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Termination of Contract

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  • 26-12-2013 9:51am
    #1
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭


    Hi, My mother got a 28 days Termination of the tenancy for rent arrears. It says Your tenancy will terminate on Thursday, 26th December,2013.
    2 weeks ago Landlords Agent knocked our door and threaten if we wont leave on the day, the locks will be changed.
    The problem is we couldn't/haven't found suitable accommodation in the time in our area and don't know what to do and the day has came.


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    #2
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Do nothing. The landlord cannot change the locks or force you out of the property; even after the conclusion of a notice of termination that would be seen as an illegal eviction.


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    #3
    debabyjesus
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭debabyjesus


    You're only posting about it now? When did she move in? When did she receive the notice?


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    #4
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    djimi wrote: »
    Do nothing. The landlord cannot change the locks or force you out of the property; even after the conclusion of a notice of termination that would be seen as an illegal eviction.

    So what will their next steps be?

    Thanks for quick reply


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    #5
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts.

    Have the arrears since been cleared? My advice would be to seek legal advice and get the notice of arrears and notice of termination letters scrutinized to see that they are legally binding (if they are not worded correctly then they may not be valid). Might buy you some more time.


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    #6
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    debabyjesus wrote: »
    You're only posting about it now? When did she move in? When did she receive the notice?

    Shes been living exactly 9 months today. She was on 6 months contract with the landlord, after 6 months they both agree they will sign another contract for the next 3 months. On september she received 14 days warranty rent payments notice. On the 9th December she received in post 28 days Termination notice.


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    #7
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?


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    #8
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    djimi wrote: »
    Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts.

    Have the arrears since been cleared? My advice would be to seek legal advice and get the notice of arrears and notice of termination letters scrutinized to see that they are legally binding (if they are not worded correctly then they may not be valid). Might buy you some more time.

    What do you mean by "Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts" ?
    The arrears haven't been cleared. My mother has been going through financial problems in the last 3months


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    #9
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    djimi wrote: »
    Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?

    The landlord agreed with my mother she will be paying him 100 euro more weekly, but after few weeks she got into financial problems


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    #10
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭OU812


    She's had nearly a month to find somewhere else. Longer if you consider she's had financial difficulty for some time.

    Landlord is not a charity.

    Seems pretty clear there's three options.

    1) You clear the arrears.
    2) Get her to move in with you (or someone you know).
    3) Get her somewhere cheaper.


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    #11
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    So, just stay there and screw the landlord? what do you expect this person to do? very likely cover the tenants costs of living there, unless they have come to an agreement with the landlord about making payments and sticking to them, they have an obligation to pay the agreed amount.
    September?? you could have been out within 42 days from the time of the original notice,
    suggest "they" come to an arrangement and pay off the arrears they owe.


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    #12
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    OU812 wrote: »
    She's had nearly a month to find somewhere else. Longer if you consider she's had financial difficulty for some time.

    Landlord is not a charity.

    Seems pretty clear there's three options.

    1) You clear the arrears.
    2) Get her to move in with you (or someone you know).
    3) Get her somewhere cheaper.

    She got the letter on the 9th of December which left her with 17 days to find property. That's not enough time to find an accommodation where we live.

    I'm a student I myself live time to time with my mother


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    #13
    dharma200
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭dharma200


    I don't think the op was looking for any moral judgements or condemnation for his mothers predicament.
    I suggest op you go online and see when threshold are open and go to them as soon as possible, they will give you all the info on where your mother stands on the eviction notice.
    I do not think even in the event of an eviction order time running out they can change the locks etc.


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    #14
    OU812
    Registered Users Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭OU812


    Realistically you could find somewhere within a week.

    If you live there (even part time) maybe you could contribute to the household.

    Assuming you live somewhere else part time where you pay full time costs, maybe give this up, move back home & support your mother.

    I'm sure this is distressing for both of you, but there's always solutions & it appears both of you have stuck your head in the sand.

    An agreement was made with the landlord - pay the agreed rent. Another followed - pay agreed rent plus arrears. Both of these were broken, it's hard to be sympathetic.


