Where does English Test Cricket go from here?

y0ssar1an22

Gillespy wrote: »

Given time Lehman would have done the same thing. Lehman doesn't suffer fools either, don't let his jokey personality fool you. KP isn't a victim in this, despite what his friends in the media say. If you find yourself feeling sorry for him, listen to Bob Willis again.

Your right about Lehman, but his approach I think would be more suited to a KP type character - I would think DL would actually listen to KP's thoughts.

KP has done some pretty foolish things in the past, but I thought that was forgiven/forgotten.

The way this is coming across to me is that KP probably challenged the $hit decisions/tactics of Flower/Cook (correctly IMO), and they couldn't handle it so got rid of him.

TrueDub

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

The way this is coming across to me is that KP probably challenged the $hit decisions/tactics of Flower/Cook (correctly IMO), and they couldn't handle it so got rid of him.

Or his approach to the game and the team is not what they want, so rather than allow him dilute the approach, they've called time on his involvement.

Or somewhere in between.

Beasty

I suspect Cook may have had something to do with the KP announcement. Having KP in the dressing room is potentially a bit intimidating for a relatively inexperienced captain. That may also help explain his early departure from Australia, as I'm sure he wanted to have some discussion with the powers that be before any announcements were made on the futures of the likes of Flower (and now of course KP).

HonalD

Does he want to live over here for a while. I'm sure we can wait the required time in order to add him to our squad.

kryogen

Good riddance tbh

Never hidden my feelings on KP, from the limited personal knowledge I have of him, and what a couple of teammates have said about him I just dislike him. He is a super player, still, when he wants but he was toxic to that dressing room. He has shown no leadership skills at all this tour of Australia and I dont buy any of this he challenged **** decisions so they got rid, he has caused so much trouble in his England career and they had tolerated it up to that point.

Cook was instrumental in him coming back after he disgraced himself yet again by slagging off his own captain to his home countrymen. For him to turn on him would have taken something more then KP just being his usual self tbh, I doubt the details will come out for a long time but where there is a book deal there is a way and Im sure both sides will tell their tale at some stage.

It leaves England light in terms of senior batsmen and for that reason I hope Morgan is given another go, nothing to lose tbh and he is a good captain himself, would be a good sounding board for Cook, he can also obviously take the attack to the bowlers which is something that will be vital now in KP's absence.

I like the move overall (including Flower going) clean slate, almost, after a disaster and a fresh start to build on. Of course, England being England they will probably negate it by giving Giles the job instead of getting in some outside blood, a fresh approach and some new ideas.

wicorthered

Big call to get rid of your best player. As many have pointed out, KP wasn't seen as unmanageable when England were winning. Easy scapegoat for an awful tour? I think the fact Giles was involved proves he'll replace Flower. Poor call IMO.

What'll be the XI for Englands first test of the summer now? I think Morgan will find himself the big winner in this. I predict

Cook
Root
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Stokes
Butler
Borthwick
Broad
Onions
Anderson

Rjd2

Why do people keep talking about Morgan as a test player? he failed last time and his four day record when he plays which is rare is poor.

he will be in the IPL this year so he will miss a lot of four day games while hs rivals, Ali, Root, Ballance, Taylor and even Bairstow will be scoring runs for their respective counties.

Don't we remember yuvraj Singh folks? Some peeps are guns in limited overs but struggle in test cricket, as George Bailey will agree.

On KP, no matter if you love or hate him the fact is he is getting Piers Morgan to fight his battles by leaking him information which is disgraceful. For that alone, good riddance.:mad:

Gillespy

Hopefully Trott will return at some stage, arguably more important than Pietersen. Matt Prior isn't finished either but Buttler, much like Morgan is too talented to keep out of the team. Jordan will be in with a shout too. Root needs runs.

Rjd2

Jordan will be the third seamer I reckon, did excellently for Sussex last year in four day cricket. It will be a shootout between Buttler and Prior in the county season for the wicket keeper position.

Compton may have a chance to return as well, harshly dropped.

Outsider may be Andy lees, lots of hype about him and scored a century for the Lions today.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/695965.html

djimi

Rjd2 wrote: »

Why do people keep talking about Morgan as a test player? he failed last time and his four day record when he plays which is rare is poor.

he will be in the IPL this year so he will miss a lot of four day games while hs rivals, Ali, Root, Ballance, Taylor and even Bairstow will be scoring runs for their respective counties.

