Opting out of S&S

unknowngirl!!

Do we have to put in writing if we are choosing to opt out of S&S? Does anyone have a template that can be used to give to school management?

TheDriver

You must put it in writing, no template yet but you can simply state you want to opt out....(if you are TUI whereby they issues a letter, if ASTI you will have to wait a week or two

unknowngirl!!

I'm ASTI. I wrote a short simple letter and gave it to management stating that I was opting out.

Is that it now or do I continue my S & S until I'm formally told to stop?

No answer from the ASTI when I rang...

TheDriver

I thought its status quo until the circular i.e. you can't opt out until the option is there. Also can you opt out i.e you didn't do pensionable s&s last year??

Pwpane

From the DES letter:

This opt-out will be effective from 1 January 2014

I wouldn't be doing any more S&S if I was sure I was eligible and had decided to opt out. The letter to the principal is sufficient in the absence of the form.

TheDriver

Its from Jan. See seavill below. Seems strange u can opt out before schools are aware how they can cope and other options are in place

seavill

Can I opt out of S&S?

Only teachers who were not in the S&S scheme on a pensionable basis during the 2012/2013 school year have the option to opt out of doing S&S. If such a teacher opts out of S&S duties, a reduction of €1,769 will be applied to their annual salary. This deduction applies from January 1, 2014.

How do I opt out of S&S?

The Department of Education and Skills is currently developing a form which teachers who wish to opt out of S&S duties must complete.

Pending the issuing of this form, eligible teachers who wish to exercise their right to opt out of S&S duties should put this in writing to the school principal. Once the principal is informed, the teacher should not be placed on the S&S rota.

When is the deadline for opting out of S&S?

The deadline for opting out of S&S duties will be clarified when the opt-out form is issued by the Department. In the meantime, you may opt out by writing to the principal or you may choose to wait to consider your options. It should be noted that from January 20th, all teachers who have not opted out of S&S will be expected to undertake S&S duties.

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/supervision-and-substitution-arrangements-under-the-haddington-road-agreement//back_to/asti-home/

gaeilgebeo

Are there many people considering opting out?

ytareh

YES!1750 by 50% (tax) minus union sub works out at under a tenner a week .Youd be mad not to if you had the choice.

Caiseoipe19

Am I correct in saying that NQTs that only qualified this year are able to opt out? I assumed so because I fit the criteria of not having done it on a pensionable last year, since I wasn't qualified. But I was told by a teacher that I wouldn't have the option available to me, because I'm an NQT. Not that it makes much difference...I'd probably do it anyways because as a fixed-term teacher looking for a contract renewal next year, it probably wouldn't go down well if I didn't. Why keep me on if they can get someone in that also covers S&S?

Pwpane

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that NQTs that only qualified this year are able to opt out? I assumed so because I fit the criteria of not having done it on a pensionable last year, since I wasn't qualified. But I was told by a teacher that I wouldn't have the option available to me, because I'm an NQT. Not that it makes much difference...I'd probably do it anyways because as a fixed-term teacher looking for a contract renewal next year, it probably wouldn't go down well if I didn't. Why keep me on if they can get someone in that also covers S&S?

You weren't a teacher last year, ergo you don't qualify for the opt-out.

From Seavill's post above: "Only teachers who were not in the S&S scheme on a pensionable basis during the 2012/2013 school year have the option to opt out of doing S&S."

TheDriver

correct, all NQTs from this year on can't opt out.

Terri26

TheDriver wrote: »

correct, all NQTs from this year on can't opt out.[/quot

what about NQts from last year?

TheDriver

See Seavill above. It depends if you were teaching and hence if you did S&s pensionable......

Terri26

TheDriver wrote: »

See Seavill above. It depends if you were teaching and hence if you did S&s pensionable......

I'm confused hence why I'm asking. Nqts (from last year) in my school have been told they are not eligible to opt out as they didn't do it last year. At the beginning of the school year (2012)they were told they would not br paid so most didnt do it.

Terri26

and if it applies only to teachers who were not pensionable does that mean teachers who had opted out (not just nqts) are not allowed the opt out either?

TheDriver

well according to ASTI, if you were pensionable last year then you can't opt out. If you were anything else, then you can (as long as you were teaching last year).

Another interesting nuance, what about people moving sectors or even jobs next year??

Terri26

Thanks, I wonder why our new teachers are being told otherwise. I'd love the option to opt out and only stayed in as a favour to management as a few ppl had opted out in my place over the last few yrs. That favour is now biting me in the ass forever.

doc_17

What happens the pension contributions people have made on this payment? Gone into the ether?

