Yiddish in Ireland

riffmongous

I took an interest in Yiddish recently, it was always something I was aware of but never knew anything about beyond it being a language of european jews and a few songs I heard years ago (and as I found out later, from The Simpsons!), but since I started looking up a bit about it I have been fascinated by it. Then I saw an article on RTE today about the Jewish Museum in Dublin and thought it would be interesting to find out if anyone spoke Yiddish in Ireland? I assumed at first they would speak Hebrew and English, some possibly Irish but then I read that there was a large influx of Russian jewish immigrants at one point and would it be correct to assume their language was Yiddish? If anyone knows anything about this topic I would love to hear it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNy7IQtV_vA

feargale

riffmongous wrote: »

I took an interest in Yiddish recently, it was always something I was aware of but never knew anything about beyond it being a language of european jews and a few songs I heard years ago (and as I found out later, from The Simpsons!), but since I started looking up a bit about it I have been fascinated by it. Then I saw an article on RTE today about the Jewish Museum in Dublin and thought it would be interesting to find out if anyone spoke Yiddish in Ireland? I assumed at first they would speak Hebrew and English, some possibly Irish but then I read that there was a large influx of Russian jewish immigrants at one point and would it be correct to assume their language was Yiddish? If anyone knows anything about this topic I would love to hear it!

It's many years since I was in the Jewish Museum. I got there a pamphlet on the Yiddish language in Ireland. One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish. It also referred to a Jewish couple from Ireland holidaying on the continent in the thirties, meeting a Jewish couple from another country, and being unable to communicate until they all realised that they could do so in Yiddish. If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.

riffmongous

feargale wrote: »

It's many years since I was in the Jewish Museum. I got there a pamphlet on the Yiddish language in Ireland. One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish. It also referred to a Jewish couple from Ireland holidaying on the continent in the thirties, meeting a Jewish couple from another country, and being unable to communicate until they all realised that they could do so in Yiddish. If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.

No I realise that at this stage its pretty unlikely there are many speakers left in Ireland, but I think the history of it in Ireland could be interesting, the Connolly story certainly sounds so. I also think I have heard that anecdote about the holiday couples before too.. I hope I have time to visit the museum next time I am in Ireland if it is open.

feargale

riffmongous wrote: »

No I realise that at this stage its pretty unlikely there are many speakers left in Ireland, but I think the history of it in Ireland could be interesting, the Connolly story certainly sounds so. I also think I have heard that anecdote about the holiday couples before too.. I hope I have time to visit the museum next time I am in Ireland if it is open.

I would think the history of Yiddish in Ireland is pretty straightforward, in that virtually every Jewish immigrant to Ireland from say 1880 to 1950 was a native Yiddish speaker. They were all Ashkenazi from Eastern Europe. A few Sephardi came to Ireland before then, including a mayor of Youghal.

DrGuy

I personally don't know any Yiddish speakers, but then I've been in the country less than half a year. There are likely a number of Dubliners who know some Yiddish expressions, but so far most of the fellow Jews that I met spoke Hebrew, English, and in one case, Irish (he now lives in Jerusalem). I will, however, inquire further about this.

DrGuy

You might also be able to find Yiddish classes in London or Manchester, both of which have large religious Jewish communities.

riffmongous

Thank you DrGuy, it would be interesting to hear what your inquiries find out!

At the moment I am still learning German and I try to learn a few phrases from Yiddish that are similar to the German ones from a book on Yiddish slang I found over here in Vienna

feargale

Almost all the Jews whoncame to Ireland in the late 19th century were from one village in Lithuania whose name escapes me, but it's well documented.

feargale

Almost all the Jews whoncame to Ireland in the late 19th century were from one village in Lithuania whose name escapes me, but it's well documented.

riffmongous

I was just reading parts of this book on google, 'Jewish Ireland in the Age of Joyce: A Socioeconomic History', has anyone ever read it? It seems pretty detailed and might have some information on the language. From the bits I can read from google books all I learned was a few derogatory Yiddish phrases for Irish non-Jews..

