Beginning School at just four?

theLuggage

Quick question for parents of school-going children at all stages.

Looking at our school's admission policy we seem to have the option of sending our girl to school in the year when she'll have just turned 4 (assuming they have the space). She will only turn 5 at the very start of Senior Infants so counting it along she'll start secondary just turned 12, doing her Junior Cert at 14 and her Leaving Cert (doing TY) at 17! She'll only turn 18 in her first her in college/work or whatever she's at after school. :eek:

Do you think it's very young to start? Has anyone started their child that young and how did it turn out? Any advice or thoughts?

Thanks

Midnight Sundance

Speaking from a teacher's point of view, there's a big difference between most 4 and 5 year olds. I do recognise that some 4 year olds are ready for school and some 5 year olds are still not ready, but I find that 5 year old jun inf are usually more socially developed and have better fine motor skills etc.
I also feel that children are only small for such a short period of time and once they start school we are always encouraging them to grow up .
Personally I'd hold her off until she is five ( from speaking to other teachers who are parents , most of them wait until the child is five)

Call Me Jimmy

I started at 4 years of age and it was grand, got my degree there in the summer!

liliq

I'd tend to wait til 5, but my friend started her girl last year at 4 and she's doing great. She's always been very social and very good with communicating though which I think makes the a difference.
My son I couldn't imagine being ready at 4.
I think the extra years makes it a bit easier for them to be cooped up for the few hours, whereas when they're younger they can't control their energy as easily.

Chattastrophe!

Myself and three of my siblings started when we were just turned four (September birthdays.)

I never had any problems. I was always youngest in my class, but it never bothered me, and didn't hold me back academically. Myself and my sister both did Transition Year, so we were just turning 18 starting college. My brother didn't, so he was seventeen for all of first year - a pain in the ass not being able to go out with his friends, but he did get great results that year! :pac:

My other brother was just not mature enough, and was always a little behind the rest of his class, so he ended up repeating first class. No big deal - he was happy to do it, and even with that he still wasn't the oldest in his class.

It really depends on the child in question. It's not fair on the teacher to have a child in the class who's just not ready to be there. Having said that, if a child is ready, I see no point in holding them back any longer than you have to.

theLuggage

Thanks for all the feedback. I would also have thought if they're ready to go for it but heard a comment from a parent today regretting starting their child early. Their child is a teenager now and they feel is too young for where she is in school, with friends etc. Panicked a bit at that because even if you think they're grand to go at 4 you're not guaranteed it will keep working out that way. But I guess that's the case with everything, you never know how it'll turn out for any of them :-)

Kettleson

A lot of it is down to the child. Works for some, others not so good. But what's the worst that can happen? Personally I'd wait to 5 as I think that the longer spent at home with mum or dad or both, so much the better. But some kids are ready at 4 others not. And if in a crèche, whats the difference?

Don't listen to the regretters too much. Listen to your own mind and reasoning and your own understanding of your child.

Chocolate fiend

I would wait, they are in education long enough. Imagine her heading off to a different city at just turned 18 to go to College. Does the school really not have a cut off date for ages on it's admission policy?

How Strange

If she's just turning four then I'd wait. It's not just when she starts school that you have to consider but also when she's in secondary school and up to a year younger than her peers.

I was 4.5 starting and I was always the youngest for everything.

ash23

I would say wait. My daughter was 4 yrs 7 months so she was fine.
I started school late in the school year on my fourth birthday. So I was 11 going into secondary (for a few weeks) and I did my LC at 16. I started university a few weeks before I turned 17.

At the time I was pig headed and adamant that I was able for it even though my parents wanted me to wait a year before going to uni. Academically I was well able. I was bright, one of the top in the class all through school and found the coursework no problem. Flew through my exams and got above and beyond the points I needed for uni.
But moving out of home, getting a job, paying bills, socialising and drinking.....I was only just gone 17 and in the adult world.
I dropped out of college after 2nd year and got pregnant at 19 - I just wasn't able to handle everything at that age.

