Gels, Food, Long distance

G1032

Guys
I'm not in a cycling club and really know little if anything about cycling!! I'm not cycling long and really only started regular cycling this summer just gone.

Longest cycle has been about 85km but I hope to go well beyond that in 2014 and have a goal to do a couple of what I would describe as very long cycles. First major one will be 160km and if I'm able to, the plan for August/September time will be a 200+km trip, overnight stay and 200+km home the following day.

My question is how should one feed himself on long trips like these? How often should one eat and what should one eat? Bananas and Granola bars are not going to get me through 160 km

I picked up a box of energy gels / isogel in TK Maxx today just to see what they'll do for me. Should these be used along with food or instead of food? How often do I need to drink and what do I drink? I've heard before that once you feel thirsty you're already dehydrated? Do I need to keep eating before I begin to feel hungry? How long do I stop for for food on a long ride? I'd imagine stopping for too long probably isn't the best idea?

I'm just trying to learn how to properly prepare for long cycles / any cycle and and help you can give is appreciated. Sorry for the long post/barrage of questions

Thanks in advance
G1032

Idleater

Unless you are doing the 160 - 200 competitively or under a strict time limit, you'll get through it with little or no gels.
I don't think I ate many if any doing the raid pyrenees. I did stop for lunch and ice cream etc. but that's allowed because I was on holiday :-)

lennymc

Idleater wrote: »

Unless you are doing the 160 - 200 competitively or under a strict time limit, you'll get through it with little or no gels.
I don't think I ate many if any doing the raid pyrenees. I did stop for lunch and ice cream etc. but that's allowed because I was on holiday :-)

ice cream on the tormalet. lovely.

07Lapierre

You can't beat real food!.

Gels are for those times that you can't eat real food..e.g during a race or during a Sportive, where your so tired/exhausted that you can't eat food without thinking your going to throw up.

On long spins I take Banana's and I usually stop along the way for a coffee and a sandwich.

ford2600

You'll get a lot of different replies.

FYIW I think gels, energy bars, sports drinks are unnecessary for sportive riders. Normal food will do just fine.

Most people new to cycling overestimate how much calories they burn, very roughly you'll use 600-700calories an hour.

Your body can store circa 2,500 calories as glycogen and depending on your body fat percentage many multiples of that e.g im a very lean 80kgs and at 10% fat have 64,000 calories available as fat.

IMHO and experience adapting your body to access fat stores is key to extending time on bike without food.

At cruising pace most of your calories can come from fat. The more sugar you digest the harder it is to access fat.

I was cycling a few years before I learnt this the hard way.

Enjoy your cycling

Lumen

This is a controversial subject.

You can train yourself to cycle any distance without eating. Your fat is food.

On the other hand, pro cyclists eat during races.

I think both sides would agree that gels are only suitable for emergencies, and the best approach to emergencies is to prevent them happening in the first place.

From personal experience, attempting to cycle long distances without eating and without specific preparation will end in misery. I can do almost exactly 100km with no food and no training and then I bonk.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bad experiences of using gels on the ROK cycle one year, avoid them eat proper food.

G1032

ford2600 wrote: »

Most people new to cycling overestimate how much calories they burn, very roughly you'll use 600-700calories an hour.

IMHO and experience adapting your body to access fat stores is key to extending time on bike without food.

At cruising pace most of your calories can come from fat. The more sugar you digest the harder it is to access fat.

Lumen wrote: »

You can train yourself to cycle any distance without eating. Your fat is food.

On the other hand, pro cyclists eat during races.

Wow. Didn't expect so many replies so quickly. Thanks.

So, how do I train my body to access fat stores and train to cycle without eating?

I did 75km about 2 months ago but after 65km the energy just sapped straight out of me, almost as if I flicked a switch. One second I was fine then I literally had to get off the bike and drink what ever water I had left. I don't really want to experience that again especially if i'm not close to home.....

Lumen

G1032 wrote: »

So, how do I train my body to access fat stores and train to cycle without eating?

You won't *just* burn fat, you'll also burn muscle glycogen. The faster you go the less fat and more glycogen you burn.

Starting with food in your stomach is going to suppress fat burning. Your body uses what is most available.

Possibly the most practical/least risky approach is to start on an empty stomach and start eating about half an hour before you expect to bonk.

Sir Arthur Daley

before you expect to bonk

Does this work for cycling too

smacl

G1032 wrote: »

I did 75km about 2 months ago but after 65km the energy just sapped straight out of me, almost as if I flicked a switch. One second I was fine then I literally had to get off the bike and drink what ever water I had left. I don't really want to experience that again especially if i'm not close to home.....