DrGuy

From what I was told, some older members of the Irish Jewish community should be fluent in Yiddish. There might also be Yiddish classes in Vienna.

tac foley

You need to read the great little book by Leo Rossen 'The JOYs of Yiddish'. Very funny and very thought-making.

tac, Jewish but not Yiddish.

johnny_doyle

feargale wrote: »

One very interesting fact in it: James Connolly stood in Dublin Corporation elections in 1904, and printed some election literature in Yiddish.

A copy of the leaflet is online with a translation available

http://comeheretome.com/2010/03/01/james-connolly-yiddish-election-leaflet-1902/

The Irish Citizen Army was later founded in the rooms of the Reverend/Professor Gwynn, Professor of Hebrew (and Greek) at Trinity College.

pedroeibar1

johnny_doyle wrote: »

The Irish Citizen Army was later founded in the rooms of the Reverend/Professor Gwynn, Professor of Hebrew (and Greek) at Trinity College.

Fascinating family, many brilliant members, there were so many of them with positions in TCD that for a while it was colloquially known as Gwynnity College.

Benny_Cake

Isn't Yiddish making something of a comeback due to the increasing size of the Hasidic Jewish communities in Israel, the United States, and in some other countries?

I wouldn't imagine it has been spoken in Ireland for a good many years, which is a shame as it's a remarkable language. I understand that Israel didn't adopt it as an official language as it was felt it would discriminate against Sephardic Jews.

riffmongous

tac foley wrote: »

You need to read the great little book by Leo Rossen 'The JOYs of Yiddish'. Very funny and very thought-making.

tac, Jewish but not Yiddish.

I think I saw the german translation of it today in a bookstore, it's like a glossary right? (Same author, but it was just called Jiddisch)

riffmongous

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Isn't Yiddish making something of a comeback due to the increasing size of the Hasidic Jewish communities in Israel, the United States, and in some other countries?

I wouldn't imagine it has been spoken in Ireland for a good many years, which is a shame as it's a remarkable language. I understand that Israel didn't adopt it as an official language as it was felt it would discriminate against Sephardic Jews.

Interesting, I honestly can't say I am familiar with the phrase Hasidic, could you make sum them up for me in a nutshell, in your own words preferably, I can't say I was enlightened as to why they they are so distinct after some internet searching (I read they are more into mysticism and having religion for the common man, but also that they are orthodox)

I was first introduced to it be some non jewish german friends who sing some of their songs

DrGuy

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting, I honestly can't say I am familiar with the phrase Hasidic, could you make sum them up for me in a nutshell, in your own words preferably, I can't say I was enlightened as to why they they are so distinct after some internet searching (I read they are more into mysticism and having religion for the common man, but also that they are orthodox)

I was first introduced to it be some non jewish german friends who sing some of their songs

Hasidic refers to specific streams of Orthodox Judaism. The Hassidic movement started in 17th century following the Cossack rebellions. Most Hassids were Yiddish speakers, but so were the more traditional Litvacks (Lithuanians) who opposed the Hassidic movement.

FTA69

feargale wrote: »

If you want to hear Yiddish today you'd better go to New York.

There's also thousands of Yiddish speakers in London as well with strong Hassidic communities in Stamford Hill and Golders Green. I was only in IKEA on Sunday and there were loads of them speaking Yiddish. Similarly I was flying to Tel Aviv a few months ago from Luton and the majority of the flight over were London and Manchester Jews speaking Yiddish. They're a bit like people from Quebec, they flit effortlessly between the two languages.

DrGuy

Was it Yiddish or Hebrew? Nowadays there are far more Hebrew speakers than Yiddish.

FTA69

DrGuy wrote: »

Was it Yiddish or Hebrew? Nowadays there are far more Hebrew speakers than Yiddish.

Definitely Yiddish. It's very commonly used amongst the Hareidi Jews in England.

Snickers Man

riffmongous wrote: »

I think I saw the german translation of it today in a bookstore, it's like a glossary right? (Same author, but it was just called Jiddisch)

He's written several books about Yiddish, including Hooray for Yiddish and The Joy of Yiddish. The latter is more than just a glossary, it's an amusing history of the language along with several anecdotes to explain the etymology of certain words, including the famous story about the stolen camel to explain how the word shmuck evolved from meaning a piece of jewelry to being a term of contempt for someone you may have little time for.