Peter Flynt

ytareh wrote: »

YES!1750 by 50% (tax) minus union sub works out at under a tenner a week .Youd be mad not to if you had the choice.

1769 deducted works out at a loss of 67.80 per payslip.

Now roughly 52% would go on tax - so the loss to your pocket is 32.54 per fortnight or 16.27 per week.

ASTI subscription (for a 22 hours per week teacher) is roughly 6.34 per week.

Cancelling this subscription and leaving the ASTI leaves the loss at roughly ten euro per week alright.

Incidentally teachers who opt out will still receive the payments on the salary scale due in April 2017 [the first instalment] and 2018 as part of the agreement to do S&S. . . Although they are opting out for the rest of their careers.

TheDriver

doc_17 wrote: »

What happens the pension contributions people have made on this payment? Gone into the ether?

yes gone and forgotten unless you plan to retire in the next 3 years when it does count towards your entitlement.

According to the pensions board, its related to the fact that we pay a subscription to a pension scheme as opposed to contribute to a pension pot hence we don't have a claim.

Pwpane

TheDriver wrote: »

yes gone and forgotten unless you plan to retire in the next 3 years when it does count towards your entitlement.

According to the pensions board, its related to the fact that we pay a subscription to a pension scheme as opposed to contribute to a pension pot hence we don't have a claim.

I didn't know about the next 3 years? Can you tell me where I'd find info on that, please?

TheDriver

I can't get my hands on it now but I remember seeing it on INTO website in summer.

Matthew712

Do Principals and Deputy Principals have to do s&s, or are they not considered teachers? If ten teachers opt out, does the school get a fund of 10x1769 to provide s&s?

ethical

We have a Principal who always signed up for it and never did it when a teacher !!!! Now ,as Principal wants everyone to do it and uses the motto: If I am in school so should you!!!! as far as s and s and CP hours are concerned.I know its bullying but staff will not stand up for themselves.

Pwpane

TheDriver wrote: »

I can't get my hands on it now but I remember seeing it on INTO website in summer.

Thanks. Just found this on the INTO website:

Under the original proposals teachers retiring over the next seven years will have the supervision allowance factored into the calculation of pension and lump sum. That commitment still applies.

It's the first I've heard of it, I don't remember seeing that in the documentation. Anyone know where it is - original CP agreement maybe?

teacherhead

Matthew712 wrote: »

Do Principals and Deputy Principals have to do s&s, or are they not considered teachers? If ten teachers opt out, does the school get a fund of 10x1769 to provide s&s?

principal teachers and deputy principal teachers have to do s&s afaik. I have my 43 hours done. I'll hit 100 by June. re the alleviation - no idea, another ill thought out scheme I'm sure we will be left to take up the slack again.

Peter Flynt

Still in two minds as to whether to opt out of S&S. I cannot really afford it but leaving the ASTI and the levels of taxation means its a cut of 10 euro a week.

Advantages:
- No S&S. Not on call for 5 periods. Effectively don't do Haddington Road
- Time to do my job.
- Less stressed.
- Time available to do whatever other measures are coming down the line.

Disadvantages
- 1769 gross pay cut
- Pay Cut for the rest of my career in teaching [which won't be long if these cuts don't come to an end]

What would you do if you had the option?

Are you opting in/out if you have that option?
-

TheDriver

regarding opting out and HRA in general, is there any clarification about people not in a union??

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Still in two minds as to whether to opt out of S&S. I cannot really afford it but leaving the ASTI and the levels of taxation means its a cut of 10 euro a week.

Advantages:
- No S&S. Not on call for 5 periods. Effectively don't do Haddington Road
- Time to do my job.
- Less stressed.
- Time available to do whatever other measures are coming down the line.

Disadvantages
- 1769 gross pay cut
- Pay Cut for the rest of my career in teaching [which won't be long if these cuts don't come to an end]

What would you do if you had the option?

Are you opting in/out if you have that option?
-

I think you need to review the advantages. On call but you will still be free most periods and I found when I was teaching that it didn't stress me as such, just more of a dose to do the class when called upon. But I do also agree with your disadvantage, whats going to happen to this cut down the line.... Unfortunately its your choice to make but difficult one to call. In some ways, I am glad I don't have that choice because I don't see a benefit either way.
And when people talk about its only xx a week, the same people were nearly crying over a lost increment which is worth less, its still money.

ccazza

I worked out that last year I got €726 net for doing s&s. The majority of teachers in my school never signed up to the pensionability aspect of it as we felt at the time that we couldn't commit to doing it every year for the rest of our teaching careers. I think the majority who can are going to opt out. It's looking like it'll cost about €14 a week to opt out. You may have to do 3 hours a week for that €14 so basically pay wise less than €5 an hour. S&S isn't actually that bad to do in our school, just more afraid what will be added into the scheme in years to come.