What works for me is to eat beforehand, which gives me about 2-3 hours cycling, and then bananas and/or flapjacks every 2 hours or so after that, regardless of whether I've started to feel hungry or not. Plenty of slow paced 200k+ spins last summer, typically with one shop stop to refill bottles. Distance isn't much of a problem at an easy pace with plenty of food and drink and a comfy saddle.

Inspector Coptoor

Be careful with gels, they make make you Sh1t yourself.

If eat real food & if you can train your body to burn fat for fuel, you shouldn't bonk at all.

G1032

And do I eat a banana for example or do I pack a sandwich into my jersey pocket? Is there a right or wrong food to eat?

Inspector Coptoor

Depends on the a approach you plan to take.

If you're going to be basing it on carbs, then a big breakfast of porridge & an isotonic drink in your sports bottle with bananas a s flapjacks every 2 hours should be fine.

If you're going down the lipolysis (fat using route), eggs and bacon for breakfast followed by nuts and maybe the odd bit of a flapjack could work well.

BailMeOut

Save all the leftover Christmas cake you can get hold off as it is the perfect cycling food. Loads of energy, very filling and quite compact to carry. Beats any gel.

macnab

This is a subject that even the experts can not agree on.

The best advice I can give is: on the day of an event never eat/consume a food or product that you have never tried before.
I have seen grown men with cast iron bellies react badly to Gels and the like. High5 gels might suit you but Powerbar Gels might give you cramps and visa versa.
Your body will use its fat stores as an energy source if you are exercising at a moderate level, ie not out of breath and able to carry on a conversation. I can cycle for about 90 minutes on just water in my bottle (28 to 32kmh average) Above that you need food in your system. A good balanced meal the night before is essential for me. I think porridge with a chopped banana for breakfast is a great start, then I use High5 4:1 energy drinks to keep my energy stores topped up at a rate of about 500ml/hour. On an event like the Ring of Kerry I would take a Gel every hour or so as a preventative. I eat bananas at the food stops and carry energy bars as a top up if the queues are too long. Topped off with another good balanced meal within a couple of hours of getting off the bike. I usually try to include pasta as its a great source of carbs.
As a rule of thumb: The body can use about 60g of carbs per hour.

smacl

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If you're going down the lipolysis (fat using route), eggs and bacon for breakfast followed by nuts and maybe the odd bit of a flapjack could work well.

Excuse the ignorance here, but how long does it take after eating fatty food to metabolise that fat as usable energy? My knowledge on LCHF is limited to browsing petethedrummers log on here and a number of the linked articles, and I'd be interested in trying this mechanism to drop a few kilos over the spring. Up until now, I've been using high GI carbs as a slow energy release, which work fine for distance but don't do much for fat loss.

ford2600

smacl wrote: »

Excuse the ignorance here, but how long does it take after eating fatty food to metabolise that fat as usable energy? My knowledge on LCHF is limited to browsing petethedrummers log on here and a number of the linked articles, and I'd be interested in trying this mechanism to drop a few kilos over the spring. Up until now, I've been using high GI carbs as a slow energy release, which work fine for distance but don't do much for fat loss.

I can easily do 100km on an empty stomach first thing in morning. Have done 200km on just a fistful of nuts.

The theory behind eating high fat is keeping insulin levels low, thereby avoiding sugar cravings and allowing the body to access body fat for fuel in higher percentages

Sir Arthur Daley

What are the best nuts for long distance cycling?

Inspector Coptoor

On an empty stomach & a body primed for lipolysis, it wouldn't be that long, there are too many variables to give you an exact time frame but if lipid/fat is the only fuel you put in the tank, the body will use it.

If you are primed and already in ketosis, it'll happen faster but within the first 10-11 days of ketosis I wouldn't be trying any sort of high intensity endurance exercise, you really would want to build up to it, particularly of coming off a lifetime of a carb heavy diet

Briando

WikiHow wrote: »

Bad experiences of using gels on the ROK cycle one year, avoid them eat proper food.

I feel the same about Gels, cant be hard on the stomach, I like Bananas and Clif Bars (or any natural food type bar) while out cycling.

If I am cycling over 3 hours at a decent pace then I'll try and eat a little bit of bar every 15 mins or so start about 30mins into the cycle.

AltAccount

2 bananas, 2 jam sandwiches and a smallish bag of Haribo is what I'd stick in my pockets for a 200km spin.

