Advice for wavering Catholic/getting involved in a church

userofbuses

Hi wondering if people had some advice or maybe someone has a similar experience to me in relation to belief in God and getting involved in a church. Apologies, this is a fairly lengthy post but I would really appreciate it if you persevered to the end. J Apologies if I have posted in the wrong place.

I grew up in a Catholic family. Essentially I went along with Catholicism throughout my teenage years. I didn’t really think too hard about faith. I didn’t really think atheism was true. I liked the way that Catholicism is part of the fabric of growing up in Ireland: baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage and funerals. I was born in the early eighties into a well-off and quite liberal Catholic parish so most of the nasty elements of catholic influence on Irish society passed me by during my teenage years, though not entirely. My teenage years were before the full extent of the child abuse scandals was known. So at the time, my view of the Catholic Church was that it was a quant relic of the past.
I left Ireland for a long time after university in the mid-2000s. At that point I had an existential – “what’s it all about?” period. I read widely about religion – I was heavily influenced by prominent apologists like William Lane Craig, NT Wright, CS Lewis, Tim Keller & Alvin Plantinga. I came out the other end of this very difficult period as a Christian believer but not a member of a Church.

I arrived back in Ireland a little while ago hoping to finally get involved in a church. I would be really reluctant to stop being Catholic and cross to a Protestant denomination but it’s difficult to get enthusiastic about Catholicism. The leadership who presided over cover-ups of child abuse are largely still there and it is difficult to believe in them and take them seriously. For example, their influence in the recent abortion debate was counter-productive from the point of view of the anti-abortion side because of the recent past in dealing with child abuse.

From my time abroad I have realised that Irish Catholicism is different to Catholicism in other countries. Here, it is hard to get involved beyond just going to mass on a weekly basis. Fellowship is lacking. People don’t seem to read the Bible at all. I would like to get involved in something like a book-club, bible study or apologetics, preferably with a group of people in their twenties of thirties. I can’t find anything like that in Catholic Churches but maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

So, if you have stayed with me so far, is there a Catholic Church in the Dublin area which provides an avenue for thoughtful fellowship? A church where most people actually believe in Christianity rather than practicing a cultural faith? A church with a slightly younger demographic, including men like me in their early thirties? Failing that, is there a Protestant Church that does this?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mrs OBumble

userofbuses wrote: »

From my time abroad I have realised that Irish Catholicism is different to Catholicism in other countries.

This +100.

No way would I still be Catholic if my only view of it was what happens here.

I know nothing about Dublin parishes.

But once I realised I would be staying in Ireland for a while, I made a spreadsheet of the parishes in my city, and started systematically visiting and evaluating. And yes, I found a place.

A tip from a diplomat friend of mine who spent her lift changing countries every 3 years: forget the city centre, it's always dreadful. Look to the margins, the new areas, the immigrant areas. But not the very poor ones - people there are generally struggling so much with life that they don't have energy for any more than the basics.

Also, I've observed before that the level of congregational singing is often a good indicator of the general level of open-ness etc. Not fool proof - but if the people won't even engage with each other during worship, it's likely that they won't be doing much outside of it either.


And one last possibility, since you're in Dublin: check out retreat centres, monasteries and the like. Sometimes they have a good community around them.

lazybones32

I'll answer in points:
1: You are a member of a Church - you have been since baptism but I think you need "rebirth". That's not New Age code but a sanitised way of saying you need Baptism by the Spirit. I don't want to preach, so I'll leave it at that until you ask...
2: Dublin has Youth 2000 meetings (18-35 and "young at heart") and has other charismatic meetings. There are many Catholic-based Scripture meetings and as many Contemplation prayer-meetings (this is sitting silently in the presence of God and allowing Him to communicate "heart to heart"). One thing that annoys me about these meetings is that they are not well-advertised, so you may have to go hunting.
3: Fellowship is lacking among nominal/cultural Catholics but very close bonds can be forged by attending prayer meetings. A friend from years ago used to volunteer her Saturday Nights with other like-minded friends: they'd spend an hour with Jesus in the Eucharist and then go out and help people in need - distributing food or just being a friend to those who had none.
4: Salvation through works alone? That's not Catholic Teaching, neither is salvation through Grace alone. This question has been answered many times before throughout History but we Catholics are still accused of this.
We are saved by both: God's grace initiates and we respond (with help from His grace) but we must make a conscious, free, decision and effort. God won't force us to be saved against our will and Scripture repeatedly tells us that we will be judged on what we do (actions).
5: The RCC has a very rich history and deposit of faith and prayer. That's not to poke insult at my Christian brothers and sisters but the RCC has the fullness of grace and truth. The fact that God maintains it through the ministry of broken men is further example of His mercy.
I could go on and on...and on... but I don't want to bore you

Youth 2000 have a website that has contact numbers and locations. Even if you don't like the format of the meetings (or the tea and biccies after) someone might be able to put you in touch with another meeting.

Benny_Cake

I think this is a problem a lot of people have. I tried returning to the Catholic church myself a few years ago, and I found that unless you have kids (preferably attending a school associated with the parish), there was very little attempt at building a community. Show up on Sunday morning, rush through the service, go home, come back the following Sunday. It seems to be peculiar to Irish Catholicism, although the church in the US has it's problems at least it's trying to reach out with programs such as Theology on Tap for young adults who want to discuss what faith means to them.

Swimming the Tiber in either direction is no small thing in Ireland, even now, so I can understand why you would prefer to remain in a Catholic context. I didn't for a number of reasons I won't go into here, but there must something out there in the Catholic church. I'd echo what MrsOBumble said about checking out retreat centres and so on. I know that the Jesuits organise regular retreats - and the Jesuits are a group of people who demonstrate that you don't have to leave your intellect or your compassion at the door in order to be a Christian!

lmaopml

userofbuses wrote: »

Hi wondering if people had some advice or maybe someone has a similar experience to me in relation to belief in God and getting involved in a church. Apologies, this is a fairly lengthy post but I would really appreciate it if you persevered to the end. J Apologies if I have posted in the wrong place.

I grew up in a Catholic family. Essentially I went along with Catholicism throughout my teenage years. I didn’t really think too hard about faith. I didn’t really think atheism was true. I liked the way that Catholicism is part of the fabric of growing up in Ireland: baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage and funerals. I was born in the early eighties into a well-off and quite liberal Catholic parish so most of the nasty elements of catholic influence on Irish society passed me by during my teenage years, though not entirely. My teenage years were before the full extent of the child abuse scandals was known. So at the time, my view of the Catholic Church was that it was a quant relic of the past.
I left Ireland for a long time after university in the mid-2000s. At that point I had an existential – “what’s it all about?” period. I read widely about religion – I was heavily influenced by prominent apologists like William Lane Craig, NT Wright, CS Lewis, Tim Keller & Alvin Plantinga. I came out the other end of this very difficult period as a Christian believer but not a member of a Church.