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    #15
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Midebe wrote: »
    She got the letter on the 9th of December which left her with 17 days to find property. That's not enough time to find an accommodation where we live.

    I'm a student I myself live time to time with my mother

    A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?


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    #16
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    I understand all these replies, but as of right now what could the landlord do? She needs more time


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    #17
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    djimi wrote: »
    A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?

    The latter is not dated and i'm afraid she doesn't have the envelop


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    #18
    dharma200
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭dharma200


    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/termination-of-a-tenancy-by-a-landlord/

    As far as I can read your mother can lodge an appeal to the prtb.... It will buy some time , but I ain't sure for definite, you must contact threshold as soon as humanly possible


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    #19
    dharma200
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭dharma200


    If you have received a notice of termination and are unsure as to whether it is valid, contact your local Threshold office immediately.
    If you wish to challenge the notice you must refer a dispute to the PRTB within 28 days of receipt.


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    #20
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Midebe wrote: »
    I understand all these replies, but as of right now what could the landlord do? She needs more time

    Right now the landlord can do absolutely nothing to physically remove you from the property. There is a legal process which now must be followed, the first step of which is to take a case with the PRTB. Its a massive flaw in our tenancy law, but one which will most likely benefit your mother for the next few months.


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    #21
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Midebe wrote: »
    The latter is not dated and i'm afraid she doesn't have the envelop

    I would seek some sort of legal/advice (be it solicitor or PRTB/Threshold) and have the notice of termination reviewed. I have a feeling it must be dated so there is proof when the notice started, but Im not 100% sure about that. The notice must give 28 days from the date it was issued, so if the landlord cannot prove when it was issued then I suspect they might have problems.

    All of this is really just delaying to buy time btw. If the notice is invalid then the landlord will simply issue another one, however if the arrears have been cleared in the meantime then I dont think they can issue a NoT, so if I were you Id be making every effort to clear those arrears if possible.


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    #22
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djimi wrote: »
    Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?

    They said the person made an agreement to pay €100 extra per month, sounds like the landlord has been reasonable in giving the person an opportunity to make good on the situation.
    djimi wrote: »
    A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?

    Who says its backdated?

    Looks like they stayed up to 6 months acquired some extra rights and stopped paying.
    Cant see how the person could afford anywhere else, re deposit, rent if they cant pay back what they owe now, plus they wont have a deposit, not like they will have a reference even.


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    #23
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djimi wrote: »
    Right now the landlord can do absolutely nothing to physically remove you from the property. There is a legal process which now must be followed, the first step of which is to take a case with the PRTB. Its a massive flaw in our tenancy law, but one which will most likely benefit your mother for the next few months.


    And if the landlord relies upon the rent to pay the mortgage, whatever of chasing the tenant for money owed, I would be seeking a judgement against them, stubbs gazette, if they wouldnt pay me, then id be damned sure they would never get another loan again if they left me out of pocket for months like that as it would be a financial hit I could not afford to take.


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    #24
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    cerastes wrote: »
    And if the landlord relies upon the rent to pay the mortgage, whatever of chasing the tenant for money owed, I would be seeking a judgement against them, stubbs gazette, if they wouldnt pay me, then id be damned sure they would never get another loan again if they left me out of pocket for months like that as it would be a financial hit I could not afford to take.

    Im well aware of that, but it doesnt change the legal process (as disgraceful as it currently is) that must be adhered to. You can (and should) seek judgements, contact Stubbs Gazette (not really sure what you hope to achieve by that) etc, but you still cannot remove the tenant from the property until you have obtained the relevant court order.


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    #25
    Midebe
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭Midebe


    Here is the Termination of contract letter


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    #26
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    cerastes wrote: »
    They said the person made an agreement to pay €100 extra per month, sounds like the landlord has been reasonable in giving the person an opportunity to make good on the situation.

    Indeed it does. Still doesnt mean that they can physically remove the tenant from the property though.
    cerastes wrote: »
    Who says its backdated?

    OP claims that the letter was received on the 9th Dec; even if it took 3 days to reach the OP (pretty unlikely) then it would still not be valid as 28 days notice. Without a starting date written to into the letter, the landlord is going to find it difficult to prove that they issued sufficient notice.