I wouldn't expect to have it all eaten by the end, but at least I have reserves if I started to bonk.

G1032

AltAccount wrote: »

2 bananas, 2 jam sandwiches and a smallish bag of Haribo is what I'd stick in my pockets for a 200km spin.

I wouldn't expect to have it all eaten by the end, but at least I have reserves if I started to bonk.

That's not a lot of food. Maybe I just eat too much in general. I couldn't imagine me eating only that on a cycle that would probably take me 8 hours...........

AltAccount

It's actually quite a lot IMHO. If you have two stops and eat a sambo at each stop, have a banana midway on both the second and third leg and you're working off a decent breakfast you'll probably barely feel hungry.

Keep sipping away at your water or whatever carb drink you brought, you'll be grand.

stecleary

I've used gels a fair bit but it would be only after I've bonked..I tend not to learn from previous mistakes and need them to get home after a little too long of a cycle.

last month I done a lot of training in the gym rather than on the bike, i tried on of these as i got it in a pack and had the jitters in between sets, serious stuff.
http://highfive.co.uk/product/energy/energysource-xtreme

I tried the 4:1 and liked but think im going to try the 2:1 on the bike soon

Colonialboy

I made some of these yesterday... yummy ,
http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/video-how-to-make-homemade-energy-bars-for-racing-training-recipe-included/
also twas a bit of craic cooking them with the kids, dont know if it saves money though. I could have fed the ROK with the batch we did.
all the advice already has been very good. Try a few things out and see how what you prefer and works for you. Figure out what works best for the night before meal, morning of and recovery meal.
I used eat Turkish Delight bars, or the kids Compotes (Apple/Fruit puree pouches) on long spins, xmas cake is great too. in fact the ends of any cake will do me.
Just knowing its in the back pocket will do, you dont have to eat it but at least you wont worry about the bonk.
Theres no need to make it a suffer-fest on your long spins if your only doing sportifs, the 'feel good' factor chomping into something you like after 100km , is far better than grabbing a gel.

C3PO

WikiHow wrote: »

Bad experiences of using gels on the ROK cycle one year, avoid them eat proper food.

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Be careful with gels, they make make you Sh1t yourself.

I would probably have phrased it a bit more delicately but I've had some pretty unpleasant experiences with gels too! I still use them for shorter races but for training and longer races I eat Go Ahead Fruit Bakes which I find a good substitute for sports bars and a lot cheaper too! Usually available on special in Tesco's etc. A bit like Fig Rolls but easier to swallow!
http://www.goahead.co.uk/fruit-bakes.html

Darkglasses

Gels work fine for me, although a lot of them are manky. In general, I just eat whatever I feel like, I try to bring a few different bits and eat what my body tells me. I don't take it any more seriously than making sure I have to something to eat when I get hungry, I'm not as concerned with my performance as some of the other guys here. I just try to be able to go the distance that I want to go.

Rambling Man

A wee bit of German stollen cake today. Perfect (as per whoever mentioned Christmas cake) Have what your body likes, knows and processes easily. For me, thats not gels.

Ole Rodrigo

With a good breakfast, like porridge with fruit and scrambled egg and toast ( unless you're a paleo person, but lets not go there :pac: ) you should be able to aim for 100 km bringing two bananas and water. Beyond that, unless its a competitive event , normal well balanced square meals should do the trick. Gels and all that stuff are good when a jolt of energy is needed, but not really relevant outside of racing. You can always plan for cafes and garages when deciding on a route, so you're not too far should you need to eat something. I would always choose bananas first. Adapting to eating less is the way to go otherwise you risk eating too much sugar and will have trouble losing weight.

zindicato

G1032 wrote: »

Guys
I'm not in a cycling club and really know little if anything about cycling!! I'm not cycling long and really only started regular cycling this summer just gone.

Longest cycle has been about 85km but I hope to go well beyond that in 2014 and have a goal to do a couple of what I would describe as very long cycles. First major one will be 160km and if I'm able to, the plan for August/September time will be a 200+km trip, overnight stay and 200+km home the following day.

My question is how should one feed himself on long trips like these? How often should one eat and what should one eat? Bananas and Granola bars are not going to get me through 160 km

I picked up a box of energy gels / isogel in TK Maxx today just to see what they'll do for me. Should these be used along with food or instead of food? How often do I need to drink and what do I drink? I've heard before that once you feel thirsty you're already dehydrated? Do I need to keep eating before I begin to feel hungry? How long do I stop for for food on a long ride? I'd imagine stopping for too long probably isn't the best idea?