I arrived back in Ireland a little while ago hoping to finally get involved in a church. I would be really reluctant to stop being Catholic and cross to a Protestant denomination but it’s difficult to get enthusiastic about Catholicism. The leadership who presided over cover-ups of child abuse are largely still there and it is difficult to believe in them and take them seriously. For example, their influence in the recent abortion debate was counter-productive from the point of view of the anti-abortion side because of the recent past in dealing with child abuse.

From my time abroad I have realised that Irish Catholicism is different to Catholicism in other countries. Here, it is hard to get involved beyond just going to mass on a weekly basis. Fellowship is lacking. People don’t seem to read the Bible at all. I would like to get involved in something like a book-club, bible study or apologetics, preferably with a group of people in their twenties of thirties. I can’t find anything like that in Catholic Churches but maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

So, if you have stayed with me so far, is there a Catholic Church in the Dublin area which provides an avenue for thoughtful fellowship? A church where most people actually believe in Christianity rather than practicing a cultural faith? A church with a slightly younger demographic, including men like me in their early thirties? Failing that, is there a Protestant Church that does this?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Gosh, this sounds so familiar to me. I thought I was the only one who wanted to get together and discuss the faith with other like minded Catholics and I also didn't want to leave the faith in order to fulfill that 'need' in me to study in my very very local area the things I wanted to study - or be part of a lectio divina group or Scripture study group etc. so on...... The main reason for never leaving was the Holy Eucharist to be honest and my absolute believe in the Priest hood and the real presence - which I couldn't leave no matter who was in the congregation or whether fellowship was found or not - I trusted in Providence.

Sometimes, I think grabbing the bull by the hornes and rather than waiting on others to start a group, perhaps you get involved and fight to start it yourself? Perhaps this is 'your' call?

kryptonmight

Very interested in this too as I'm similar to the OP.

I kind of wish my local parish(es) would do more of this type of stuff. I live in Dublin but I'm from the country.

I thought those youth 2000 groups had an upper age limit of 35? I'm 36 and turning 37 in a couple of months time.

antiskeptic

userofbuses wrote: »

Hi wondering if people had some advice or maybe someone has a similar experience to me in relation to belief in God and getting involved in a church. Apologies, this is a fairly lengthy post but I would really appreciate it if you persevered to the end. Apologies if I have posted in the wrong place.

I grew up in a Catholic family. Essentially I went along with Catholicism throughout my teenage years. I didn’t really think too hard about faith. I didn’t really think atheism was true. I liked the way that Catholicism is part of the fabric of growing up in Ireland: baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage and funerals. I was born in the early eighties into a well-off and quite liberal Catholic parish so most of the nasty elements of catholic influence on Irish society passed me by during my teenage years, though not entirely. My teenage years were before the full extent of the child abuse scandals was known. So at the time, my view of the Catholic Church was that it was a quant relic of the past.

I left Ireland for a long time after university in the mid-2000s. At that point I had an existential – “what’s it all about?” period. I read widely about religion – I was heavily influenced by prominent apologists like William Lane Craig, NT Wright, CS Lewis, Tim Keller & Alvin Plantinga. I came out the other end of this very difficult period as a Christian believer but not a member of a Church.

I arrived back in Ireland a little while ago hoping to finally get involved in a church. I would be really reluctant to stop being Catholic and cross to a Protestant denomination but it’s difficult to get enthusiastic about Catholicism. The leadership who presided over cover-ups of child abuse are largely still there and it is difficult to believe in them and take them seriously. For example, their influence in the recent abortion debate was counter-productive from the point of view of the anti-abortion side because of the recent past in dealing with child abuse.

From my time abroad I have realised that Irish Catholicism is different to Catholicism in other countries. Here, it is hard to get involved beyond just going to mass on a weekly basis. Fellowship is lacking. People don’t seem to read the Bible at all. I would like to get involved in something like a book-club, bible study or apologetics, preferably with a group of people in their twenties of thirties. I can’t find anything like that in Catholic Churches but maybe I am looking in the wrong places.
There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

So, if you have stayed with me so far, is there a Catholic Church in the Dublin area which provides an avenue for thoughtful fellowship? A church where most people actually believe in Christianity rather than practicing a cultural faith? A church with a slightly younger demographic, including men like me in their early thirties? Failing that, is there a Protestant Church that does this

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

It strikes that much would be resolved where you to look ahead on the road you're traveling rather than looking behind from whence you came.

-

You say "I came out the other end of this very difficult period as a Christian believer but not a member of a Church." This after having gone through a crisis of sorts. I'll assume this to the (a pretty typical) sequence of events resulting in biblically-described salvation. Anguish, desperation, fear, sickness, approaching death, etc. can bring a person to the end of themselves and they turn to the only place left: God. And he accepts them and saves them and makes them children of his. They are, as the saying goes, born again.

If so then congratulations!

-

It is understandable that you would want to stick which that which is familiar but there are good reasons take care before committing yourself to the next step on your journey.

The Catholic, and to a lesser degree, mainstream Protestant, churches are problematic. In both cases they've presided over the widespread installation of cultural Christianity: where people become members of the church in a cultural sense but haven't gone through that spiritual transformation known as being "born again". Since a person isn't a Christian (per God's definition) if they haven't been born again (and infant water baptism doesn't bring that about), these churches (the Catholic churches even more so) contain large numbers of non-Christians who think they, by virtue of attendance and conformity to Church teaching, Christians. But they are not - they are as lost as anyone outside the church. And spiritually blind as any outside the church.

It's not that there aren't any Christians in these churches - there most certainly are - but fellowship and progress will be difficult due to muddied waters and the stullifying effect of corporate culture and power hierarchy.

-

There are no shortage of lively, standalone churches formed by the gathering together of Christians. Although the emphasis can vary between them, you wouldn't face quite the same problems as you would in the established churches. I don't attend there myself but would recommend Trinity Church Network who meet at the (rather nice) Exchange building at the town end of Gardiner St. It's a largish gathering and does well in accomodating the various emphases without plowing any particular furrow. There's plenty going on in terms of fellowship and teaching to get your teeth into.

Manach

My two 2c, is that seeking answers and investigating deeper Catholicism is one of types of faith enriching behaviours that was mentioned in a "The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything". This is as an adult re-examining the ways that were taught growing up in the light of a mature adult's experience of life. Approching the topic with an open mind, hopefully the OP can get to experience the depth of Catholic tradition that that has provided a basis for the propagation of the faith.

J C

userofbuses wrote: »

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

You have become a Protestant!!!:);)

userofbuses wrote: »

So, if you have stayed with me so far, is there a Catholic Church in the Dublin area which provides an avenue for thoughtful fellowship? A church where most people actually believe in Christianity rather than practicing a cultural faith? A church with a slightly younger demographic, including men like me in their early thirties? Failing that, is there a Protestant Church that does this?