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    #27
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Midebe wrote: »
    Here is the Termination of contract letter

    Refer it to the PRTB so, as per the letter.

    It doesnt look particularly valid to me to be honest, but Im not a legal expert. If nothing else, waiting for the wheels of the PRTB to kick into motion will buy you some time.


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    #28
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djimi wrote: »
    Im well aware of that, but it doesnt change the legal process (as disgraceful as it currently is) that must be adhered to. You can (and should) seek judgements, contact Stubbs Gazette (not really sure what you hope to achieve by that) etc, but you still cannot remove the tenant from the property until you have obtained the relevant court order.


    They have a contract to pay a certain amount, they broke that agreement, and cant get it back on track or maybe dont want to, Id be seeking a judgement against them and if they didn't pay their debt then Id have them published in the gazette if possible, if they screwed me like this person is screwing the landlord in question, I'd return the favour, good luck to them getting any kind of credit in the future.

    I agree the landlord should do things the right way, better for them, but the tenant has not complied with one of the most important aspects of letting , their obligation to pay the rent. They could be seriously putting the landlord in a very bad financial position.

    Should be able to get tenants who dont/wont pay out by the end of the notice period, so at most a landlord might lose a month, but tenant should still be obligated to pay that debt. There needs to be obligations and rights for both parties, that is applied equally.
    Difficult/illegal landlord, apply rules rigidly
    Overholding tenant, apply rules rigidly


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    #29
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,238 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    If the tenant can't pay then threatening then with publishing their name in stubbs Gazette isn't really going to help you. Might make you feel better, but that's about it!

    I agree with you; the system needs a major overhaul. Landlords should not have to wait months or more to get their property back from a tenant who is in arrears/not paying. Unfortunately that is the mess that we currently have.


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    #30
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djimi wrote: »
    Indeed it does. Still doesnt mean that they can physically remove the tenant from the property though.



    OP claims that the letter was received on the 9th Dec; even if it took 3 days to reach the OP (pretty unlikely) then it would still not be valid as 28 days notice. Without a starting date written to into the letter, the landlord is going to find it difficult to prove that they issued sufficient notice.

    looks ok to me, Id have to compare to the prtb site to see whats available there.

    Cant see the whole letter, could be a date on there the OP doesnt want people to see.

    The sender may have a receipt of their postage of the letter.
    djimi wrote: »
    Refer it to the PRTB so, as per the letter.

    It doesnt look particularly valid to me to be honest, but Im not a legal expert. If nothing else, waiting for the wheels of the PRTB to kick into motion will buy you some time.

    Looks valid to me, better if could see the whole document and right side up, Id have to compare with what the PRTB says on their example. Just checked and it looks like a good copy of the PRTB example online.
    Tenant cant ignore their responsibility and obligation and expect the prtb to decide in their favour.


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    #31
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    djimi wrote: »
    If the tenant can't pay then threatening then with publishing their name in stubbs Gazette isn't really going to help you. Might make you feel better, but that's about it!

    I agree with you; the system needs a major overhaul. Landlords should not have to wait months or more to get their property back from a tenant who is in arrears/not paying. Unfortunately that is the mess that we currently have.

    I never said Id threaten anyone, if a person owed me money, I would seek to have it payed, failure for a person to do that would result in me getting a judgement for that, if they (the debtor) failed to pay its a legitimate means to encourage them to pay and I see no reason why anyone wouldnt do this. If tenants considered they might screw up their credit, store cards/credit cards/personal loans and for there to be a record of that for all the future, then they might consider walking away from coming to an agreement regarding what they owe to a contract they signed or agreed to.
    Its not about feeling better, but its a useful tool to persuade people to not take the route the kind of route suggested above, maybe if they moved early I would not take this kind of action, but if they held on for months, then they would have screwed me, why should I not return the favour, with the possibilty of getting repayed eventually, however unlikely that may seem, a person might reconsider after a few years or when things get better for them if they are having difficulty down the line getting access to financial institutions.


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