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Landlord's apartment in Receivership

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    #32
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    I did read that, but it was written by the Irish banking federation which would concern me as they are hardly going to tell your rights which aren;t in their interest, also a few things of concern

    "In general, neither the bank nor the receiver take over the landlord’s obligations to you"
    "Generally, the appointment of the receiver does not change your obligations under your lease."
    -This seems like the bank/receiver take on the benefits of the lease without the associated obligations. The landlord is not going to repair a property they're not being paid for.

    "The law on receivers is complex and this leaflet does not amount to legal advice to you"
    - Its really legal proof I was looking for, a leaflet by the bank is bound to put a positive slant on things. Even information from an unbiased party would be helpful.

    Also I understand if you pay rent you maintain your rights under the residential tenancy act, but that's different to the lease. Can a contract between two people legally be transferred to a third party?


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    #33
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    "In general, neither the bank nor the receiver take over the landlord’s obligations to you"
    "Generally, the appointment of the receiver does not change your obligations under your lease."
    -This seems like the bank/receiver take on the benefits of the lease without the associated obligations. The landlord is not going to repair a property they're not being paid for.

    Then the landlord is in breach of their obligations under tenancy law and can be brought before the PRTB. The receiver is appointed to manage the debt, not the property.
    Nino Brown wrote: »
    "The law on receivers is complex and this leaflet does not amount to legal advice to you"
    - Its really legal proof I was looking for, a leaflet by the bank is bound to put a positive slant on things.
    The banks are bound by property law and every single mortgage document in the country has the same clause regarding the appointment of receivers.

    The legislation that governs receivers is mentioned in the guidelines (and I quoted it in my post);
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1881/en/act/pub/0041/print.html

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0027/print.html
    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Also I understand if you pay rent you maintain your rights under the residential tenancy act, but that's different to the lease. Can a contract between two people legally be transferred to a third party?

    The lease cannot take away from the rights under the RTA, it can supplement them though and provide for other legalities, like stipulate the details of the tenancy - the tenants, contact details of the landlord and his agents, provide a schedule of inventory items etc.
    The contract is not being transferred the receiver is acting as an agent for the landlord in some respects of the tenancy, not all - again this is in the guidelines.


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    #34
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Then the landlord is in breach of their obligations under tenancy law and can be brought before the PRTB. The receiver is appointed to manage the debt, not the property.

    If the landlord's property is in receivership, it's pretty obvious they're comfortable with being in breach of obligations
    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    The contract is not being transferred the receiver is acting as an agent for the landlord in some respects of the tenancy, not all - again this is in the guidelines.

    I see, that makes sense, thanks.

    If this happened to me, I would want out anyway, it seems like too much hassle for me, so what would be the legal situation if I wanted out. Can the receiver enforce the lease if I were to break it? Can they enforce terms on behalf of the landlord, because at that point the landlord wouldn't care if I left, so the person the contract is with wouldn't care if it was enforced.


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    #35
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    If the landlord's property is in receivership, it's pretty obvious they're comfortable with being in breach of obligations



    I see, that makes sense, thanks.

    If this happened to me, I would want out anyway, it seems like too much hassle for me, so what would be the legal situation if I wanted out. Can the receiver enforce the lease if I were to break it? Can they enforce terms on behalf of the landlord, because at that point the landlord wouldn't care if I left, so the person the contract is with wouldn't care if it was enforced.

    Some receiverships are precautionary rather than a last resort. So the landlord may not be in breach of this mortgage but another one in a portfolio.

    The receiver can enforce the terms of the lease, again this is mentioned in the guidelines.


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    #36
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Aren't Cabot debt collectors? I've never heard of them as receivers...


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    #37
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    Aren't Cabot debt collectors? I've never heard of them as receivers...

    They have fleshed out their operations - it's listed as a service on their website along with numerous other services.

    http://www.cabotfinancial.ie/services/mortgage-collection


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    #38
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    They have fleshed out their operations - it's listed as a service on their website along with numerous other services.

    http://www.cabotfinancial.ie/services/mortgage-collection

    It's as I thought. They are debt collectors, and NOT official receivers. And I'm not sure they will tell the OP too much either since Cabot are collecting the debt on behalf of the LL's mortgage company.

    I'd be getting on to Threshold first thing, OP and find out how best to approach this. As others have said, put aside the rent money in a separate account.


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    #39
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    It's as I thought. They are debt collectors, and NOT official receivers. And I'm not sure they will tell the OP too much either since Cabot are collecting the debt on behalf of the LL's mortgage company.

    I'd be getting on to Threshold first thing, OP and find out how best to approach this. As others have said, put aside the rent money in a separate account.

    Yes they are debt collectors, they are also arrears managers for the Credit Unions, they deal in property repossessions, sales/asset disposals and they have an affiliation partner that provide legal services.

    There is no such thing as an official receiver, anyone can be appointed as a receiver as long as they are qualified to do so, the only restrictions are that it can't be a company and it can't be an undischarged bankrupt. It could well be a named member of staff from Cabot - one of their services is Rent Receiver & Property Management Services.


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    #40
    NewApproach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭NewApproach


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    It's as I thought. They are debt collectors, and NOT official receivers. And I'm not sure they will tell the OP too much either since Cabot are collecting the debt on behalf of the LL's mortgage company.

    I'd be getting on to Threshold first thing, OP and find out how best to approach this. As others have said, put aside the rent money in a separate account.

    Did you not read the letter? X & Y of Cabot have been appointed joint receivers...


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    #41
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    NewApproach wrote: »
    Did you not read the letter? X & Y of Cabot have been appointed joint receivers...

    Yes, thanks. They're still debt collectors and I wouldn't be handing them a penny until I took advice.