Now it worked out for me, I had my child, copped on and have a good job, finished my qualifications (aged 30 lol) and I don't regret a thing about how my life turned out. But I just think long term, even if the child is academically able for an early start in school, socially it can cause issues. For me those problems didn't start until I was finished school and there had been no reason to think that there would have been an issue throughout all my school years but I just wasn't ready for college at 16/17.

January

I'd wait also. My eldest started at 4yrs 9 months and is doing great and my middle child will be starting at 4yrs 6 months. My youngest has an October birthday and because of school cut off she misses going to school the year she turns four. To be honest I'm delighted, I think she'd be too young at just gone 4. She'll do her pre-school year that year instead and head into Junior Infants at 4yrs 11 months.

Ah_Yeah

I started school on my fourth birthday in September - I was a smart child and very independent, and my parents felt that I was more than ready to start school. The benefit from the child's point of view (in my personal experience) is that time is even more on your side. I had my degree at the age of 21 and have been working full time for 3 years already, enabling me to have a relatively successful career at the age of just 24.

It really depends on your child - if you feel she is ready, then there is no reason why she shouldn't start

Foodle

Children born from June 1 on should have to wait the extra year.

Gonzp

I think that you have to look at the bigger picture here... Its not about the immediate, its about the future... Could you imagine your child just turning twelve and heading into secondary school, I think that's far too young and its also difficult to cope socially let alone academically.. Alot of people look at school as childcare and that should n't be the case. Children go to school to be educated not to be looked after. I think you should keep her till she's five, then you can send her to school with the knowledge that you are giving her the best chance to progress properly both academically and socially, she will mature at the proper rate and never be in the position that she will be playing catch up with the rest of her peers. I have friends that sent children to school the minute they turned four because it saved them childcare costs, and now they are in the position that their children are completing their leaving cert at 16... not good... Short term pain for long term gain I reckon...

Ah_Yeah

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

I started school on my fourth birthday in September - I was a smart child and very independent, and my parents felt that I was more than ready to start school. The benefit from the child's point of view (in my personal experience) is that time is even more on your side. I had my degree at the age of 21 and have been working full time for 3 years already, enabling me to have a relatively successful career at the age of just 24.

It really depends on your child - if you feel she is ready, then there is no reason why she shouldn't start

Couldn't agree more
If she's ready now, then get her going now. She can always do transition year, take a year out before uni, etc. No point holding her back if she's well able for it because of might bes

Gambas

Foodle wrote: »

Children born from June 1 on should have to wait the extra year.

That's probably a decent cut off date IMO, but there has to be room for exceptions.

As for the OP, I'd send her daughter if she feels she is ready, and if she finds it a little bit beyond her then she can easily repeat either junior or senior infants which is quite common. Better that than effectively 'repeating' a year in preschool, which would be fairly worthless and probably frustrating to her.

How Strange

Is it still the done hing to repeat a year? I thought most schools discouraged it as a general rule and it'd really only done now when a child is genuinely struggling. I know when I was in school it was quite normal to start them young and do junior or senior infants twice.

Gambas

Gambas wrote: »

That's probably a decent cut off date IMO, but there has to be room for exceptions.

As for the OP, I'd send her daughter if she feels she is ready, and if she finds it a little bit beyond her then she can easily repeat either junior or senior infants which is quite common. Better that than effectively 'repeating' a year in preschool, which would be fairly worthless and probably frustrating to her.

In response to this and the early comment around "what is the worst that can happen?" - I would be careful about assuming that repeating a year is no big deal to a young child.

Of course there will be people who did repeat and didn't care. But there are also those who effectively feel they are labelled as a failure, 'not clever enough' to move on to the next class, behind everyone else etc. That sort of experience can stick with a child.

