IKC Registration Debate

Lemlin

This is a topic I meant to start a while back but didn't get the time.

I'd be interested in what people see as the real benefits of IKC registration?

For me, IKC registration is something which has developed into little more than an aid for puppy farmers and backyard breeders.

People see this magical promise of "IKC Registration" on advertisements and believe they are getting some assurance of breed standard. Which, in fact, they are not getting at all.

Have a look through Donedeal and other such sites. The majority of pups are IKC registered. So if people were keeping to the IKC code of ethics how would so many ads from the same breeders be reappearing?

I have spoken before about a local backyard breeder I know of. He is now into his fourth set of pups from one female in 18 months. All pups have appeared on Donedeal as "IKC registered".

I actually contacted the IKC on behalf of a couple who bought a pup off this man at the start of last December and couldn't get their papers. The IKC just told me the pup had been registered and to contact him again re the papers as he had them. They were not at all interested when I mentioned the problems this couple had (couldn't get papers for six months, pup not at all as advertised) and just told me to contact him again.

I also recently saw some UK Kennel Club papers. I noted they have a section for "Health Screening" which lists the relevant tests the parents have undergone and their results. Why could this not be incorporated on IKC papers also?

I've seen people on here say that papers are an assurance of the parentage of your pup. Do they show anything that a print out of the mother and father's pedigree don't? And how do people even know that the dog they are shown is even the actual parent?

This probably won't be a favourable topic for some who swear by IKC registration but I believe a thread needs to be here to help educate those who don't have this knowledge about the reality of that ad online which states that IKC registration practically means their puppy is a Crufts champion in the making.

meoklmrk91

IKC reg means nothing, it does not mean that you are buying from a responsible breeder who will be on the other end of the phone if anything goes wrong, it does not mean that you are buying a healthy pup. All it is is a piece of paper with the dogs lineage.

I never got my own dogs papers as his breeder swanned off to Australia. It didn't mean that much to me as he is a neutered pet who was never going to be shown or bred from but it was part of the agreement. I would be far more selective if I was ever buying from a breeder again, however I suspect that my current dog will be the first and last dog I buy, I think it will be rescue all the way for me from here on out.

jimf

what pisses me off is the ikc can see that bitches are being overbred as your post above stated 4 litters in 18months from the same bitch

this is a total and utter disgrace at the end of the day they are the people that are putting all breedings on their database surely to jaysus something here should show a red flag

sorry if this reads like a rant but it just really pisses me off to see a poor animal being mistreated this way and they have the tools to highlight and at least make it impossible for such breeders to be able to register there pups and reap the profits

I know this is not going to stop the backyard breeders but it may be another tool in the fight against these people

Bullseye1

Does the Kennel Club even audit breeders and check on their facilities? It had certainly failed in many of its duties. It's really up to the Breeders Clubs to ensure that their breed and breeders meet the highest standards.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

what pisses me off is the ikc can see that bitches are being overbred as your post above stated 4 litters in 18months from the same bitch

this is a total and utter disgrace at the end of the day they are the people that are putting all breedings on their database surely to jaysus something here should show a red flag

sorry if this reads like a rant but it just really pisses me off to see a poor animal being mistreated this way and they have the tools to highlight and at least make it impossible for such breeders to be able to register there pups and reap the profits

I know this is not going to stop the backyard breeders but it may be another tool in the fight against these people

What amazes me is that it goes directly against their shoddy Code of Ethics yet the pups continue to be registered.

Why don't they write back to the breeder and refuse to register the pups?

I've never heard of the IKC refusing to register a litter. Has anyone?

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

What amazes me is that it goes directly against their shoddy Code of Ethics yet the pups continue to be registered.

Why don't they write back to the breeder and refuse to register the pups?

I've never heard of the IKC refusing to register a litter. Has anyone?

simple answer no I haven't maybe others have

not on the grounds of overbreeding anyway

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

simple answer no I haven't maybe others have

not on the grounds of overbreeding anyway

Have you heard of them declining on any grounds? Just the way you commented "not on the grounds of overbreeding".

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

Have you heard of them declining on any grounds? Just the way you commented "not on the grounds of overbreeding".

a big no again im afraid

Its all a big mess really, I have had 2 situations this year of people actually going to the IKC to recommend a breeder and both turned out to be a disaster.

