Witness my conversion to Atheism.

generic2012

I've just become an atheist. I converted on a thread in the Christian forum that I will link. You can see it comment by comment for those that are interested, It starts at around page 3 I think.

I am very excited by my realisation. I thought I would be scared and lonely but I am confident and feel part of a (real!) massive positive movement!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057095951

Cabaal

Not sure you can really convert to atheism,
Its either a case of you believe or don't believe really, there's no set rules or laws to follow....except for you don't believe in a deity

Turtwig

Sorry this isn't the Atheism+ forum.

generic2012

Just used the term 'conversion' in the title because I couldn't think of a concise term, I used 'realisation' in the text to (try) and counter this. Going down the same route as Sam Harris and the whole 'the word atheist shouldn't even exist' thing I suppose!

robindch

generic2012 wrote: »

[...] feel part of a (real!) massive positive movement!

Welcome to the non-club.

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

Welcome to the non-club.

I will post him his secret decoder ring.

MrP

Sarky

Red carded for your conversion to boot. Shame we don't really do martyrs, you'd have been a shoe-in.

Enjoy your new-found godless life. It's much more interesting this way.

Brian Shanahan

We'll have to break out the emergency baptismal kit. Chimay Blond all right for you, OP? It's the best we can do on short notice to duck your head in.

Sarky

Bit of a waste of Chimay, don't you think? Luckily, I have a hip flask filled with Green Spot within reach. <celebrates>

generic2012

More of a Wally's hut man if I'm honest but It should suffice!!

Chazz Michael Michaels

generic2012 wrote: »

I've just become an atheist. I converted on a thread in the Christian forum that I will link. You can see it comment by comment for those that are interested, It starts at around page 3 I think.

I am very excited by my realisation. I thought I would be scared and lonely but I am confident and feel part of a (real!) massive positive movement!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057095951

Good for you. Just one more step to agnosticism and a view based on reason.

Obliq

Dude, that was funny. Approach; tone; taking antiskeptic to pieces....for a finish, I was nearly rooting for the Christians. I shall read it again at my leisure but just to say I'm thinking your future wife and kids are better off for your conversion :cool:

generic2012

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Good for you. Just one more step to agnosticism and a view based on reason.

Do you mean agnosticism is a step 'beyond' atheism in terms of reason?

generic2012

Obliq wrote: »

Dude, that was funny. Approach; tone; taking antiskeptic to pieces....for a finish, I was nearly rooting for the Christians. I shall read it again at my leisure but just to say I'm thinking your future wife and kids are better off for your conversion :cool:

Glad some one appreciated it!

Chazz Michael Michaels

generic2012 wrote: »

Do you mean agnosticism is a step 'beyond' atheism in terms of reason?

I think atheism requires a leap of faith, as no human can possibly know the answer to "that question". It is more reasonable and honest to say that we cannot know. I was an atheist for many years myself. I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics. The honest ones, at least.

generic2012

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I think atheism requires a leap of faith, as no human can possibly know the answer to "that question". It is more reasonable and honest to say that we cannot know. I was an atheist for many years myself. I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics. The honest ones, at least.

Are you agnostic towards evolution by any chance?

oscarBravo

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics. The honest ones, at least.

It's a pretty uncouth debating tactic to claim that people who apparently disagree with you are dishonest.

Knex*

That thread reads like you had long made up your mind before you ever entered the discussion!

Was quite enjoyable. A personal favourite:

"I'll leave the goalposts where you moved them".

Chazz Michael Michaels

generic2012 wrote: »

Are you agnostic towards evolution by any chance?

Yes. I guess I am agnostic to most things. To be an atheist is to implicitly declare that you know there are no god/s. Which you, with your limited human brain, with the limits of human knowledge (present and future) and with the infinity of the universe/s cannot possibly know. To state otherwise is to live a lie. So to be agnostic is simply acknowledging these facts. To be atheist requires some assumptions or, to put it another way, faith.

Chazz Michael Michaels

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a pretty uncouth debating tactic to claim that people who apparently disagree with you are dishonest.

Perhaps not intentionally so, I mean.

Gordon

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I think atheism requires a leap of faith, as no human can possibly know the answer to "that question". It is more reasonable and honest to say that we cannot know. I was an atheist for many years myself. I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics. The honest ones, at least.

I take it you're specifically referring to the atheists that state 'I know there isn't a/any god(s)' yeah? As opposed to the atheists that state that it's pretty impossible to say 100%?