Don't we remember yuvraj Singh folks? Some peeps are guns in limited overs but struggle in test cricket, as George Bailey will agree.

I guess its because he has shown (and continues to show) that he has the temperament to do the job at international level, albeit in ODI format, and quite frankly very few of the new batsman introduced into the test side in recent times have looked like they are a star in the making.

Morgan failed at test level the last time because he had a technical flaw in his game (with that ridiculous trigger movement he had that made him an easy target), but that has been ironed out now, so Id be inclined to give him another shot. At this point that they dont have a lot to lose; if it doesnt work out then so be it, but given a choice Id sooner see Morgan tried before someone like Bairstow.

djimi

I was about to ask what on earth Liam Plunkett was doing playing for the Lions until I realised that he is only 28 :eek: Could have sworn he was about 5 years older than that!

Varun Chopra could be another interesting one if he could find some consistency. He is capable of making big runs at county level, but he is very hit and miss. He is nearly 27, so Im not sure that time is on his side.

Rjd2

djimi wrote: »

I guess its because he has shown (and continues to show) that he has the temperament to do the job at international level, albeit in ODI format, and quite frankly very few of the new batsman introduced into the test side in recent times have looked like they are a star in the making.

Morgan failed at test level the last time because he had a technical flaw in his game (with that ridiculous trigger movement he had that made him an easy target), but that has been ironed out now, so Id be inclined to give him another shot. At this point that they dont have a lot to lose; if it doesnt work out then so be it, but given a choice Id sooner see Morgan tried before someone like Bairstow.

I would have preferred if he had not bothered with the IPL this year, as the other guns will be scoring runs in four day cricket which mean much more tvan the IPL.

The good news for Morgan even if he has not ironed out his problems it does not matter for the summer as between them lanka and India have no good bowlers bar herath and even he will struggle with the early summer conditions.

What would be your top 7 btw?

djimi

To be fair, KP didnt exactly play a whole lot of four day domestic cricket either. He didnt even have a county at one point. England are looking for someone to replace what he brought to the side; a technically gifted but flamboyant type of player who will take on the bowling and look to score quickly; in theory someone like Morgan would be a better bet, even if he is playing T20 when everyone else is freezing their asses of playing county championship in April-May!

I suppose the way Im looking at it, England are looking to replace the star quality of KP as much as anything, and a player like Morgan (in theory anyway) has a lot of the right things about him to do this. He might not be a traditional test batsman so to speak, but I dont think thats what England should be looking for.

Im not 100% certain about my top 7, but I suppose it would look something like

Cook
Root
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Stokes
Prior

Maybe not Ballance, and maybe not in that order, but something to that effect.

kryogen

Rjd2 wrote: »

Why do people keep talking about Morgan as a test player? he failed last time and his four day record when he plays which is rare is poor.

he will be in the IPL this year so he will miss a lot of four day games while hs rivals, Ali, Root, Ballance, Taylor and even Bairstow will be scoring runs for their respective counties.

Don't we remember yuvraj Singh folks? Some peeps are guns in limited overs but struggle in test cricket, as George Bailey will agree.

On KP, no matter if you love or hate him the fact is he is getting Piers Morgan to fight his battles by leaking him information which is disgraceful. For that alone, good riddance.:mad:

Probably cause he is Irish I suppose and is an exciting player to watch, no more crazy then people who kept putting Monty forward despite his numerous chances/failures.

He may always be just a Limited overs player, but what have they got to lose right now?

wicorthered

I think Morgan will come in because like KP he's a bit of a maverick with the bat. His unorthodox style and attacking intent offers some aggression in the middle order. With the technically sound, yet somewhat slow scoring Cook, Bell and Ballance likely to be 3 of the top 4 there's room for an aggressive stroke maker at 5. Morgan is almost a like for like replacement for KP. Test cricket is full of brilliant batsmen who came back spectacularly from being dropped.

dom17

djimi wrote: »

He is in the very highest bracket of batsmen of my lifetime in terms of pure raw talent and ability, but too often the consistency and application simply wasnt there. A test career of over 8000 runs @ 47 from 104 test matches suggests that he was a great player (a very great player), but had he been able to control himself and play for the big innings rather than the big shots and quick scores then I think he could have gone down as one of the very best.

