NCT Testing BMW's Incorrectly

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 1:53pm #1

Just want people to know to be careful with NCT test centers testing BMW emissions incorrectly.

I just had my 2008 BMW 118i tested in Naas and it failed on emissions.

It read.

High Idle (2,815rpm) Lambda: 0.96 (not between 0.97 and 1.03) fail
CO 1.39 vol % (above 0.20%) fail

I did a bit of research. So for starters, it was tested at a too high rpm, should have been tested at 2500 - 2700rpm.

Limits set by the Emissions 17th edition paper (which the Irish government follow also) states my vehicle should have passed with flying colours - even at 2800rpm.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194133/Emissions_17th_Edition.pdf

Paper says:

High Idle (2700rpm max) Lambda: 0.7 min to 4 max. PASS
CO max 2.0 vol % PASS

I am going back in and I am going to ask for my Expenses to and from center and phone calls to BMW and loss of earnings returning back to show them a sheet of paper telling them how to do there fecking job.

Pull yer ****ing finger out lads.

Tzardine · 18-12-2013 1:55pm

Prepare for a massive amount of shoulder shrugging I suspect.

Good luck. Keep us updated.

MarkR · 18-12-2013 1:55pm

I think they best they will offer is a free retest. I don't think consequential losses are really covered. I wonder how they decide what rpm to run it on? Does their software offer it based on the reg?

hi_im_fil · 18-12-2013 2:00pm

You do realise the document you linked is an English document? And has no standing as far as NCT is concerned?

Your Lambda is a fail straight off anyway, it doesn't matter what rpm it is tested at.

Check the relevant Irish NCT document which states how to test the car. I'm pretty sure it doesn't have an exact rpm range to test the emissions at.

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:00pm

MarkR wrote: »

I think they best they will offer is a free retest. I don't think consequential losses are really covered. I wonder how they decide what rpm to run it on? Does their software offer it based on the reg?

Well this is one of the points BMW have brought up. They should not be entering Reg Numbers into the system. It should Chassis number and engine code. If they are entering reg only then the system can just choose a generic setting.

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:01pm

hi_im_fil wrote: »

You do realise the document you linked is an English document? And has no standing as far as NCT is concerned?

Your Lambda is a fail straight off anyway, it doesn't matter what rpm it is tested at.

Check the relevant Irish NCT document which states how to test the car. I'm pretty sure it doesn't have an exact rpm range to test the emissions at.

You are wrong. How has it failed? It should be tested between 0.7 min to 4 max

Read the post again buddy.

hi_im_fil · 18-12-2013 2:05pm

DHFrame wrote: »

You are wrong. How has it failed? It should be tested between 0.7 min to 4 max

Read the post again buddy.

You are getting your information from an incorrect source.

Correct source: http://www.ncts.ie/NCT%20Manual%20Revise%20May%202012.pdf

See page 14:

Lambda -
"3 For vehicles first registered on or after 1st day of January
1994, the lambda value at 2,500 rpm or at the speed
specified by the vehicle manufacturer is not 1 ± .03 or
within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation"

challengemaster · 18-12-2013 2:07pm

DHFrame wrote: »

You are wrong. How has it failed? It should be tested between 0.7 min to 4 max

Read the post again buddy.

Based on what facts?

The way cars are tested is laid out in the nct manual. How about trying to fix issues with your car rather than with the test.

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:15pm

hi_im_fil wrote: »

the lambda value at 2,500 rpm or at the speed
specified by the vehicle manufacturer is not 1 ± .03 or
within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation"

or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation

FROM BMW Lambda: 0.7 min to 4 max. PASS

hi_im_fil · 18-12-2013 2:17pm

DHFrame wrote: »

or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation

FROM BMW Lambda: 0.7 min to 4 max. PASS

Where is it stated that BMW accept those limits?

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:20pm

hi_im_fil wrote: »

Where is it stated that BMW accept those limits?

I have just been told it by BMW in Rathangan over the phone. I will give you the evidence once I receive the document via email.

Jesus.

CountingCrows · 18-12-2013 2:28pm

DHFrame wrote: »

Jesus.

Our Lord has returned, and he's driving a BMW 118i :eek:

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:33pm

CountingCrows wrote: »

Our Lord has returned, and he's driving a BMW 118i :eek:

Clown.

Lambda document attached for the little angry people in the world.

hi_im_fil · 18-12-2013 2:37pm

Interesting. Let us know how you get on.

DHFrame · 18-12-2013 2:39pm

And just to let you know. @ 2815 rpm that they tested it at - that will push the CO far to high for the test.

listermint · 18-12-2013 2:44pm

It appears some apologies are in order...

CountingCrows · 18-12-2013 2:45pm

DHFrame wrote: »

Clown.

Lambda document attached for the little angry people in the world.

There's only one angry poster in this thread.

biko · 18-12-2013 3:13pm

DHFrame, cop on and mind the language

pippip · 18-12-2013 3:49pm

Wear this when you go back into them.