I'm just trying to learn how to properly prepare for long cycles / any cycle and and help you can give is appreciated. Sorry for the long post/barrage of questions

Thanks in advance
G1032

saw them this evening in tk maxx (stephens green) not to bad price for them ..... they are like 27 in the shops for one box they are selling them for 16 quid and the energy bars from 35 in other shops down to 20 odd quid, didnt pick up one as i still have some left at home but its a great deal if you tend to use ut a lot.... on the other hand picked up a nice campy softshell from 230 quid down to 110 with a bit of pleading with the missus and some summer padded tights they were 175 plus before down to 54 quid:-) and a sealskinz gloves for 14 quid:-) great place to find some bargains if you only have the patience to look around

G1032

zindicato wrote: »

saw them this evening in tk maxx (stephens green) not to bad price for them ..... they are like 27 in the shops for one box they are selling them for 16 quid and the energy bars from 35 in other shops down to 20 odd quid, didnt pick up one as i still have some left at home but its a great deal if you tend to use ut a lot.... on the other hand picked up a nice campy softshell from 230 quid down to 110 with a bit of pleading with the missus and some summer padded tights they were 175 plus before down to 54 quid:-) and a sealskinz gloves for 14 quid:-) great place to find some bargains if you only have the patience to look around

I picked up a box of gels and hydration tablets in the TK Maxx in Sligo. High5 is the brand. Came with the a High 5 water bottle and was only a tenner. I wouldn't have paid any more because I didn't really know if I'd use them or need them.

outfox

When I started cycling last spring, I was using gels non stop. Maybe 3 gels an hour, every hour. Then I was reading the boards here last summer, and I noticed that posters like Ford 2600 and Wishbone Ash were doing long cycles with little or no food. And a lot of posters were recommending fat burning rather than carb burning. So I've gradually switched over. But after 60-90 minutes, I have a figroll every 30 min. I'm trying to extend that out gradually.
The two biggest changes I found:
1 Adding those electrolyte tabs to water. No more bonking.
2 Avoiding caffeine before and during a spin. It just messes up the energy regime.

ZiabR

I bring a banana and fig rolls!!! I find the fig rolls great.

07Lapierre

outfox wrote: »

2 Avoiding caffeine before and during a spin. It just messes up the energy regime.

What no coffee? :eek:

outfox

07Lapierre wrote: »

What no coffee? :eek:

I know, yeah. I'm sure coffee is in The Rules somewhere. On club spins, I've started asked for decaf and herbal teas and stuff. I have to order when the other guys aren't in earshot, cos the looks I get are not good.
I'll maybe have a coffee towards the end of a spin.

Ole Rodrigo

Then only problem with coffee is its a diuretic so you need to drink more water.

Not really in the same bracket as simple carbs, I would say.

Amz

Gels are far too expensive to use on every spin. So many other/cheaper alternatives.

I've started making "bars" with pudding rice, coconut milk, apple juice and dried fruit and they're doing the job nicely on long spins. Good calories and easy to eat, as they stay together enough that they're not falling apart, but they're not stodgy and hard to consume.

07Lapierre

outfox wrote: »

I know, yeah. I'm sure coffee is in The Rules somewhere. On club spins, I've started asked for decaf and herbal teas and stuff. I have to order when the other guys aren't in earshot, cos the looks I get are not good.
I'll maybe have a coffee towards the end of a spin.

Not just coffee, Italian double expresso's!

ford2600

07Lapierre wrote: »

Not just coffee, Italian double expresso's!

Can outfox be banned for no coffee post.

MediaMan

Great advice on here.

If you are interested in the fat-burning approach, it is, in my view a much easier way to manage. Just to re-emphasize what others have said - it takes a while to adapt, so don't make the mistake of thinking you can switch over in a few days and then head off out with no food - it will end in tears.

For me what worked best for adapting was to head out cycling on my own without breakfast (and without having stuffed myself the previous evening). Then your easy-access carb stores are quite low and your body can get used to burning fat. For those cycles be sure to bring food for when you do run out of energy, but only use it when you need it.

The reason for cycling on your own is so that you can go at your own pace. You need to be cycling at a medium pace rather than drilling it.

I am by no means a full-on fat burner but I can now cycle 100km+ having had no breakfast and while only taking water and maybe a banana or two on the bike for backup. Not that I would want to do that all the time, but it's dead handy when you are late for a group spin, and a lot more convenient than carrying a cupboard full of food around. Also, building base fitness helps, as the better your base fitness, the more you can stay in fat buring mode.