Back in the 90;s great players avgd in the 40's since the 00's great players avg in the 50's so i would rate him as a good player. The term great should be reserved for the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting and Kallis.

djimi

dom17 wrote: »

Back in the 90;s great players avgd in the 40's since the 00's great players avg in the 50's so i would rate him as a good player. The term great should be reserved for the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting and Kallis.

You can get down to semantics if you like regarding the meaning of good vs great, but as far as Im concerned, when talking about a batsman who maintained an average of nearly 50 for a career spanning 100+ test matches and 8000+ runs, to refer to him as merely good seems like somewhat of a disservice.

dom17

djimi wrote: »

You can get down to semantics if you like regarding the meaning of good vs great, but as far as Im concerned, when talking about a batsman who maintained an average of nearly 50 for a career spanning 100+ test matches and 8000+ runs, to refer to him as merely good seems like somewhat of a disservice.

Calling him good isn't a disservice ok he's better than good but not a great I'd say its a disservice to true greats to call him great.

I dont think you can say that he averages nearly 50 as thats roughly an extra 400 runs to his tally. I could say that he only averages just above 45 but that wouldnt be right either. Hayden(103) and Sehwag(104) both played around the same amount of tests scored more runs at a higher average, i wouldnt call them great either, v good but not great.

What about Sobers less tests (93) 100 runs less avg 58 in the days of unprotected wickets, now thers a true great could never put KP in that class

we'll agree to disagree but hey thats sport

djimi

I guess it just comes down to how you define great! Statistically he is in the top 50 or so batsmen to have ever played the game. To me players like Tendulkar, Sobers etc are legends of the game. I would define "great" as a level below that, and to me he belongs in that group. Semantics really

Rjd2

Morgan withdraws from the IPL. Fair play, he was a starter last year and did very well for Kolkata and would have gone for good money this year.


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/717835.html

If he scores runs in four day cricket then, I wouldn't be against giving him another opportunity.:)

booth70

Agree......I am still not convinced about him as a Test player.....but at least he's headed in the right direction in his efforts to win back a test place

Given that KP is gone , I will not be surprised if Morgan starts against SL in May

I also reckon that without KP in the one day side , Morgan is England's best one day player now and should be given both the one day and T20 captaincy period

djimi

Completely agree with giving Morgan the ODI captaincy, and tbh I would be looking at it as a trial for the test captaincy in the not too distant future (assuming he can get himself settled in the test side). I have been very impressed with him when I have seen him captain the side and feel that it is something that he has a natural flair for. Obviously he has to establish himself as a test player first though!

Gillespy

Has the captain for the West Indies tour been announced or is it Broad seeing as they're using it as warmup for the T20 world cup?

Rjd2

Gillespy wrote: »

Has the captain for the West Indies tour been announced or is it Broad seeing as they're using it as warmup for the T20 world cup?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies-v-england-2013-14/content/current/series/636529.html

Yep Broad as captain and Morgan as vice. No tests:(

Will probably see Lumb and hales open, no problem with that may as well see if they can play in this format.

Dernbach is untouchable it seems:P

kryogen

I like that Jade is an ever present

Dozen Wicked Words

Can't stick Dernbach and one of the best parts of Northants winning the T20 was him getting sent all round the park in the process. He isn't good enough to play for England and seems to have one of the worst attitudes in County cricket.

Gillespy

He has all the variations but is in no form at the moment. Might be case of being found out too.

kryogen

He has all the variations, but does he actually have a stock delivery that those variations can take advantage of?

Long may he continue to be picked!

Gillespy

He doesn't bat and isn't a great fielder. Doubt he'll make the team after Australia. He won't keep Jordan out and with Broad, Bresnan, Stokes with Wright and Boparo, there's plenty of bowling.

Beasty

Paul Collingwood brought in as assistant coach for the forthcoming tour of WI and the T20 World Cup

Can't say I'm surprised they are getting him involved and I think it's a very positive move. He's maybe not ready for the Flower role yet, but I'd like to think they are grooming him for it at some time in the future