Will be interesting to see their response to it all.
Its a fairly automated system so I wouldn't imagine they could just hit a PASS button for the Lambda reading. I wonder if they use the correct chassis number does the limits alter to the .7 and 4 in the system.
As mentioned getting them to use the correct rpm would be job one.
I wouldn't mess around, ask for the manager/supervisor immediately before speaking to anyone.

dougie-lampkin · 18-12-2013 4:25pm

Are you sure the BMW Lambda readings are measured in the same way? A Lambda reading of 0.7 would give an A/F of 10:1, I'd be surprised an engine could run on that. Likewise, a Lambda of 4 would give an A/F ratio of 60:1, which would easily melt a hole in a piston. Could the BMW values possibly be voltage readings off the O2 sensor or something? They look like the min/max values the sensor can read, rather than the acceptable limits. 60:1 (λ = 4) is off the scale lean, there's no way to consider that acceptable.

Every production petrol car tries to get a Lambda reading of 1, which is an A/F ratio of 14.7:1, the optimal fuel to air ratio for a full burn of petrol. BMW haven't changed the physical properties of petrol, so a Lambda of 1 is still what should be measured. They did throttle it too high, but that's not affecting the Lambda reading. 100 RPM less will also not bring the CO down far enough to pass. Your car is running rich, get that seen to and stop blaming the NCT. Demanding your "expenses" and loss of earnings back is laughable, that's energy better expended by, y'know, fixing the car and getting it retested.

pippip · 18-12-2013 4:30pm

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

Are you sure the BMW Lambda readings are measured in the same way? A Lambda reading of 0.7 would give an A/F of 10:1, I'd be surprised an engine could run on that. Likewise, a Lambda of 4 would give an A/F ratio of 60:1, which would easily melt a hole in a piston. Could the BMW values possibly be voltage readings off the O2 sensor or something? They look like the min/max values the sensor can read, rather than the acceptable limits. 60:1 (λ = 4) is off the scale lean, there's no way to consider that acceptable.

Every production petrol car tries to get a Lambda reading of 1, which is an A/F ratio of 14.7:1, the optimal fuel to air ratio for a full burn of petrol. BMW haven't changed the physical properties of petrol, so a Lambda of 1 is still what should be measured. They did throttle it too high, but that's not affecting the Lambda reading. 100 RPM less will also not bring the CO down far enough to pass. Your car is running rich, get that seen to and stop blaming the NCT. Demanding your "expenses" and loss of earnings back is laughable, that's energy better expended by, y'know, fixing the car and getting it retested.

But according to his figures from BMW his current Co2 figure is still a pass.

Kenny Logins · 18-12-2013 4:30pm

0.7 - 4 !?

Is it not 0.7 - 1.04 or something?

dougie-lampkin · 18-12-2013 4:32pm

pippip wrote: »

But according to his figures from BMW his current Co2 figure is still a pass.

I don't know what you're looking at, but both the NCT manual and the BMW figures say above 0.2% is a fail.

pippip · 18-12-2013 4:34pm

Kenny Logins wrote: »

0.7 - 4 !?

Is it not 0.7 - 1.04 or something?

If you open the Uk doc the op references it gives the exact figures for each model. The other two 118i engines are .7-1.03 but the specific engine the op has is listed as .7 - 4.

Kenny Logins · 18-12-2013 4:36pm

pippip wrote: »

If you open the Uk doc the op references it gives the exact figures for each model. The other two 118i engines are .7-1.03 but the specific engine the op has is listed as .7 - 4.

Yeah, just reading now about titania oxygen sensors.

http://www.bmwownersclub.com/forums/topic/4369-lambda-sensors/

pippip · 18-12-2013 4:37pm

dougie-lampkin wrote: »

I don't know what you're looking at, but both the NCT manual and the BMW figures say above 0.2% is a fail.

Ah yes, I hadn't checked the co2 figures in his UK Doc

kona · 18-12-2013 6:57pm

DHFrame wrote: »

or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation
or within the vehicle manufacturer’s recommendation

FROM BMW Lambda: 0.7 min to 4 max. PASS

if you had 4 lambda i doubt your car would be running. I wouldnt be so quick to run in there telling them how to do their jobs unless I was 110% right, in otherwords Id have it tested on another machine at the right RPM.

Those figures show your car is running a bit rich, what temperature was the oil when it was tested?

ninty9er · 18-12-2013 8:30pm

What are the odds the OP drove to the NCT centre without giving the car a good warm up.

Cosmo K · 18-12-2013 9:37pm

The OP is right, there is an exemption for newish BMW petrols,. You have to check the cars chassis number, to be sure the car falls within that bracket. The problem is, they are so few, newish petrol BMW's out there, its easy to forget that there is an exemption for them, its all diesels nowadays....

burke027 · 18-12-2013 9:44pm

The problem with your engine is a blocked breather valve my friend.fix it and u will pass

slimjimmc · 18-12-2013 9:53pm

DHFrame wrote: »

Well this is one of the points BMW have brought up. They should not be entering Reg Numbers into the system. It should Chassis number and engine code. If they are entering reg only then the system can just choose a generic setting.

I doubt that. I believe the NCT's vehicle database is taken from the Dept of Transport's National Vehicle and Driver File which has the details of every vehicle registered in Ireland. There is no need to enter VIN/Engine numbers since all that information can be retrieved using the reg number alone.

However that doesn't mean that NCT's system has been given the correct manufacturer limits specific to your vehicle or that mistakes haven't been made somewhere.
Perhaps verify the physical stamps on the car, your reg documents and the NCT report all have the same VIN/engine number.

NCT Testing BMW's Incorrectly

Comments