Yiddish or Jiddisch is simply a transliteration of the German word Jüdisch, meaning "Jewish". Yiddish is after all essentially a dialect, or several dialects, of German with a significant imported vocabulary from Hebrew and written in Hebrew script. Much of it is mutually intelligible by German speakers, so long as they don't have to read it.

goose2005

Jim Connolly released an election leaflet in Yiddish in 1902 (still didn't get elected)

DrGuy

Snickers Man wrote: »

He's written several books about Yiddish, including Hooray for Yiddish and The Joy of Yiddish. The latter is more than just a glossary, it's an amusing history of the language along with several anecdotes to explain the etymology of certain words, including the famous story about the stolen camel to explain how the word shmuck evolved from meaning a piece of jewelry to being a term of contempt for someone you may have little time for.

Yiddish or Jiddisch is simply a transliteration of the German word Jüdisch, meaning "Jewish". Yiddish is after all essentially a dialect, or several dialects, of German with a significant imported vocabulary from Hebrew and written in Hebrew script. Much of it is mutually intelligible by German speakers, so long as they don't have to read it.

While Yiddish is primarily Germanic, a significant proportion of the words come from Hebrew, as is the case with most diaspora Jewish languages. There's also an argument as to the origins of the word schmuck in Yiddish, whether it's German, Polish, or other.

DrGuy

For anyone interested, here's an interesting video about the RoseEttaCohen Method of Learning Yiddish.

ILoveYourVibes

I know this is an old thread so sorry for bumping it. ( I HATE when people bump old threads and here is me doing it!)

My maternal great grandparents spoke it as their first lingua franca.

She was actually a jew from New York he was a jew from Ukraine. She came to study nursing in Dublin he emigrated here. They met and married. He spoke Russian as well as Yiddish she spoke hasidic yiddish he spoke eastern yiddish. There are lots of different dialects.


There was actually an Irish dialect of yiddish separate to the dialects my grandparents spoke. You are correct though to say its hardly spoken now.

There is a chabad community in Ireland they use litvish Yiddish. Rabbi Zalman lent is the leader.

The diff in dialects can be vast. My grandfather's yiddish was very influenced by Russian and Ukrainian. And my grandmother's very germanic.

Irish Yiddish is called Hiberno Yiddish.




Benny cake is partially correct.

Israel is 50% mizrahi jews(arab jews) and 10% sephardi. There are also beta Israel (Ethopian jews)

Sephardi jews spoke Ladino and Mizrahi jews spoke/speak arabic.

Obviously they all had a basis in bibilcal hebrew so modern hebrew was invented.

Russian though and arabic is still spoken at home by many in Israel.

So inclusivity was a motivator. But also to a lot of non yiddish speakers some dialects sound very like German. I think that played a part too.

The largest speaking communities in are New York today with some in Israel.

I can't speak it at all. But its still being learnt.

Again sorry for bumping the old thread. You can lock or delete this if you want

Here is a funny video of James Cagney speaking Yiddish

Funny fact James Cagney was actually fluent in Yiddish. He learnt it from the jewish kids he used to play with.

Pretty AWFUL stereotypical Irish cop character which annoys me of course!

feargale

I reckon Yiddish no longer edists as a spoken language in Europe.

I heard it only once. I flew from NY to Montreal a few years ago. If you remember it was the day some loony attacked the parliament in Ottawa, so although we didn't know the reason, the security at Montreal Airport was huge. We queued for about two hours in a line that snaked like about six conjoined letter Ss. You would pass the same person in another part of the line about ten times. There were two very obviously Orthodox Jews in the queue, and each time they passed each other they exchanged remarks in what sounded very like German, but of course it had to be Yiddish.

A few years ago I visited the Jewish museum in Istanbul and picked up a few CDs of Ladino songs. I had only ever previously heard it in the 1970s in a tv programme about Sarajevo. It was strange to hear a lady singing in a type of Spanish with a heavy Slav accent.

pedroeibar1

I used to work with few Jewish colleagues in NYC and had Yiddish words explained to me - I have no idea of how much Yiddish is spoken in Europe, but it’s influence is widespread in NYC. Considering the levels of immigration there are few Irish but many Yiddish loan words in American English in daily use. No doubt there are more but these few come to mind - klutz, spiel, schmuck, kosher, schlep, mentch, glitch, chutzpah, schmaltz, schmooz, schtick. Just watch an episode of Seinfeld or Sex in the City. And klezmer music is becoming more common.

tac foley

Oy.