I agree with keeping gels and energy drinks and bars for emergencies. If you consume them as a matter of course, you are teaching your body to depend on them. But it's always good to bring something for emergencies, as you never know when you might need a boost, due to the pace being high or your energy being low or just the stars not being aligned in your favour that day.

slideshow bob

WikiHow wrote: »

What are the best nuts for long distance cycling?

Not sure there's much research on which nuts are better for long distance events. I find brazils great as they dont fall to bits or get stuck in pocket corners (an n=1 finding). Macadamia nuts also pretty good but haven't found any on the shop shelves for a while.

Read something, cant recall where, to avoid peanuts and cashews as "they are not true nuts" - which I think means they're ground nuts rather than tree nuts. Whatever the implication of that is?

Lumen

slideshow bob wrote: »

Not sure there's much research on which nuts are better for long distance events. I find brazils great as they dont fall to bits or get stuck in pocket corners (an n=1 finding). Macadamia nuts also pretty good but haven't found any on the shop shelves for a while.

Read something, cant recall where, to avoid peanuts and cashews as "they are not true nuts" - which I think means they're ground nuts rather than tree nuts. Whatever the implication of that is?

Cashews are true/tree nuts.

Peanuts are beans/legumes.

The paleotards don't like "inflammatory" things which probably rules out anything associated with allergies.

There are both peanut allergies and tree nut allergies, but they are distinct and I think the tree nut allergies tend to be less severe.

Coffee and chocolate are made from beans, right?

outfox

Just bought a packet of prunes to try out on the next spin. Has anyone tried them?

Ole Rodrigo

Arent prunes a remedy for constipation ? Probably not the best idea for a cycle.

Brian?

Lumen wrote: »

Cashews are true/tree nuts.

Cashews are nuts in a culinary sense but not a botanical sense. They are the seed of a cashew apple. By definition, to a botanist anyway, a nut must have a hard outer shell. Cashews have no hard shell.

Does that mean you shouldn't eat them as they're not true nuts?- No.

"Paleotards" as you like to call them should absolutely eat cashews, but avoid peanuts as they avoid all legumes and plants of the nightshade family.

FWIW I think there are huge benefits to eating "paleo", with very few negtives. Apart from a severe lack of cake in the "paleo" diet. "Paleo" is a terrible name for it though, it's not how Paleolithic man ate. Paleolithic man ate whatever he could to survive, which varied hugely by geography.

Lumen

Here's a thing which talks about different types of nuts and inflammatory stuff, and it has paleo in the domain.

http://www.paleoflip.com/nuts-which-ones-to-eat-and-which-ones-to-avoid/

That's my high quality research done for the day.

Brian?

Lumen wrote: »

Here's a thing which talks about different types of nuts and inflammatory stuff, and it has paleo in the domain.

http://www.paleoflip.com/nuts-which-ones-to-eat-and-which-ones-to-avoid/

That's my high quality research done for the day.

Nothing like a terribly written blog post to prove/disprove a point eh?

Ole Rodrigo

The interesting thing about ' inflammation ' is that a certain amount of it is necessary to keep the immune system in good working order. Exercise is inflammatory, the benefits come after the body repairs itself. A bit like too many antioxidants in your diet adversely affecting your immune system by giving it too little work to do I guess.

Also, isn't all that nightshade stuff from the same school of thought as homeopathy ?

Brian?

ror_74 wrote: »

The interesting thing about ' inflammation ' is that a certain amount of it is necessary to keep the immune system in good working order. Exercise is inflammatory, the benefits come after the body repairs itself. A bit like too many antioxidants in your diet adversely affecting your immune system by giving it too little work to do I guess.

Have you ever read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre? It's a great point of reference for some of the nonsense peddled by nutritionists. In the book he says that any long term study on anti oxidant supplementation was stopped because the subjects receiving the supplements health markers were so badly effected it would have been immoral to continue. Anti oxidants bond to free radicals, your body uses free radicals to attack infection.

Also, isn't all that nightshade stuff from the same school of thought as homeopathy ?

Possibly. I wasn't saying they were right.

Ole Rodrigo

Brian? wrote: »

Have you ever read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre? It's a great point of reference for some of the nonsense peddled by nutritionists. In the book he says that any long term study on anti oxidant supplementation was stopped because the subjects receiving the supplements health markers were so badly effected it would have been immoral to continue. Anti oxidants bond to free radicals, your body uses free radicals to attack infection.

I've heard of it yeah. I didn't realise it was just supplementation, I thought the results suggested it would include antioxidants from diet as well, although in larger doses than many people would consume.