I do like how cat breeders do it though. You dont actually receive the cats papers until the cat you bought is neutered. But again its up to the breeder to police that.

Lemlin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its all a big mess really, I have had 2 situations this year of people actually going to the IKC to recommend a breeder and both turned out to be a disaster.

Did they go to the IKC direct or the specific breed club?

madred006

Lemlin wrote: »

Did they go to the IKC direct or the specific breed club?

IKC papers count for diddly squat and unfortunately I have learned the hard way . My wife researched bernese breeders and found one that was IKC registered. She set off last Monday to get my Xmas box and greatest ever surprise , a beautifull female Berner . But after a week I noticed her eyes were not getting any better after daily cleaning . Took her to vet today to be told she has umbilical hernia , and entropia of eyelids which will prevent me breeding off her with my dog . So papers count for very little .

Lemlin

madred006 wrote: »

IKC papers count for diddly squat and unfortunately I have learned the hard way . My wife researched bernese breeders and found one that was IKC registered. She set off last Monday to get my Xmas box and greatest ever surprise , a beautifull female Berner . But after a week I noticed her eyes were not getting any better after daily cleaning . Took her to vet today to be told she has umbilical hernia , and entropia of eyelids which will prevent me breeding off her with my dog . So papers count for very little .

Do you not have a contract that you can return the pup? Any pup I've ever bought I ensure that I have 14 to 28 days to allow me to monitor the pup to ensure its health and have my vet look at it.

I also advise anyone who seeks advice from me re pups that they are getting that they should be demanding the same. In fact, if they are buying from a reputable breeder, it should be offered.

My own recent litter of pups had a contract stipulating 28 days (this allowed the buyer to have the pup vet checked at its 12 week inoculation) for them to have the pup checked.

I would be contacting the breeder immediately re your pup.

madred006

Lemlin wrote: »

Do you not have a contract that you can return the pup? Any pup I've ever bought I ensure that I have 14 to 28 days to allow me to monitor the pup to ensure its health and have my vet look at it.

I also advise anyone who seeks advice from me re pups that they are getting that they should be demanding the same. In fact, if they are buying from a reputable breeder, it should be offered.

My own recent litter of pups had a contract stipulating 28 days (this allowed the buyer to have the pup vet checked at its 12 week inoculation) for them to have the pup checked.

I would be contacting the breeder immediately re your pup.

As stated this was my Xmas present so not sure about contract , but it is a pity that such a fabulous breed is been exploited , my vet said that the problems were almost certainly herreditary and to breed from such a dog is just ignorant and disloyal to the breed .Will ring owner in morn to get issue resolved but even after a week we have become attached to her .

DBB

In fairness madred006, it looks like ye fell into a the Christmas puppy trap.
You simply would not have got your puppy-in-a-box for Christmas from a reputable breeder, because reputable breeders are all too aware of the problems associated with selling pups at this time of year. Indeed, reputable breeders will simply not breed from their bitches if the litter is going to coincide with the Christmas market. Disreputable breeders, on the contrary, very specifically breed to have pups ready for the Christmas market, so they can hook the uninitiated when the silly season arrives. Had your wife given the IKC a call during the course of her research, I'm pretty sure she'd have been told all of this in no uncertain terms. I'm sure she'd have been directed to contact the Bernese MD Club of Ireland, one of the best breed societies in the country, and their details are readily available on the IKC website.

People can diss the IKC all they want here, but the IKC don't pretend to be a quality control system, and they should not be criticised for not doing something they're not designed to do. There is no quality control system, save perhaps for some breed societies which compel their members to far stricter T&Cs than the IKC mothership, the Bernese MD Club is just such an example.

At the end of the day, it's caveat emptor, and puppy buyers themselves need to shoulder a chunk of the responsibility for who they choose to buy their puppies from: the IKC cannot stop people from being foolhardy. Anyone selling pups for Christmas is dodgy.. this is not a difficult thing to find out in the course of the most basic research. And you, unfortunately, got diddled, and in the process have helped to fund what amounts to a puppy farmer to further their dodgy-ness.
Bernese MDs are great, but they are riddled with health problems, and die young. Your brand new puppy is the one that's suffering most now, due to the greed of the cowboy who sold him to you, and due to your OH choosing to buy a dog at this time of the year.
They have many, many faults, but none of this madness is the fault of the IKC.

madred006

DBB wrote: »

In fairness madred006, it looks like ye fell into a the Christmas puppy trap.
You simply would not have got your puppy-in-a-box for Christmas from a reputable breeder, because reputable breeders are all too aware of the problems associated with selling pups at this time of year. Indeed, reputable breeders will simply not breed from their bitches if the litter is going to coincide with the Christmas market. Disreputable breeders, on the contrary, very specifically breed to have pups ready for the Christmas market, so they can hook the uninitiated when the silly season arrives. Had your wife given the IKC a call during the course of her research, I'm pretty sure she'd have been told all of this in no uncertain terms.

