S & S and class periods

trihead

hi all,

Just trying to get a picture what is happening in other schools in relation to s & s if you class period is not the 'standard ' 40 mins. What is happening in schools if you class periods are 1 hr long or even 30 mins long - are you still being asked to block off 5 periods as per the circular letter?

I thought initially it was up to 3hrs in total but I have been told - no its 5 class periods (regardless of the length of the period) up to 3 hrs max per week.

thanks for any info

Trihead:)

fall

Hour long here so three class periods allocated and adhered to. Refuse to do anything else. You only have six blocks free as it is when you have hour long classes.

Outsidethebox

Can s&s be used for special centres for 2nd/5th year christmas exams?

happywithlife

Outsidethebox wrote: »

Can s&s be used for special centres for 2nd/5th year christmas exams?

I wouldn't have thought so.
Are ye doing block supervision? Surely there are enough teachers to cover all centres?

evolving_doors

happywithlife wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so.
Are ye doing block supervision? Surely there are enough teachers to cover all centres?

Maybe Outsidethebox is referring to when a teacher is out but down for supervising xmas exams? Although it seems that in some schools you are just told where to go .....and you go.

In terms of transparency (and fairness!!!!)... is the rota ever publicly displayed in anyone's staffroom?

Moody_mona

Yes Armelodie, in ours, full weeks rota goes up and stays up. Number of hours are totted and displayed in the final column. For the most part it's done pro-rata.

evolving_doors

Moody_mona wrote: »

Yes Armelodie, in ours, full weeks rota goes up and stays up. Number of hours are totted and displayed in the final column. For the most part it's done pro-rata.

Wow, id say your in a minority there... Ours is a mystery (although I'm not signed up to it in the first place!)....you get a phone call and told where to go...

Maybe it might be one for the unions to persue.. rota to be posted in a public place etc.

teacherhead

Armelodie wrote: »

Wow, id say your in a minority there... Ours is a mystery (although I'm not signed up to it in the first place!)....you get a phone call and told where to go...

Maybe it might be one for the unions to persue.. rota to be posted in a public place etc.

are you confusing exam supervision with general. s&s? Surely the s&s rota is done annually

evolving_doors

teacherhead wrote: »

are you confusing exam supervision with general. s&s? Surely the s&s rota is done annually

Aye, suppose my point was that there is a big difference in some schools between who is down to supervise and who usually ends up being called to do it, the rota may well be done beforehand, but there's many a slip between the cup and the lip. If two teachers are down for S&S at the same time but it's the same person being called on to do it on a regular basis, a bit of transparency could go a long way.

happywithlife

Armelodie wrote: »

Maybe Outsidethebox is referring to when a teacher is out but down for supervising xmas exams? Although it seems that in some schools you are just told where to go .....and you go.

In terms of transparency (and fairness!!!!)... is the rota ever publicly displayed in anyone's staffroom?

Any school I've been in generally has the supervision rota for Xmas exams up on the notice board in the staff room and everybody can see what everybody else is (or isn't 😉) doing

implausible

Our DP hands out a sheet in the morning to teachers who will be called on for subbing that day. It clearly labels who's out and who's covering. I have advised all staff to keep a running tot of their hours and they can compare with the list we'll all get after Christmas from the DP with the hours' total on it.

As for exam supervision, if you have 2nd years and they're doing an exam, you go and supervise them for that class. S/s only comes into it if you are covering for a teacher who is out and the absent teacher is supposed to be supervising an exam.

teacherhead

implausible wrote: »

Our DP hands out a sheet in the morning to teachers who will be called on for subbing that day. It clearly labels who's out and who's covering. I have advised all staff to keep a running tot of their hours and they can compare with the list we'll all get after Christmas from the DP with the hours' total on it.

As for exam supervision, if you have 2nd years and they're doing an exam, you go and supervise them for that class. S/s only comes into it if you are covering for a teacher who is out and the absent teacher is supposed to be supervising an exam.

Yea same here.

solerina

Our rota is put up a week or so before the exams begin, everyone gets a day or more off (usually of their own choice), its done on a full time /part time basis so no one gets screwed.

teacherhead

solerina wrote: »

Our rota is put up a week or so before the exams begin, everyone gets a day or more off (usually of their own choice), its done on a full time /part time basis so no one gets screwed.