There are many good evangelical churches in Dublin ... and it can be a great experience visiting different ones ... and meeting fellow Christians ... and who knows, one may be just right for you.

Yours in Jesus Christ,

J C

SoulandForm

Read the New Testament from start to finish. Than start reading the writings of the early Christians but also read up on the context. And pray, pray hard- but also devote time to helping others.

userofbuses

Apologies for not getting back to this thread sooner. I was very ill last week and had a lot on at work too. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. I have so many different things to say that it’s difficult to write a post that is not a rambling mess. Sorry!



There were some great suggestions. Please keep them coming.


Reading the Bible from start to finish is a New Year’s resolution of mine. I read it on public transport. I have gotten some funny looks already. Ireland is a strange country. The vast majority of the country say (on their census form) they are Catholic but very few people ever talk about God or Jesus and those that do are probably thought to be a bit weird.


Even the most ardent supporter of the Irish Catholic Church would have to admit that the Irish Catholic Church is in a very bad place right now and really lost its way over the years. Even the charisma of the new Pope may not stop the decline of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Cultural Catholicism really hurt the Catholic Church in Ireland. Being a de facto state religion was very bad for the Catholic Church in Ireland. I believe that Archbishop Martin, someone I have huge respect for, said that we are the most catechised Catholic country but the least evangelised. A smaller but more evangelised Church would surely be better.


As I said before, it is extremely difficult to want to be part of a Church while certain members of its leadership seriously misunderstood and mishandled the past events resulting in huge harm to a great many people.
Am I a closet Protestant? Probably given my theological reservations. However I will educate myself more about specific Catholic theology rather than making rash decisions. I would be willing to bet that a majority, perhaps not an overwhelming majority but a majority nonetheless, of Irish Catholics would “fail” a multiple choice theology test to see how much they agreed with Church teachings. I bet most would be Anglicans but wouldn’t dream of taking the very bold step to actually convert.


I also worry about walking into a “Far Away Fields are Always Greener Situation”. I am sure I would find something wrong with every Church – which is not surprising given the Churches are for Sinners and not for Saints.



I will most likely go along to an Alpha Course as a way of finding my feet. Longer term I do want to get involved somehow in apologetics or an adult Sunday school. This will mean study and getting the appropriate training and qualifications but is something that I am willing to do.


Thanks for replying everyone.

hinault

My parish has a Eucharistic Adoration movement.

This allows those interested to commit to worshiping the Eucharist for a minimum of 60 minutes per week, at a specifid predetermined time.
I joined my parish group 18 months ago.

I got to meet several like minded people through this movement in my parish and through them, I was put in contact with a bible reading / prayer group.

I suggest for those who are interested in either attending their parish Eucharistic Adoration or their local prayer group, that they should contact their Parish Office in the first instance.

The Parish Office will put you in contact with either a member of the Eucharistic Adoration or local prayer group - in the first instance.

So I'd urge the OP to contact his parish office:)

leonil7

there is no possibility of 'salvation by good works', it is not taught by any of the apostles. and while the rcc may deny this and paint it with words of 'grace' or 'faith', what you should understand is that salvation for them is still forthcoming-> depending on performance in this life. 'salvation' then becomes a reward, rather than a gift.

salvation by grace, means salvation is a gift- given not earned. so why then is it now something to be achieved, when it is already given/grace? so there is your confusion.

this is of course directly opposite what you read in scriptures. when the apostle john exhorts his disciples 1Jn 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know THAT YOU HAVE eternal life. "; it is already an achieved possession, eternal life is yours unconditional, now. however it does not mean you have to relieve yourself of duties to love your neighbor as provided by john after v13. but eternal life is not conditional to it. it is inheritance as children adopted by God, given not earned.

userofbuses wrote: »

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

antiskeptic

userofbuses wrote: »

There were some great suggestions. Please keep them coming.

Suggestion #1. Don't read..

the Bible from start to finish

For to do so would suppose that it is an ordinary book (rather than a library of books). Bible > bibliotheque > library

Try to read it from start to finish and you'll bog down somewhere in Numbers and get discouraged.

It's not as if you can read it as you would a novel. If it is the word of God then you can expect it to be meatier than anything ever written. I've come to a halt, pondering, meditating landing on but a word..

I find the psalms a great entry (or re-entry) point. Or the gospels. Or Proverbs.

Ultimately, it's God who is going to bring his Word alive to you. It can be as dull as ditchwater or burning alive in your hands. No matter where you're in it.

I read it on public transport. I have gotten some funny looks already. Ireland is a strange country. The vast majority of the country say (on their census form) they are Catholic but very few people ever talk about God or Jesus and those that do are probably thought to be a bit weird.

I don't understand why you say that when you say this..

Cultural Catholicism

..for people who have been made Christians culturally needn't be Christians. And can be expected to react in non-Christian ways. I mean, who, who hasn't the significance of Christ applied to their lives in a way that is tangible to them should see the significance of Christ (supposedly, by way of infant baptism) applied to their lives

As I said before, it is extremely difficult to want to be part of a Church while certain members of its leadership seriously misunderstood and mishandled the past events resulting in huge harm to a great many people.
Am I a closet Protestant?

Salvation not by own merit and works and effort at any point? Definitely.

I will most likely go along to an Alpha Course as a way of finding my feet.

"The hand that rocks the cradle" applies to the Alpha Course as much as anything else. At least potentially. If a works based salvation lies behind the place running the Alpha then expect a works based slant on Alpha (which itself tends to steer clear of hardline -which makes it mouldable by all. Not a criticism I might add - Alpha was core to my own coming to the Lord).

antiskeptic

leonil7 wrote: »

when the apostle john exhorts his disciples 1Jn 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know THAT YOU HAVE eternal life. "

That Catholic position isn't that you gain salvation by works but that you are granted salvation (by way of infant baptism) and can lose by a failure to work.

It amounts to the same thing as salvation by works (that is: obtaining salvation by works is the same as being given it free at baptism but losing that salvation subsequently by failure to work/committing a mortal sin) but the above verse can and is rebutted in this way,

leonil7

infant baptism (to be granted salvation) in itself is a part of 'work', a qualifier in the part of man. something man has to do or undergo so he can gain something. that is the very basic definition of 'works', or in this case salvation by works.

so as you can see, when you use the word 'granted' what you really mean 'gained'. if you got yourself baptized, you gained it. if not, you dont gain it. you should therefore have yourself baptized- an act/work you should do so you can gain 'salvation'- in essence a reward for your effort.

antiskeptic wrote: »

That Catholic position isn't that you gain salvation by works but that you are granted salvation (by way of infant baptism) and can lose by a failure to work.

