Termination of Contract

Midebe

Hi, My mother got a 28 days Termination of the tenancy for rent arrears. It says Your tenancy will terminate on Thursday, 26th December,2013.
2 weeks ago Landlords Agent knocked our door and threaten if we wont leave on the day, the locks will be changed.
The problem is we couldn't/haven't found suitable accommodation in the time in our area and don't know what to do and the day has came.

djimi

Do nothing. The landlord cannot change the locks or force you out of the property; even after the conclusion of a notice of termination that would be seen as an illegal eviction.

debabyjesus

You're only posting about it now? When did she move in? When did she receive the notice?

Midebe

djimi wrote: »

Do nothing. The landlord cannot change the locks or force you out of the property; even after the conclusion of a notice of termination that would be seen as an illegal eviction.

So what will their next steps be?

Thanks for quick reply

djimi

Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts.

Have the arrears since been cleared? My advice would be to seek legal advice and get the notice of arrears and notice of termination letters scrutinized to see that they are legally binding (if they are not worded correctly then they may not be valid). Might buy you some more time.

Midebe

debabyjesus wrote: »

You're only posting about it now? When did she move in? When did she receive the notice?

Shes been living exactly 9 months today. She was on 6 months contract with the landlord, after 6 months they both agree they will sign another contract for the next 3 months. On september she received 14 days warranty rent payments notice. On the 9th December she received in post 28 days Termination notice.

djimi

Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?

Midebe

djimi wrote: »

Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts.

Have the arrears since been cleared? My advice would be to seek legal advice and get the notice of arrears and notice of termination letters scrutinized to see that they are legally binding (if they are not worded correctly then they may not be valid). Might buy you some more time.

What do you mean by "Chase you through PRTB and ultimately the courts" ?
The arrears haven't been cleared. My mother has been going through financial problems in the last 3months

Midebe

djimi wrote: »

Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?

The landlord agreed with my mother she will be paying him 100 euro more weekly, but after few weeks she got into financial problems

OU812

She's had nearly a month to find somewhere else. Longer if you consider she's had financial difficulty for some time.

Landlord is not a charity.

Seems pretty clear there's three options.

1) You clear the arrears.
2) Get her to move in with you (or someone you know).
3) Get her somewhere cheaper.

cerastes

So, just stay there and screw the landlord? what do you expect this person to do? very likely cover the tenants costs of living there, unless they have come to an agreement with the landlord about making payments and sticking to them, they have an obligation to pay the agreed amount.
September?? you could have been out within 42 days from the time of the original notice,
suggest "they" come to an arrangement and pay off the arrears they owe.

Midebe

OU812 wrote: »

She's had nearly a month to find somewhere else. Longer if you consider she's had financial difficulty for some time.

Landlord is not a charity.

Seems pretty clear there's three options.

1) You clear the arrears.
2) Get her to move in with you (or someone you know).
3) Get her somewhere cheaper.

She got the letter on the 9th of December which left her with 17 days to find property. That's not enough time to find an accommodation where we live.

I'm a student I myself live time to time with my mother

dharma200

I don't think the op was looking for any moral judgements or condemnation for his mothers predicament.
I suggest op you go online and see when threshold are open and go to them as soon as possible, they will give you all the info on where your mother stands on the eviction notice.
I do not think even in the event of an eviction order time running out they can change the locks etc.

OU812

Realistically you could find somewhere within a week.

If you live there (even part time) maybe you could contribute to the household.

Assuming you live somewhere else part time where you pay full time costs, maybe give this up, move back home & support your mother.

I'm sure this is distressing for both of you, but there's always solutions & it appears both of you have stuck your head in the sand.

An agreement was made with the landlord - pay the agreed rent. Another followed - pay agreed rent plus arrears. Both of these were broken, it's hard to be sympathetic.

djimi

Midebe wrote: »

She got the letter on the 9th of December which left her with 17 days to find property. That's not enough time to find an accommodation where we live.

I'm a student I myself live time to time with my mother

A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?

Midebe

I understand all these replies, but as of right now what could the landlord do? She needs more time

Midebe

djimi wrote: »

A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?

