Avalanche today in Lech Fatal

Fattes

Be careful out there, sad news from Austria (Lech) today. Early season conditions mean there is a pretty sever layer of depth hors, unusual for europe but it is there and will be there for the season.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/10524718/British-teenager-killed-by-avalanche-in-Austria.html

CardinalJ

Sad.

Intersting, the place I've seen the most people being removed by Air Ambo is St Anton and Lech.

I know that has little to do with this case, but I always thing there's way more there.

a148pro

Really shocking - they had airbags, avalanche risk was one and they were with a guide. I'm due out in about 3 weeks, hochfugen, which has a reputation as a freeride place. Might just stick to the piste.

Fattes

a148pro wrote: »

Really shocking - they had airbags, avalanche risk was one and they were with a guide.

More details emerging they were on a closed / forbidden zone, pics etc. absolutely tragic the victim was a twin and his brother was there!!

http://www.planetski.eu/news/5602

It does highlight important issues even at L1 there is a risk of slides IF YOU THINK YOU WILL NEED AN ABS BAG, you have all ready made a bad decision

Based on the terrain I am guessing the injuries were impact that caused the fatalities rather than suffocation

fannymagee

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam. Thoughts go out to the guide too- such an awful tragedy.

Fattes

fannymagee wrote: »

Thoughts go out to the guide too- such an awful tragedy.

No manslaughter, the guide led his group to an area the resort expressly forbids people to ski. No sympathy for the guide and he will have plenty of time to reflect on it on a prison

stevire

Awful news, it shows that avalanche risk can't cater for every potential route. Looks like they took a very advanced line down, no run-off, surprised that all of them got caught in the slide would've expected them to go down one by one.

Fattes

stevire wrote: »

would've expected them to go down one by one.

Probably with the risk level at 1 they felt there was no need. With current conditions I don't think many would ski a line 1 by 1 as there has been very little new snow.

The problem is what you can't see, there is a layer of sugary snow from early in the season, across the alps causes by heavy early season snow and a quick drop in temps. It will be there all season and lead to bigger and deeper avalanches due to a much more unstable snowpack

fannymagee

Fattes wrote: »

No manslaughter, the guide led his group to an area the resort expressly forbids people to ski. No sympathy for the guide and he will have plenty of time to reflect on it on a prison

It's every guide's worst nightmare, and the investigation is just beginning so I don't think it's fair to convict him on the internet.

Scary to think of what's potentially to come over the season though, avalanche wise...

Fattes

Taking his clients to a permanently closed area is at best stupid, at worst fatal. There is a reason these areas are permanently closed! This is not an accident it's guide neglect. The guide has worked in Lech for 20 years he can hardly claim he was unaware it was forbidden to ski there

He is all ready under police custody in hospital.

3 different German sites are reporting the above, Nick at planet ski is a little more conservative, and had reported it but changed the story since I posted the link

fannymagee

Of course he is in police custody- the Austrians have incredibly tight laws on guiding- every guide knows that. So yes, it was an unusual choice of terrain, and the lack of off-piste opportunities doesn't quite explain it. There will be a lot if online speculation and commentary, but I don't believe in trial by Internet.

Fattes

He was in a PERMANENTLY CLOSED AND FORBIDDEN AREA. That is the sole important fact in this case and it has been confirmed by the local authorities and police.

This automatically shows as a guide he broke the law made a choice that he should not have made and again he is a guide so he should know better.

This bit is speculation - from the pics posted the slide was through a chiute that cuts across a piste. I am speculating the reason the area is closed is because it is a 40 degree pitch leading to an avalanche trap that ends on a piste so not only did he put his clients at risk he put anybody who could have been on the piste at risk too.

fannymagee

No need for capslock, I'm not saying for one second that he was right- it was a very strange decision for an experienced guide, but its one he'll have to live with for the rest of his days, and that's where he has my sympathy. And as for the family, my heart breaks for them. Horrific stuff.

