[Superthread] Mayweather vs Pacman **NO STREAMING REQUESTS**

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

Effective aggression? Neither had that to any real discernible level

Clear punching. Neither had that. I think we can all agree there. Woeful connections from both men.

Defense. Hold on, Manny wasn't hit any more regularly than Floyd, yet Floyd is getting all the credit? Manny's blocking and reaction times were very good.

Ring generalship? It has zero to do here. Both men were comfortable and always in charge of where they were. Manny pressed a lot more and Floyd defended a lot more.

Floyd had cleaner punching in more rounds for me.

Again , i felt cleaner punches landed more often from Floyd.

Manny was perceived to have pressed more but looked more like plodding to me and ineffective.

walshb

From the poster in the article linked by Henno. Might be worth re-watching the fight with these rds in mind. Rd for rd basis. I will try it, and I WILL give an honest assessment. I have always been honest in assessing fights and have got on here plenty of times to admit I got something wrong.


"my summary of the fight from analyzing it in depth. pac clearly won 6 rounds: 3,4,6,7,8, and 10. floyd clearly won 5 rounds: 1,2,5,11,12. The 9th round really was a toss up if i had to lean i would probably give it to pac for simply landing the harder punches. An even round is also fine and giving it to floyd isn't wrong at all. So my card would be either 7-5 pac, 6-5-1 even pac or a draw 6-6.

my reasoning: round 3 a lot of people seem to give to floyd but I can't see why. pac outlanded him in total punches, power punches, and had the best punch of the round. round 6 floyd actually outlanded pac 15-14 but most of floyd's punches were jabs while all of pacs were power to the head and body and he also had floyd wobbled. A clear example of a round where quality over quantity trumps. Round 8 was also an example of quality over quantity as floyd outlanded pac 11-9 but pac stunned him with 3 great flush punches. floyd's power punches lacked any authority or flushness in this round and pac landed the 3 best punches of the round that slightly troubled floyd so I think he deserves this round."

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Floyd had cleaner punching in more rounds for me.

Again , i felt cleaner punches landed more often from Floyd.

Manny was perceived to have pressed more but looked more like plodding to me and ineffective.

That is where subjectivity comes into it. I saw very little clean power or connection shots from either man. Floyd's shots were very poor in comparison to previous displays from him. Even vs. Madana, where I thought his offense was weak, it was still a deal better than vs. Manny. Very weak and ineffective vs. Manny. It seems that didn't matter to the compu box boys on the night. When Floyd extended his arms they were counted as landed.

The disparity between the two fighters for landed shots is ridiculous.

BTW, Sportmails Jeff Powelll scored the fight a draw.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

That is where subjectivity comes into it. I saw very little clean power or connection shots from either man. Floyd's shots were very poor in comparison to previous displays from him. Even vs. Madana, where I thought his offense was weak, it was still a deal better than vs. Manny. Very weak and ineffective vs. Manny. It seems that didn't matter to the compu box boys on the night. When Floyd extended his arms they were counted as landed.

The disparity between the tow fighter for landed shots is ridiculous.

Yep that is true but they must have been something land from ringside to come up with the scores. Compubox is certainly not the be all and end all of the fights and has been proven before but it gives a rough estimate at least to go by.

That's a good thread from over at the scene there as well. I must go back and watch again in slo mo this time to see can I see where they are coming from. But using the 4 selections on how to score the rounds I feel they apply more to Floyd than Manny. But obviously there are plenty who disagree which is fine. But at the end of the day its not how you win , just that you do.
And it goes down as a wide UD.

Henno30

T-K-O wrote: »

Interesting thread that one

Civilized, by boxingscene's standards.

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Yep that is true but they must have been something land from ringside to come up with the scores. Compubox is certainly not the be all and end all of the fights and has been proven before but it gives a rough estimate at least to go by.

That's a good thread from over at the scene there as well. I must go back and watch again in slo mo this time to see can I see where they are coming from. But using the 4 selections on how to score the rounds I feel they apply more to Floyd than Manny. But obviously there are plenty who disagree which is fine. But at the end of the day its not how you win , just that you do.
And it goes down as a wide UD.

The 4 areas you used are IMO very subjective in relation to this fight, which was very disjointed and lacking real flow for many parts. It's very difficult to nail it down as to who was the winner in the categories.