Do ye run exams for all classes first year to sixth?

solerina

teacherhead wrote: »

Do ye run exams for all classes first year to sixth?

Yeah, the entire school does exams for the last 4 days of term, lots of work setting and correcting papers but you get the day off to do it so its OK.

Peter Flynt

Do ASTI teachers who have not done S&S to date now have to cover 43 hours in the remainder of this academic year?

Considering that half the academic year is over . . .surely this should be reduced to 21.5 hours per teacher for the remainder of the academic year?

TheDriver

ultimately it would depend on the circular and if pay will be backdated to July. Also, it rarely works out as evenly over the year and also the reality that many asti members in schools have been completing S&S up to now (under the guise that it would be paid). I would think that it would be contentious if people who had been doing it have to do 43 taking into account what they have already done and others only 21.5.

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

ultimately it would depend on the circular and if pay will be backdated to July. Also, it rarely works out as evenly over the year and also the reality that many asti members in schools have been completing S&S up to now (under the guise that it would be paid). I would think that it would be contentious if people who had been doing it have to do 43 taking into account what they have already done and others only 21.5.

Incremental pay will be backdated and anyone who has done S&S to date will have that time deducted from their 43 hours but will not get paid for it.

There is a large minority of teachers who have not done S&S to date in this academic year . . .I would assume that they could be asked to cover the maximum of 3 hours per week for the rest of the academic year until they reach 43 hours.

solerina

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Do ASTI teachers who have not done S&S to date now have to cover 43 hours in the remainder of this academic year?

Considering that half the academic year is over . . .surely this should be reduced to 21.5 hours per teacher for the remainder of the academic year?

Id love to know the answer to this question too...in my school just under 50% of teachers have been involved in S&S so far this year...its something that needs clarification asap so that those who have been doing it since Sept are not made to do the full quota and those who stayed out 'get away' with it ( I can see this issue causing friction if clarification is not available asap)

TheDriver

gut feeling is that if everything is backpaid to last July, then commitments will also be. However P and DP should ensure that there is a fair sharing of delivery i.e. not hearing that Tom does 43 and John does 2 to ensure the implementation doesn't cause friction because circular generally doesn't refer to equality but rather delivery.

Peter Flynt

solerina wrote: »

Id love to know the answer to this question too...in my school just under 50% of teachers have been involved in S&S so far this year...its something that needs clarification asap so that those who have been doing it since Sept are not made to do the full quota and those who stayed out 'get away' with it ( I can see this issue causing friction if clarification is not available asap)

I suppose if it were to be reduced to 21.5 hours per teacher then those who have done S&S to date could argue that they no longer have to do it for the rest of this academic year [assuming they've reached 21.5 hours]

I'd say that ASTI teachers who have not done S&S to date will be liable for the FULL 43 hours on the basis that when Haddington Road was passed it is assumed to have begun on 01 July. These teachers will also receive any increment due to them from 01 July.

So yea. . .An ASTI teacher who has not done S&S to date could be instructed to do 3 hours per week S&S until the end of the academic year. . .Their union stayed quiet on that one.

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

gut feeling is that if everything is backpaid to last July, then commitments will also be. However P and DP should ensure that there is a fair sharing of delivery i.e. not hearing that Tom does 43 and John does 2 to ensure the implementation doesn't cause friction because circular generally doesn't refer to equality but rather delivery.

Is there any basis for teachers to ask management for figures of those doing S&S as time passes. . . or is this supposed to be done on trust?

In my school the DPs put up a S&S roster for each day . . . There would be nothing wrong with asking them to put up a table (say once a month) showing how many hours each teacher has done?

solerina

In my school the DP arrives to the particular teacher and gives tells them what class they are covering, its usually done the day before you are needed but if someone rings in sick then it could be an hour or so before the actual class. We have no way of knowing who does it regularly and who rarely if ever gets 'caught'....however I feel that its fairly divided if possible (obviously it depends on which periods you had originally signed up for).

solerina

..we have been told that if we are on S&S rota that we must be available in the staffroom for the entire class period in case we are needed....it rarely if ever happens but I suppose emergencies do happen.

Peter Flynt

solerina wrote: »

we have been told that if we are on S&S rota that we must be available in the staffroom for the entire class period in case we are needed....it rarely if ever happens but I suppose emergencies do happen.