Fattes

fannymagee wrote: »

it was a very strange decision for an experienced guide,

No it was reckless and negligent, this is not a decision he made that could be said he made a call based on circumstances. He lead his clients INTO A PERMANENTLY CLOSED AND FORBIDDEN AREA. That is negligence of the highest order it is putting his clients and other mountain users at risk against the rules and restrictions of the ski area & ignoring the core principal of guiding the safety of your clients and others.

You may as well try and excuse a drunk driver that kills someone and walks away with minor injuries, as this is a similar scenario. The guide broke the law for whatever reason and will now have to deal with it.

The only family that deserves sympathy here is those that have lost their loved ones.

fannymagee

For an experienced guide to make such a reckless and negligent decision, is very strange. They don't usually make such decisions, that's why incidences like this are (thankfully) uncommon.

Fattes

It's the 4th multiple burial fatal avalanche this season & it's not even Christmas !! They are very common, we only tend to see the ones involving British/ Irish fatalities in out news though

fannymagee

Fattes wrote: »

It's the 4th multiple burial fatal avalanche this season & it's not even Christmas !! They are very common, we only tend to see the ones involving British/ Irish fatalities in out news though

How many of these included experienced and licenced guides operating in unauthorised areas?

Fattes

fannymagee wrote: »

How many of these included experienced and licenced guides operating in unauthorised areas?

3 incidents had qualified guides present and occurred in back country terrain, the 4th was in bounds in a resort with a boarder on their own.

Also there is all ready double digit numbers 20 + for single victim burials this season thankfully only 2 fatalities

Stats cover Austria, France Switzerland & Italy Sep - today from SLF - Swiss avalanche institute

In some cases it's bad decisions or weather changes or just bad luck. What the guide did in this case was the equivalent of getting behind the wheel of a car after 10 pints and texting the whole way home

fannymagee

That's my point, the unusual actions of the guide are what makes this case particularly newsworthy outside of Britain. Nobody can ever be 100% accurate with avalanche predictions, and with the current conditions throughout the Alps (on open and fully authorised areas) we can only hope those figures don't continue to rise at this rate. It's scary stuff.

Fattes

12 French army officers were killed in Haute Savoie 3 years ago in an avalanche because of a guide error, absolutely no coverage of it in the press the British victim is the only reason you are seeing it.

You tried to defend the guides actions as a mistake when they were far more serious than that, in fact you analysis if the incident shows a clear lack of understanding of just how dangerous and careless his actions were.

You stated incidents like this were unusual, maybe on the shallow slopes of Soll but they are a lot more common than people think, the last times the alps had a Depth hores later in the snow pack most resorts had a 2-3 slides a week and a the death numbers were above 100. Most deaths regardless of cause in resorts go unreported as it's not good for business

fannymagee

I never once defended the actions of the guide! I said I felt sympathy for him, which I still do. Sympathy aside, I repeatedly said I found it difficult to understand his actions, especially given his qualification and experience.

Yes I am thankful that Soll has a lower incidence of avalanches than other areas, but they still occur and no-one should ever let their guard down. I certainly never would, but that still won't guarantee my safety. Nothing will.

highpath

Ye two sound like ye're married to each other!!

fannymagee

LOL Highland!! Ah I've said my piece now

Fattes

highpath wrote: »

Ye two sound like ye're married to each other!!

I never argue with the wife as she only gives educated supported opinion or defied medical science by being diagnosed with altitude sickness in Las Vegas

fannymagee

Lol!!! Well here is my "educated supported opinion" (whatever that is) so, if it's so important.

1) I expressed sympathy, which is not an opinion. Nor is it a hangable offence.

2) Where did this accusation of 'defying medical science' come from?! Since the mention of my medical diagnosis in Vegas seems to have bothered you so much, allow me to address your (rather odd) concern with it. There is in fact a large body of clinical research supporting the existence of neurological, pulmonary, metabolic and other physiological changes at moderate altitude, which fall outside the usual clinical definition of altitude sickness. Moderate altitude is clinically defined in this context as circa 2,000 to 2,500m.