People can diss the IKC all they want here, but the IKC don't pretend to be a quality control system, and they should not be criticised for not doing something they're not designed to do. There is no quality control system, save perhaps for some breed societies which compel their members to far stricter T&Cs than the IKC mothership.

At the end of the day, it's caveat emptor, and puppy buyers themselves need to shoulder a chunk of the responsibility for who they choose to buy their puppies from: the IKC cannot stop people from being foolhardy. Anyone selling pups for Christmas is dodgy.. this is not a difficult thing to find out in the course of the most basic research. And you, unfortunately, got diddled, and in the process have helped to fund what amounts to a puppy farmer to further their dodgy-ness.
Bernese MDs are great, but they are riddled with health problems, and die young. Your brand new puppy is the one that's suffering most now, due to the greed of the cowboy who sold him to you, and due to your OH choosing to buy a dog at this time of the year.
They have many, many faults, but none of this madness is the fault of the IKC.

I see ur point and to a certain degree agree with you , but do you not think that if the IKC are to endorse the breeds that there should be some sort of checks in place , maybe not I don't know . OH purchased pub in October and paid deposit on it and only collected it last Monday so hardly her fault . Breeders told her it was vet checked and all in order . Just off phone to breeder now and he will refund me the money . Now I don't know should I get her the treatment she needs and neuter her and keep her , or return her in morn , part of me worried she won't be treated properly . Like all breeds they have problems they say 3 years a pup 3 years a loyal friend the rest a bonus or something along those lines .

jimf

madred006 wrote: »

I see ur point and to a certain degree agree with you , but do you not think that if the IKC are to endorse the breeds that there should be some sort of checks in place , maybe not I don't know . OH purchased pub in October and paid deposit on it and only collected it last Monday so hardly her fault . Breeders told her it was vet checked and all in order . Just off phone to breeder now and he will refund me the money . Now I don't know should I get her the treatment she needs and neuter her and keep her , or return her in morn , part of me worried she won't be treated properly . Like all breeds they have problems they say 3 years a pup 3 years a loyal friend the rest a bonus or something along those lines .

I must commend you in your line of thought its obvious your so pissed off by this whole episode but still you have it in you to be concerned for this poor little animal good on you

man after my own heart

madred006

jimf wrote: »

I must commend you in your line of thought its obvious your so pissed off by this whole episode but still you have it in you to be concerned for this poor little animal good on you

man after my own heart

I know if I keep her she will make me happy many times over and my family and to return her to someone that might breed from her and not treat her properly would wreck my head she here a week and already a character .

Lemlin

DBB wrote: »

In fairness madred006, it looks like ye fell into a the Christmas puppy trap.
You simply would not have got your puppy-in-a-box for Christmas from a reputable breeder, because reputable breeders are all too aware of the problems associated with selling pups at this time of year. Indeed, reputable breeders will simply not breed from their bitches if the litter is going to coincide with the Christmas market. Disreputable breeders, on the contrary, very specifically breed to have pups ready for the Christmas market, so they can hook the uninitiated when the silly season arrives. Had your wife given the IKC a call during the course of her research, I'm pretty sure she'd have been told all of this in no uncertain terms. I'm sure she'd have been directed to contact the Bernese MD Club of Ireland, one of the best breed societies in the country, and their details are readily available on the IKC website.

People can diss the IKC all they want here, but the IKC don't pretend to be a quality control system, and they should not be criticised for not doing something they're not designed to do. There is no quality control system, save perhaps for some breed societies which compel their members to far stricter T&Cs than the IKC mothership, the Bernese MD Club is just such an example.