Well that's true. . . You have to nominate 5 periods and you are on call at a moments notice for all 5.

evolving_doors

mod warning : thread cleaned up...

Please use report button rather than responding to inflamitory comments on thread.

Also be aware that a lot of stuff is still up in the air until the dust settles over the next few weeks.

Speculate away but keep it civil.

evolving_doors

.

smallgarden

Anybody know what happens if you're a temporary teacher. Is it only permanent and rpt teachers contracted for the year who are contracted to do s&s

teacherhead

smallgarden wrote: »

Anybody know what happens if you're a temporary teacher. Is it only permanent and rpt teachers contracted for the year who are contracted to do s&s

everyone's in pro rata unless you can avail of the buy out option.

fall

Not so in our place. Temporary teachers don't do s and s at all. If they are covering a long term sick leave they don't do any because technically the teacher could come back tomorrow. A contract has to be in place.

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Is there any basis for teachers to ask management for figures of those doing S&S as time passes. . . or is this supposed to be done on trust?

In my school the DPs put up a S&S roster for each day . . . There would be nothing wrong with asking them to put up a table (say once a month) showing how many hours each teacher has done?

Anyone who wants to see their figures are more than welcome to check the books at any stage but I wouldn't put up a running tally on the staff room walls because it creates a bit of teachers spying on each other and other factors which may not be understood e.g. some teachers will ask not to do much s&s in oral times or practical exam times or musical times etc but happily do more elsewhere but its hard to reflect this on the cold spreadsheet.
A daily roster should always be put up at the earliest convenience however there are last minute emergencies and you would be shocked at how many teachers who leave home at 7-8 normally and start school at 9 but can't ring sick until 8:59 but c'est la vie....

DK man

Anyone else asked to attend weekly pastoral care meetings during lunch time as part of their s&s? This is something that I'm not too happy about....

happywithlife

smallgarden wrote: »

Anybody know what happens if you're a temporary teacher. Is it only permanent and rpt teachers contracted for the year who are contracted to do s&s

I know in the past when I've subbed for teachers who opted into to the scheme I covered their classes/breaks but I would have been paid direct from the school afterwards - sometimes ! Other times I've forgotten about it tbh and it often wasn't worth perusing the school to see if I should have been paid as I'd have been hoping to be get more work from them ...
Last time I subbed, I got a lovely check for 200 odd euro late in the summer as I'd covered someone's stint since pretty much after Xmas through to the summer. They were job sharing so I'd only done hrs pro rata I think.

happywithlife

DK man wrote: »

Anyone else asked to attend weekly pastoral care meetings during lunch time as part of their s&s? This is something that I'm not too happy about....

How would that come under the remit of the s&s scheme though

teacherhead

happywithlife wrote: »

How would that come under the remit of the s&s scheme though

In the old scheme schools got €1700 * no of teachers they used the surplus of teachers not doing s&s to pay others to do it. So of you had ten not doing ot yoy would have 17k to pay either part time teachers, external supervisors or ful time teachers up to a max, of 49 hours.

I can't see how this will work under the new scheme, if a load of staff opt out there is no budget to pay anyone else. I'd say ot could become pro rata for subs too. So if doing a week's sick leave you will pick up all of the teaching plus supervision. I dont know, I can't see how else it could run if theres no.money

DK man

happywithlife wrote: »

How would that come under the remit of the s&s scheme though

That's my issue! It's the creep - door opens slightly and next thing these hours will be used for lunch time grinds for the higher maths class etc or we will be timetabled for extra classes. I was the only one who questioned it the others just sucked it up.. I asked the union rep and he didn't seem to be very clear on the limits of how theses hours are to be used.

I think Tui need to issue a directive to all schools stating how these hours are to be used...

gaeilgebeo

DK man wrote: »

That's my issue! It's the creep - door opens slightly and next thing these hours will be used for lunch time grinds for the higher maths class etc or we will be timetabled for extra classes. I was the only one who questioned it the others just sucked it up.. I asked the union rep and he didn't seem to be very clear on the limits of how theses hours are to be used.

I think Tui need to issue a directive to all schools stating how these hours are to be used...

