Apartment gate control fob woes

ted1

MYOB wrote: »

You're making an assumption that there *are* records and audits. Neither are common from my experience. Far more common is charging a fee (€45 is cheap, as they go) for someone to program a very cheap device and forget about it.

45 is cheap if your looking for a one off replacement. However this is a forced change, and as such the volume of fobs is much higher and bulk comes into it. You could probably program one a minute. So at a euro a fob that's 60 euro. Then abouts few euro for a fob and your no where near 45

Paulw

ted1 wrote: »

45 is cheap if your looking for a one off replacement. However this is a forced change, and as such the volume of fobs is much higher and bulk comes into it. You could probably program one a minute. So at a euro a fob that's 60 euro. Then abouts few euro for a fob and your no where near 45

But a management company is not making a profit, in fact the management company never makes a profit. The price to the home owner is the price it costs to do the work - fob, programming, distribution, etc.

So, more than likely, the cost being quoted is what the management company is quoted from the company who is supplying the gate and security system.

They are not just buying fobs. They are buying a whole system.

As a sitting director of a management company, I can see both sides of the discussion, but in my personal view, I think it is right to charge directly for each fob, rather than dipping in to the sinking fund.

Victor

Guys, constructive comments only please.

Moderator

ted1

Paulw wrote: »

But a management company is not making a profit, in fact the management company never makes a profit. The price to the home owner is the price it costs to do the work - fob, programming, distribution, etc.

So, more than likely, the cost being quoted is what the management company is quoted from the company who is supplying the gate and security system.

They are not just buying fobs. They are buying a whole system.

As a sitting director of a management company, I can see both sides of the discussion, but in my personal view, I think it is right to charge directly for each fob, rather than dipping in to the sinking fund.

Management companies who manage apartments like Wyse etc do make a profit.
if its volunteers running the MC then they shouldn't have volunteered if there not capable of getting proper prices.

The price to the home owner is the price it costs to do the work - fob, programming, distribution, etc.

fob, a couple of euro
programming, as i said you could easily do 60 in an hour.
distribution, explain these costs? Fobs get delivered in bulk to central point. Person then goes around in the evening to deliver fobs to those that ordered one.

as regards paying for the whole system, that's what the sinking fund is for. what if only 1 person order a fob?

could the old system not have been repaired?


here's a universal remote for €6 http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Cloning-Universal-Gate-Garage-Remote-Control-Fob-433mhz-/230606653557
if they can supply them for €6 each, then surly when bulk buying it can be got cheaper

Paulw

ted1 wrote: »

Management companies who manage apartments like Wyse etc do make a profit.

Wyse are not a management company, they are a management agent. They are usually paid a fixed fee per annum by the management company for their duties. So, an issue like new fobs is not worth anything extra to them.

P. Breathnach

ted1 wrote: »

Management companies who manage apartments like Wyse etc do make a profit.

That touches on a perception problem. A multi-user development has a management company, often referred to as an owners' management company or OMC. It is common for OMCs to contract most or all of the day-to-day operations to a firm that specialises in such work (Wyse being one example). These firms act as agents for the OMC, and charge a fee which includes a profit component.

OMCs do not make a profit. They can not make a profit. If they take in more than it costs to run the complex for the year, they generate a surplus. It's no more a profit than you would make a personal profit by transferring cash from one pocket to another.

Managing agents do indeed strive to make a profit.

if its volunteers running the MC then they shouldn't have volunteered if there not capable of getting proper prices.

I'd like to agree with that, but there are reservations to consider. There is no guarantee that there are among the unit holders in a development people with the understanding and skill-set to operate as directors of an OMC. There is no way of ensuring that the members of an OMC will select suitable people as directors (given that many of them don't understand the nature of OMCs).

Many OMC directors rely heavily on managing agents for advice. That's not necessarily a bad thing, so long as the managing agent is acting with the best interests of of the OMC at heart. But there is a potential conflict of interest for the managing agent between looking after the best interests of the OMC and making a profit for itself. So the directors should engage actively with the managing agent, and not abdicate their decsion-making role.

ted1

Paulw wrote: »

Wyse are not a management company, they are a management agent. They are usually paid a fixed fee per annum by the management company for their duties. So, an issue like new fobs is not worth anything extra to them.

Good to see you read part of my post, now how about the other parts. where I pointed out to you that €45 is paying over the odds and even went to the bother of shown you fobs available for €6

Paulw

ted1 wrote: »

Good to see you read part of my post, now how about the other parts. where I pointed out to you that €45 is paying over the odds and even went to the bother of shown you fobs available for €6

As a company, we don't buy from ebay. We buy from a company who can provide the gates, the security system and the fobs, that can provide a full invoice and backup service.