You need to read the excellent book about Yiddish, called 'The jOYS of Yiddish' by Leo Rosten. It's very gemutlich.

ILoveYourVibes

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I used to work with few Jewish colleagues in NYC and had Yiddish words explained to me - I have no idea of how much Yiddish is spoken in Europe, but it’s influence is widespread in NYC. Considering the levels of immigration there are few Irish but many Yiddish loan words in American English in daily use. No doubt there are more but these few come to mind - klutz, spiel, schmuck, kosher, schlep, mentch, glitch, chutzpah, schmaltz, schmooz, schtick. Just watch an episode of Seinfeld or Sex in the City. And klezmer music is becoming more common.

Klezmer music is HUGE in Europe...

This is Dobrovnotch covering Du Hast by Rammstein.

These guys are Russian obv but are based in the EU.

Daniel Kahn and the painted Bird do a lot of Yiddish mixed with English songs

Daniel Kahn and the painted Bird are American but based in Berlin.

Daniel Kahn covering Lenard Cohen's Hallelujah" - in Yiddish

Spock speaking his mother tongue

:P

ILoveYourVibes

tac foley wrote: »

Oy.

You need to read the excellent book about Yiddish, called 'The jOYS of Yiddish' by Leo Rosten. It's very gemutlich.

Ashamed to say i know very little Yiddish

whisky_galore

riffmongous wrote: »

I was first introduced to it be some non jewish german friends who sing some of their songs

"Bei Mir Bistu Shein" better known by the Germanized title Bei Mir Bist Du Schön became a smash hit in Germany in 1938 and hugely popular in the German expat community in the US as it was assumed to be an uncontroversial song in a southern German dialect, uproar occurred when its Jewish provenance was abruptly discovered, widely publicized by the press and promptly banned by the Nazis.

Peregrinus

Yiddish is basically a dialect of German, with a bunch of loan-words from Hebrew and various Slavic languages, written using the Hebrew alphabet. Most speakers of German can make some headway in understanding spoken Yiddish, but unless they are familiar with the the Hebrew alphabet the written language is not comprehensible to them.

Hebrew was chosen as the official language for Israel for two reasons. First, as already pointed out, Yiddish was largely unknown to Sephardic Jews, but both Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities had some familiarity with Hebrew from religious study and liturgical uses. Secondly, secular Zionists were keen to claim Hebrew as a daily vernacular, rather than having an important aspect of Jewish history and culture be the preserve only of religious Jews.

tac foley

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ashamed to say i know very little Yiddish

It is written in English. The capitalising of the letters OY in joys is deliberate. I guess you don't be's around us Jews much, eh? Oy.

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

I guess you don't be's around us Jews much, eh? Oy.

No big surprise there Tac. Although the Jewish population in Ireland has increased by more than one third since 2000, the total number is now about 2,500, more than half living in the Dublin area. That gives a national ratio of about one to 2500 non-Jews. We goyim rarely get to meet a mench!

tac foley

Gevalt.

ILoveYourVibes

tac foley wrote: »

It is written in English. The capitalising of the letters OY in joys is deliberate. I guess you don't be's around us Jews much, eh? Oy.

I am Jewish. My mom's grandparents spoke yiddish. I haven't a word though except maybe yiddish slang etc.

Yes I gathered (the book ) it was written in English.

ILoveYourVibes

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

No big surprise there Tac. Although the Jewish population in Ireland has increased by more than one third since 2000, the total number is now about 2,500, more than half living in the Dublin area. That gives a national ratio of about one to 2500 non-Jews. We goyim rarely get to meet a mench!

The increase was a lot of immigration of Jews from elsewhere. Israel (mostly IT people or finance) and eastern Europe.

tac foley

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The increase was a lot of immigration of Jews from elsewhere. Israel (mostly IT people or finance) and eastern Europe.

What's that? Jews LEAVING Israel to work in Ireland? What next?

ILoveYourVibes

tac foley wrote: »

What's that? Jews LEAVING Israel to work in Ireland? What next?

I know. They all seem to work in IT or finance. Also some poles.