The latter is not dated and i'm afraid she doesn't have the envelop

dharma200

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/termination-of-a-tenancy-by-a-landlord/

As far as I can read your mother can lodge an appeal to the prtb.... It will buy some time , but I ain't sure for definite, you must contact threshold as soon as humanly possible

dharma200

If you have received a notice of termination and are unsure as to whether it is valid, contact your local Threshold office immediately.
If you wish to challenge the notice you must refer a dispute to the PRTB within 28 days of receipt.

djimi

Midebe wrote: »

I understand all these replies, but as of right now what could the landlord do? She needs more time

Right now the landlord can do absolutely nothing to physically remove you from the property. There is a legal process which now must be followed, the first step of which is to take a case with the PRTB. Its a massive flaw in our tenancy law, but one which will most likely benefit your mother for the next few months.

djimi

Midebe wrote: »

The latter is not dated and i'm afraid she doesn't have the envelop

I would seek some sort of legal/advice (be it solicitor or PRTB/Threshold) and have the notice of termination reviewed. I have a feeling it must be dated so there is proof when the notice started, but Im not 100% sure about that. The notice must give 28 days from the date it was issued, so if the landlord cannot prove when it was issued then I suspect they might have problems.

All of this is really just delaying to buy time btw. If the notice is invalid then the landlord will simply issue another one, however if the arrears have been cleared in the meantime then I dont think they can issue a NoT, so if I were you Id be making every effort to clear those arrears if possible.

cerastes

djimi wrote: »

Thats a long time between notice of arrears and notice of termination. Were the arrears cleared in that time?

They said the person made an agreement to pay €100 extra per month, sounds like the landlord has been reasonable in giving the person an opportunity to make good on the situation.

djimi wrote: »

A notice of termination cannot be backdated. Is the letter dated? What does the postmark on the letter say about when it was posted?

Who says its backdated?

Looks like they stayed up to 6 months acquired some extra rights and stopped paying.
Cant see how the person could afford anywhere else, re deposit, rent if they cant pay back what they owe now, plus they wont have a deposit, not like they will have a reference even.

cerastes

djimi wrote: »

Right now the landlord can do absolutely nothing to physically remove you from the property. There is a legal process which now must be followed, the first step of which is to take a case with the PRTB. Its a massive flaw in our tenancy law, but one which will most likely benefit your mother for the next few months.

And if the landlord relies upon the rent to pay the mortgage, whatever of chasing the tenant for money owed, I would be seeking a judgement against them, stubbs gazette, if they wouldnt pay me, then id be damned sure they would never get another loan again if they left me out of pocket for months like that as it would be a financial hit I could not afford to take.

djimi

cerastes wrote: »

And if the landlord relies upon the rent to pay the mortgage, whatever of chasing the tenant for money owed, I would be seeking a judgement against them, stubbs gazette, if they wouldnt pay me, then id be damned sure they would never get another loan again if they left me out of pocket for months like that as it would be a financial hit I could not afford to take.

Im well aware of that, but it doesnt change the legal process (as disgraceful as it currently is) that must be adhered to. You can (and should) seek judgements, contact Stubbs Gazette (not really sure what you hope to achieve by that) etc, but you still cannot remove the tenant from the property until you have obtained the relevant court order.

Midebe

Here is the Termination of contract letter

djimi

cerastes wrote: »

They said the person made an agreement to pay €100 extra per month, sounds like the landlord has been reasonable in giving the person an opportunity to make good on the situation.

Indeed it does. Still doesnt mean that they can physically remove the tenant from the property though.

cerastes wrote: »

Who says its backdated?

OP claims that the letter was received on the 9th Dec; even if it took 3 days to reach the OP (pretty unlikely) then it would still not be valid as 28 days notice. Without a starting date written to into the letter, the landlord is going to find it difficult to prove that they issued sufficient notice.

djimi

Midebe wrote: »

Here is the Termination of contract letter

Refer it to the PRTB so, as per the letter.