Turtwig

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Yes. I guess I am agnostic to most things. To be an atheist is to implicitly declare that you know there are no god/s. Which you, with your limited human brain, with the limits of human knowledge (present and future) and with the infinity of the universe/s cannot possibly know. To state otherwise is to live a lie. So to be agnostic is simply acknowledging these facts. To be atheist requires some assumptions or, to put it another way, faith.

It depends. Most folks here use the more pragmatic definition for atheism. The absence of belief in deities. Not believing in something doesn't mean you're claiming that something definitely doesn't exist. It just means that presently you don't believe it does. To put it another way, most atheists are agnostics. Agnosticism is a position of whether something is knowable or not. Atheism is a stance of believe. So agnostic theists believe in God but accept you can't know for certain. Agnostic atheists don't have belief in God but also accept you can't know for certain. This, of course, does not mean there is 50/50 split between the two in terms of uncertainty.
You're talking about gnostic atheists.

Knasher

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics.

Most atheists openly consider themselves agnostic atheists. And I wouldn't object to being called an agnostic atheist. Personally though I'd self identify as only atheist because I don't think the term agnostic really adds a lot to the term atheist. Being an atheist doesn't mean I'm claiming to understand how the universe came into existence, it simply means that I don't accept that a deity created it. I am not agnostic on my position, and my position doesn't imply certainty, so I don't see the point in adding agnostic unless somebody asks.

Sofaspud

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

To be atheist requires some assumptions or, to put it another way, faith.

No it doesn't. If you're not a theist, you're atheist. If you don't have a defined belief in a god, you're atheist.

As you said, when you "scratch at" atheists, they're agnostic.
Everyone's agnostic, as nobody truly knows. However, most people who call themselves agnostic are, in fact, atheist, when you scratch at them.

Obliq

Knex. wrote: »

That thread reads like you had long made up your mind before you ever entered the discussion!

Was quite enjoyable.

I have a few favourites but can't link on my rubbish netbook, but yeah, sounds like you had a number of questions to ask that might have been brewing for a while. I particularly liked your "a watch is intricate" hypothesis. Nice.

However, agnostic/atheist......can someone else link that handy visual chart that all newly fledged atheists seem to need (*coughs* ...like I did...)? I have to say fairly closed-mindedagnostic atheist, myself.

generic2012

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Yes. I guess I am agnostic to most things. To be an atheist is to implicitly declare that you know there are no god/s. Which you, with your limited human brain, with the limits of human knowledge (present and future) and with the infinity of the universe/s cannot possibly know. To state otherwise is to live a lie. So to be agnostic is simply acknowledging these facts. To be atheist requires some assumptions or, to put it another way, faith.

In reality every one is agnostic to every thing. I am, technically, agnostic towards the earth being round, but it would quite silly of me to call myself agnostic to it in reality when EVERY thing around me would suggest the contrary. If some one told me I was typing to a well trained budgie I would have to have some agnosticism towards that statement but if I acted upon that view I would be an idiot.

Everyone can be an agnostic in theory but in reality you have to make a choice. When you live your day to day life do you act as a believer or non believer?

Chazz Michael Michaels

Gordon wrote: »

I take it you're specifically referring to the atheists that state 'I know there isn't a/any god(s)' yeah? As opposed to the atheists that state that it's pretty impossible to say 100%?

Yes, and the latter group are agnostics.

Gordon

Agnostic atheist or agnostic theist?

Sarky

Agnostic agnostic. They don't know what they believe and they never will. Obviously.

Chazz Michael Michaels

generic2012 wrote: »

In reality every one is agnostic to every thing. I am, technically, agnostic towards the earth being round, but it would quite silly of me to call myself agnostic to it in reality when EVERY thing around me would suggest the contrary. If some one told me I was typing to a well trained budgie I would have to have some agnosticism towards that statement but if I acted upon that view I would be an idiot.

Everyone can be an agnostic in theory but in reality you have to make a choice. When you live your day to day life do you act as a believer or non believer?

Neither. My choice is a very clear statement, not fence sitting. You cannot know. Not, I don't know.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Gordon wrote: »

Agnostic atheist or agnostic theist?

Both contain two beliefs, as I know it. What you personally believe, and what you admit is really the case.

Obliq

Srsly, someone with that visual, already! Pie chart thingies are good.

Brian Shanahan

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I think atheism requires a leap of faith, as no human can possibly know the answer to "that question".

How is "there is no evidence to support abandoning the null hypothesis, therefore I refuse to abandon the null hypothesis, until I receive evidence which would lead me to abandoning it" (the very definition of atheism) a leap of faith?

Sofaspud

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Neither. My choice is a very clear statement, not fence sitting. You cannot know. Not, I don't know.

