reasonably necessary, and let them know we're there without leaving any room for doubt?

Chips Lovell

Unlike monument's example, there was no impending hazard in your situation. You could have simply gone around the car in the lane but instead you went looking for a row, which is precisely the kind of aggressive behaviour the RSA was talking about.

You have no "rights to assert" since you have no right under law to go around policing other road users.

Iwannahurl

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

You could have simply gone around the car in the lane

You have no "rights to assert"

How do you know?

seamus wrote: »

If a vehicle is stopped and blocking you, whether that be on a bike or in a car, you don't really have any authority to "alert" them to this, either by beeping or banging on the vehicle, because they do not present a danger to you, there is no safety concern.

In the situation I mentioned earlier, avoiding the obstruction would have required overtaking on the right, against the flow of fast-moving traffic (some of them speeding, in fact). That's a safety concern.

mathepac

monument wrote: »

... this kind of thing shapes my perspective of the RSA advise on cyclists shouting which is listed above keep away from left turning trucks! http://www.rsa.ie/en/rsa/pedestrians-and-cyclists/cycling-safety/

The advice lacks all context of why a cyclist would and in many cases should shout at motorists. I'm an advocate for having and using a bell, but sometimes shouting is just quicker and more effective. ...

Read the RSA advice again.

monument

mathepac wrote: »

Read the RSA advice again.

Just checked it. It does not seem to have changed since yeasterday.

Have you read all of the thread?

seamus wrote: »

If a vehicle is stopped and blocking you, whether that be on a bike or in a car, you don't really have any authority to "alert" them to this, either by beeping or banging on the vehicle, because they do not present a danger to you, there is no safety concern.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Unlike monument's example, there was no impending hazard in your situation. You could have simply gone around the car in the lane but instead you went looking for a row, which is precisely the kind of aggressive behaviour the RSA was talking about.

You have no "rights to assert" since you have no right under law to go around policing other road users.

Not so sure about that. There is allowances under law to take some action in some cases - I'm not advocating such for traffic rules, but it has been proven lawful for example to do damage to aircraft to aid people in other countries.

Knocking on a car without doing damage does not seem to be much compared to that.

Again it should be remembered that some people have extreme reaction when their car is touched. I'd avoid doing so at nealy all costs.

Iwannahurl

monument wrote: »

There is allowances under law to take some action in some cases - I'm not advocating such for traffic rules, but it has been proven lawful for example to do damage to aircraft to aid people in other countries.

Knocking on a car without doing damage does not seem to be much compared to that.

Again it should be remembered that some people have extreme reaction when their car is touched. I'd avoid doing so at nealy all costs.

At the heart of this, imo, is a cultural attitude that the car is king and motorists are lords of all they survey.

A motorist overtook me dangerously on a narrow road some years ago, clipping me with her wing mirror in the process. I caught up with her at the traffic lights (a common situation, ie drivers racing past cyclists only to be reunited at the next hold-up) and non-aggressively, as I recall, pointed out to her that her car had touched me as she passed and that she should take more care when overtaking. Her response was to sneer at my inarticulate description of the incident (I was flustered and a bit out of breath) and to ask dismissively "where's your helmet?" as if not wearing one diminished my standing even further.

Turn the tables and consider a scenario in which a pedestrian or cyclist clips the door or wing mirror of a car. It's not even a level playing field in this country, whereas cyclists have much greater standing, culturally and legally, in places such as Denmark and the Netherlands. I believe that even in France now motorists are automatically at fault if they strike a cyclist.

Snickers Man

I think shouting by cyclists should be governed by the same etiquette, and indeed rules, that govern correct use of a horn by motorists. A working horn is a statutory requirement for a road worthy motor vehicle, but its incorrect use is strictly an offence.

My driving instructor (fadó fadó) summarised correct use of the horn most pithily as "An audible warning of approach, not an audible means of reproach."

Ditto for the cyclist's lungs and vocal chords.

Examples:

Shouting "look out" at the top of my voice at two gossiping girlies who step out into the road in front of me without looking to see that I am bearing down on them. Correct use of voice.

Shouting "Watch where you're going you stoopid gee bags!" over my shoulder as I disappear into the distance. Incorrect use of voice. And one that I never practice.

Any more.

Chips Lovell

Blasting someone out of it with a horn is equally as aggressive as banging on their car. So I don't think it's a case of car is king.

In short, if you'd done the same thing in your car, you'd still be in the wrong.