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

I think you need to review the advantages. On call but you will still be free most periods and I found when I was teaching that it didn't stress me as such, just more of a dose to do the class when called upon. But I do also agree with your disadvantage, whats going to happen to this cut down the line.... Unfortunately its your choice to make but difficult one to call. In some ways, I am glad I don't have that choice because I don't see a benefit either way.
And when people talk about its only xx a week, the same people were nearly crying over a lost increment which is worth less, its still money.

Thanks for the advice there. . . To be honest I think Teaching, as a profession, is going down the drain in Ireland.

There's more to come after that has occurred over the past 5 years.

It's not about hours worked for me. . . It's about the fact that the DES don't want to pay for anything anymore.

I'm considering returning to study very shortly so that by 3-4 years I will have qualifications to make a career switch.

acequion

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Still in two minds as to whether to opt out of S&S. I cannot really afford it but leaving the ASTI and the levels of taxation means its a cut of 10 euro a week.

Advantages:
- No S&S. Not on call for 5 periods. Effectively don't do Haddington Road
- Time to do my job.
- Less stressed.
- Time available to do whatever other measures are coming down the line.

Disadvantages
- 1769 gross pay cut
- Pay Cut for the rest of my career in teaching [which won't be long if these cuts don't come to an end]

What would you do if you had the option?

Are you opting in/out if you have that option?

-

I can opt out and have already [submitted letter to my principal] and I was never so decisive about anything.Here's why:

1. Quality of life and balance are of paramount importance to me, much more so than money.
2. Delivering a quality service as a teacher is also essential to my well-being. I have very high standards of myself and need the time and the space to do my job properly.
3. Despite the fact that some people are now claiming that it's not so bad really,it is.Well in my school,it is as it's a large,spread out building and while discipline isn't too bad, there are still loads of very troublesome classes.I don't need that headache.
4. In any school it is an excessive demand,on top of all the other recent demands,so if only on principle,I wouldn't do it.
5. Being on call means that your day is no longer your own because you're on call.Pledging 5 classes presumably means pledging at least one a day.And we have precious few anyway.
6. We are all cash strapped but it is affordable. At least now we get increments,there's talk of cutting usc,so there might be some alleviation some time soon.Plus, even if opting out,we still get this pay rise in 2017, if that actually happens.
7. Opting in means opting in forever,so no thanks.

Pwpane

teacherhead wrote: »

principal teachers and deputy principal teachers have to do s&s afaik. I have my 43 hours done. I'll hit 100 by June. re the alleviation - no idea, another ill thought out scheme I'm sure we will be left to take up the slack again.

Teacherhead, when you do substitution, do you put your name on the rota with everyone else's or do you step in when there's a gap?

TheDriver

Not sure about teacherhead but i have a lunchtime but for classes i step into gaps when they arise

Peter Flynt

TUI teachers have been doing S&S for a while now and their views would be very interesting.

Pwpane

TheDriver wrote: »

Not sure about teacherhead but i have a lunchtime but for classes i step into gaps when they arise

Are you listed on the lunchtime rota, then?

I'm just wondering how it works. If you're part of the scheme, surely you should be down in the specified number of spots on the rota like everyone else? How does it qualify if you fill in odd gaps rather than be on call irregularly?

I'm not saying that you don't do the number of classes required for the scheme. But to be seen to be fair?

TheDriver

I see your sentiment but staff in my place see my name on plenty and putting me on roster is futile as i do the hours when there is gaps. If i was on roster, who would do the gaps?
ps i am on the lunchtime rota, p and dp.

teacherhead

Pwpane wrote: »

Teacherhead, when you do substitution, do you put your name on the rota with everyone else's or do you step in when there's a gap?

I'm on Rota for morning supervision and do break and lunch in addition which I dont count -if I'm out and about I get to talk to teachers and students and it keeps things tight.

For classes I hop in where theres a gap, usually to stop people hitting the second class in a week or whatever.

Sometimes the person on the Rota will be absent, thats me again,. I just try to keep the thing ticking over without saddling anyone.

I'm only teaching a few hours so if I were to pick 5 periods I'd definitely do much less but where would that get me either.