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    #42
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    OP you can search Iris Oifiguil for the appointment of receiver - you may have to search through a few issues unless you can narrow down the date of appointment.


    http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/


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    #43
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    No chance Id be handing over a single penny to anyone other than the person I had a contract with, full stop. Im not entirely sure you are serious that the OP should hand over money based on a pamphlet produced by the Irish Banking Federation.


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    #44
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    drumswan wrote: »
    No chance Id be handing over a single penny to anyone other than the person I had a contract with, full stop. Im not entirely sure you are serious that the OP should hand over money based on a pamphlet produced by the Irish Banking Federation.

    Have you read the guidelines?


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    #45
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Yes, its produced by a bunch of crooks whose only interest has ever been to protect their own rackets tbh, I wouldnt be paying it too much attention.

    These 'guidelines' basically say you should pay someone for services they are under no contract or obligation to provide - "In general, neither
    the bank nor the receiver take over the landlord’s obligations to you".

    If I was the OP I'd be looking to protect my deposit in the first instance and get out of there once that is done.


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    #46
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    drumswan wrote: »
    Yes, its produced by a bunch of crooks whose only interest has ever been to protect their own rackets tbh, I wouldnt be paying it too much attention.

    These 'guidelines' basically say you should pay someone for services they are under no contract or obligation to provide - "In general, neither
    the bank nor the receiver take over the landlord’s obligations to you".

    If I was the OP I'd be looking to protect my deposit in the first instance and get out of there once that is done.

    Drumswan you're wrong. The rights and obligations of a receiver are written into Irish law. The guidelines are a non legalese version of faqs for tenants, which reference the legislation.
    The receiver is responsible for the debt repayment, the landlord still owns the property and having a receiver appointed does not mean the property is taken off the landlord.
    The tenants still have to adhere to their obligations and the landlord theirs.

    I'm tired of explaining this...read the land and conveyancing law reform act 2009.


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    #47
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Im not 'wrong' about anything, just saying what I would do in such a hypothetical situation. Expecting a broke landlord you are not paying rent to to replace a knackered boiler in the middle of winter for example is a recipe for disaster and a situation I would look to extricate myself from ASAP.


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    #48
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    drumswan wrote: »
    Im not 'wrong' about anything, just saying what I would do in such a hypothetical situation. Expecting a broke landlord you are not paying rent to to replace a knackered boiler in the middle of winter for example is a recipe for disaster and a situation I would look to extricate myself from ASAP.

    Sure on that basis pay me the rent and I'll make sure the place is kept in good nick. I've as much contractual obligation to the OP as the Landlord now has if a receiver has been appointed.


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    #49
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,729 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I still stand by my earlier comment - this all has nothing to do with the OP and if it were me I wouldn't be giving a glorified collection agency a cent.

    Again the "rules" and "legislation" comes out but we see time and again how meaningless and ineffective that is on this forum when ALL parties concerned ignore, are ignorant of, or just make up the rules as they go - from landlords, to estate agents to tenants themselves. I can just imagine the "fun" if the OP needs something fixed or there's some other problem.

    Either way it's likely the OP is going to lose their home (the landlord will lose their investment sure but they still have a roof over their head regardless) in the short-medium term so if it were me I'd just serve notice and move to be honest.


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    #50
    NewApproach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭NewApproach


    Cabot Financial seemingly provide many different services. One is debt collecting. Another is operating rent receiverships. I really don’t see why you’re getting so concerned about this.


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    #51
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    I still stand by my earlier comment - this all has nothing to do with the OP and if it were me I wouldn't be giving a glorified collection agency a cent.

    Again the "rules" and "legislation" comes out but we see time and again how meaningless and ineffective that is on this forum when ALL parties concerned ignore, are ignorant of, or just make up the rules as they go - from landlords, to estate agents to tenants themselves. I can just imagine the "fun" if the OP needs something fixed or there's some other problem.

    Either way it's likely the OP is going to lose their home (the landlord will lose their investment sure but they still have a roof over their head regardless) in the short-medium term so if it were me I'd just serve notice and move to be honest.

    It has everything to do with the OP. If the local Spar changes hands you don't walk out with a sandwich and a paper and send a cheque to the previous owners.

    It's fine of the OP want's to be skeptical, fine if they want top withhold the rent full stop, keeping it aside. But at some point, if the rent is a significant amount, this is going to end up in court. The OP needs to be in a position to satisfy the debt to whomever it is legally owed.


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    #52
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    drumswan wrote: »
    Im not 'wrong' about anything, just saying what I would do in such a hypothetical situation. Expecting a broke landlord you are not paying rent to to replace a knackered boiler in the middle of winter for example is a recipe for disaster and a situation I would look to extricate myself from ASAP.

    Drumswan only your last line regarding protecting your deposit was hypothetical - the rest of your post was a rant at the banking sector and a disregard for the legislation in place, which I might add was not written by the banking sector, but by our legislators. Certain sections of industry provide easy to read pamphlets and guidelines to allow those not versed in the area to have an understanding of situations they may find themselves in, the PRTB have them, Employment Rights bodies, Revenue, the citizens advice website is full of these guidelines for all walks of life.

    The receivership relationship is dealt with in every mortgage document, in the event of invoking this clause the receiver becomes the landlords agent.
    Every properly written lease agreement should be drafted to deal with the landlord or the landlords agent.
    They even tell you to contact the receiver if there are issues with the tenancy (repairs etc) and if the landlord is not cooperating.

    I just can't fathom the disregard for the processes in this situation.


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    #53
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    OP- I think you have gotten some very good information in this thread (alongside some unfortunate mythology, a dose of paranoia and some remarkable pigheadedness). I am closing this thread for you. If you'd like it reopened, please PM me.

    Regards,

    The_Conductor


This discussion has been closed.
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