Dublin Bus Use of Double Doors

bk

So can someone please tell me, what is the current policy and practical use of Double Doors on Dublin Bus now?

Are the double doors supposed to be used at every stop now?

We have heard Alek complain about passengers ignoring the automated announcements to use the rear door to exit and instead using the front door, but who can blame them when I saw the following incident happen yesterday.

So I'm on a new GT class double door bus on route 1 into town. I believe this route is all GT class buses now. And for the first time I'm impressed as I watch all the passengers actually listen to the announcements and actually wait by the rear door to exit as it approaches O'Connell St.

Well you can guess what happens next, yup, we stop on O'Connell St and the driver point blank refuses to open the rear door! Cue chaos as the passengers scramble to use the front door against the flow of passengers who have already started boarding up front!!

And hilariously as all of this is happening, the automated announcement comes on asking people to use the rear door!!!

So who can blame passengers for ignoring the automated announcements when such idiocy continues to be carried out by some DB staff.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

So can someone please tell me, what is the current policy and practical use of Double Doors on Dublin Bus now?

Are the double doors supposed to be used at every stop now?

We have heard Alek complain about passengers ignoring the automated announcements to use the rear door to exit and instead using the front door, but who can blame them when I saw the following incident happen yesterday.

So I'm on a new GT class double door bus on route 1 into town. I believe this route is all GT class buses now. And for the first time I'm impressed as I watch all the passengers actually listen to the announcements and actually wait by the rear door to exit as it approaches O'Connell St.

Well you can guess what happens next, yup, we stop on O'Connell St and the driver point blank refuses to open the rear door! Cue chaos as the passengers scramble to use the front door against the flow of passengers who have already started boarding up front!!

And hilariously as all of this is happening, the automated announcement comes on asking people to use the rear door!!!

So who can blame passengers for ignoring the automated announcements when such idiocy continues to be carried out by some DB staff.

Driver is an eejit...report the incident.

My own experiences are diametrically opposite...no matter how many Ladylike ehortations to Exit via the Centre Doors are played,my congregation will line up for Front Door Communion,then give out stink when I despatch them back to the Centre Door.

Some compliant passengers are also deterred from Centre Door Exit,by the numbers of Loafers who immediately upon boarding,head for the doorwell to stand there blocking the hell out of it,steadfastly refusing to vacate even when PA'd to do so..any suggestions as to what to do with these folks BK ?

I also notice a significant increase in the numbers of passengers sidling up to me with questions as we approach their Stop....usually something innocious...this category get VERY! uptight when after answering their question I do NOT open the front door,but wait for them to volte-face and head back to the EXIT.

Mind you BK,im impressed that you could tell by watching them,that those route 1 passengers were actually LISTENING to the announcements,did you actually see them try to exit at any stop before OCS ?

If twere me in charge I would immediately tweak some of the GT Door Operation settings,such as speeding up the operation of the doors ,introduce a 5 sec Centre-Door "Lead Time" when the dual-door button is depressed..this 5 sec is enough time for those undecided to notice the door opening and thus go-for-it.

Also a good LOUD.."Exit Doors OPEN" announcement actually played when the thing is open might penetrate the fog too.

At the moment,BAC Door Operation is wrapped up in a fug of supposedly Safety Related interlocks and delay mechanisms,all designed to prevent accidents,although whether they actually DO any of this is debatable.

Another excellent,inexpensive little tweak would be a uni-directional barrier actually physically preventing exit through the front doors,however,this may have issues when wheel-chairs and such like are involved.

Also I would take an angle-grinder to the stairwell,allowing its users to flow directly out through the Open Centre Doors.

As it currently stands,the GT is one of the least useable in Centre Door mode,mainly due to no actual involvement of Drivers in the design and build stage.....the perception of a design engineer is sometimes quite different to a Busdriver or a Bus Passenger !!!!

Thats my 2c worth BK

corktina

are you really saying the stairs aren't by the centre exit?
What fool designed that?
Obvious place for them I'd think (non expert opinion) as whilst the last few are exiting the new passengers can be boarding.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

As it currently stands,the GT is one of the least useable in Centre Door mode,mainly due to no actual involvement of Drivers in the design and build stage.....the perception of a design engineer is sometimes quite different to a Busdriver or a Bus Passenger !!!!

But the SIPTU bus design committee were involved? If they weren't representing drivers (and they def weren't representing passengers) why were they there?

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

But the SIPTU bus design committee were involved? If they weren't representing drivers (and they def weren't representing passengers) why were they there?

A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee,what we have is just that....BTW it is the Bus Design Sub-Committee and is not comprised solely of SIPTU representatives.

With the design of the GT class being the first foray of the NTA into specification,I vmight just be inclined to cut a little slack,however,when I see the huge NTA efforts expended on complying with the Official Languages Act and whatnot,I then reconsider my position.