Fattes

Less well known are other conditions,

OTHER CONDITIONS NOT AMS!!! Thanks for confirming my point for me!

By the way the definitive and medically accepted definitions of the various forms of AMS were all agreed at the 1991 International Hypoxia Symposium in Lake Louise canada and are still the medically accepted definitions and terms for diagnosis!

fannymagee

Fattes wrote: »

OTHER CONDITIONS NOT AMS!!! Thanks for confirming my point for me!

By the way the definitive and medically accepted definitions of the various forms of AMS were all agreed at the 1991 International Hypoxia Symposium in Lake Louise canada and are still the medically accepted definitions and terms for diagnosis!

Oh give me strength. You were the one who started going on about AMS, not me- I said the diagnosis was not AMS. And why do you care anyway?! It's a bit odd.

And as for the accepted medical definitions and terms for diagnosis, I think you'll find most clinicians are very interested in and aware any recent clinical papers in the area- esp if the last update was 1991. That's why research is so important, and that's why I included those abstracts :-)

a148pro

Lads this is ridiculous and has to stop, it's dragging the forum down.

mahoney_j

Agreed but I'd lay the bigger blame with fattes,going back to thread title,human life has been lost ,yes the guide was wrong to take those people where he did but I'm certain it wasn't deliberate .the poor guy will have to live with what he did for the rest of his says.

fannymagee

A fair point, sorry for my part in it! Over and out :-)

cormee

Yesterday, 21:42 #25
fannymagee

Did you make that big long post while on holidays, in a ski resort, when you could have been out on the slope avoiding donkeys?

For shame!

fannymagee

cormee wrote: »

Yesterday, 21:42 #25
fannymagee

Did you make that big long post while on holidays, in a ski resort, when you could have been out on the slope avoiding donkeys?

For shame!

Haha Cormee no I'm home for Christmas- that's what's wrong with me lol!! And I'd say the Donkey is halfway to Bethlehem by now ;-)

Fattes

Another death in Alpe Deuz today, risk level 3

"lay the bigger blame with fattes"

Well we can allow the forum to be full of incorrect information or it can be a forum were people qualified to guide in Off Piste terrain by the ISIA like myself can post factual and accurate information.

The guide deliberately skied in a permanently closed area in the search for fresh snow in poor conditions, there is no excuse for that kind if risk taking ever. Remember the slide the triggered crossed a PISTE so it could have been much worse

Kaisr Sose

Fattes,

Hopefully this is not going to be a record year. Peoples perception of risk is being seriously influenced/eroded by airbags etc.

The Lech incident is very sad story for all concerned, but especially the family that lost a son. Time will tell what what led them to be in an area they should not have been in. While not wainting to question your qualifications or knowledge, there are two things that come to mind;

-ypu were not there
-you are not qualified to comment on the guilt or otherwiese of anyone involved.

However, trial and conviction by internet is not the point of boards.ie. Whether that person is in this country or the Volarberg Alps, the point remains, innocent until proven otherwise.

Fattes

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

-ypu were not there



-you are not qualified to comment on the guilt or otherwiese of anyone involved.

As with 4 years ago when Europe had a layer of depth hores it will be a significant year for slides. Basically most areas in the alps have a soft sugary layer due to heavy early season snow and a sharp drop in temps. It will be there all season sadly.

Correct but the fact that they were skiing in a permanently closed area of the resort ha seen confirmed by police and local lift company

Correct but I am qualified to comment in the fact that there is absolutely no set of circumstances that could justify the group being there, not sure if you know the area but all of the face were this occurred is closed to skiers/ boarders. So the question I have posed is valid What were they Doing there??

I deal in facts and educated opinion nothing I have posted here in relation to the case in question has not been confirmed by the police, I have stated that under no circumstances could the guide justify where he was with his clients, his guilt is for the courts to decide.

It's interesting I have seen this discussion on a few message boards and this one is the only one where anyone had attempted to defend or justify the guides actions!!

mahoney_j

Fattes wrote: »

As with 4 years ago when Europe had a layer of depth hores it will be a significant year for slides. Basically most areas in the alps have a soft sugary layer due to heavy early season snow and a sharp drop in temps. It will be there all season sadly.