Personally, I would wait. Isn't it better for your child to be the one who is experiencing success, has a positive attitude to school, someone the other kids look up to because they are ahead of them, etc etc?

There's also no real evidence that starting early helps in any significant way. Isn't it Finland where they don't teach children to read until they are seven?! And it doesn't do them any harm.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

There's also no real evidence that starting early helps in any significant way. Isn't it Finland where they don't teach children to read until they are seven?! And it doesn't do them any harm.

Formal education yes. Keeping books away from them until then and teaching them it's a chore to be avoided, no

Ah_Yeah

Children are like sponges - the earlier they start learning the better. Not saying this means the child should start school at 4 but I see no reason why learning should be held back if the child is ready.

Ah_Yeah

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

Children are like sponges - the earlier they start learning the better. Not saying this means the child should start school at 4 but I see no reason why learning should be held back if the child is ready.

Yes but the key phrase is 'if the child is ready' isn't it?

Don't agree with the sponge analogy either. Sponges can't decide they don't like absorbing water and actively seek ways to avoid it. Children can learn to hate school, reading and learning if their experiences are not positive.

Ah_Yeah

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the key phrase is 'if the child is ready' isn't it?

Don't agree with the sponge analogy either. Sponges can't decide they don't like absorbing water and actively seek ways to avoid it. Children can learn to hate school, reading and learning if their experiences are not positive.

Yes - that's exactly what most people on this thread have been saying?

Children can learn to hate school when they are 10, 14, or 16 too. That isn't unique to starting early.

Ah_Yeah

Ah_Yeah wrote: »

Yes - that's exactly what most people on this thread have been saying?

Children can learn to hate school when they are 10, 14, or 16 too. That isn't unique to starting early.

My point is that it's a subjective judgement, and there is no more subjective judgement in the world than a parent's judgement about their child.

I am sure most primary teachers would recommend waiting, and my advice was simply to caution against the 'what's the worst thing that can happen' argument. The worst thing that can happen is the child doesn't like going to school and feels like a failure.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the key phrase is 'if the child is ready' isn't it?

Don't agree with the sponge analogy either. Sponges can't decide they don't like absorbing water and actively seek ways to avoid it. Children can learn to hate school, reading and learning if their experiences are not positive.

She was talking about learning and school separately

paddymc1

Out of our 4 girls our 1st went when she was 4.2 but was well able for it and we also took advise through playscholl on her development test they do to make sure they are ready and they said yes for sure. She would have got bored if left for another year and this also could cause problems to in long term, really depends on the child. Our next 2 girls where just going 4.6 & 4.9 before starting and that was ok for them as they both would not have been ready like our 1st child. Our 4th who is only 2 now will be 4.9 and judging at her now she be well ready like her big sister. It really depends on the child and each one is different, our second one could of been held off another year but has come on leaps and bounds in last year. Girls usually more ready than the boys. As others have posted got to look at long term to, as in secondry will they be able, do they need do TR year, ours will it means they will not be as young when (fingers crossed) they go to college and they should be able to cope with all that is ahead of them. Think the teacher who posted here has good advise..

Gambas

Deleted User wrote: »

In response to this and the early comment around "what is the worst that can happen?" - I would be careful about assuming that repeating a year is no big deal to a young child.

Of course there will be people who did repeat and didn't care. But there are also those who effectively feel they are labelled as a failure, 'not clever enough' to move on to the next class, behind everyone else etc. That sort of experience can stick with a child.

In junior and senior infants those concepts don't apply.

Personally, I would wait. Isn't it better for your child to be the one who is experiencing success, has a positive attitude to school, someone the other kids look up to because they are ahead of them, etc etc?

This is where this theory falls down. Everyone can't be the eldest in their class. If everyone holds their child back as long as possible you end up back to square one. The weaker kids end up behind the more capable ones once again because they too have been held back. You can only give your child that advantage at the expense of another child; it is a zero sum game.