Take ring generalship. Was either man really in control of the ring, or in control of the other man? It seemed to me that both fought at a quite pedestrian and staged and leisurely pace. Neither man really imposed their presence in the ring to make it very uncomfortable for the their opponent.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

The 4 areas you used are IMO very subjective in relation to this fight, which was very disjointed and lacking real flow for many parts. It's very difficult to nail it down as to who was the winner in the categories.

Take ring generalship. Was either man really in control of the ring, or in control of the other man? It seemed to me that both fought at a quite pedestrian and staged and leisurely pace. Neither man really imposed their presence in the ring to make it very uncomfortable for the ir opponent.

I think for a few of the rounds Floyd's jab gives the impression that he is more in control than manny just bobbing and weaving and not cutting the ring off. Ring generalship as I said it something that maybe is subjective and is marked by the feel of the fight on the night.

Floyd tends to dictate the distance and pace of the fight which is what he does best and can be seen in the fight as you described as pedestrian from both guys. But that's the pace Floyd wants to fight , its no coincidence. Manny is usually a whirlwind and fights at a frantic pace but Floyd took that away from him which shows his ability to neutralize his opponents.

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

I think for a few of the rounds Floyd's jab gives the impression that he is more in control than manny just bobbing and weaving and not cutting the ring off. Ring generalship as I said it something that maybe is subjective and is marked by the feel of the fight on the night.

Floyd tends to dictate the distance and pace of the fight which is what he does best and can be seen in the fight as you described as pedestrian from both guys. But that's the pace Floyd wants to fight , its no coincidence. Manny is usually a whirlwind and fights at a frantic pace but Floyd took that away from him which shows his ability to neutralize his opponents.

But you cannot know that Manny wanted to fight at a frenetic pace? I and I am sure many others would promote a more slowed down and educated aggression vs someone like Floyd. So, did Manny deliberately play it with less intensity? And how much less intensity was it. Watch him vs. Oscar and Cotto. Quite measured and paced and thought out attacks and movements.

Henno30

Floyd's jab won the fight.

T-K-O

Henno30 wrote: »

Civilized, by boxingscene's standards.

Aye, similar to the place I hang out

walshb

Henno30 wrote: »

Floyd's jab won the fight.

If that is the case then it's a real weak way for him to win it IMO. I will say that too many times Manny waited and Floyd took the play away by jabbing or right crossing and moving away. Landed or not he was taking the play away a lot of the time.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

But you cannot know that Manny wanted to fight at a frenetic pace? I and I am sure many others would promote a more slowed down and educated aggression vs someone like Floyd. So, did Manny deliberately play it with less intensity? And how much less intensity was it. Watch him vs. Oscar and Cotto. Quite measured and paced and thought out attacks and movements.

Obviously I cannot say for sure but if his gameplan was to fight at a slower pace than he normally does which is undeniable imo , then the blame falls on both Manny and Freddie. Nobody is ever going to beat Floyd fighting a slow pace on the outside. Surely they knew they couldn't allow Floyd to dictate the pace and distance so easy.

Just on the other point , the jab is probably the most important punch in boxing. It sets up most attacks for floyd and the same should apply with Manny but his jab was pitiful on saturday. You need a double jab to get in close enough to Floyd to let off an attack. Poor tactics from Manny and Freddie.

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Obviously I cannot say for sure but if his gameplan was to fight at a slower pace than he normally does which is undeniable imo , then the blame falls on both Manny and Freddie. Nobody is ever going to beat Floyd fighting a slow pace on the outside. Surely they knew they couldn't allow Floyd to dictate the pace and distance so easy.

Just on the other point , the jab is probably the most important punch in boxing. It sets up most attacks for floyd and the same should apply with Manny but his jab was pitiful on saturday. You need a double jab to get in close enough to Floyd to let off an attack. Poor tactics from Manny and Freddie.

This is what I am on about. People are dissecting and criticizing Manny's performance all the time and making out that Floyd had a great day at the office. He did not. He didn't land a significant punch the whole night. Floyd's pace was every bit as stagnant and pedestrian as Manny's. It takes two to make a fight. Personally I thought Manny fought a good and clever fight. He barely took any punishment. Could it have been better? Yes. But you must remember who he is facing.

Both men for me had less than great performances, but as a boxing fan, Floyd most definitely let me down more. I expected a clear cut and decisive win. He didn't come close to delivering this. He is taller, rangier, naturally bigger and was the obvious favorite. He failed much more IMO on the night than the smaller and much less favored opponent.

I will tune in in September and I hope in his last fight he decides to go out with some real authority and not deliver a poor performance. If it's against Garcia I hope he really hammers home his talent on Garcia.