At the end of the day, it's caveat emptor, and puppy buyers themselves need to shoulder a chunk of the responsibility for who they choose to buy their puppies from: the IKC cannot stop people from being foolhardy. Anyone selling pups for Christmas is dodgy.. this is not a difficult thing to find out in the course of the most basic research. And you, unfortunately, got diddled, and in the process have helped to fund what amounts to a puppy farmer to further their dodgy-ness.
Bernese MDs are great, but they are riddled with health problems, and die young. Your brand new puppy is the one that's suffering most now, due to the greed of the cowboy who sold him to you, and due to your OH choosing to buy a dog at this time of the year.
They have many, many faults, but none of this madness is the fault of the IKC.

So who is to blame for the amount of IKC registered dogs being sold by backyard breeders and puppy farmers if not the IKC? They are the organisation continuing to register the dogs.

In your experience, and you seem to have a good bit more than myself and others, do they ensure people keep to their code of ethics re how many litters etc.?

It's fairly obvious there's a huge problem out there so why is no work being done to combat it?

Those are the questions I ask.

I realise the IKC has many good points but, like the UK Kennel Club, work needs to start on policing some of these issues.

Knine

madred006 wrote: »

I see ur point and to a certain degree agree with you , but do you not think that if the IKC are to endorse the breeds that there should be some sort of checks in place , maybe not I don't know . OH purchased pub in October and paid deposit on it and only collected it last Monday so hardly her fault . Breeders told her it was vet checked and all in order . Just off phone to breeder now and he will refund me the money . Now I don't know should I get her the treatment she needs and neuter her and keep her , or return her in morn , part of me worried she won't be treated properly . Like all breeds they have problems they say 3 years a pup 3 years a loyal friend the rest a bonus or something along those lines .

Any puppy I am buying I would be giving it my own check over before it comes home with me. That check would include eyes, teeth for bite, feet, tail for kinks, testicles if male, belly for hernia etc. The problems your puppy had could have been spotted before you took them home.

If a buyer is not experienced I would recommend they take someone with them that is.

DBB

madred006 wrote: »

I see ur point and to a certain degree agree with you , but do you not think that if the IKC are to endorse the breeds that there should be some sort of checks in place

I absolutely agree, the IKC could do a whole hell of a lot more... but as it stands right now, the IKC is what it is... it does not pretend to be anything much more than a registration system, and this is a pretty easy thing to find out. Yet still, people are convinced that IKC papers mean their pup is the next Crufts Champion!
The breed societies are a step in the right direction, and the Bernese MD Club are amongst those putting pressure on the powers-that-be to get off their butts to make things better... the UK Kennel Club are much more pro-active in this regard, but then again, it took a huge amount of pressure and embarrassment to force their hand.

OH purchased pub in October and paid deposit on it and only collected it last Monday so hardly her fault . Breeders told her it was vet checked and all in order

Welll, that couple of months gave your OH the chance to do more research! I don't like to say it's her fault because it does sound harsh.... but at the same time, her research cannot have included a simple phone call to either the IKC or the BMD Club... remember that this thread is about how people feel about the shortcomings of the IKC, but this deal your OH made with a dodgy cowboy is not under any control by the IKC. The responsibility for choosing this breeder lies with the person who bought the pup.. sorry to be blunt, but who else is responsible?
Can I ask, did your OH visit the litter after paying the deposit? Where was the pup collected from? And where did your OH find the ad for these pups?

Dodgy breeders will tell you what you want to hear: they are excellent salespeople and consummate at selling their wares. They will even invite buyers to a house to view pups that were ostensibly born and bred there, when in fact the pups were born and bred in a shed 3 counties away, and this is their first visit to that, or any house. These guys know fine well that people know there are certain guidelines to follow when buying a pup, and will try to make it look like that they're satisfying these guidelines.
A reputable breeder will show you all the vet certs, receipts, even encourage you to call the vet! Your OH got duped by trusting a guy selling pups over the internet (I'm guessing).. perhaps this experience will result in more cautious steps being taken in future when sourcing a pup.

Just off phone to breeder now and he will refund me the money .

That's something... an admission of guilt and trying to keep you quiet! I think that many, many disgruntled puppy buyers are silenced by puppy farmers with gestures like this.

Now I don't know should I get her the treatment she needs and neuter her and keep her , or return her in morn , part of me worried she won't be treated properly .