There's also no real evidence that starting early helps in any significant way. Isn't it Finland where they don't teach children to read until they are seven?! And it doesn't do them any harm.

'Starting' implies that there is no education prior to junior infants, or prior to 7 years old in Finland. In neither case is it true. In Ireland, from what I can see anyway, the quality of education in 'school' is much better than the quality in preschool. I'm sure there are plenty of examples to the contrary, but that it a reasonable generalisation.

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

She was talking about learning and school separately

You can't stop a child learning.

I wonder what you mean by learning, and what you mean by starting learning early?

Gambas

Gambas wrote: »

In junior and senior infants those concepts don't apply.

??

You either move on to the next class with your friends or you don't. Children are not stupid, they know what is going on in that situation.

Foodle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

??

You either move on to the next class with your friends or you don't. Children are not stupid, they know what is going on in that situation.

Of course it applies !!!

Ah_Yeah

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't stop a child learning.

I wonder what you mean by learning, and what you mean by starting learning early?

I thought it would have been self explanatory - by teaching your child you are helping them to learn early. The later you leave it to teach a child to read (in an example provided earlier), the longer the child has not learned to read .

Anyway, I won't debate further on this with you as it is pointless.

OP, my opinion is that if the child is ready and capable of starting this year - go for it. Anyone that is capable and ready that has started early has only seen benefits from it. If you child is not capable and ready, then don't do it as they won't benefit from the extra year.

Gambas

Deleted User wrote: »

??

You either move on to the next class with your friends or you don't. Children are not stupid, they know what is going on in that situation.

They don't see themselves as 'failures' at 5 years of age. Unless someone decides to make them feel that way. In most schools they end up being split from their friends anyway because the classes are mixed from one year to the next and their friends change from one year to the next.

lazygal

It is not as easy to keep a child back/repeat a year as it was when I was in school (80s/90s). Nowadays there must be a very compelling reason to repeat and it can be very difficult to get a school to agree unless there are sound reasons.

I am waiting until my child is five to send her to school. I think four is early to start. Its not all about social and academic ability now, I'm thinking of the age she'll be doing the leaving cert, going to college, being able to go on nights out with her peer group and entering the workforce. I know of many people who felt they sent their child too soon, but I don't know anyone who regretted sending them a year after they might have be eligible to go.


Children also aren't unselfaware. They will know when they are struggling and in over their heads. I've seen this myself when I was a Montessori teacher. I don't understand the rush to start into primary school myself.

Gambas

Gambas wrote: »

They don't see themselves as 'failures' at 5 years of age. Unless someone decides to make them feel that way. In most schools they end up being split from their friends anyway because the classes are mixed from one year to the next and their friends change from one year to the next.

I don't know of any school that does this, and in single stream schools it isn't an option anyway.

"Their friends change from one year to the next"?

Sorry but it doesn't sound like you know much about either children or the irish education system

Gambas

So you don't think that children change friends from one year to the next in early primary school, and you know of no school that mixes the classes from year to year.

And yet you feel the need to tell me that I don't know much about children or the Irish education system.

I think that'll do for now.

lazygal

Gambas wrote: »

So you don't think that children change friends from one year to the next in early primary school, and you know of no school that mixes the classes from year to year.

And yet you feel the need to tell me that I don't know much about children or the Irish education system.

I think that'll do for now.

I don't know any school that mixes classes every year. The two schools closest to us either keep the same classes until third,then mix and keep the same till sixth, and the other has only one class of each year so mixing isn't possible. This is in Dublin.

TouchingVirus

I started school having just turned four in August. I had no option to do transition year and was never kept back so I did my Leaving Cert at 16 and would have started college having just gone 17. I chose to take a year out after school instead. I fancied working to try make a bit of money to survive the two years of college until my industrial placement. There was an element of being 17 and not getting into pubs/clubs too. When I eventually arrived at 18 I found quite a few people had landed into college at 17 and some who were still 17 themselves and going in to second year, turning 18 in late September. None of them regretted the decision to start "early" at all.