It amounts to the same thing as salvation by works (that is: obtaining salvation by works is the same as being given it free at baptism but losing that salvation subsequently by failure to work/committing a mortal sin) but the above verse can and is rebutted in this way,

Philope

userofbuses wrote: »

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook. [/FONT]

I don't think salvation through works is actually a catholicdoctrine, but rather a caricature of catholic doctrine. As far as Iknow they also endorse grace alone, because grace is God's gift.

What you might be thinking of is faith alone, a doctrineof some churches, that I cannot find in scripture, despite trying to.I've been given loads of quotes that pretend to portray faith aloneas being scriptural, but when you read them carefully in context theydon't actually say that.

SoulandForm

Philope wrote: »

I don't think salvation through works is actually a catholicdoctrine, but rather a caricature of catholic doctrine. As far as Iknow they also endorse grace alone, because grace is God's gift.

What you might be thinking of is faith alone, a doctrineof some churches, that I cannot find in scripture, despite trying to.I've been given loads of quotes that pretend to portray faith aloneas being scriptural, but when you read them carefully in context theydon't actually say that.

Different Roman Catholics have different views ranging from positions extremely near Calvinism to those totally contrary to the Gospel (views held by a lot of liberal Anglicans). Officially the position is basically salvation through co-operation with Grace which is in reality far removed from salvation through works.

Philope

antiskeptic wrote: »

Suggestion #1. Don't read..the bible from start to finish

For to do so would suppose that it is an ordinary book (rather than a library of books). Bible > bibliotheque > library

Try to read it from start to finish and you'll bog down somewhere in Numbers and get discouraged.

It's not as if you can read it as you would a novel. If it is the word of God then you can expect it to be meatier than anything ever written. I've come to a halt, pondering, meditating landing on but a word..

I find the psalms a great entry (or re-entry) point. Or the gospels. Or Proverbs.

Ultimately, it's God who is going to bring his Word alive to you. It can be as dull as ditchwater or burning alive in your hands. No matter where you're in it.

Good advice. I would also take it one book at a time, whoit was written to, by who, when, and what for, and who that book fits into the rest of the bible, rather than trying to read it like a lighter book. Most people don't succeed in reading it that way, unless they skim through from start to finish, and it's pointless skimming it.

Unfortunately most people just read endless quotes from the bible, many of which are often taken out of context, and a quote out ofcontext, is just a pretext.

SoulandForm

Philope wrote: »

I don't think salvation through works is actually a catholicdoctrine, but rather a caricature of catholic doctrine. As far as Iknow they also endorse grace alone, because grace is God's gift.

What you might be thinking of is faith alone, a doctrineof some churches, that I cannot find in scripture, despite trying to.I've been given loads of quotes that pretend to portray faith aloneas being scriptural, but when you read them carefully in context theydon't actually say that.

The thief on the Cross was saved by faith alone.

Philope

antiskeptic wrote: »

That Catholic position isn't that you gain salvation by works but that you are granted salvation (by way of infant baptism) and can lose by a failure to work.

It amounts to the same thing as salvation by works (that is: obtaining salvation by works is the same as being given it free at baptism but losing that salvation subsequently by failure to work/committing a mortal sin) but the above verse can and is rebutted in this way,

How does backslding fit into all of this, and can one loose their salvation, or are you of the TULIP and/or OSAS persuasion ? Which I never could make head nor tail of.

Philope

SoulandForm wrote: »

The thief on the Cross was saved by faith alone.

hmm, not so sure of that. He repented, he asked for forgiveness, he had faith, he had a personal relationship with Jesus, and by the grace of God, he was shown mercy. There was a lot more going on there than mere faith. Granted faith is an essential element and it will get you a long way, but faith alone, without repentance, prayer, and the grace of God, won't get you there.

kryptonmight

Just wondering if Meetup.com might have groups of interest around this?

antiskeptic

Philope wrote: »

How does backslding fit into all of this

Back sliding is sliding back towards the Egyptian life of enslavement you've been freed from. Not unto loss of salvation in my view however.

, and can one loose their salvation,

The way back to actual Egypt is barred by a closed sea.

or are you of the TULIP

Nope. For instance, I don't see how the U can be made stand, biblically-speaking. I know some conditions are excluded in the Bible but I'm not sure how all conditions can be excluded since one would have to know all the conditions there could possibly be and identify them as being biblically excluded from contributing to one's salvation.

or OSAS persuasion?

That would be more like it..

Which I never could make head nor tail of.

I simply don't see a convincing biblical case for losing salvation once obtained. Failing such a case there isn't an alternative to OSAS, is there? Once saved then always saved - bar some supported way of losing salvation.

Sure, one can point to snippets here and there which would, on first sight, appear to indicate such a thing possible. These have responses which I find adequate (usually commencing with the attempt to understand the surrounding context and culture into which they were written). TBH, it's the dearth of sustained, reasoned argument in the bible which hammers the final nails in for me on this matter. Paul spends half of Romans describing the way of salvation in close, forensic detail .. and omits to spend other than arguable half-sentences here and there on losing it? Implausible.

leonil7

the prodigal son might have all the description of backsliding, but he did come back. you see faith is born out of need, and it is in our helplessness that we call God. the circumstances comes either in our moments of suffering from outside or cause by ourselves falling down.

the lesson of OT israel is a hallmark cycle of falling away and returning and fallng away and returning. But God regardless preserves/forgives/strengthen those who are his. No, those of God dont lose their salvation at all. We are his workmanship from beginning to end. [eph 2:8-10]. We are not left alone.

lmaopml

leonil7 wrote: »

the prodigal son might have all the description of backsliding, but he did come back. you see faith is born out of need, and it is in our helplessness that we call God. the circumstances comes either in our moments of suffering from outside or cause by ourselves falling down.

the lesson of OT israel is a hallmark cycle of falling away and returning and fallng away and returning. But God regardless preserves/forgives/strengthen those who are his. No, those of God dont lose their salvation at all. We are his workmanship from beginning to end. [eph 2:8-10]. We are not left alone.

How do you in particular know you are 'saved'?

Was it through some experience where you understood something or were granted a gift of the Holy Spirit on you very own journey?

Is that the 'point' of existence that you 'know' you are saved right here and now, no judgement, just Jesus paying for you? Or, is there more than that for those who share this doctrine? More than Jesus paying for you?

As a Catholic, 'no' we don't believe 'OSAS' that is strange and alien and really rather new in terms of Christianity as a whole - to be honest - to us considering the amount of times Scripture mentions staying on the path..

It is not that we don't 'believe' we do 'believe' - but that the 'saved' bit is going a little bit overboard as regards ones own status etc.

Perhaps it's a really cool thing for some to proclaim that they are 'saved' but that is really not what Old Christianity does - they say they are on the 'path' and seek the face of Christ. They are only words, and I don't think they should divide people, but sincerely there is A LOT to discuss as regards the Old way and the New way..