You can be pretty sure the breeder is already making phone calls to track down more buyers for this pup.

madred006

Knine wrote: »

Any puppy I am buying I would be giving it my own check over before it comes home with me. That check would include eyes, teeth for bite, feet, tail for kinks, testicles if male, belly for hernia etc. The problems your puppy had could have been spotted before you took them home.

If a buyer is not experienced I would recommend they take someone with them that is.

Hindsight is a great thing I would have spotted hernia the eyes are difficult to diagnose for a few days in your care .She thought she was doing the right thing and I would never blame her . It's the breeders who I blame for using bad lines and sometimes line breeding that is the problem with this breed. The vet was adamant that all pups would have the eye disorder . And that the hernia was hereditary .

Lemlin

madred006 wrote: »

I know if I keep her she will make me happy many times over and my family and to return her to someone that might breed from her and not treat her properly would wreck my head she here a week and already a character .

I've never been in your situation tbh but I think you need to think about this very carefully. You have bonded with the pup but a sick and unhealthy puppy may cause you alot of future pain, upset and, even, financial strain.

I know a girl with a 3 year old Lab in Fermanagh that has already cost her more than £2000 in vet's fee already. The dog is now even on more medication to keep it calm as it was growing aggressive and the vet believes it is due to its hip pain.

DBB

Lemlin wrote: »

So who is to blame for the amount of IKC registered dogs being sold by backyard breeders and puppy farmers if not the IKC? They are the organisation continuing to register the dogs.

In your experience, and you seem to have a good bit more than myself and others, do they ensure people keep to their code of ethics re how many litters etc.?

It's fairly obvious there's a huge problem out there so why is no work being done to combat it?

Those are the questions I ask.

I realise the IKC has many good points but, like the UK Kennel Club, work needs to start on policing some of these issues.

Lemlin, I'm not getting into any discussion with you, for reasons you're aware of.
I am not interested in entering this debate at all, I was merely trying to get some perspective here: it is utterly unfair for a person to blame the IKC for something the IKC has no control over as it stands right now: a huge amount of the papers I get in with registered dogs are falsified... without digitalising everything, and DNA testing, the IKC can't control this. Even if they are genuinely not adhering to their own code of ethics, that is a total side-argument in the case of this BMD.
In this BMD case, the person made a blindingly obvious mistake, one which a very quick google would have led them to avoid, or a quick call the the IKC or BMD Club would have put to bed. It's not the IKC's fault that they chose not to verify this breeder, nor their fault that the person chose to ignore the good, and very broadly published advice that's freely available out there.

DBB

madred006 wrote: »

It's the breeders who I blame for using bad lines and sometimes line breeding that is the problem with this breed. The vet was adamant that all pups would have the eye disorder . And that the hernia was hereditary .

If there was no market for these cheap online pups, the disreputable breeders would go out of business. These guys aren't breeding dogs for the love of the dogs, they're breeding for money. To them, the dogs are no more or less a commodity than if they were selling cars, TVs or fridges. That's why they need to be avoided in favour of breeders who are reputable, and who are trying to rid breeds of inherent faults: I personally wouldn't consider any breeder of a purebred dog unless they were members of the breed society, and even then, I'd put them through the wringer with questions and enquiries.
There are two parties in a transaction, the buyer is just as culpable as the seller by fuelling the industry.

Lemlin

"DBB wrote:

People can diss the IKC all they want here, but the IKC don't pretend to be a quality control system, and they should not be criticised for not doing something they're not designed to do. There is no quality control system, save perhaps for some breed societies which compel their members to far stricter T&Cs than the IKC mothership, the Bernese MD Club is just such an example.

For me you entered the debate with the above comments.

From the IKC website:

The Irish Kennel Club promotes the responsible ownership and breeding of dogs throughout Ireland through education, registration, training and support schemes and events.

The Irish Kennel Club holds a register of purebred dogs in Ireland, issuing export licenses, pedigree certificates and transfer of ownership certification where required. We are the key authority on pedigree dogs for both breeders and buyers.

For me, those are misleading comments for a lay person re the IKC not pretending to be a quality control system.

I'll leave it there if you wish to go no further.

madred006

The IKC should be more proactive in issuing papers and monitoring breeds IMO . Yes she visited the house where puppy was and seen the litter ( big impressive house ) and I believe this is just my opinion that the bernese organisation in Ireland is a closed shop . I have copies of 3 emails sent to them no replies and several voicemails and no replies . The problem with large breeds is there beauty to many and when they purchase them many are not able to give them the love and care they deserve I'm lucky in that ours have 24 /7 companionship and they receive the care they so richly deserve , it's just a pity to see such breeds indeed any breed exploited .