That doesn't sound right to me. It's slightly unfair to those teachers who do have to cover lunchtime supervision minus the teachers who should be helping but are in a meeting! How many teachers does this involve? What did ye do pre-HRA?

km79

No update from union on this . what happens monday ? Same fools who kept schools open until now continue to operate scheme I guess until its all sorted .......(I am one of those fools by the way)

teacherhead

DK man wrote: »

That's my issue! It's the creep - door opens slightly and next thing these hours will be used for lunch time grinds for the higher maths class etc or we will be timetabled for extra classes. I was the only one who questioned it the others just sucked it up.. I asked the union rep and he didn't seem to be very clear on the limits of how theses hours are to be used.

I think Tui need to issue a directive to all schools stating how these hours are to be used...

The TUI position is that s&s is for s&s. You can't allow it to be used for teaching. Of 20 teachers do an hour a week teaching as part of s&s that would be one wte without a job.

TheDriver

it has been a long time understanding that s&s cannot be utilised for curriculum provision nor for providing meetings etc. It is for supervising or substituting absent teachers

Having said that, I know a few teachers who would prefer meetings to be counted towards their commitment rather than watching kids.

Miss Lockhart

Unfortunately it has been the norm in my school for teachers to have timetabled classes for S&S. TUI have been informed but have done nothing.

DK man

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That doesn't sound right to me. It's slightly unfair to those teachers who do have to cover lunchtime supervision minus the teachers who should be helping but are in a meeting! How many teachers does this involve? What did ye do pre-HRA?

It involves about 8 teachers. Pre hra these were scheduled during class times -


about half of those attending wouldn't have reduced timetable or no timetabled hrs.

doc_17

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Unfortunately it has been the norm in my school for teachers to have timetabled classes for S&S. TUI have been informed but have done nothing.

So there are teachers timetabled for more than 22hrs every week? ie they are responsible for teaching the same class at the same time every week for the whole school year in an examination subject? If so I'd be astonished the union have done nothing!

Miss Lockhart

doc_17 wrote: »

So there are teachers timetabled for more than 22hrs every week? ie they are responsible for teaching the same class at the same time every week for the whole school year in an examination subject? If so I'd be astonished the union have done nothing!

Yes. It isn't always an examination subject (not sure why that would make it less important) but it often is. Many classes are offered "extra" classes this way - giving 7 periods a week for HL Maths or 6 for HL Irish. The inspectorate thinks it's marvellous.

doc_17

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Yes. It isn't always an examination subject (not sure why that would make it less important) but it often is. Many classes are offered "extra" classes this way - giving 7 periods a week for HL Maths or 6 for HL Irish. The inspectorate thinks it's marvellous.

Are teachers happy to do it? Or have people mentioned it to the union?

Miss Lockhart

doc_17 wrote: »

Are teachers happy to do it? Or have people mentioned it to the union?

Some teachers prefer it to the idea of random classes. Some teachers are ok with it. Some are very unhappy and think it is a disgrace due to the effect on jobs. It has been brought to the union.

km79

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Some teachers prefer it to the idea of random classes. Some teachers are ok with it. Some are very unhappy and think it is a disgrace due to the effect on jobs. It has been brought to the union.

Shows how useful a union sub is ....that's a disgrace. Its no wonder the likes of PeterFlynt is wary about increasing managements power.....
Anyway I have contacted the union twice this week on how s and s will work from monday 9am.
Will all teaching staff be rostered until some formally opt out OR will only those who can't opt out be rostered for first few weeks OR will only us fools who did it from Sept to Jan be expected to do it for time being ?
This should have been clarified by now.
I've got no response

evolving_doors

Just posted on ASTI website regarding S&S.....HERE

km79

Armelodie wrote: »

Just posted on ASTI website regarding S&S.....HERE

So very very predictable. We have all signed up to HRA but for 2 more weeks only us fools do the s and s

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

So very very predictable. We have all signed up to HRA but for 2 more weeks only us fools do the s and s

I suppose first day back and unions/department can't really tell schools what to do without meetings. From posts here it seems S & S is a very loose term in some schools with no clear directive. Lets hope it gets straightened out in the next two weeks..

km79

Armelodie wrote: »

I suppose first day back and unions/department can't really tell schools what to do without meetings. From posts here it seems S & S is a very loose term in some schools with no clear directive. Lets hope it gets straightened out in the next two weeks..

Seems suspicious now that the exact date Quinn threatened to stop paying s and s is the date chosen by the union of the rollout of the new scheme. It's almost as if they were in on it together ......