This means you don't actively believe in a god, therefore you're atheist.

Turtwig

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Neither. My choice is a very clear statement, not fence sitting. You cannot know. Not, I don't know.

That's early skepticism. The philosophy that you can't ever know anything.

generic2012

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Neither. My choice is a very clear statement, not fence sitting. You cannot know. Not, I don't know.

You have to act on one or the other. Atheism is based around belief or lack off, not knowledge. If you saw a burning bush and heard a voice from all around you telling you to kill some one you loved, would you go out and do it or would decide to stop buying cigarettes from that stall on Henry St.?

Gordon

Obliq wrote: »

Srsly, someone with that visual, already! Pie chart thingies are good.

Unless you're piegnostic.

endacl

Good thread. Biscuits time yet?

Chazz Michael Michaels

Sofaspud wrote: »

This means you don't actively believe in a god, therefore you're atheist.

All agnostics must be atheists then...

Chazz Michael Michaels

generic2012 wrote: »

You have to act on one or the other. Atheism is based around belief or lack off, not knowledge. If you saw a burning bush and heard a voice from all around you telling you to kill some one you loved. Would you go out and do it or with decide to stop buying cigarettes from a stall on Henry St.?

No, I really don't. It sounds like the latent effects of religion are still present in you. This all or nothing thinking. Also, belief or lack of is obviously based on knowledge. That's simply logical.

Turtwig

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

All agnostics must be atheists then...

Depends. If the don't believe in deity then they can also be categorised as atheists. Doesn't matter if they believe in a spiritual realm or not. You can also have agnostics who believe in a deity of some form. They're theists.

penzo

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

I think atheism requires a leap of faith, as no human can possibly know the answer to "that question". It is more reasonable and honest to say that we cannot know. I was an atheist for many years myself. I find when you really scratch at atheists, you find they are really agnostics. The honest ones, at least.

\

I often find when people say agnostic and atheist they usually have the same beliefs, but differ in that agnostics say agnostic instead of athiest to avoid listening to terrible things like "atheism requires a leap of faith". it's like a get out of jail card for listening to crap arguments.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Jernal wrote: »

Depends. If the don't believe in deity then they can also be categorised as atheists. Doesn't matter if they believe in a spiritual realm or not. You can also have agnostics who believe in a deity of some form. They're theists.

Therefore agnostics don't really exist. I've heard this all before.

Turtwig

For bliqy.

Chazz Michael Michaels

penzo wrote: »

\

I often find when people say agnostic and atheist they usually have the same beliefs, but differ in that agnostics say agnostic instead of athiest to avoid listening to terrible things like "atheism requires a leap of faith". it's like a get out of jail card listening to crap arguments.

Atheism requires assumptions. I call that faith. Semantics.

Turtwig

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Therefore agnostics don't really exist. I've heard this all before.

I just said that they do. They're a distinct set. However, in union with that set you either have atheism or theism if we're discussing deities.

Knasher

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

All agnostics must be atheists then...

It is possible to think that a god exists but also think that it is impossible to be certain one way or the other. Personally I'd expect that agnostic theism is actually the majority position.

Turtwig

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Atheism requires assumptions. I call that faith. Semantics.

No it doesn't. If someone is never aware of the deity concept. What assumptions are they making. What label would you attach to such individuals who don't believe in a god but also have no awareness of a the concept?

Chazz Michael Michaels

Jernal wrote: »

I just said that they do. They're a distinct set. However, however in union what set you either have atheism or theism.

I understand that. But I don't rule out there being a god/s. I'm not an atheist. Nor am I a theist. I just focus on what we can know. Supernatural beings don't float into that spectrum, for me.

Its funny, but since I landed on this view, I stopped caring whether there is a god or not. It used to occupy my mind, as an atheist...

penzo

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Atheism requires assumptions. I call that faith. Semantics.

sorry i'm an agnostic now

generic2012

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

No, I really don't. It sounds like the latent effects of religion are still present in you. This all or nothing thinking. Also, belief or lack of is obviously based on knowledge. That's simply logical.

You obviously didn't read the link I included in my original post? What you're debating is basically the English language. I'm not going to say I'm agnostic towards gravity, even though I COULD float off into the sky, because it be totally ridiculous to even bother uttering such a thing. In theory God could exist, I could float into space and Angelina could get back to my emails but I'm not going to bother even slightly entertaining any of those ideas. Well I have entertained the Angelina one a few times... Agnosticism is OK for people who haven't fully sorted out their thinking, but the type you talk about is a waste of time and mental resource.