DBB

Lemlin wrote: »

For me you entered the debate with the above comments. From the IKC website:

I entered into a discussion with madred, not you.
And yes, I'd rather where I'm concerned, you'd leave it there. Thanks.

DBB

madred006 wrote: »

Yes she visited the house where puppy was and seen the litter ( big impressive house )

Was this when she went to pick up the pup? Sorry madred, I'm not trying to get on your case here, but yours is a really good example to other readers of this thread, in years to come, about why people are advised to go to serious lengths when sourcing a good pup! It's always a great idea to go visit your pup with its siblings at least once before you make the journey to actually collect it.

and I believe this is just my opinion that the bernese organisation in Ireland is a closed shop . I have copies of 3 emails sent to them no replies and several voicemails and no replies .

That's very disappointing: I'm not at all involved in breeding of any breed, but I have had interactions with the BMD club in my time, and they really impressed me! I know a few people who've bought pups through them too, all great, healthy pups from long-lived lines. Hopefully you just got them at a bad time?!

madred006

Just to be clear I have no axe to grind with the IKC , but just wish they could be a little stricter when it comes to registration , for my part I shall ring them in morn and notify them of the problems I have encountered and the lines of dogs involved . Cheers for all input .

Lemlin

madred006 wrote: »

Just to be clear I have no axe to grind with the IKC , but just wish they could be a little stricter when it comes to registration , for my part I shall ring them in morn and notify them of the problems I have encountered and the lines of dogs involved . Cheers for all input .

Could you let us know what sort of response you get from them thanks.

madred006

DBB wrote: »

Was this when she went to pick up the pup? Sorry madred, I'm not trying to get on your case here, but yours is a really good example to other readers of this thread, in years to come, about why people are advised to go to serious lengths when sourcing a good pup! It's always a great idea to go visit your pup with its siblings at least once before you make the journey to actually collect it.



That's very disappointing: I'm not at all involved in breeding of any breed, but I have had interactions with the BMD club in my time, and they really impressed me! I know a few people who've bought pups through them too, all great, healthy pups from long-lived lines. Hopefully you just got them at a bad time?!

No probs at all she visited twice first to pay deposit and then to collect puppy . I have spoken to few bernese owners and they feel same way about organisation , but yes I could have met them at a busy time and that's allowed . The onus is on those of us who care about breed specifics to help these organisations as best we can and prevent incidents like this , thus preserving the breeds .

madred006

Lemlin wrote: »

Could you let us know what sort of response you get from them thanks.

I will indeed .

madred006

madred006 wrote: »

I will indeed .

Well rang the IKC this morning .The kind lady on the phone while somewhat sympathetic towards my predicament informed me that it was out of there remit , that they just keep the details and breeding lines . I do have a little problem with their stance because not once did she ask for details of the breeds , however if I choose to get my vet to report same to them they will inform breeder .

mosi

I guess what is really needed is an assured breeders scheme like the Kennel Club in the UK has. I don't know why the IKC hasn't done such a thing...possibly an internal politics issue? If something like that could be set up, it may make it easier for people to be directed to responsibly bred dogs, rather than simply reading IKC registration as some sort of seal of quality in itself.

Knine

mosi wrote: »

I guess what is really needed is an assured breeders scheme like the Kennel Club in the UK has. I don't know why the IKC hasn't done such a thing...possibly an internal politics issue? If something like that could be set up, it may make it easier for people to be directed to responsibly bred dogs, rather than simply reading IKC registration as some sort of seal of quality in itself.

9

That scheme is not working very well in the UK at the moment & reputable breeders are leaving it.

mosi

Knine wrote: »

9

That scheme is not working very well in the UK at the moment & reputable breeders are leaving it.

Shame about that...in principle it sounds like a step in the right direction.

Knine

mosi wrote: »

Shame about that...in principle it sounds like a step in the right direction.

Yes a real shame. I can't link because I'm using my phone. There is a Facebook Group called 'Exhibitors Choice & Voice' There are lots of complaints on it about the scheme if anyone wants to look into it further.