Gimme the Floyd from the Mosley fight and I'll be happy.

Panic E

With one arm. Let's not forget that, no wonder he had no jab game.

That's a really serious injury he has I was reading up on it last night.

He may never fight again. Lomachenko had Manny winning also btw.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

This is what I am on about. People are dissecting and criticizing Manny's performance all the time and making out that Floyd had a great day at the office. He did not. He didn't land a significant punch the whole night. Floyd's pace was every bit as stagnant and pedestrian as Manny's. It takes two to make a fight. Personally I thought Manny fought a good and clever fight. He barely took any punishment. Could it have been better? Yes. But you must remember who he is facing.

Both men for me had less than great performances, but as a boxing fan, Floyd most definitely let me down more. I expected a clear cut and decisive win. He didn't come close to delivering this. He is taller, rangier, naturally bigger and was the obvious favorite. He failed much more IMO on the night than the smaller and much less favored opponent.

I will tune in in September and I hope in his last fight he decides to go out with some real authority and not deliver a poor performance. If it's against Garcia I hope he really hammers home his talent on Garcia.

Gimme the Floyd from the Mosley fight and I'll be happy.

Floyd is the undefeated champion , everybody knows his style is defensive its up to Manny or whoever the opponent is to bring it to Floyd and get him out of his comfort zone like Maidana and Oscar did otherwise he just going into autopilot and cruising to victory just like he did on saturday. And that blame falls on Manny IMO of course

At this stage of his career Floyd isn't picking to get in a war if he doesn't have to and can you blame him? I totally agree that I would love to see him come out and dominate Garcia or whoever he chooses to fight in September but I was hoping manny was going to bring his A game and force Floyd to bring his A game as well but that never materialized unfortunately.

Gimme the Floyd that beat Gati half to death. People forget Floyd wasn't always a defensive fighter. He went through plenty of years in entertaining fights.

walshb

Panic E wrote: »

He may never fight again. Lomochenko had Manny winning also btw.

So, I don't feel such a mug now!

pac_man, like I said, you thinking that 114/114 in the Lucas win over Ruslan was fair is far more more comedic than me maybe thinking a draw the other night was fair.

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Gimme the Floyd that beat Gati half to death. People forget Floyd wasn't always a defensive fighter. He went through plenty of years in entertaining fights.

This is it. That was special. I don't think he has that all around offense at this stage, but surely he can deliver better than the last few performances? Like I said, the offensive display vs. Maidana was a deal better than the other night, and that only hammers home how weak the other night's offensive display was. Plus, Manny was not near as intense of in his face as Maidana was.

Talib Fiasco

Mosley, who also picked Mayweather to win prior to the fight thought Manny won as well. I still think Floyd won but to say it was convincing is just wrong...it was none of the sort. The 118-110 score was up there as bad as CJ Ross' card on the Manny/Bradley 1 fight and the Canelo/Floyd fight. At least they picked the right guy that won but that score was nothing short of a disgrace. Floyd simply did not do enough to win that many rounds...Manny didn't do enough to win more than 5 rounds but to say he only won two rounds is a blatant joke

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

This is it. That was special. I don't think he has that all around offense at this stage, but surely he can deliver better than the last few performances? Like I said, the offensive display vs. Maidana was a deal better than the other night, and that only hammers home how weak the other night's offensive display was. Plus, Manny was not near as intense of in his face as Maidana was.

Yes I agree he could do more but at this stage of his career if he doesn't have to he will just cruise to victory and at 38 can you really blame him?

The offensive display was better becasue Maidana forced him to trade which everyone thought Manny would do in his own way but failed to do so possibly because of the tactics deployed. To be more calculated and what not not but that was just never going to work. I'm sure Canelo would agree.

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Yes I agree he could do more but at this stage of his career if he doesn't have to he will just cruise to victory and at 38 can you really blame him?
.

That is just it. He cruised, but he didn't cruise to victory. That would suggest an easy night and a clear win. I cannot see how anyone could see that as a cruising win for Floyd. It was as disjointed and weak as I have seen any Mayweather win.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

That is just it. He cruised, but he didn't cruise to victory. That would suggest an easy night and a clear win. I cannot see how anyone could see that as a cruising win for Floyd. It was as disjointed and weak as I have seen any Mayweather win.

Well manny had maybe two good moments of combinations and pressure and Floyd just shook it off like it was nothing. Other than that Manny did nothing to pressure or get Floyd out of his comfort zone which resulted in Floyd boxing him on the outside and frustrating him and ended up with the UD.