It doesnt look particularly valid to me to be honest, but Im not a legal expert. If nothing else, waiting for the wheels of the PRTB to kick into motion will buy you some time.

cerastes

djimi wrote: »

Im well aware of that, but it doesnt change the legal process (as disgraceful as it currently is) that must be adhered to. You can (and should) seek judgements, contact Stubbs Gazette (not really sure what you hope to achieve by that) etc, but you still cannot remove the tenant from the property until you have obtained the relevant court order.

They have a contract to pay a certain amount, they broke that agreement, and cant get it back on track or maybe dont want to, Id be seeking a judgement against them and if they didn't pay their debt then Id have them published in the gazette if possible, if they screwed me like this person is screwing the landlord in question, I'd return the favour, good luck to them getting any kind of credit in the future.

I agree the landlord should do things the right way, better for them, but the tenant has not complied with one of the most important aspects of letting , their obligation to pay the rent. They could be seriously putting the landlord in a very bad financial position.

Should be able to get tenants who dont/wont pay out by the end of the notice period, so at most a landlord might lose a month, but tenant should still be obligated to pay that debt. There needs to be obligations and rights for both parties, that is applied equally.
Difficult/illegal landlord, apply rules rigidly
Overholding tenant, apply rules rigidly

djimi

If the tenant can't pay then threatening then with publishing their name in stubbs Gazette isn't really going to help you. Might make you feel better, but that's about it!

I agree with you; the system needs a major overhaul. Landlords should not have to wait months or more to get their property back from a tenant who is in arrears/not paying. Unfortunately that is the mess that we currently have.

cerastes

djimi wrote: »

Indeed it does. Still doesnt mean that they can physically remove the tenant from the property though.



OP claims that the letter was received on the 9th Dec; even if it took 3 days to reach the OP (pretty unlikely) then it would still not be valid as 28 days notice. Without a starting date written to into the letter, the landlord is going to find it difficult to prove that they issued sufficient notice.

looks ok to me, Id have to compare to the prtb site to see whats available there.

Cant see the whole letter, could be a date on there the OP doesnt want people to see.

The sender may have a receipt of their postage of the letter.

djimi wrote: »

Refer it to the PRTB so, as per the letter.

It doesnt look particularly valid to me to be honest, but Im not a legal expert. If nothing else, waiting for the wheels of the PRTB to kick into motion will buy you some time.

Looks valid to me, better if could see the whole document and right side up, Id have to compare with what the PRTB says on their example. Just checked and it looks like a good copy of the PRTB example online.
Tenant cant ignore their responsibility and obligation and expect the prtb to decide in their favour.

cerastes

djimi wrote: »

If the tenant can't pay then threatening then with publishing their name in stubbs Gazette isn't really going to help you. Might make you feel better, but that's about it!

I agree with you; the system needs a major overhaul. Landlords should not have to wait months or more to get their property back from a tenant who is in arrears/not paying. Unfortunately that is the mess that we currently have.

I never said Id threaten anyone, if a person owed me money, I would seek to have it payed, failure for a person to do that would result in me getting a judgement for that, if they (the debtor) failed to pay its a legitimate means to encourage them to pay and I see no reason why anyone wouldnt do this. If tenants considered they might screw up their credit, store cards/credit cards/personal loans and for there to be a record of that for all the future, then they might consider walking away from coming to an agreement regarding what they owe to a contract they signed or agreed to.
Its not about feeling better, but its a useful tool to persuade people to not take the route the kind of route suggested above, maybe if they moved early I would not take this kind of action, but if they held on for months, then they would have screwed me, why should I not return the favour, with the possibilty of getting repayed eventually, however unlikely that may seem, a person might reconsider after a few years or when things get better for them if they are having difficulty down the line getting access to financial institutions.

Midebe

The Landlord is being payed every week 70-80 euro. My mother pays as much she cans right now. Her arrears with the landlord are 1100 euro I believe.

djimi

cerastes wrote: »

looks ok to me, Id have to compare to the prtb site to see whats available there.

Cant see the whole letter, could be a date on there the OP doesnt want people to see.

The sender may have a receipt of their postage of the letter.



Looks valid to me, better if could see the whole document and right side up, Id have to compare with what the PRTB says on their example. Just checked and it looks like a good copy of the PRTB example online.
Tenant cant ignore their responsibility and obligation and expect the prtb to decide in their favour.

The letter alone (assuming what we see is all there is) does not prove that the required 28 days notice was issued. If the landlord cannot prove when it was sent then they will not be able to prove that it is valid; there is nothing to say that it wasn't issued last week.

This is the reason why registered post should always be used for things like this.

Midebe

djimi wrote: »

The letter alone (assuming what we see is all there is) does not prove that the required 28 days notice was issued. If the landlord cannot prove when it was sent then they will not be able to prove that it is valid; there is nothing to say that it wasn't issued last week.

This is the reason why registered post should always be used for things like this.

This is what it says on the letter I copied word for word

AUCTIONEER & ESTATE AGENTS
Street name..........
Phone:000000000
Email:xxxxxxxxxxxx

Termination of Contract

Termination by landlord pursuant to paragraph 1 of the
table to s.34 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004


To: Name xxxxx

Your tenancy of the dwelling at 2,Street Name,City, County will terminate on THURSDAY,26th December, 2013

The Reason for termination of the tenancy is due to the breach of your tenancy obligation(s) in that you failed to pay rent in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreement and your obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004.


You have the whole of the 24hours of the Termination Date to vacate possesion of the dwelling.
Any issues as to the validity of this notice or the right of the Landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Private residential Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 within 28days from the receipt of it.


This notice is served on 26th DECEMBER, 2013

Signed: __________

Landlord/Landlord's Agent

cerastes

Im not trying to sound harsh or unsympathetic, but since september, thats a long time to not be paying rent, only in the last few posts has the OP said a certain amount is being payed, prior to that by post 9 it seemed like no rent was being payed. On the other hand, it cant be expected for the landlord to accept routine non payment or incomplete payment of rent as they will very likely have their own obligation to pay a mortgage too.

cerastes

Midebe wrote: »

This is what it says on the letter I copied word for word

AUCTIONEER & ESTATE AGENTS
Street name..........
Phone:000000000
Email:xxxxxxxxxxxx

Termination of Contract

Termination by landlord pursuant to paragraph 1 of the
table to s.34 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004


To: Name xxxxx

Your tenancy of the dwelling at 2,Street Name,City, County will terminate on THURSDAY,26th December, 2013

The Reason for termination of the tenancy is due to the breach of your tenancy obligation(s) in that you failed to pay rent in accordance with the terms of the tenancy agreement and your obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004.


You have the whole of the 24hours of the Termination Date to vacate possesion of the dwelling.
Any issues as to the validity of this notice or the right of the Landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Private residential Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 within 28days from the receipt of it.


This notice is served on 26th DECEMBER, 2013

Signed: __________

Landlord/Landlord's Agent

can you scan in the A4 document complete in one piece, with non-relevant details (names,contact details) blacked out,

Midebe

cerastes wrote: »

Im not trying to sound harsh or unsympathetic, but since september, thats a long time to not be paying rent, only in the last few posts has the OP said a certain amount is being payed, prior to that by post 9 it seemed like no rent was being payed. On the other hand, it cant be expected for the landlord to accept routine non payment or incomplete payment of rent as they will very likely have their own obligation to pay a mortgage too.

Like I said she's in financial problems and the landlord is getting half of agreed weekly,of course it does not excuse her

Midebe

cerastes wrote: »

can you scan in the A4 document complete, with relevant details blacked out,

Unfortunately no all I got is this

cerastes

Midebe wrote: »

Like I said she's in financial problems and the landlord is getting half of agreed weekly,of course it does not excuse her

Well, it seems only fair of her to change her arrangements, move in with you or another relative, as the longer she stays, the more she owes and breaches her obligation, if she could put her share to someone elses rent/bills until she can get on her feet, Under the above mentioned circumstances I cant even see how she could get a place on her own if she cant pay for an existing place now, her deposit will be gone, and the landlord is unlikely to give her a recommendation.

The Glass Key

Can anyone explain the 3rd line from last "This notice is served on 26th DECEMBER, 2013" ? Is that the day the notice is served or comes into force, while it might be the correct legal form in doesn't make any sense to me?

Midebe

cerastes wrote: »

Well, it seems only fair of her to change her arrangements, move in with you or another relative, as the longer she stays, the more she owes and breaches her obligation, if she could put her share to someone elses rent/bills until she can get on her feet, Under the above mentioned circumstances I cant even see how she could get a place on her own if she cant pay for an existing place now, her deposit will be gone, and the landlord is unlikely to give her a recommendation.

Everything was fine for the first 6 months and then boom....

Midebe

The Glass Key wrote: »

Can anyone explain the 3rd line from last "This notice is served on 26th DECEMBER, 2013" ? Is that the day the notice is served or comes into force, while it might be the correct legal form in doesn't make any sense to me?

It makes no sense to me either...

djimi

The Glass Key wrote: »

Can anyone explain the 3rd line from last "This notice is served on 26th DECEMBER, 2013" ? Is that the day the notice is served or comes into force, while it might be the correct legal form in doesn't make any sense to me?

I suspect that the landlord/agent has screwed up here and that last line should have stated the start date of the notice (possibly 26th november). As it stands, that notice means next to nothing, unless it contains something else that we are not seeing, or the landlord has some other means of proving when it was issued.

cerastes

Midebe wrote: »

Unfortunately no all I got is this

That just looks like a reminder termination of contract, it looks like it would normally come after a 28 day notice, unless they foolishly got the dates wrong, but there is no notice of 28 days, only that its saying you have 28 days to lodge a complaint with the PRTB in the letter. Suggesting that 28 day notice previously? given the original 14 day notice was supplied in September, I find it unusual that a 28 day notice was not provided much earlier.

if they have proof a 28 day notice was sent earlier and this is a reminder, then Id be curious how that could be presented and squared with the PRTB.

dharma200

I would take it notice starts from today, but they worded it so to make your mother think she had to be out by today, I suspect they wanted her to be out by today but there is no way that would stand legally. Forget about it for now, contact threshold as soon as possible, see if there is any way for arrears to be paid.
If not start looking straight away for your mum, even though you can drag the process out it can't be I definately and it isn't nice to do that tot eh landlord either and I am sure everyone is better off trying to meet half way in the middle.
Hope your mum sorts it out, everyone , including those judging on the thread, can run into financial difficulties and while not nice for owner of property, the actual threat of homelessness is horrific so no point head in the sand... Hope everything works out for all parties involved and your mum sees better times.

Midebe

The only letter she received was the 14 days rent arrears warranty in September and the Termination letter in December

cerastes

If arrears are paid, then the 14 day warning and more importantly the 28 day notice to evict are defunct, Id try make paying the arrears the priority as moving in with relatives or others isnt always easy or possible, and starting fresh somewhere else is going to be a problem if they cant get money together for rent, then where would a new deposit and rent come from?

Midebe

cerastes wrote: »

If arrears are paid, then the 14 day warning and more importantly the 28 day notice to evict are defunct, Id try make paying the arrears the priority as moving in with relatives or others isnt always easy or possible, and starting fresh somewhere else is going to be a problem if they cant get money together for rent, then where would a new deposit and rent come from?

I will try to contact the Landlords Agent tomorrow and see what can we do. I will also contact solicitor and show him the Termination letter if its valid because it makes no sense.

Rosier

The date and timing are revealing today is a bank holiday and the tenant is thus helpless to seek professional advice or even get to a bank . seems a deliberate tactic to get her out illegally.

djimi

Midebe wrote: »

I will try to contact the Landlords Agent tomorrow and see what can we do. I will also contact solicitor and show him the Termination letter if its valid because it makes no sense.

To be honest, if you want to buy yourself more time then Id keep the agent/landlord out of this for as long as possible, especially if you intend to try and clear the arrears. Once they issue a legal notice of termination, they are not obliged to cancel it even if you clear the arrears before the end of the notice period.

Nino Brown

Rosier wrote: »

The date and timing are revealing today is a bank holiday and the tenant is thus helpless to seek professional advice or even get to a bank . seems a deliberate tactic to get her out illegally.

It wasn't received today, there has been a few weeks to seek professional advice