I am not sure if they will stay it seems to be projects they come over for about 2 yrs and then back to Israel some stay obv.

feargale

It would be interesting to know if Yiddish developed any distictive features in Ireland, such as borrowing local words etc. I'm sure it would be over the top to talk about an Irish dialect, given its relatively short life and the small number of speakers. Nonetheless.......

ILoveYourVibes

feargale wrote: »

It would be interesting to know if Yiddish developed any distictive features in Ireland, such as borrowing local words etc. I'm sure it would be over the top to talk about an Irish dialect, given its relatively short life and the small number of speakers. Nonetheless.......

It would be litvish ....it does have a lot of borrowed words. But not just from English. Some particular to wherever the person was from or their background.

So no not exactly an Irish dialect. Most hassidic communities use litvish chabad etc. Rabbi Zalman lent is a chabad rabbi.

My grandad used to call an umbrella a zont. That is not yiddish as far as i know its russian.

ILoveYourVibes

Actually this is interesting James Connolly gave out his campaign leaflet in 1902 in a yiddish translation it says here.

https://comeheretome.com/tag/james-connolly/

Snickers Man

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Considering the levels of immigration there are few Irish but many Yiddish loan words in American English in daily use.

You might be wrong there. There is a fascinating book called How the Irish Invented Slang which attempts to attribute many slang terms in modern English, both British and American, to Gaelic Irish roots.

Among these are familiar ones like "brogue" from bróg meaning a shoe and "dig", meaning to appreciate or to empathise with something from tuig, meaning to understand, both of which are I believe uncontroversially attributed to Irish roots.

However he claimed as Irish in origin many other familiar terms such as "spick and span" from spiaca 's bán meaning brilliant and white. And "putting the kybosh" meaning to put a stop to something as coming from an cap báis meaning the death cap that a judge used to wear when handing down a death sentence.

I say you "might" be wrong because the author was not a qualified linguist; he was merely an Irish American who was fascinated by some of the slang terms his Gaelic speaking grandfather had used and through gathering terms in English dictionaries for which the origin was unknown, he matched them to potential Gaelic expressions from which they might have been derived.

As a consequence he was roundly denounced by many academics in the linguistic field because, as you probably know , specialists HATE it when amateurs encroach on their patch and offer their own suggestions and explanations.

I have looked through his book and attempted to find alternative explanations for some of the terms he has studied and sure enough, my old OED has offered "origin unknown" in most if not all cases.

Some of his claims are far-fetched but he has convinced me in the majority of cases.
As one amateur to another

pedroeibar1

Snickers Man wrote: »

Some of his claims are far-fetched but he has convinced me in the majority of cases.
As one amateur to another

I am less convinced.;)

I have not read that book but heard the author being interviewed at the time of its publication. While some word roots appear obvious, many of the claims were a little ‘stretched’ and alternative derivations were ignored. For example the kibosh/ceap báis notion has been around for quite a while and much debated. Its original use, in the early 19th century, neant ‘to castigate, overwhelm (a person or political party such as the British Whigs, who were criticized for failing to outlaw flogging in the military), perhaps originally meaning simply "to flog," from kirbaj, a whip (Arabic) [American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition.]

I think the late Terry Dolan of UCD was one of the people I heard negatively criticizing the book, mainly on the grounds of poor timeline research. For e.g. I recall the book claims that ‘snazzy’ was an Irish loan word, from snas, meaning polished/ornamented. However ‘snazzy’ was first recorded in the 1930’s, which is very late for an Irish language import; also US lexicographers assert it is a combination of ‘snappy’ and ‘jazzy’, which fits the period accurately.

It’s easy to make specious claims on word origin. Why not claim that the African-American idiom to ‘diss’ someone derives from the lenition of the Irish dímheas (disrespect)? In fact it is from Jamaican English slang, being a shortening of either (or both) ‘to disparage’ or ‘to disrespect’.

I suggest the reason why Irish immigrants had little linguistic input in colloquial American English is due to culture. Most of the Famine-Irish who arrived in the US were rural, unskilled labourers; many were monoglot Irish speakers, but they were fast to learn and assimilate. Many of the Mittel-European Jewish arrivals often had trades (e.g. tailoring, retailing, jewellery) and ‘group work’ held them closer together socially/linguistically. Also, their language, used in religious ceremonies, was a binding factor, whereas the Irish had Latin.