I think if the 3 judges scored it 116-112 there wouldn't be as much discussion. The 118-110 seems to be pissing people off.

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

So, I don't feel such a mug now!

Most MMA fighters thought that Pacquaio won it too. Personally I felt it was a draw as I said earlier a la Jeff Powell

They should have been allowed to fight until there was a clear winner seeing as the rules apparently don't matter :pac:

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

Well manny had maybe two good moments of combinations and pressure and Floyd just shook it off like it was nothing. Other than that Manny did nothing to pressure or get Floyd out of his comfort zone which resulted in Floyd boxing him on the outside and frustrating him and ended up with the UD.

I think if the 3 judges scored it 116-112 there wouldn't be as much discussion. The 118-110 seems to be pissing people off.

Well, for some they had Manny the winner. I have no issue with the card scores as many rds were difficult to score.

You say Floyd boxed him on the outside. Boxed him with what? He wasn't scoring in any decisive manner from the outside. I admit that he was getting off more than Manny, but he wasn't landing. The shots were short and defelcetd and blocked mainly. Same with Manny's outside work.

My take is a draw or close win for either man. I can't see anything even approaching clear cut.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

Well, for some they had Manny the winner. I have no issue with the card scores as many rds were difficult to score.

You say Floyd boxed him on the outside. Boxed him with what? He wasn't scoring in any decisive manner from the outside. I admit that he was getting off more than Manny, but he wasn't landing. The shots were short and defelcetd and blocked mainly. Same with Manny's outside work.

My take is a draw or close win for either man. I can't see anything even approaching clear cut.

Jabs , straight rights , check hook when he backs up to the corner. I think our disagreement is on whether Floyd really landed enough to win the fight. IMO I seen enough connected clean shots to warrant him win the rounds. As I said I'm gonna go back and watch it slowed down if i can as well.

There's a couple of meme sites have short videos of the clean punches from mayweather if you can source them yourself. But I'm looking forward to the re-watch now regardless.

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

My take is a draw or close win for either man. I can't see anything even approaching clear cut.

Saying that most people who watch the replay are scoring it 7-5 to Manny.

I guess we were expecting more from him but that shouldn't dictate score.

Such a big disparity with the officials brings the whole thing into disrepute.

walshb

Panic E wrote: »

Such a big disparity with the officials brings the whole thing into disrepute.

The actual official card scores are not the issue. It's the insistence from many that only a Floyd win should have been the result, and that even entertaining a close fight or draw, or god forbid a Manny win is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. I have no issue with Floyd being awarded a win, and even with a large score, but to make out that it was the only result is wrong. A draw or close Manny victory is also a possibility here.

Like I said many times before and like others have said that close fights can have close cards or wide cards. If rds are close then they can go to one man all the time or none of the time or be split. The fight was closely fought in almost all rds. Each 3 minute duration was closely fought. No way either man impressed upon the other or clearly beat the other. No way.

Emmo-m-

walshb wrote: »

The actual official card scores are not the issue. It's the insistence from many that only a Floyd win should have been the result, and that even entertaining a close fight or draw, or god forbid a Manny win is ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. I have no issue with Floyd being awarded a win, and even with a large score, but to make out that it was the only result is wrong. A draw or close Manny victory is also a possibility here.

I just dont see it , but hey that's what the forums are for. Ill be watching intently the next 1 or 2 times I watch the fight back. Hopefully I have some more ammo to come back into this thread with

Panic E

Emmo-m- wrote: »

I'm looking forward to the re-watch now regardless.

x2. It says a lot about the fight though when the only highlight reels are of Floyd's dirty tactics

walshb

Emmo-m- wrote: »

I just dont see it , but hey that's what the forums are for. Ill be watching intently the next 1 or 2 times I watch the fight back. Hopefully I have some more ammo to come back into this thread with

You don't need to watch it feeling that you need to be vindicated. I will try watch it and I will gladly come back and say I got it wrong if that is the case. It's not a Manny vs. Floyd fan base issue with me. It's about fairness and reporting equally for both men. For me that certainly is not the case in many posts and commentaries.

BTW, if you happen to get a clear score for either man then let us know if the rds were very tight and close in your view, which would allow for maybe a different result from a different scorer.

Chrissybhoy

T-K-O wrote: »

' Everyone has said floyd won the rounds [most of them] ' I'm talking about Floyd Vs Manny.

You said he pot shotted his way to the w like most of his fights that's lies.