Correct but the fact that they were skiing in a permanently closed area of the resort ha seen confirmed by police and local lift company

Correct but I am qualified to comment in the fact that there is absolutely no set of circumstances that could justify the group being there, not sure if you know the area but all of the face were this occurred is closed to skiers/ boarders. So the question I have posed is valid What were they Doing there??

I deal in facts and educated opinion nothing I have posted here in relation to the case in question has not been confirmed by the police, I have stated that under no circumstances could the guide justify where he was with his clients, his guilt is for the courts to decide.

It's interesting I have seen this discussion on a few message boards and this one is the only one where anyone had attempted to defend or justify the guides actions!!

No one is trying to justify his actions or defend but what we are implying is that it was a tragic loss of life for the family involved and that the actions of the guide taking them to that area and subsequent actions is something he will have to live with for the rest of his days.what they were doing there is yet to come out and there may of been a good reason for it.from checking in on this part of boards now and again you seem to have an issue with fanny Magee in particular and seem to have issue with most of her posts.dont know you or her but I and the mods and other users here have all had to ask ye to politely cop on a few times.hold up the white flag and call a spade a spade for the good of the rest of us here.rant over

Kaisr Sose

Please note that I am not trying to defend the guide/instructor. I just dont think its right that people that are not charged with investigating this are making public comments before the investigation concludes.

You did state it was manslaughter and he could think about his actions from prison-which is determining offence and guilt before offence establised and guilt is proven. Let the investigation take place and then the findings will be published. That is what inquiries/investigatins are about.

I am pretty familiar with the Arlberg area-both on and off piste. Who is to know what brought them down this slope-me thinks the avalanche warning level of 1, combined with the the depths-time will tell the reason. People do things they should not do-thats life. I was in Arlberg when the Dutch Prince was caught in an avalanche (2012) - again they should not have been where they were, the risk was 3 or maybe 4, but they were. He was with a local, who should have known, but they went anyway.

I have seen people ski in this area (Madloch) before. That the area is marked closed does not bother them. I often wondered what would happen if the ski patrols seen them-take their passes hopefully.

I was at an avalanche safety talk in Tignes two weeks ago, and they stressed that the snowpack was already in such a state that it would be unstable as the depth builds. Last year they had 3 people (UCPA) killed in the first week of Dec so its somethjing they are quite worried about there already.

Fattes

"hey were doing there is yet to come out and there may of been a good reason for it."

Again the entire Face is a permanently closed are not just one section the entire BOWL is closed all the time to skiers. I know the area reasonably well. Below the face is a piste and the risk is any slide in the area will cut across the piste and bury anyone on it or carry them off the other side


Now to expand on that even of 1 of the group ventured in there is no logical or sensible reason for the whole group to be there other than under the guide decision.

I correct or call out individual's web their statements are factually inaccurate like calling the ski are at Interlaken small 300Km and then some ?? Making it bigger than any linked area in say Austria Or saying events like the above are Rare they are not, and this season due to conditions they will be increasingly common

Fattes

Sadly another fatal one today 2 burials, in la Vanoise and one fatality same incident L1 risk day it's really scary out there now guys, be careful

Russman

Do avalanches generally effect off piste areas, or is there a (however unlikely) chance that a prepared piste could give way ?

Fattes

Russman wrote: »

Do avalanches generally effect off piste areas, or is there a (however unlikely) chance that a prepared piste could give way ?

Excellent question, It would be incredibly unusual and near impossible due to the way piste are packed by the grooming machines.

The big risk like in the case of the Lech one here is the slide carries across a piste. IF there were skiers there it could be a big issue.

Although the largest % of pistes in most resorts are the perfect pitch for avalanches

The main reason I started the thread was to highlight the risks that exist this season due to the unstable nature of the snow pack & thee risk that creates to people who just nip off the side of the piste!!

prunudo

I can't seem to find the link but I'm nearly sure I read on snowheads about part of a red piste sliding in a French resort within the last 2 years. I can't remember the finer details though.