Yiddish, along with German, Dutch, Flemish and Scandinavian languages are from one branch – Germanic, whereas Gaelic is from a distinctly separate branch, Protoceltic, which separated from the main ‘European’ branch at an earlier stage. Would it not be easier for the sounds of a loan word to transfer within the Germanic languages than for one to migrate across the linguistic barrier, from Celtic to Germanic?

Snickers Man

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

For example the kibosh/ceap b notion has been around for quite a while and much debated. Its original use, in the early 19th century, neant ‘to castigate, overwhelm (a person or political party such as the British Whigs, who were criticized for failing to outlaw flogging in the military), perhaps originally meaning simply "to flog," from kirbaj, a whip (Arabic) [American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition.]

So he might have been right then? I note in particular that the usage of kybosh is often "to put the kybosh on.." something, which I would suggest strengthens the case for the Irish interpretation.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I recall the book claims that ‘snazzy’ was an Irish loan word, from snas, meaning polished/ornamented. However ‘snazzy’ was first recorded in the 1930’s, which is very late for an Irish language import; also US lexicographers assert it is a combination of ‘snappy’ and ‘jazzy’, which fits the period accurately.

Snazzy was one of the cases in which I thought he was stretching a point, FWIW.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I suggest the reason why Irish immigrants had little linguistic input in colloquial American English is due to culture. Most of the Famine-Irish who arrived in the US were rural, unskilled labourers; many were monoglot Irish speakers, but they were fast to learn and assimilate. Many of the Mittel-European Jewish arrivals often had trades (e.g. tailoring, retailing, jewellery) and ‘group work’ held them closer together socially/linguistically.

Well I think that was just the point the author made: the Irish occupied the lower levels of society, at first, and therefore Irish words made their way into street talk, ie slang. Also, he claimed a lot of Irish words made it into the lingo of street crime and gambling. "Phoney" for example, he suggested came from fáinne meaning a ring, and it referred to fake items made of low-grade metal that Irish rascals would try and pass off as being valuable.

Another example was ríomhadh meaning an act of reckoning, arranging or setting in order, from which the modern Irish word for a computer ríomhaire comes. He reckons (baboom) that this is where the word "River" as used in Hold 'Em poker originates from. The River card is the one that announces the final "reckoning" or decision on how strong a hand you have.

Plausible?

Another case, in which I suspect he was reaching a bit was when he claimed that the game of Poker itself comes from the Irish póca meaning a pocket. The implication being that in poker each player is playing against others as an equal and one's ability to stay in the game depends on the contents of one's own "pocket", instead of other games like blackjack where you are playing against the house and your bet is limited at the start of the game. Certainly you can raise your stakes during it, but that is your choice and you can not be forced out by an opponent outspending you because his póca is bigger than yours.

Sure, pocket, is a reasonable etymology but in how many other languages does it sound like "poker"?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Also, their language, used in religious ceremonies, was a binding factor, whereas the Irish had Latin.

Woah! I don't think Yiddish was/is used in religious ceremonies. I thought that was exclusively Hebrew.

I have only the most layman's knowledge of the revival of Hebrew as a vernacular in Israel but I believe it was chosen over Yiddish (amid much controversy) because all Jews would have been familiar with Hebrew at least as a ritual ceremonial language, albeit one which had to be modernised considerably for everyday use. Although Yiddish would have been a more widely spoken vernacular among early Zionist settlers, it was exclusively for the Ashkenazim (or Eastern European) Jews.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Yiddish, along with German, Dutch, Flemish and Scandinavian languages are from one branch – Germanic, whereas Gaelic is from a distinctly separate branch, Protoceltic, which separated from the main ‘European’ branch at an earlier stage. Would it not be easier for the sounds of a loan word to transfer within the Germanic languages than for one to migrate across the linguistic barrier, from Celtic to Germanic?

Not sure what specific point you are making here. There are several examples of words from around the Empire from languages with little or no link to European tongues that have entered English through familiarity. They include shampoo and khaki (from India) and "Karzi", meaning a toilet, from either Zulu or Swahili. Although the latter is less well known and more common among military personnel, who would have had more contact with Zulu and Swahili speakers than civilians.