The directors of the management company involved make the call, after advice from their management agent. It's not always about the cheapest price, but a matter of getting a quality service at a decent price.

Yes, I'm sure you can buy fobs from ebay, get some tech person to programme them, and then get them delivered. That is not exactly something I, as a director, would sign off on. But, to each their own.

The directors make the call, and they answer to the members of the management company, each year, at the AGM, where accounts are proposed and agreed by the members.

dissed doc

ted1 wrote: »

here's a universal remote for €6 http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Cloning-Universal-Gate-Garage-Remote-Control-Fob-433mhz-/230606653557
if they can supply them for €6 each, then surly when bulk buying it can be got cheaper

In fairness it doesn't work like that. My jeans probably cost €2.50 to make based on the material. All you need is a sewing machine, etc., . and there you have it. Why does it cost €70?

Valentine1

No doubt those people suggesting the OCM buy fobs from Ebay and programme them themselves for E6 each will be the first people demanding to know why a proper supplier wasn't used when the eBay fobs don't work or allow a security breach.

ted1

Valentine1 wrote: »

No doubt those people suggesting the OCM buy fobs from Ebay and programme them themselves for E6 each will be the first people demanding to know why a proper supplier wasn't used when the eBay fobs don't work or allow a security breach.

That ebay supplier probably has a shop and is a reputable supplier, none the less it was just used as an example.

( the eBay seller has over 16,000 sales with 99.7% positive feed back, probably sold more fobs than any company in Ireland )

ondafly

Just to bring an ending to the sceal.

I arrived early to the meeting with the gate company, and got to speak 1:1 without a load of other people interrupting. As always you find out more in person. It turns out that the gate had 3 separate control systems in place. Each operating their own set of remote fobs to open the gate.

One of the systems was being completely removed, and anyone with that system would indeed have to pay 45 euro for a fob. Luckily it turned out I was on the 2nd system and they were able to merge it with the newer system. Result for me, being no charge however they were unable to explain how my fob had not worked the previous week....

I went into my apartment, only to hear a lot of shouting/arguing outside 15minutes later. I guess a good few people were on the old system.

I understand and appreciate there has been opposing views to whether people should be expected to pay upfront for the fobs, or if this is the sort of thing you dip into a sinking/contingency fund. I am in the latter camp, and probably my view is skewed by the fact I've paid over €15K in service charges over the years while living here. I also have the perspective that when I pay my annual service charge, its covering me to live here for 12 months and that the BOM or Agents or whomever have calculated this covering all expectations in the budget. I would have probably been more amenable to paying 45 euro a pop, if it was the height of summer and didn't have a newborn in the house, but when its 1 week from Christmas, 3 days till payday, it was different story for me.

Anyway - have a happy chrimbo and all that folks !

jd

Paulw wrote: »

Wyse are not a management company, they are a management agent. They are usually paid a fixed fee per annum by the management company for their duties. So, an issue like new fobs is not worth anything extra to them.

Wyse managed our development at the start, and then resigned(!) as agents for the development, which is now self-managed. I'd have a fit if I heard they were coming back in as agents.

Valentine1

ted1 wrote: »

That ebay supplier probably has a shop and is a reputable supplier, none the less it was just used as an example.

( the eBay seller has over 16,000 sales with 99.7% positive feed back, probably sold more fobs than any company in Ireland )

ebay feedback is hardly the same as being an Irish Limited Liability Company, registered with the Companies Registration Office who you can sue for consequential loss should everything go wrong. with a proven track record of supplying security systems.

Who do you propose do the programming of the fobs by the way? should it be the Directors of the OCM? are they to do it for free? Are they expected to train themselves while they are at it? would you spend you time doing it for free? Do you expect the Managing Agents will do it for free?

Grolschevik

Valentine1 wrote: »

Who do you propose do the programming of the fobs by the way? should it be the Directors of the OCM? are they to do it for free? Are they expected to train themselves while they are at it? would you spend you time doing it for free? Do you expect the Managing Agents will do it for free?

Last few times we had a remote/fob reprogramming issue, they had a guy there to do it, or exchange fobs, all day.

That is, from about 6am til about 8pm. For about three days.

Because, you know, people work different hours, on different days, and sometimes go on holiday.

So it's not just a matter of sending out a mail saying, 'Yo we gotta change the fobs, init. My peeps Derek will hang somewhere near the carpark at about 11, yo? He got them from eBay, aight? So you best get here on time, else you ain't gettin' into you cribs, yeah?"