It's better to give you children a choice of a gap year at the late stage of their schooling than forcing them to have one at the start just so they'll fit the "18 & College" or "13 & Secondary" thing. If they are capable at 4 to go and enjoy school then send them in. When I have kids I'll be sending them to school as soon as they're ready, and if it's at just gone 4 then so be it

rsl1976

My son just turned 18 and is in 6th year and i'm really struggling with getting him to stay in school as he thinks he is too old. I would have prefered him to start school at 4 instead of nearer 5. I myself would have just turned 4 in the july and never felt it was an issue.

Foodle

rsl1976 wrote: »

My son just turned 18 and is in 6th year and i'm really struggling with getting him to stay in school as he thinks he is too old. I would have prefered him to start school at 4 instead of nearer 5. I myself would have just turned 4 in the july and never felt it was an issue.

I would say there is more to his wanting away from school than just his age tbf

rsl1976

Foodle wrote: »

I would say there is more to his wanting away from school than just his age tbf

Oh i agree. Its just harder to argue with him now that he is 18:-)

clairefontaine

theLuggage wrote: »

Quick question for parents of school-going children at all stages.

Looking at our school's admission policy we seem to have the option of sending our girl to school in the year when she'll have just turned 4 (assuming they have the space). She will only turn 5 at the very start of Senior Infants so counting it along she'll start secondary just turned 12, doing her Junior Cert at 14 and her Leaving Cert (doing TY) at 17! She'll only turn 18 in her first her in college/work or whatever she's at after school. :eek:

Do you think it's very young to start? Has anyone started their child that young and how did it turn out? Any advice or thoughts?

Thanks

Can she tie her own shoe laces? Zip up her coat? Hang up her coat? Fully aware of toilet protocols?

Can she hold her own with stronger, bigger personalities?

Also - this will sound odd but- how tall/big is she? Is she tall and big for her age?

LegacyUser

I would wait and send you child to school at 5. I was chatting to a number of people I know about this.
I have been chatting to various people in regards to sending a child to school at 4 or 5.

One lady I know has a number of children of her own. She has worked as sna in a small school for 15 years plus. Over this period of time she has seen/had experience with a number of children. She told me that she sees a big difference in a child at 4 and one of 5.
She told me that most 4 year old's find it harder than at 5 and she told me this is true of boys.

Another couple I know decided not to send there child to school until the child was 5.9.
There child was not ready from a maturity point of view until this age but are now doing well and is happy in school.
Another couple they know sent there son to school aged 4. He found school hard since he started, is getting help with reading/writing and does not like school. They told my friends that is would have been better to send him at 5 as he would be coping much better now.

I know now it is very hard to keep a child back in school. Also with the cut in the number of teachers class sizes have got bigger so it is harder to spot if a child has problems or finding school hard going.
If you send a child to school when they are not ready your putting them into a situation they can't cope with. They can find it hard to make friends and deal with the demands of school. Within a few years they may have problems in regards to keeping up with the rest of the class or be troublesome at school/home due to this.
It they find school hard going they are not going to be happy in school or enjoy learning or doing home work.
If a child starts school at 5 they are more ready for it and will be happier there long term.

LegacyUser

I am starting my daughter at 5. Her birthday is in May.