Perhaps we'll be sent somebody who can reconcile this, I do hope so. In the meantime, I find myself drawn more closely to the Old Religion because it makes more sense as regards Scripture and the Tradition you find all over the world that lives still.

lmaopml

Anyway this thread was started with the notion of anybody who wanted to 'know' and is 'wavering' what their faith is all about..


I'd invite you to read Scripture and also to visit your Church. Spend time...and most of all 'listen'....and pray for understanding.

There are many resources, but there is not a single one better than spending time with Christ even if you don't feel his presence to spend it with him in quiet time just talking is where you will be given grace.

Our God hides himself behind his Creation - seek him out, and I think that's where the path only starts..

lazybones32

lmaopml wrote: »

How do you in particular know you are 'saved'?

Was it through some experience where you understood something or were granted a gift of the Holy Spirit on you very own journey?

Is that the 'point' of existence that you 'know' you are saved right here and now, no judgement, just Jesus paying for you? Or, is there more than that for those who share this doctrine? More than Jesus paying for you?

As a Catholic, 'no' we don't believe 'OSAS' that is strange and alien and really rather new in terms of Christianity as a whole - to be honest - to us considering the amount of times Scripture mentions staying on the path..

It is not that we don't 'believe' we do 'believe' - but that the 'saved' bit is going a little bit overboard as regards ones own status etc.

Perhaps it's a really cool thing for some to proclaim that they are 'saved' but that is really not what Old Christianity does - they say they are on the 'path' and seek the face of Christ. They are only words, and I don't think they should divide people, but sincerely there is A LOT to discuss as regards the Old way and the New way..

Perhaps we'll be sent somebody who can reconcile this, I do hope so. In the meantime, I find myself drawn more closely to the Old Religion because it makes more sense as regards Scripture and the Tradition you find all over the world that lives still.

Didn't Christ say "by your patience you will save your souls" and "whoever perseveres until the end, will be saved"? Paul utters many similar themes too but I'm too lazy to write them...
OSAS seems to have its roots in Luther's own tortured conscience...wondering whether or not he'd be saved - a scruple I've dealt with myself - but Christ won't withdraw the graces necessary for Salvation, since God desires all Men to be saved.

lmaopml

lazybones32 wrote: »

Didn't Christ say "by your patience you will save your souls" and "whoever perseveres until the end, will be saved"? Paul utters many similar themes too but I'm too lazy to write them...
OSAS seems to have its roots in Luther's own tortured conscience...wondering whether or not he'd be saved - a scruple I've dealt with myself - but Christ won't withdraw the graces necessary for Salvation, since God desires all Men to be saved.

Perhaps it is out of Luthers own Soul - However, he was only human, just like everybody else. The 'Body of Christ' is Scriptural and is the Church of course in every age..

When you persevere that's when you are most like Christ, and that doesn't mean you get 'thanked' on boards.ie, it means you don't get thanked at all in real life....don't mind boards - or maybe the odd time you might.. ;-)

They call it the perseverence of the Saints - it's the road less traveled, the narrow path etc.

So, the question is are you persevering for yourself or for Christ? I think that's a good question any Christian could ask himself or herself. Is it only 'my' salvation I seek? Or do I wish to be Christ to others? That's a big question I think..

SoulandForm

lmaopml wrote: »

Perhaps it is out of Luthers own Soul - However, he was only human, just like everybody else. The 'Body of Christ' is Scriptural and is the Church of course in every age..

When you persevere that's when you are most like Christ, and that doesn't mean you get 'thanked' on boards.ie, it means you don't get thanked at all in real life....don't mind boards - or maybe the odd time you might.. ;-)

They call it the perseverence of the Saints - it's the road less traveled, the narrow path etc.

So, the question is are you persevering for yourself or for Christ? I think that's a good question any Christian could ask himself or herself. Is it only 'my' salvation I seek? Or do I wish to be Christ to others? That's a big question I think..

Luther did not believe in Once Saved Always Saved. Lutherans today do not believe it- it is against Scripture.

There are two understandings of asceticism- one is trying to atone for your sins and earn God's mercy, I think this is a false approach and goes against scripture. The other is one of purification- which Luther acknowledge's in The Liberty of the Christian but it somehow got lost within the polemics.

The Pietist movement in Lutheranism did though bring it back.

lmaopml

SoulandForm wrote: »

Luther did not believe in Once Saved Always Saved. Lutherans today do not believe it- it is against Scripture.

There are two understandings of asceticism- one is trying to atone for your sins and earn God's mercy, I think this is a false approach and goes against scripture. The other is one of purification- which Luther acknowledge's in The Liberty of the Christian but it somehow got lost within the polemics.

The Pietist movement in Lutheranism did though bring it back.

I know Luther didn't believe it - he was, after all a fallen away Catholic - a rebel of his time, and for his own reasons, he knew Catholics he didn't like ( nothing new there ) ...he did what he did, and what followed happened..
I think it must be a very difficult thing to judge whether another is 'earning' salvation or simply had faith and did good - Luther seemed to want to draw a line - his line.

I admit it must be difficult to understand 'Atonement' and what it means for the Christian soul - I think one can take the 'Atonement' too far when Scripture is read with a doctrine of 'this' and how it effects 'me' soley in mind and not a mystical approach that encompasses a persons very own participation in the salvation of the world.

SoulandForm

lazybones32 wrote: »

Didn't Christ say "by your patience you will save your souls" and "whoever perseveres until the end, will be saved"? Paul utters many similar themes too but I'm too lazy to write them...
OSAS seems to have its roots in Luther's own tortured conscience...wondering whether or not he'd be saved - a scruple I've dealt with myself - but Christ won't withdraw the graces necessary for Salvation, since God desires all Men to be saved.

No it doesnt.

OSAS had its root in Calvin- a very different man to Luther, but more than that it has its roots in late capitalism in the USA which is miles from the thought world of a Germanic peasant in the late Middle Ages.

The Reformation was bound to come given how the Papacy sought to enforce Latin norms on Germanic and Celtic Europe. The reason for the radical secularization in the Free State if you ask me is the Council of Tallaght and Cardinal Cullen cut off Roman Catholicism in Ireland from its roots in the "folk soul" if you will and enforced a piety such as Rome would have as the ideal at that time.

The roots of Lutheranism are in Rhineland mysticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mysticism

lmaopml

SoulandForm wrote: »

No it doesnt.

OSAS had its root in Calvin- a very different man to Luther, but more than that it has its roots in late capitalism in the USA which is miles from the thought world of a Germanic peasant in the late Middle Ages.

The Reformation was bound to come given how the Papacy sought to enforce Latin norms on Germanic and Celtic Europe. The reason for the radical secularization in the Free State if you ask me is the Council of Tallaght and Cardinal Cullen cut off Roman Catholicism in Ireland from its roots in the "folk soul" if you will and enforced a piety such as Rome would have as the ideal at that time.