I remain curious and open minded about much of Mr Cassidy's efforts, while readily admitting that he probably stretched the case a bit in some instances to pad out his book.

I also enjoy the wind-up effect he has had on specialist academics which is an interesting topic for these times but probably deserving of its own thread

Ipso

Winding up specialists at the cost of spreading disinformation is not something to be lauded. The title of the book alone should ring alarm bells.
Some of the critiques I read gave the impression of starting with a premise and then it was a case of square peg meets round hole.

pedroeibar1

I haven’t read the book and am unlikely to do so. Like Ipso I’m wary of that particular type of person/author. Why do some have such a complex that they have to assert the Irish roots (however tenuous) of everyone and everything?

As for societal influence/street talk, in the 19th century the immigrant Irish were rural, mainly farm labourers and while there were pockets of them in big cities, most were widely dispersed throughout the US where English was the common language. Forced assimilation forced the new language on the monoglot Irish. OTOH the Jewish immigrants primarily had trades and were concentrated in or around cities/towns for work e.g. tailoring workshops. Hebrew was the ceremonial language, but Yiddish was the vernacular / lingua franca for communication among those Jews from the many Central European countries.

The ‘póca derivation for ‘poker’ is another example of poor research and trying to force a square peg into a round hole - the card game we know as ‘poker’ was first described as such in the early 19th century and probably derives from similar games of that era - the German game Pochspiel or the French game called as Poque. Both words are derived from the word pochen, meaning to brag or bluff.

Similar goes for the ‘river’ name for the final reckoning card: ‘river’ could easily be so called because it produces the ‘flood’ of winning cards. Even is an Irish root was sought, instead of the more convoluted derivation from ríomhaire, why not attribute it to roimh/roimhe (meaning ‘before’)?
The jury is out on the etymology of ‘phoney/fáinne’ but the link is quite possible as it derives from a confidence-trick based on a ring and was first mentioned in 1889 as the ‘fawney rig’.

All far from Yiddish, though.

Snickers Man

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I haven’t read the book and am unlikely to do so. Like Ipso I’m wary of that particular type of person/author.

That's a topic worthy of a thread all its own. And not just for this forum.

BloodyBill

Of course when we discuss Irish influence on American English we leave out the hundreds of thousands if 18th century Scotch Irish. I would reckon that they had a huge impact on the American vernacular.

BloodyBill

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I haven’t read the book and am unlikely to do so. Like Ipso I’m wary of that particular type of person/author. Why do some have such a complex that they have to assert the Irish roots (however tenuous) of everyone and everything?

As for societal influence/street talk, in the 19th century the immigrant Irish were rural, mainly farm labourers and while there were pockets of them in big cities, most were widely dispersed throughout the US where English was the common language. Forced assimilation forced the new language on the monoglot Irish. OTOH the Jewish immigrants primarily had trades and were concentrated in or around cities/towns for work e.g. tailoring workshops. Hebrew was the ceremonial language, but Yiddish was the vernacular / lingua franca for communication among those Jews from the many Central European countries.

The ‘póca derivation for ‘poker’ is another example of poor research and trying to force a square peg into a round hole - the card game we know as ‘poker’ was first described as such in the early 19th century and probably derives from similar games of that era - the German game Pochspiel or the French game called as Poque. Both words are derived from the word pochen, meaning to brag or bluff.

Similar goes for the ‘river’ name for the final reckoning card: ‘river’ could easily be so called because it produces the ‘flood’ of winning cards. Even is an Irish root was sought, instead of the more convoluted derivation from ríomhaire, why not attribute it to roimh/roimhe (meaning ‘before’)?
The jury is out on the etymology of ‘phoney/fáinne’ but the link is quite possible as it derives from a confidence-trick based on a ring and was first mentioned in 1889 as the ‘fawney rig’.

All far from Yiddish, though.

Most Irish stayed in big cities ,they didnt become farm labourers in anything like the numbers you might think. They had enough of farming ,especially the Irish from the west of Ireland . Some actually failed badly on the great plains prairie lands around Minnesota. The wealthier Protestant Irish did of course farm and became planters in the South. Funny how we always leave them out of any discussion on Irish in America.