I started at 4 myself. I wasnt ready. My mother knew I wasnt ready but felt it was the done thing to send at four regardless. My birthday was in March so I wasn't (on paper) even a very young four! But I was the second youngest and the second smartest of 26 kids in the class. I know this because we had to do one of those standardized test things and I had to stand at the top of the class with another girl who was over a year older than me and have the teacher explain that I only got the highest score because I scored higher FOR MY AGE.
Anyway academically I was "well able" but socially I just could not keep up. I was also taller than most other girls so it wasn't obvious that I was one of the babies of the class ! I just always felt behind in that way I couldnt keep up with what was "cool" etc or even silly things like still believing in Santa and not knowing about sex and periods etc. I'd lash out in stupid ways then.
Now I'll fully admit I was very immature for my age on top of that and I don't know is coz Im a middle child too but I always felt in a rush to grow up - like I couldnt just enjoy being 7 I had to behave closer to 9 , that kind of thing. Transition year sorted me out but I wont lie I do wonder would my school days have been happier if I'd been older. Who knows

My brother also went at 4 and while he didn't struggle as obviously as I did he was also youngest and smartest and biggest in the class and just didnt know how to hold his own. There was no TY in his school so he was out at 17 and wasnt ready.
Maybe its our DNA maybe its the way our parents brought us up I dont know. There were of course other factors too But I'm waiting with my kid I just cant stick the thought of her going through the same things I did.

Lucyfur

My niece will turn 4 at the end of July and will be starting school in September. She has told her mum she'll be going and her poor mum is devastated :pac: She's extremely bright, has above average gross and fine motor skills, can dress herself, can share, can most certainly stand up for herself and is extremely independent. I think it depends on the child. My own son was 5 and even by then he wasn't ready from a social point of view.

lazygal

I wouldn't let a four year old decide on when he or she starts school, that's a decision the parents make.


How does a four year old decide on that anyway?!

Lucyfur

lazygal wrote: »

I wouldn't let a four year old decide on when he or she starts school, that's a decision the parents make.


How does a four year old decide on that anyway?!

She sees her siblings going and wants to go too.

lazygal

Lucyfur wrote: »

She sees her siblings going and wants to go too.

Still begs the question, who's in charge-the parents or the child? If she's dictating at four what'll she be like at 14?

Lucyfur

lazygal wrote: »

Still begs the question, who's in charge-the parents or the child? If she's dictating at four what'll she be like at 14?

Huh?

The child wants to go to school, is happy to go to school and it more than ready to go to school. She's not ''dictating''. I'd be delighted to have a child so eager to learn!

angelfire9

My now 12 year old started secondary school last September she was 4 starting primary her birthday is in August and while she is almost 2 years younger than some of her classmates she is not the youngest in school
Being tall & well built probably helps its not like she stands out as the baby of he year
She has never struggled academically though there was some teasing in primary as she was so much younger than her classmates
She's loving school though and is happy
Will do her Jnr Cert aged 14 will do TY and therefore sit LC @ 17 but with an August birthday will be 18 for college

My youngest turned three at Christmas
I will be sending her to school aged 4 years 9 months (September 2015) and am confident she will be fine

lazygal

Lucyfur wrote: »

Huh?

The child wants to go to school, is happy to go to school and it more than ready to go to school. She's not ''dictating''. I'd be delighted to have a child so eager to learn!

You said the child decided but the mother is devastated, so she's not happy with the decision. I find it bizarre that a child of four decides she's going to school and the parents just let her decide, it seems a very strange situation. Just because a chills thinks he or she is ready for something doesn't mean you just let them off to do it.

Lucyfur

lazygal wrote: »

You said the child decided but the mother is devastated, so she's not happy with the decision. I find it bizarre that a child of four decides she's going to school and the parents just let her decide, it seems a very strange situation. Just because a chills thinks he or she is ready for something doesn't mean you just let them off to do it.

She's devastated cos her second youngest wants to go to school instead of staying at home with her!

Anyway, moving on...

paperclip2

My daughter started 3 weeks after her fourth birthday and flew through school, loved it, did very well, no academic or social problems. I knew she was well ready for it when I sent her.

My son's birthday is in April so he could have started at 4 years and 4 months but I knew he wasn't ready so kept him out till the Sept after he turned 5. It was the right decision as he really needed that extra year in playschool. It definitely helped him settle into school more easily.

Its really down to the child and you know your own best. Some are ready at four, some might need to be six.