The roots of Lutheranism are in Rhineland mysticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mysticism

I think there is a 'simplicity' of Christ and not a political version or oppinion that crosses borders and indeed minds too. There is a terrible beauty there...

SoulandForm

lmaopml wrote: »

I think there is a 'simplicity' of Christ and not a political version or oppinion that crosses borders and indeed minds too. There is a terrible beauty there...

Yes that is true- but people are still different and therefore have different approaches, needs, strengths, weaknesses and virtues.

SoulandForm

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:5.

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14.

leonil7 wrote: »

infant baptism (to be granted salvation) in itself is a part of 'work', a qualifier in the part of man. something man has to do or undergo so he can gain something. that is the very basic definition of 'works', or in this case salvation by works.

so as you can see, when you use the word 'granted' what you really mean 'gained'. if you got yourself baptized, you gained it. if not, you dont gain it. you should therefore have yourself baptized- an act/work you should do so you can gain 'salvation'- in essence a reward for your effort.

lmaopml

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes that is true- but people are still different and therefore have different approaches, needs, strengths, weaknesses and virtues.

Exactly - which means that there are 'Soldiers of Christ' that perhaps we in our every day lives experience the benefits of but may or may not be aware of....very often we may take them for granted - that happens sometimes.

Approach everybody who loves Christ with his peace, and get to know them - they are mostly fabulous and lovely warm people, just normal people with warm hearts - and let his Providence be our guide no matter the tide, or any ill wind..there are so very many ill winds - I'm quite sure they will not stop, actually they never have.. ;-)

Someday, we may all meet and see each other as we are - perfectly.

Be kind always. It costs 'nothing' to be kind.

Leave the ultimate judgement of a 'person' up to Christ and let the Church as a whole be the voice, that's her job, guidance and pointing the way, she doesn't 'judge' she just is a body of people pointing the way - be part of that voice, but don't ever think you speak for her on your own.

Never ever condemn a soul, never sit in judgement over a person you speak with - we just don't know..that's not our job. Our job is the 'Good News' - knowing Christ is the 'Good News' - so smile, be kind, and enjoy life for the right reason, love the right things, stand up for what is good. Always, be kind, always proclaim that you are a Christian - and never be ashamed of that.

antiskeptic

antiskeptic wrote:

Sure, one can point to snippets here and there which would, on first sight, appear to indicate such a thing possible. These have responses which I find adequate (usually commencing with the attempt to understand the surrounding context and culture into which they were written). TBH, it's the dearth of sustained, reasoned argument in the bible which hammers the final nails in for me on this matter. Paul spends half of Romans describing the way of salvation in close, forensic detail .. and omits to spend other than arguable half-sentences here and there on losing it? Implausible.

lazybones32 wrote: »

Didn't Christ say "by your patience you will save your souls" and "whoever perseveres until the end, will be saved"? Paul utters many similar themes too but I'm too lazy to write them...

This is precisely the kind of thing I was referring to.

antiskeptic

lmaopml wrote: »

How do you in particular know you are 'saved'?

Was it through some experience where you understood something or were granted a gift of the Holy Spirit on you very own journey?

Is that the 'point' of existence that you 'know' you are saved right here and now, no judgement, just Jesus paying for you? Or, is there more than that for those who share this doctrine? More than Jesus paying for you?

The book of Romans can be divided up into two halves or themes. The first half up to end chapter 11 deals with the issue of salvation: how it comes about (faith), how it doesn't come about (works / faith and works), dealing with objections to the doctrine of salvation by faith alone - one of which being "but then, what use is there in being a Jew if Jews aren't the chosen race"

He starts chapter 12 with the exhortation: "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God..". This commences the second theme, which is addressed to those who have "been given the right to be called children of God" (a.k.a. the saved, a.k.a. brothers and sisters). From start chapter 12 to end of book he is dealing with the question "how then should we (those who are saved) live. How are we to behave and act and be in light of our (in the case you have been so saved) having being saved by faith?

-

Salvation isn't the point of life. Salvation is the start of life. The point of life is to live in the freedom and joy and gratitude that comes with having been given such a gift.

Salvation by works cannot but result in ball watching - the ball being salvation. And because the focus must be on own salvation life must be stripped of joy and freedom and gratitude. Perhaps one can be grateful for the possibility of salvation (hoping that one scores adequately so as to finally obtain it). But not as grateful as one is saved - period.*


*I speak of this in potential only. You can have saved like me who take it for granted. Who don't fully appreciate what it is I have been given. The joy and the freedom and gratitude are, when they are there, sublime. But not there as often as should be I fear**. Perhaps I need to read the second half of Romans more often

**not as in "craven fear"

lmaopml

There are 73 books of the Bible - or 66 for some since the reformation. There is a doctrine or two that started, one is Sola Fide, and one is Sola Scriptura. It's important to know 'Scripture' I think that's a given for every Christian - and I know absolutely that you are a Christian, I hope you recognise a Christian heart too.

The Bible is more than the Book of Romans..which by the way is absolutely part of Catholic Scripture, never edited, never misunderstood.

Sola Scriptura - See...and think on it...
James 2:18



But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.




I know this is probably a 'classic' quote - but if you could just think that perhaps, maybe just perhaps that people are not only 'working' their way - they have 'faith' too. The Church does not teach salvation by 'works' no - that's not true. The Church teaches faith in Jesus Christ, she always has and always will - and that 'works' of love will follow. Nobody 'works' their way to salvation. Please don't misrepresent us...it's not fair to do that.

SoulandForm

Faith is not quite the same thing as belief. I believe in the existence of Enda Kenny- I dont have faith in him though.

santing

lmaopml wrote: »

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

I know this is probably a 'classic' quote - but if you could just think that perhaps, maybe just perhaps that people are not only 'working' their way - they have 'faith' too. The Church does not teach salvation by 'works' no - that's not true. The Church teaches faith in Jesus Christ, she always has and always will - and that 'works' of love will follow. Nobody 'works' their way to salvation. Please don't misrepresent us...it's not fair to do that.

Maybe this is enough misrepresentation:
Trente Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

antiskeptic

lmaopml wrote: »

The Bible is more than the Book of Romans.

And the book of Romans a lot more than..

James 2:18

Which was the point I (or rather Paul) is making. Paul lays out a treatise on the subject. He takes half a book of close, reasoned argument. You can't counter that argument with a verse. You need to counter it with a counter-treatise. And that counter-treatise doesn't exist.

The Church does not teach salvation by 'works' no - that's not true. The Church teaches faith in Jesus Christ, she always has and always will - and that 'works' of love will follow. Nobody 'works' their way to salvation. Please don't misrepresent us...it's not fair to do that.