I dont get the discipline problems, I didn't get them before I was DP either, this makes it easier. With new teachers I try to give them bandied classes if they have to be caught and give the established teachers the tougher ones as they kids wont act up as much. It's more work for me and I'm mot sire anyone has noticed even but I'm happier doing it that way.

teacherhead

Pwpane wrote: »

Are you listed on the lunchtime rota, then?

I'm just wondering how it works. If you're part of the scheme, surely you should be down in the specified number of spots on the rota like everyone else? How does it qualify if you fill in odd gaps rather than be on call irregularly?

I'm not saying that you don't do the number of classes required for the scheme. But to be seen to be fair?

As I said in my post you would get less if doing only the 5.

Myself and the principal aren't on the Rota for lunch but we do it every day. It doesn't have to be written on a piece of paper, everyone sees us, they know we're doing it.

As for the cover. I post a list every morning, if I'm covering im on it with everyone else.

whiteandlight

Topic please. This thread is about opting out of S and S, not who is doing what. Thanks

happywithlife

Saw the other thread about getting your opt-out letter submitted by tomorrow
Our principal put up something from the JMB and I'm pretty sure that there was something in it about teachers who wish to opt out notifying management by tomorrow. Not 100% as I have decided to stay in as I'm looking for a renewal of contract and feel it'd work against me if I opted out; so I didn't memorise it,but obviously tomorrow would be too late to check. If you're considering opting out, to err on the side of caution I think I'd submit in writing that I was considering it and awaiting further clarification ie the actual form from the dept.

whiteandlight

happywithlife wrote: »

Saw the other thread about getting your opt-out letter submitted by tomorrow
Our principal put up something from the JMB and I'm pretty sure that there was something in it about teachers who wish to opt out notifying management by tomorrow. Not 100% as I have decided to stay in as I'm looking for a renewal of contract and feel it'd work against me if I opted out; so I didn't memorise it,but obviously tomorrow would be too late to check. If you're considering opting out, to err on the side of caution I think I'd submit in writing that I was considering it and awaiting further clarification ie the actual form from the dept.

That's what the ASTI advice is, let your principal know in writing as soon as you do. It's courteous at least to let management know what you are thinking

happywithlife

Musicmental85 wrote: »

That's what the ASTI advice is, let your principal know in writing as soon as you do. It's courteous at least to let management know what you are thinking

Yes but I'm referring to tomorrow's date specifically. I think - no scratch that - I remember reading something mentioned somewhere about notifying management by tomorrow. Thought it was very short notice and a bit rich considering the dept haven't realised the official firm yet.

whiteandlight

happywithlife wrote: »

Yes but I'm referring to tomorrow's date specifically. I think - no scratch that - I remember reading something mentioned somewhere about notifying management by tomorrow. Thought it was very short notice and a bit rich considering the dept haven't realised the official firm yet.

Cool. We couldn't find a source for it apart from a rumour so agreed to shut the thread rather than giving people a fright.

To be honest I would imagine that management wouldn't have a leg to stand on trying to enforce tomorrow!

Peter Flynt

Who gave JMB the authority to ask for letters by tomorrow?

vamos!

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Who gave JMB the authority to ask for letters by tomorrow?

I don't know if they did. Our staff have until next week but management did ask that staff who have decided let them know so that they have some idea of what they are working with. People seem to respect that and think it's fair.

Alqua

Sorry if I'm backtracking here - but what is the story with non-union members and opting out of S&S? Has this been clarified? Was under the impression that it wasn't an issue but now I'm not so sure..

Peter Flynt

Alqua wrote: »

Sorry if I'm backtracking here - but what is the story with non-union members and opting out of S&S? Has this been clarified? Was under the impression that it wasn't an issue but now I'm not so sure..

It doesn't matter if you're in a union regarding the opt out.

If you did S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you have no opt-out choice.

If you didn't do S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you do have an opt-out choice at a cost of 1769 [for pre-2011 teachers]

ccazza

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It doesn't matter if you're in a union regarding the opt out.

If you did S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you have no opt-out choice.

If you didn't do S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you do have an opt-out choice at a cost of 1769 [for pre-2011 teachers]

You can have done S&S in 2012-2013 and still opt out as long as you weren't signed up to it being pensionable. Many teachers in our school undertook S&S last year but had not signed up to the pension aspect of it and so still have the choice to opt out.

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It doesn't matter if you're in a union regarding the opt out.

If you did S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you have no opt-out choice.

If you didn't do S&S during the 2012-13 academic year then you do have an opt-out choice at a cost of 1769 [for pre-2011 teachers]

Untrue. If you did it last year but the payment was not pensionable then you can also opt out