As Fattes said it's more likely off piste skiers/boarders could set of a slide which could spread onto an open piste.

Fattes

It has happened before Jvan, normally triggered above and carries on to a piste, a red piste is pretty much perfect avalanche terrain & once an avalanche is on a piste there is nothing to slow or impeded it so it becomes a nightmare scenario.

I have a video if an avalanche taking out a ski lift somewhere if I can find it

prunudo

Is that the clip from Russia, where the pisteurs set it off, amazing video if it's the same one I'm thinking of.

http://youtu.be/u9vOVYdQofg

And one from France

http://youtu.be/F4xmerGwXmE

Makes you realise how close the danger actually is.

a148pro

Russman wrote: »

Do avalanches generally effect off piste areas, or is there a (however unlikely) chance that a prepared piste could give way ?

Almost always off piste - I think there was an avalanche in ischgl last year on piste but the piste was closed. When you're waking up in resort to the dull thump of distant explosions it's the resort staff setting off avalanches above pistes to ensure they're safe. A lot of people put a lot of work into keeping the pistes safe so if you're thinking of skipping under that wire that says "piste closed" as I have done a few times in the past, think again. The lads know what they're at - we don't.

Fattes

Another death in Pralognon near Courcheval yesterday, it's starting to look like it could be a long season.

2 people buried 1 freed himself alerted rescue an attempted to rescue & save his partner without success

Jvan yep the 1 from France was the one I was talking about

Russman

Wow ! Awful.
Does this combination of conditions happen often or is it a cyclical thing like, say El Nino or something ?

Is it something your average, run of the mill ski holidaymaker should be concerned about would you say ? Could it ruin a season for the resorts ?Obviously safety is always a concern, but would it potentially impact on deciding on a resort or making a booking etc ?

Fattes

Russman; Its complicated, avalanche forecasting is a science a very complex and detailed science. It is weather driven but there is no pattern or cycle to this.

Weather drives avalanche conditions, primarily through a combination of Snowfall, Wind and Temperature, coupled with slope aspect and pitch.

But the current conditions are based on a base layer, the first snow of the season that has settled on the warm ground and after it falls there is a sudden drop in Temp and it is there for the season this layer has the consistency of Sugar and collapses easily. It is impossible to predict if and when it will slide. It is traditionally more common in N.America and up until recently it was rare in Europe but with changing weather patterns it is becoming more common.

Currently Nearly all of the French Alps, The Italian Alps, Swiss Alps and the Tirol and Alberg areas of Austria are stuck with it. Lower alpine areas like the Ski welt are not as bad or as susceptible to this issue but they are not immune to it either.

For your average holiday maker if you stay on piste there is no issue but once you are off piste you are exposed to the risk, be it 3 inches from the piste or touring in the back of beyond Avalanches don't discriminate or care, if the conditions are right it will happen and this year the chances of it happening are greatly increased. It will probably make piste and lifts busier as people don't want to risk it.

prunudo

Fattes wrote: »

For your average holiday maker if you stay on piste there is no issue but once you are off piste you are exposed to the risk, be it 3 inches from the piste or touring in the back of beyond Avalanches don't discriminate or care, if the conditions are right it will happen and this year the chances of it happening are greatly increased. It will probably make piste and lifts busier as people don't want to risk it.

It's a pity more people dont realise this, I think they understand the seriousness of an avalanche but presume it only happens in some far out back country valley or mountain. I don't want to sound negetive, but people should definitely be more aware of what is going on around them, as the saying goes 'respect the mountain'.

Fattes

jvan Nail on head, sadly there is an awful lot of disinformation or inaccurate stuff posted on this and other topics on here that leads people astray. In fact it is one of the worst forums for inaccurate information in relation to skiing.

If you are venturing off piste in any shape or form you should probably take the time to educate yourself a little it may save your life someday!

Fattes

And the US This week in Alta alone!

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865592927/3-people-partially-buried-in-Alta-avalanche.html