The doctrine of the Roman church is faith & works. For as sure as night follows day, if your works are found wanting then you will be damned. You might say that the problem of a lack of sufficient works lay in the lack of faith - in which case you've made faith a work.

A work is anything defined as having to stem from within the person themselves.

leonil7

don't know why you quoted this, you must have an issue in mind you don't want to say or write. however quoting this does not answer the previous response i made.

SoulandForm wrote: »

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:5.

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14.

leonil7

its right under your nose - so to speak, no need to get mystic or esoteric about it.

- by faith.

it is the whole treatise of Heb 11 and can be summed up in one statement: "By faith we understand.." v3

lmaopml wrote: »

How do you in particular know you are 'saved'?

Was it through some experience where you understood something or were granted a gift of the Holy Spirit on you very own journey?

Is that the 'point' of existence that you 'know' you are saved right here and now, no judgement, just Jesus paying for you? Or, is there more than that for those who share this doctrine? More than Jesus paying for you?

As a Catholic, 'no' we don't believe 'OSAS' that is strange and alien and really rather new in terms of Christianity as a whole - to be honest - to us considering the amount of times Scripture mentions staying on the path..

It is not that we don't 'believe' we do 'believe' - but that the 'saved' bit is going a little bit overboard as regards ones own status etc.

Perhaps it's a really cool thing for some to proclaim that they are 'saved' but that is really not what Old Christianity does - they say they are on the 'path' and seek the face of Christ. They are only words, and I don't think they should divide people, but sincerely there is A LOT to discuss as regards the Old way and the New way..

Perhaps we'll be sent somebody who can reconcile this, I do hope so. In the meantime, I find myself drawn more closely to the Old Religion because it makes more sense as regards Scripture and the Tradition you find all over the world that lives still.

SoulandForm

leonil7 wrote: »

don't know why you quoted this, you must have an issue in mind you don't want to say or write. however quoting this does not answer the previous response i made.

Without Baptism by BOTH water and the Spirit it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven according to the words of the Lord; and He than makes clear that He wishes infants to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

In their fanatical zeal to distance themselves from Rome you and those like you are shutting off the Kingdom of Heaven from your own children; and so purchasing for yourself what exactly?

leonil7

there is no teaching in scripture about 'baptism by both water and spirit'.

this is an old argument used by the rcc with blinders on and shows the way they read the scripture. the entire chapter of john 3 has no discussion or mention of baptism or baby baptism in particular.

you should have stated beforehand that for yourself you have assumed 'born of water' = 'baptism'. it is not the same thing, and this is where you are in error.

SoulandForm wrote: »

Without Baptism by BOTH water and the Spirit it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven according to the words of the Lord; and He than makes clear that He wishes infants to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

In their fanatical zeal to distance themselves from Rome you and those like you are shutting off the Kingdom of Heaven from your own children; and so purchasing for yourself what exactly?

hinault

A soul in receipt of Grace, it follows that that same soul would do good works.
In fact it is logical that this would happen ie. grace informs good works.

I wonder did the OP follow up on any of the suggestions here?

gerbilgranny

I was brought up a Catholic and never left the church, but for about 5 years I also went to an evangelical community church - it was an enriching experience, but I couldn't keep spending 4 hours in church every Sunday between Mass and attending the other church.

I was blessed to encounter The Alpha course in 2005 - it was run on an ecumenical basis in my town, and this in turn enabled me to meet some wonderful people from other denominations.

Following on from that, I got to go on a 'Walk to Emmaus' weekend in 2007, and am now delighted to be able to attend monthly Gatherings of 'the Emmaus community' in Dublin. It's been great nourishment for my soul, and the fellowship and prayer support are wonderful.

I was almost surprised to discover that it's actually the RC church that feels 'right' for me - I honestly think that the Mass is a marvelous way to worship God in fellowship with other people. I would be liberal on a lot of issues, so wouldn't agree with the official teaching of the RC church on some topics, but thank God in my local church there's an ethos of welcome and acceptance.

In short, I'm a flawed Catholic who is very blessed to have many joyous and helpful links with Christians of other traditions.

lmaopml

userofbuses wrote: »

Apologies for not getting back to this thread sooner. I was very ill last week and had a lot on at work too. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. I have so many different things to say that it’s difficult to write a post that is not a rambling mess. Sorry!

Meh, this can be the 'rambling mess' hive at times of boards, so don't feel bad about that.

There were some great suggestions. Please keep them coming.


Reading the Bible from start to finish is a New Year’s resolution of mine. I read it on public transport. I have gotten some funny looks already. Ireland is a strange country. The vast majority of the country say (on their census form) they are Catholic but very few people ever talk about God or Jesus and those that do are probably thought to be a bit weird.

I wouldn't go that far; I suppose it's a matter of who one mixes with, whether the book you take out is one that is 'owned' by you or whether it's something you hide and read - remember when you mention Christ never be ashamed of it. Never be ashamed to say you are a Christian - that goes with the territory! Stand tall, stand proud, and don't pay more than the attention due to anybody who tells you what is appropriate and modern reading material, unless you worry about kind of stuff, in that case well maybe don't whip out your Bible on the Luas just yet.

Even the most ardent supporter of the Irish Catholic Church would have to admit that the Irish Catholic Church is in a very bad place right now and really lost its way over the years.

Actually, I'm Catholic, not only 'Irish' Catholic - I suppose it's difficult to see sometimes the body of people beyond the homeland - and yes, indeed, the Church is and always will be either celebrated or not, that's always happened since Christ - unfortunately bad people are among us, and that won't change...the world is full up with just 'people' - some who exemplify Christ, and are his 'hands' and others who really don't, and are out for themselves. The choice is ours to own our own contribution.

Even the charisma of the new Pope may not stop the decline of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Cultural Catholicism really hurt the Catholic Church in Ireland. Being a de facto state religion was very bad for the Catholic Church in Ireland. I believe that Archbishop Martin, someone I have huge respect for, said that we are the most catechised Catholic country but the least evangelised. A smaller but more evangelised Church would surely be better.

Well, that's something that perhaps I as a Catholic would not particularly agree with. I believe there is a 'seed' - Ireland may very well be 'Cultural' which is a 'good' word, but 'Cultural' in the sense of being 'Catholic' seems to be a 'bad' word for some....a problem... - and there may very well be 'Cultural' Catholics - but I'm inclined not to be so very judgemental about them - I think it's a little early to sit in judgement on those people of faith - considering you don't know them.

As I said before, it is extremely difficult to want to be part of a Church while certain members of its leadership seriously misunderstood and mishandled the past events resulting in huge harm to a great many people.
Am I a closet Protestant?

Possibly; If you are looking for puritanism than that's not what Catholicism is all about - it's about 'sinners' who know it.