Once again,Design Sub-Committee or not,the vast majority of Busdrivers (Industry wide) are never involved in the design process of vehicles which they spend up to 10 hours per day,not only driving but also operating...this deficiency requires urgent reassessment IMO.

AlekSmart

corktina wrote: »

are you really saying the stairs aren't by the centre exit?
What fool designed that?
Obvious place for them I'd think (non expert opinion) as whilst the last few are exiting the new passengers can be boarding.

The stairwell,corktina,is forward of the Centre Doorwell,so a passenger descending is placed directly facing the Wheelchair Space.

For maximum effectivity and efficiency,the stairwell needs to be brought back one window bay,to face the descending passenger directly into the Centre Doorwell....Down and OUT, so to speak...;)

Carlos Orange

AlekSmart wrote: »

A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee,what we have is just that....BTW it is the Bus Design Sub-Committee and is not comprised solely of SIPTU representatives.

Feels like I haven't been on a Dublin bus in forever. Should be interesting when I eventually get on one.

Anyway, what is so unique about Dublin that means we can't just use an off the shelf design? Sounds like a massive waste of money.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

For maximum effectivity and efficiency,the stairwell needs to be brought back one window bay,to face the descending passenger directly into the Centre Doorwell....Down and OUT, so to speak...;)

But it's not as straightforward as that, since it creates another problem whichever way you look at it.

Scenario A: Move the Doors.
It would remove the space for the wheelchair, since there would be no way a wheelchair could fit in the remaining space between the luggage rack and the doors in their new position, which is why the design is the way it is now. You'd also presumably put two seats between the luggage rack and the doors, which would look odd.

The alternative used in some countries is to have the wheelchair space directly opposite the middle door, but this again doesn't allow the stairs to be aligned with the door, negating the whole idea of this approach, so that is another non starter when you talk about moving the doors.

If you try and move the wheelchair further back still, you will have to remove several seats to give the wheelchair enough room to turn and to be able to have sufficient space, this will result in the loss of at least two, perhaps four seats, in addition to standing space.

Scenario B: Move the Stairwell
Personally the better of the two options, but that would have still negative impacts.

- It would create a longer staircase, which increases the time it takes for passengers to get down the case, which less mobile passengers may not be happy with.
- It would certainly mean the removal of at least two seats downstairs to allow the staircase to be longer.
- It would could also mean the removal of two seats upstairs to allow for the longer staircase and the structure and the support it needs.

So whilst I agree that the current setup may not be ideal in some aspects, there are issues relating to a reduction in capacity and space that would come from the moving of the doors. The current layout is best use of space, whilst the layout may not be the best in terms of getting people to use the middle doors, the fact is that a large number of people just don't know if the doors will open, so they'll always play it safe and go to the front door.

The best way for drivers who are willing to use the middle doors to encourage their use is to use them at every stop it is safe to do so, regardless if anyone is waiting at them or not, then the message will soon get across that the driver is going to use them, at the moment you have some drivers who plain refuse to use them, others who will use them but only when asked, and others that will use them only if people are waiting literally right at the doors, and (rarely) drivers who will use them regularly.

Until drivers use doors at every stop when it is safe to do so, doubt will always be in the mind of some of the public about whether they should wait at them or not, true some people won't go to the middle doors anyway, but that is a habit that has been built up over the years of not expecting them to open and if some people honestly think it's 100% down to the passengers then they really need to go out there and see what it is like, because the fact is the drivers are not using them properly either.

And it's not just drivers who are not using middle doors. Only a few weeks ago on a 4 a driver used the middle doors at O'Connell Bridge on a jam packed service, much to the appreciation of the passengers, following which, an inspector got on the bus, and promptly let the driver know that he was not happy with the use of the doors, the driver used them at Trinity anyway, I hope that he did not get in any trouble for being customer focused and actually making huge differences to dwell times.

LXFlyer

Just to point out that the basic design of the GT Class bus IS off-the-shelf. All of the Wrights Gemini double decks in London have the same design in terms of door placement and stair location.

My own view is that the announcements regarding the doors should be withdrawn. Before any attempt is made to put the centre doors into full operation, a full audit of every bus stop in Dublin needs to be made and proper infrastructure put in place.

Look around next time you're out. How many bus stops have bus stop cage markings on the road that allow for buses to:
- Pull in
- Straighten up
- Stop
- Pull out

The vast majority don't. Local authorities don't seem to have any design standards for this whatsoever, despite full guidelines having been drawn up by TfL which could be implemented here. At the moment the cages are just painted on the road willy nilly as an indication of a bus stop, but are totally insufficient for safe operation of multiple doors.

The city centre stops are often completely unsuitable for multiple bus operation.

Until the local authorities play their part and start taking this sort of thing seriously, I don't see centre door operation becoming the norm.

corktina

In my Home Town they installed a raised platform at the kerb to match the wheel-chair accessible facility and did away with middle doors altogether. Works quite well but then the gentile folk there are savvy enough to wait for everyone to exit before trying to board.

GLaDOS

I use the 1 route several times a week and I'd say the middle door is kept closed more often than not. Easier just to use the main door.

devnull

I agree with what you are saying LXflyer - but the issue is that even at stops where it is clearly safe to use double doors, drivers are not using them, it's not as simple as, drivers will not use them in badly designed bus stops and will at ones which clearly are.

When some drivers have stated safety, it's simply an excuse that is being used not to operate them a lot of the time, as I've said before, there are many badly designed bus stops in Dublin and I'd understand more if the doors were not being used at such stop, but some drivers plain don't want to use them full stop.

devnull

corktina wrote: »

In my Home Town they installed a raised platform at the kerb to match the wheel-chair accessible facility and did away with middle doors altogether.

The dwell time of Dublin Bus is ridiculous though. The money that would be saved through the need for less vehicles with a better fare system and multi door operation would be significant.

If you take the 123 southbound in the morning, it'll take at least 2 minutes to unload at O'Connell Street, and almost another 2 minutes to board everyone. Repeat the same exercise at D'Olier Street, and Dame Street and you spend much more time letting people on and off than you do on the move.

In some European cities with two or more doors, you'll rarely see dwell times over 10 seconds, and that is with the same amount of passengers that will take 3-4 minutes to alight and board on Dublin Bus. Repeat that for a few stops and you'll see a huge difference.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying LXflyer - but the issue is that even at stops where it is clearly safe to use double doors, drivers are not using them, it's not as simple as, drivers will not use them in badly designed bus stops and will at ones which clearly are.

When some drivers have stated safety, it's simply an excuse that is being used not to operate them a lot of the time, as I've said before, there are many badly designed bus stops in Dublin and I'd understand more if the doors were not being used at such stop.

Frankly the doors should be used as standard or not at all. It just creates confusion otherwise.

The local authorities are a disgrace in this regard - it is just simply not good enough.

devnull

Completely agree - In relation to the local authorities, the lack of interest they have shown in bus infrastructure and bus stops over the years is a disgrace as you say. I know that the applications for bus stop placements have now been transferred from the Garda to the local councils, but from what I've seen that has made no changes, in-fact, if it's really the case that the reason Aircoach don't have stops on the new Ballsbridge stops is because of a hold up on the local authorities end, it's made things much worse.

Vahevala

I get the 4/7 quite regularly and need to get off at College Green, that stop is not the easiest to get off at if they don't use the centre doors, it is like a stampede to fight your way off the bus.

The problem with these buses is that you are never sure if the driver is going to use them and if he isn't, you could easily end up missing your stop trying to fight your way off the bus

bass1234

very, very simple

passenger falls getting on or off bus at front doors, they sue dublin bus, dublin bus is liable

passenger falls getting on or off bus at middle doors , they sue driver, driver is personally liable

thats it, no big driver conspiracy

Five Lamps

bass1234 wrote: »

very, very simple

passenger falls getting on or off bus at front doors, they sue dublin bus, dublin bus is liable

passenger falls getting on or off bus at middle doors , they sue driver, driver is personally liable

thats it, no big driver conspiracy

How could the driver be liable?

devnull

Five Lamps wrote: »

How could the driver be liable?

For some reason pretty much every capital in the whole of Europe manages to have bog standard doors in the middle of the bus like the front door and gets by fine.

Meanwhile in Dublin we go the extra mile, by having a mirror, CCTV directly looking out the doors with a dedicated screen in the drivers cab, sliding instead of fold up doors and a very loud alarm. Yet still it's unsafe.

Something red comes to mind, and it's certainly not a bearded gentlemans hat or a reindeer.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

For some reason pretty much every capital in the whole of Europe manages to have bog standard doors in the middle of the bus like the front door and gets by fine.

Meanwhile in Dublin we go the extra mile, by having a mirror, CCTV directly looking out the doors with a dedicated screen in the drivers cab, sliding instead of fold up doors and a very loud alarm. Yet still it's unsafe.

Something red comes to mind, and it's certainly not a bearded gentlemans hat or a reindeer.

But the basic infrastructure for safe operation on the street is not there - and that is the fundamental problem.

Sort that out and then there is no longer any excuse.

devnull

I agree with the principle of the fact the doors should not be operated when it is not safe to do so, nowhere did I say that I think they should be open in that cases, but when it is safe to do so the doors should be used. That is not happening at the moment in enough cases.

My point is safety is being used as a blanket excuse to not use the doors by some drivers whether or not it is unsafe, that is unacceptable and shows the lack of customer focus and that is what annoys people more than not.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying LXflyer - but the issue is that even at stops where it is clearly safe to use double doors, drivers are not using them, it's not as simple as, drivers will not use them in badly designed bus stops and will at ones which clearly are.

When some drivers have stated safety, it's simply an excuse that is being used not to operate them a lot of the time, as I've said before, there are many badly designed bus stops in Dublin and I'd understand more if the doors were not being used at such stop, but some drivers plain don't want to use them full stop.

The problem is there that you end up with a completely confused situation, passengers can't see nor have any interest in seeing if the stop is safe, the center doors opened last time so I will wait here, oops not opening and the situation the op describes ensues.
Some drivers take the view that consistency is preferable and avoids confusion, so they just wont use them at all.

What lxflyer suggests is correct, fix all the stops, address the parking issues etc then there is no excuse for not using them.

fta93

They use them regularly on my buses (29A and 31). Only problem arises when the bus is relatively full and people are standing, and sometimes leaning against the doors.

Five Lamps

fta93 wrote: »

They use them regularly on my buses (29A and 31). Only problem arises when the bus is relatively full and people are standing, and sometimes leaning against the doors.

Presumably when upstairs is completely empty.

dfx-

My experience of double doors on DB is that they are used and are completely pointless.

A waste of seating space, a specification demanded by people who don't get the bus.

maringo

Felt like a right twit in Surrey when I went to the front door to get off. The driver looked at me as if I was mad and directed me to the middle door. Another bad habit picked up commuting in Dublin. Happy Christmas y'all

SpaceTime

Anywhere I've ever used busses, you cannot use the front door to exit.

Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann City services (i.e. CIE) are absolutely weird in this regard.

I think they're just obsessed with the notion that people might evade fares.

Most of Europe's busses work on a similar principle to the Luas i.e. open all doors, board and tickets should be valid. If you have an invalid ticket you get a hefty fine.

In most cases you validate a ticket on-board the bus with ticket machines located at various points along the bus (usually long bendy busses).

For some reason CIE comes up with problems that nobody else anywhere in Europe seems to have.

Irish passenger behaviour's no different and streets are the same!

Conway635

AlekSmart wrote: »

Driver is an eejit...report the incident.

My own experiences are diametrically opposite...no matter how many Ladylike ehortations to Exit via the Centre Doors are played,my congregation will line up for Front Door Communion,then give out stink when I despatch them back to the Centre Door.

Alek,

You can blame your fellow drivers for that I'm afraid.

Like me, those passengers will have tried to use the centre doors on a couple of occasions, and been left high and dry.

When the GTs were introduced on the first route (7) lots of passengers heeded the announcement and waited at the centre doors, only to give up in frustration, sometimes even missing their stop. These passengers on this and every other route will never believe the announcement again.

They come to the front of your bus Alek because they cannot afford to assume that they have won the lottery, elected an honest politician, or encountered a bus driver who actually opens the centre doors. All of these things do happen from time to time - I won €3 on the lottery just last week - but they cannot be *relied upon*.

For me the last straw was waiting at the centre doors of a 151 in Dame Street, fully pulled in to kerb, no safety issue, and then having to fight my way past a huge crowd of incoming pax to get to the front just as the driver closed the front doors. He sighed dramatically and opened them again for me, and muttered something under his breath.

I'm sorry Alek, but when it comes to faith in operation of the centre doors your colleagues have irredeemably P***ed away all the credulity and goodwill of the travelling public.

C635

cgcsb

I always use the front doors because the bus driver never opens the centre doors.

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

My experience of double doors on DB is that they are used and are completely pointless.

A waste of seating space, a specification demanded by people who don't get the bus.

Thats quite true dfx.

Over the years,quite a few people have wondered aloud as to why Dublin Bus reverted to single-door specification on its vehicles post KD era.

One of the main reasons behind this was the then imminence of Low-Floor and Disability Access legislation in the industry.

London was used as a source of substantial statistical information,which, when analysed,revealed a surprise.

The London Transport Users Committee,now known as London Travelwatch,complaint monitoring process featured constant and ongoing complaints that nowhere near enough SEATS were available to passengers downstairs.

Whilst Regularity,Reliability and Cost were all expected to be writ large in the scale of stuff to be given-out about,it turned out that the availability of seating in the lower-saloons of Double Deck vehicles was number 3 in the sweepstakes after the two R's.

At that time (Mid 1990's) several London dual-doored designs were incredibly lacking in lower-saloon seating capacity,with (AFAIR) one Plaxton President design having only 17 seats in the lower saloon.

Dublin Bus,not unreasonably,decided to maximize seating capacity and thus was created the AV specification,which I contend has served the company and Dublin very well indeed.

It is worth noting that the latest GT class,for all of the NTA derived hi-tech specification,has a substantially lower overall seating capacity than the AV's being directly replaced. (76 vs 68).

Having operated most of BAC's dual-door vehicles myself including DF, Van-Hool and KD & KC classes I have become somewhat less supportive of the concept as it can be utilized in Dublin.

I now believe that multiple door operation is best suited to a Boarding at Any Door scenario,with NO driver involvement at all,other than operating the doors themselves.

The success of this principle was proven quite clearly with the London Bus Citaro Artic programme on such routes as the 73,where the capability of the Citaro's to clear large numbers of people from busy Bus Stops in very short order,has never been approached by their Double Deck replacements,hybrid or not !!

However,the non-monitored,multiple door boarding scenario does require additional checking resources,which even London Buses were stretched to provide.

Currently,with the Fare-Stage system as operated by Dublin Bus,there is little possibility of Dual Door operation providing enough extra efficiency to compensate for the loss of seating revenue and additional build cost of the DD systems.

IF the NTA are prepared to cost and fund a move to Flat-Fare or Distance Based exit validation,then by all means tool up for it,but if Fare-Stage Operation is to remain the basic system then maximize capacity.

SO...if I were the NTA mulling over the Vehicle Specifications for 2014 and beyond,I would be looking to maximize that seating capacity onece again.

There are many variables associated with improving operational efficiency,but the actual vehicle dooring is,I now feel,somewhat down the list.

AlekSmart

Conway635 wrote: »

Alek,

You can blame your fellow drivers for that I'm afraid.

Like me, those passengers will have tried to use the centre doors on a couple of occasions, and been left high and dry.

When the GTs were introduced on the first route (7) lots of passengers heeded the announcement and waited at the centre doors, only to give up in frustration, sometimes even missing their stop. These passengers on this and every other route will never believe the announcement again.

They come to the front of your bus Alek because they cannot afford to assume that they have won the lottery, elected an honest politician, or encountered a bus driver who actually opens the centre doors. All of these things do happen from time to time - I won €3 on the lottery just last week - but they cannot be *relied upon*.

For me the last straw was waiting at the centre doors of a 151 in Dame Street, fully pulled in to kerb, no safety issue, and then having to fight my way past a huge crowd of incoming pax to get to the front just as the driver closed the front doors. He sighed dramatically and opened them again for me, and muttered something under his breath.

I'm sorry Alek, but when it comes to faith in operation of the centre doors your colleagues have irredeemably P***ed away all the credulity and goodwill of the travelling public.

C635

All great up to a point C635,however my daily experience relates to the significant numbers of people who will walk past the Centre Doors I have ALREADY Opened,after the Exit via Centre Door messsage has been banging away during the journey.

When I direct these people back to the Centre Door,I can recieve several levels of response,usually involving an expletive or three....;)

Additionally,in these situations,when I delay the opening of the FRONT Door to reinforce the point,those passengers waiting to board may well leg-it back to where they see the exiting passengers emerging from.....Crew Resource Management indeed...?

But,all of that aside,with 160 Dual Doored Vehicles out of an approx 900 strong total,then the issue is doomed to remain,like politics,Local.

However it does provide some food for thought for those now tasked with moving the Bus Service forward even if only to distract them from seeking new areas to cutback or otherwise tinker with what we currently have.

I'd venture to suggest that it's not only Busdrivers who are capable of "Pis***g" folks off,it's just the Busdrivers have to do it in public....:)

L1011

bass1234 wrote: »

very, very simple

passenger falls getting on or off bus at front doors, they sue dublin bus, dublin bus is liable

passenger falls getting on or off bus at middle doors , they sue driver, driver is personally liable

thats it, no big driver conspiracy

Where did you hear this from, as its completely made up?

bass1234

MYOB wrote: »

Where did you hear this from, as its completely made up?

Not made up
Who told you it was made up? Is this your opinion?
Passenger fall at center doors, driver will be held responsible
None of the know drivers who frequent this site have said otherwise because it is true

bk

I have to say, the safety thing is totally overblown.

I see triple and more door buses being successfully used all over Europe, in particular, further East.

Yes, sometimes they have great high quality bus stops, however I often also see them being operated into ditches. Much worse bus stops then in Dublin and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

As others have said, it seems DB likes to create problems for itself that don't exist anywhere else in Europe!

I agree that the ideal situation is triple or more doors, that you can enter/exit any door, with no driver interaction. I believe we may get this with the new busways, which will operate more like the Luas.

Yes such operations require more ticket checkers, but again we should be looking more to Poland and Germany then London. In Poland and Germany, I don't believe the ticket checkers are employees of the company, instead they are contracted in, paid minimum wage, but get commission for each ticket dodger they catch.

They are often ex-military types, that there is no messing with and as you can imagine because they are earning commission they catch everyone, scumbag or business man.

Also because they are on short term contracts, the bus company can increase or decrease their numbers as needed. Their presence also has a positive effect on anti-social behaviour.

Having said all that, I have seen DB style double door buses be used very successfully in Amsterdam. You enter and tag-on at the front door, you exit and tag-off at the center (and rear door if a triple).

The two things that make it work in Amsterdam are:
- No driver interaction, all based on tag-on/tag-off distance based smart card ticketing.
- Rear doors used at absolutely every stop.

hatchets mcgovern

Dont report anything. Have you people nothing better to do than complain about something as trivial as doors on a bus! ffs

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

I have to say, the safety thing is totally overblown.

I see triple and more door buses being successfully used all over Europe, in particular, further East.

Yes, sometimes they have great high quality bus stops, however I often also see them being operated into ditches. Much worse bus stops then in Dublin and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

As others have said, it seems DB likes to create problems for itself that don't exist anywhere else in Europe!

I agree that the ideal situation is triple or more doors, that you can enter/exit any door, with no driver interaction. I believe we may get this with the new busways, which will operate more like the Luas.

Yes such operations require more ticket checkers, but again we should be looking more to Poland and Germany then London. In Poland and Germany, I don't believe the ticket checkers are employees of the company, instead they are contracted in, paid minimum wage, but get commission for each ticket dodger they catch.

They are often ex-military types, that there is no messing with and as you can imagine because they are earning commission they catch everyone, scumbag or business man.

Also because they are on short term contracts, the bus company can increase or decrease their numbers as needed. Their presence also has a positive effect on anti-social behaviour.

Having said all that, I have seen DB style double door buses be used very successfully in Amsterdam. You enter and tag-on at the front door, you exit and tag-off at the center (and rear door if a triple).

The two things that make it work in Amsterdam are:
- No driver interaction, all based on tag-on/tag-off distance based smart card ticketing.
- Rear doors used at absolutely every stop.

I largely agree with BK on this "Safety Preoccupation" issue.

However I suggest it has little to do with a Dublin Bus corporate desire to be uber-safe,as the entire "Safety-First" field is now a huge stand-alone Industry of itself.

The Public Transport sector is one where Workplace Heath & Safety is closely interlinked with Public Liability,another field which dominates our ENTIRE ability to function societally.

One has only to note and consider the dreadful situation which saw the Death of young Emma Sloan on Dublin's O 'Connell St,to see where adherence to a percieved Health & Safety or Public Liability risks can lead to an inability to cope with immediate reality.

Whilst that tragic individual case remains under investigation,the issues surrounding how our society has become bound up with "But Iffery" to an extent which is causing real difficulties for those who actually recognise and accept that risk is an integral part of human life itself.

To suggest that....."DB likes to create problems for itself that don't exist anywhere else in Europe!" is simply untenable and wrong.

Dublin Bus's H&S policies have closely followed legislative requirements,with particular reference to how H&S and Public Liability legislation has been implimented IN THE IRISH COURTS.

Public Transport operators in The "Rest of Europe" operate within the constraints or supports of their own legal systems,a significant number of which,tend to require their citizens to "Mind themselves" to a far greater extent than the Irish one.

Even in the UK,I regularly note with interest,how Public Transport systems operate with a far greater slant towards Operational Efficiency and Speed,than our native concentration on Slowness and Safety.

It is instructional,for example,to see the actual amounts a UK or European Court considers an appropriate award for Personal Injury or more particularly,"Special Damages" when directly compared to an Irish Court.

Dublin Bus is just like ANY Irish Company operating in the Public Domain,it's management has no option but to attempt to devise and impliment a 100% Safe Operational Culture,even though EVERYBODY knows it to be an entirely theoretical process with NO basis in reality,except MASSIVE cost.

Any regular traveller on Public Transport systems in other EU cities may well not notice how more robust the entire operation is than our own,but a Parisian,Berliner or Nicoisian will generally be a far more adept at "Holding the Bar" without requiring a pre-recorded announcement to tell them !

The introduction of the Personal Injuries Assement Board,now the Personal Injuries Board was the first recognition that somewhing was amiss in the State of the Irish Legal Denmark.

However,as is evident from it's website the PIB could now be seen as a somewhat inviting location for an injured party or even somebody contemplating an injury !!!.... http://www.injuriesboard.ie/eng/

So sure,BK is totally correct to identify this "Elf n Saferty" gig as a major impediment to an effective and efficient lifestyle,but responsibility simply CANNOT be laid entirely at the door of individual companies who have no control of how the Legislation is operated.

monument

hatchets mcgovern wrote: »

Dont report anything. Have you people nothing better to do than complain about something as trivial as doors on a bus! ffs

Don't post off-topic again and please read the Commuting and Transport charter before posting again.

Do not reply to this post.

- Moderator

MGWR

bk wrote: »

So can someone please tell me, what is the current policy and practical use of Double Doors on Dublin Bus now?

Are the double doors supposed to be used at every stop now?

We have heard Alek complain about passengers ignoring the automated announcements to use the rear door to exit and instead using the front door, but who can blame them when I saw the following incident happen yesterday.

So I'm on a new GT class double door bus on route 1 into town. I believe this route is all GT class buses now. And for the first time I'm impressed as I watch all the passengers actually listen to the announcements and actually wait by the rear door to exit as it approaches O'Connell St.

Well you can guess what happens next, yup, we stop on O'Connell St and the driver point blank refuses to open the rear door! Cue chaos as the passengers scramble to use the front door against the flow of passengers who have already started boarding up front!!

And hilariously as all of this is happening, the automated announcement comes on asking people to use the rear door!!!

So who can blame passengers for ignoring the automated announcements when such idiocy continues to be carried out by some DB staff.

This is a reference to the centre door, then?

Overseas, the centre or rear door has been operated by the exiting passenger for several decades. General Motors built them on the "old look" buses dating back to the 1940s. Why this over-half-century-old precedent has to continue to be ignored by the "Irish Transport System" (CIE) really boggles the mind.

dubrov

dfx- wrote: »

My experience of double doors on DB is that they are used and are completely pointless.

A waste of seating space, a specification demanded by people who don't get the bus.

I stopped using the bus in the morning as I got tired of waiting on O'Connell street for fifteen minutes while people got on /off the bus.

Now I walk as it is much quicker

dubrov

dfx- wrote: »

My experience of double doors on DB is that they are used and are completely pointless.

A waste of seating space, a specification demanded by people who don't get the bus.

I stopped using the bus in the morning as I got tired of waiting on O'connor street for fifteen minutes while people got on /off the bus.

Now I walk as it is much quicker

AlekSmart

dubrov wrote: »

I stopped using the bus in the morning as I got tired of waiting on O'connor street for fifteen minutes while people got on /off the bus.

Now I walk as it is much quicker

Only 15 Minutes...?...Pshaaw...I remember when I wuz a lad,ye'd have to wait a day and a half before you'd set your foot on a char a banc,so crowded were they !!!

_Kaiser_

Have to agree with bk above - this "safety" / fear of litigation excuse is a uniquely DB thing.

Having lived in Amsterdam myself for a few years in the mid-80s, dual/triple-door operation was the norm (and they even had timetables for each particular stop.. something we only got around to 30 years later! :rolleyes:) and worked without a problem no matter where the stop was.

Buying double deck buses (the AV's) without centre doors was moronic - equally buying newer buses with badly placed stairwells/doors (GT's) and then not using the damn things anyway is even more stupid, but was the norm back in the 80s here too with the KC/KDs and older examples.

It's the usual Irish thing I fear.. we import an idea from our former "oppressors" and have to twist it just enough in an attempt to show how grown up/independent we are that we just end up making a mess of it!

It's ironic because we really do rely on "de Brits" to show us the way in this country (probably because the desk-sitting SUV/BMW-driving types making the decisions can't understand dem foreigners in Europe :rolleyes:), but we not only make a mess of the idea, we can't learn from the mistakes either (eg: LEAP) ... oh and we'll do it over budget and late every time too of course!

Ireland.. truly a state in the Irish sense of the word!

AlekSmart

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Have to agree with bk above - this "safety" / fear of litigation excuse is a uniquely DB thing.

Having lived in Amsterdam myself for a few years in the mid-80s, dual/triple-door operation was the norm (and they even had timetables for each particular stop.. something we only got around to 30 years later! :rolleyes:) and worked without a problem no matter where the stop was.

Buying double deck buses (the AV's) without centre doors was moronic - equally buying newer buses with badly placed stairwells/doors (GT's) and then not using the damn things anyway is even more stupid, but was the norm back in the 80s here too with the KC/KDs and older examples.

It's the usual Irish thing I fear.. we import an idea from our former "oppressors" and have to twist it just enough in an attempt to show how grown up/independent we are that we just end up making a mess of it!

It's ironic because we really do rely on "de Brits" to show us the way in this country (probably because the desk-sitting SUV/BMW-driving types making the decisions can't understand dem foreigners in Europe :rolleyes:), but we not only make a mess of the idea, we can't learn from the mistakes either (eg: LEAP) ... oh and we'll do it over budget and late every time too of course!

Ireland.. truly a state in the Irish sense of the word!

Not a uniquely DB thing your Kaisership...but significantly IRISH for sure,which most likely explains the somewhat odd insurance arrangements surrounding the Luas BXD construction contract,whereby it appears the RPA have assumed FULL liability for the Construction phase...allowing the contractors to breathe somewhat easier...doncha know

To be sure,to be sure......exemplified by the high-profile inviting of the Madrid Metro Man Senor Manuel Melis (AKA 3M) to advise the RPA/Irish Government on how to set about building a Metro ....Now Sen.Melis having already achieved some success in this field could be said to have a bit of track-record (:p) here......anyway he came,he saw and he advised....basic good common sense stuff...Get every agency to agree on a simple plan BEFORE starting work.....Once started,keep working 24/7/365 until completion......We thanked Sen.Melis,sent him back to Madrid as fast as possible,then totally ignored his proferred advice..or should I say,are currently in the process of more comprehensively ignoring it all over again...just so as he knows who's in charge here !!!

hmmm

Until such time as whoever runs DB decides to use the center doors, the announcement should be stopped. It's yet another oirish thing of being told one thing and users being trained to ignore the instructions.

The NTA should also make it a requirement for any future tenders that center doors are used, and routes are ultimately withdrawn in the event of non-compliance.

dfx-

dubrov wrote: »

I stopped using the bus in the morning as I got tired of waiting on O'Connell street for fifteen minutes while people got on /off the bus.

Now I walk as it is much quicker

What bus do you get that takes 15 minutes solely for loading/unloading? :eek:

Is there a driver change involved? I know the 11 waits at the GPO for drivers and I've been on some 122s that change outside Easons, but just for people to get on/off..well that would be a record.

As it happens, I was on a 65 tonight (EV3) which had a ticket problem with one customer and the machine. The lack of double doors had no impact whatsoever on that bus moving off quicker or slower.

dubrov

It was the 123 during morning rush hour.
The biggest cause of the delay was people not having their money ready to pay. They would ask the driver the cost and then begin counting out their change.

SpaceTime

It's mindbogglingly strange they can't just implement the model of ticket checking used sucessefully on Luas and continental style ticketing where cash payment is usually about 300% more expensive.

There is very little incentive to use prepay cards here and they don't even exist in cities like Cork, Limerick and Galway.

AlekSmart

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's mindbogglingly strange they can't just implement the model of ticket checking used sucessefully on Luas and continental style ticketing where cash payment is usually about 300% more expensive.

There is very little incentive to use prepay cards here and they don't even exist in cities like :eek: Cork:eek:, Limerick and Galway.

Stand back everybody.........:D

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/leap-card-to-come-to-cork-2/

http://corkindependent.com/20131107/news/bus-eireann-to-bring-leap-card-to-cork-S75168.html

Build it and they will come....next stage....De Tramway,boy !!!!

SpaceTime

Cork had a pretty extensive tramway back in the days whey CIE wasn't around..

The best solution for Cork would be to let the two local authorities create a Cork Transit Authority and put all routes out to tender under the CATS (Cork Area Transit System) brand they've proposed in a few reports.

If CIE companies win the tender, they can run the routes. If not, someone else can!

I've lived in similar sized cities in France, Spain and Belgium and the Cork transit system is just a compete joke in comparison and it's entirely CIE's responsibility. There is complete lack of local accountability to the Cork public which is a very big part of the issue.

Dublin Bus, DART etc tend to become national issues and there's some accountability via the Dail and the media but the other cities are generally forgotten about by CIE, particularly Bus Eireann.

I would rather see Dublin transit in the control of Dublin local authorities too. You need local accountability for these things as they're local issues!

Public transport networks are intrinsically part of a city's infrastructure. I find it very strange that they're being run by a national QANGO and semi state.

devnull

dubrov wrote: »

It was the 123 during morning rush hour.
The biggest cause of the delay was people not having their money ready to pay. They would ask the driver the cost and then begin counting out their change.

The 123 southbound in the mornings? That is absolutely chronic for dwell time around 8am to 8.45am from the city center, it can take you some mornings around 25-30 minutes or so to get to St James Hospital with the vast majority of that being dwell time.

You're taking 3 minutes for people to get off at O'Connell Street and another 2 for people to get on, and the cycle is repeated at D'Olier Street, and Dame Street and it's a pure nightmare. There are occasionally double doored buses on there, but they're rarely used even at these stops, When they are the dwell time is cut dramatically.

All the above results in, is more buses being required for a timetable, which leads to increased costs and then the inevitable need to raise more cash through fare rises. Dublin Bus has the biggest dwell times of any capital city I have been in by quite some distance, all those who think there isn't a problem with dwell times clearly aren't traveling at peak times or on the busy routes such as the 4, 7 and the 123 in the mornings especially. On the quieter routes then double doors may not make as much difference to dwell times, but the busier ones they make a huge difference.

dfx-

dubrov wrote: »

It was the 123 during morning rush hour.
The biggest cause of the delay was people not having their money ready to pay. They would ask the driver the cost and then begin counting out their change.

double doors wouldn't make any difference though. That's people's unpreparedness rather than access or egress from the bus.

The 123 is also the worst possible route to lose seats downstairs from.