(I honestly don't know where that came from, but I think you get my point! Some fobs will have to be replaced, some reprogrammed. And not all people will be able to do that on the same day, let alone a fixed time. And the management company has to be able to stand over those reprogrammings, for many and various reasons, not least insurance).

Victor

Paulw wrote: »

they are a management agent. They are usually paid a fixed fee per annum by the management company for their duties. So, an issue like new fobs is not worth anything extra to them.

As mentioned above, and while not referring to any one management agent, not all will have the interests of the OMC at heart and they will to to make more money from providing additional services.

Others still are scam artists.

ted1

Valentine1 wrote: »

ebay feedback is hardly the same as being an Irish Limited Liability Company, registered with the Companies Registration Office who you can sue for consequential loss should everything go wrong. with a proven track record of supplying security systems.

Who do you propose do the programming of the fobs by the way? should it be the Directors of the OCM? are they to do it for free? Are they expected to train themselves while they are at it? would you spend you time doing it for free? Do you expect the Managing Agents will do it for free?

Your missing my point, I used that eBay seller who is actual a registered company in the uk as an example. Because it took 5 seconds to find them as an example. I'm sure that there is an Irish equivalent who would gladly program the fobs of you bulk ordered from them.

With regards training how to program there's a video that shows you how to do it. It takes seconds.

FYI they offer a 12 month warranty http://tecmaniaworld.com/pages/warranty-and-returns

Valentine1

ted1 wrote: »

Your missing my point, I used that eBay seller who is actual a registered company in the uk as an example. Because it took 5 seconds to find them as an example. I'm sure that there is an Irish equivalent who would gladly program the fobs of you bulk ordered from them.

With regards training how to program there's a video that shows you how to do it. It takes seconds.

FYI they offer a 12 month warranty http://tecmaniaworld.com/pages/warranty-and-returns

I think it is you who has missed the point of why someone would chose a company who are in the business of supplying security systmes rather than attempting to do it themselves.

Why do you think that Fob supplier would programme them also? and Free of charge?

ted1

Valentine1 wrote: »

I think it is you who has missed the point of why someone would chose a company who are in the business of supplying security systmes rather than attempting to do it themselves.

Why do you think that Fob supplier would programme them also? and Free of charge?

I'm showed one example of a company that will supply fobs. I'm sure that company or another company will program them or you at a cost of about a euro a piece.

cerastes

ondafly wrote: »

Glad to see my little post has inspired some debate on the issue !

I telephoned the Agent earlier this morning, only to be greeted with a response, that it was the Board of Directors decision, and to put my concerns in an email, these would be relayed to the Board for consideration. I sent off an email, but as of yet still have received no reply. So its looking like a potential mexican stand off this evening, with residents refusing to handover money for a fob but then being unable to drive to work tomorrow or in the extreme let in Emergency Services. Parking outside of the complex is a non runner, as the area is disc parking only and Dublin CoCo won't permit us to purchase an annual permit. I don't fancy running out every 3 hours tonight to top up the parking disc either.

Now I have served on the board in the past, and in my time we used the sinking fund for situations that were an unexpected cost and not budgeted for the year ; like a leak coming into someones apartment from the roof of the block for instance. Or in this case, a complete removal off a security system that has suddenly failed and needs replacement.

well half the battle is you seem to have a few residents onside, can you get someone to buy one, everyone else refuse and then clone that one? not 100% sure how the cloning works, or can the old fobs not be reprogrammed or you could all get together and sell the old fobs to help pay for new ones online which could clone a purchased fob? if there any updates the existing fob would be reprogrammed? then clone it again or maybe they will just forget and assume you are parking on the street as they are too busy counting money.
edit, oops, i dont usually skip from page 1 to the end, I see the OP has resolved their issue.

Valentine1

ted1 wrote: »

I'm showed one example of a company that will supply fobs. I'm sure that company or another company will program them or you at a cost of about a euro a piece.

That is at best, a wild guess on your part.

ted1

Valentine1 wrote: »

That is at best, a wild guess on your part.

I'm an electronic engineer with a back round in automation and rf. what I'm saying is very possible. Programming takes very little time, if a customer is buying in bulk, programming would not cost much.

You just source the fobs at the correct place.

Let's take make up brushes, these cost money in brown Thomas and yet cost a fraction of the price in an art and hobby shop. You need to look at a good supplier. Just because a company specialises in security doesn't mean they are the cheapest or best. It just means their market is smaller and their mark up bigger.