Probably given my theological reservations. However I will educate myself more about specific Catholic theology rather than making rash decisions. I would be willing to bet that a majority, perhaps not an overwhelming majority but a majority nonetheless, of Irish Catholics would “fail” a multiple choice theology test to see how much they agreed with Church teachings. I bet most would be Anglicans but wouldn’t dream of taking the very bold step to actually convert.

Yes, that's probably true, many may not 'live' it, while very many others do... but that doesn't make them less Catholic, I think that is the crux of the issue - of course they are 'Catholic' and always welcome in the fold, who are you to judge who is Catholic? - they are, if they acknowledge that they are not perfect and while we change Christ does not, we are the ones that fall short - but you have to remember that walking into the 'presence' of Christ is not about 'me' at all - It's about wanting to be in his presence, and not looking at your neighbour glancing sideways - that can be a hard and difficult thing for some.

I also worry about walking into a “Far Away Fields are Always Greener Situation”. I am sure I would find something wrong with every Church – which is not surprising given the Churches are for Sinners and not for Saints.

I suggest therein lies your problem - yes, the Church is about making sinners into Saints. Not pronouncing you a Saint now, it's not like the Oscars.

I will most likely go along to an Alpha Course as a way of finding my feet. Longer term I do want to get involved somehow in apologetics or an adult Sunday school. This will mean study and getting the appropriate training and qualifications but is something that I am willing to do.

I hope you do so - I think if you are serious about your faith than I think you should count your blessings that you can even 'choose' whether to explore it or not - there are very many who don't have that choice - true story!. Don't mind dropping in to light a candle or say a prayer in their own locality.

Thanks for replying everyone.

You are very welcome! Always.

katydid

userofbuses wrote: »

Hi wondering if people had some advice or maybe someone has a similar experience to me in relation to belief in God and getting involved in a church. Apologies, this is a fairly lengthy post but I would really appreciate it if you persevered to the end. J Apologies if I have posted in the wrong place.

I grew up in a Catholic family. Essentially I went along with Catholicism throughout my teenage years. I didn’t really think too hard about faith. I didn’t really think atheism was true. I liked the way that Catholicism is part of the fabric of growing up in Ireland: baptism, communion, confirmation, marriage and funerals. I was born in the early eighties into a well-off and quite liberal Catholic parish so most of the nasty elements of catholic influence on Irish society passed me by during my teenage years, though not entirely. My teenage years were before the full extent of the child abuse scandals was known. So at the time, my view of the Catholic Church was that it was a quant relic of the past.
I left Ireland for a long time after university in the mid-2000s. At that point I had an existential – “what’s it all about?” period. I read widely about religion – I was heavily influenced by prominent apologists like William Lane Craig, NT Wright, CS Lewis, Tim Keller & Alvin Plantinga. I came out the other end of this very difficult period as a Christian believer but not a member of a Church.

I arrived back in Ireland a little while ago hoping to finally get involved in a church. I would be really reluctant to stop being Catholic and cross to a Protestant denomination but it’s difficult to get enthusiastic about Catholicism. The leadership who presided over cover-ups of child abuse are largely still there and it is difficult to believe in them and take them seriously. For example, their influence in the recent abortion debate was counter-productive from the point of view of the anti-abortion side because of the recent past in dealing with child abuse.

From my time abroad I have realised that Irish Catholicism is different to Catholicism in other countries. Here, it is hard to get involved beyond just going to mass on a weekly basis. Fellowship is lacking. People don’t seem to read the Bible at all. I would like to get involved in something like a book-club, bible study or apologetics, preferably with a group of people in their twenties of thirties. I can’t find anything like that in Catholic Churches but maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

There are a few issues that I have with the theology of Catholicism. The biggest would be the possibility of salvation through good works rather than just through Grace alone. I have a few other secondary problems but these I can overlook.

So, if you have stayed with me so far, is there a Catholic Church in the Dublin area which provides an avenue for thoughtful fellowship? A church where most people actually believe in Christianity rather than practicing a cultural faith? A church with a slightly younger demographic, including men like me in their early thirties? Failing that, is there a Protestant Church that does this?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I understand why you would wish to stay with Roman Catholicism; you have a right to remain in your faith and feel comfortable with. But on the other hand, the level of your comfort with the institution will dictate whether you can remain or not. I'm not sure if going to a particular church will help, as no matter how liberal or open an individual priest or church is, he and it are part of the greater Roman Catholic organisation.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from, and maybe you'll understand what I'm trying to say. I was like you, born Roman Catholic, in a relatively comfortable middle class suburb. I had no particular issues with the church in terms of abusing priests or dictatorial nuns - the opposite, in fact. The local priests were fine, and the nuns in the school I attended were sweet if unworldly.
But when I was fourteen or fifteen I began to think of many thing; the fact that the laity had no say in their own church, the fact that women were not considered to be equal to men, the church's unforgiving attitude to sexuality, which resulted in women being forced into unwanted pregnancies by the lack of contraception. And this was before the whole child abuse thing emerged...so I just stopped going to mass.
I had contact, through friends, with the Church of Ireland, and I had reason to go to some services, and found it really good. I loved the solemnity of the services, the music, and the welcome I got. It's hard to describe, but all I can say is I just felt at home. Over the years I got more courage and went to more services, and eventually officially became a member. I have found people open and welcoming, and I found an openness to change and to difference I had never encountered before. Theologically, the differences were minimal - how many Roman Catholics actually believe in transubstantiation, let's face it?
When I joined officially, the vote had just been taken to allow women priests. I think that's what pushed me to join officially; I thought it was great that the people had had a say and made a difference. And what blew me away is how easy the whole thing was; it wasn't like in England where people threw wobblies and left in a huff. People just accepted it and got on with things.
All I can offer you in terms of advice is go with what feels right for you. Try out different things and find the place you feel comfortable. It might be that it's enough for you to find a liberal priest and parish, but you may feel that that isn't enough to get round the bigger picture. Try the Church of Ireland - just go along to a service and talk to people. Try other churches, and take your time to make up your mind.
But don't be disappointed if you don't find a church where everyone is fully committed and spiritual; you will always find people who attend religious services for other reasons, family, social or otherwise. You must put your own needs first, because once you find your spiritual home, you will fell so good.

katydid

userofbuses wrote: »

Apologies for not getting back to this thread sooner. I was very ill last week and had a lot on at work too. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. I have so many different things to say that it’s difficult to write a post that is not a rambling mess. Sorry!





I bet most would be Anglicans but wouldn’t dream of taking the very bold step to actually convert.

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I'm not trying to convert you, honestly, but I would just like to say that you'd be surprised how many people have taken that step. In my CofI church, there are several former Roman Catholics, and even more interestingly, I've recently completed a course where people were training to be lay ministers, and of the class of fifteen, five were former Roman Catholics.
All I'm saying is you wouldn't be alone :pac: