clamped appeal and conflict

tarzon

On the 11.11.2013 i had parked my car in the Gulliver’sretail park @ 11:30pm just outside costa coffee while i had went around toMcDonalds in my mate’s car to get something to eat. We had come back around onthe 12.11.2013 we had driven back around @ 00.02 to find that my car had beenclamped by your company. I then looked for a sign and to notice that the signwas not in a good location as there is a tree if front of which does not makeit easy to see in the dark. As i had to go over to read the sign it states thatthere is no parking from midnight to 6.00am and as i read the notice on the carthe car was clamped 12.11.2013 @ 00.01 am. On the flip side of that there isanother sign stating that there is a max of one hour parking on the entrance upat the spar which is very confusing. I think that i have been treated unfairlyas being one minute passed twelve as he must have been waiting there andstarted to put the clamp on at twelve o'clock and wrote the ticket at oneminute passed twelve but myunderstanding is that if I’m doing business in the park i should be entitled topark there. On another note when I hadrang the number and tried to explain my situation to the person on the phone hehad a very bad attitude on the phone and did not have good phone manner talkingto costumers I explained to him that I got clamped at one minute passed twelveand that they did not give me a chance to get back quick enough to get may carand decided just to clamp and his answer was you will just have to pay for itto be released there is nothing else that can be done.

Can anyone give and advice on this as I did not get a proper explanation as to why they clamped me

Paulw

tarzon wrote: »

Can anyone give and advice on this as I did not get a proper explanation as to why they clamped me

They clamped you because you were parked there during the hours you were not permitted to park there. If you can't park there from 00:00 to 06:00 then they can clamp you from any time between 00:00 to 06:00 for being parked there.

00:01 is within that timeframe.

They don't have to allow you any grace time to get back to your car, as your car should be removed from the parking area prior to 00:00.

The other sign stating you may be parked there for a max of 1 hour would indicate that you may park there, for a maximum of 1 hour, between the hours of 06:00 and 00:00.

Sorry, but I can't see you having a successful claim.

Morph the Cat

Not sure why you're confused, OP. You don't think 00:01 is after 00:00? It's not really subjective.

Cabaal

The sign clearly says no overnight parking, so that without a doubt overrules any sign that says you can park for 1-3 hours.
If it didn't then any idiot could just park overnight until 3am and this would make the no overnight parking sign useless.

Bottom line is it doesn't matter of it was 0:01 or 0:45 you ignored the sign,

I don't see how you have a come back here considering you didn't look for signs in the area before parking, if this is your best defense and you think this is a valid defense then anybody could use this to get out of tickets.

emeldc

It looks like they have you there alright but seriously, is it any wonder people lose the rag and end up on assault and/or criminal damage charges with this 'one minute over the time' bull sh1t.

Scortho

Who put the clamp on the car?
Were they authorised by the council to do so?
It's illegal to immobilise someone else's car unless they've been given authorisation to do so by the council.

Whether they can do it on private property or not is a grey area of the law. There's been numerous people who've had the clamp "fall off" the car and not been prosecuted because the likes of apcoa are afraid to take it to court.

Cabaal

emeldc wrote: »

It looks like they have you there alright but seriously, is it any wonder people lose the rag and end up on assault and/or criminal damage charges with this 'one minute over the time' bull sh1t.

Yeah, I mean how dare people respect the rules! Its shocking!
:rolleyes:

Morph the Cat

emeldc wrote: »

is it any wonder people lose the rag and end up on assault and/or criminal damage charges with this 'one minute over the time' bull sh1t.

People like you irritate me because you rabble on, yet don't think logically about the situation. If they gave you 10mins grace period, you'd be saying "I was only 1 min over the grace period FFS"; you'd be moaning either way. There can't be a grace period or any grey area. It needs to be clearly defined.

L1011

How can the centre consider it reasonable to impose a parking restriction like that when they have a tenant that opens 24 hours?

Its a private clamper, look on the motors forum for the best way of dealing with them.

emeldc

Morph the Cat wrote: »

People like you irritate me because you rabble on, yet don't think logically about the situation. If they gave you 10mins grace period, you'd be saying "I was only 1 min over the grace period FFS"; you'd be moaning either way. There can't be a grace period or any grey area. It needs to be clearly defined.

If you read the post I said the clampers were probably in the right. Do you think if it happened to a woman left on her own in an almost empty car park at midnight because she was a minute over the time, that the self righteous brigade on here would be saying 'tough sh1t missus, you were late'.
Would you come up for air!

Bepolite

emeldc wrote: »

If you read the post I said the clampers were probably in the right. Do you think if it happened to a woman left on her own in an almost empty car park at midnight because she was a minute over the time, that the self righteous brigade on here would be saying 'tough sh1t missus, you were late'.
Would you come up for air!

Yes I would, because yelling a screaming is going to get you know where and as for your suggestion that it's okay to assault someone over this, I know you were joking/exaggerating but cop on.

OP pay the fine, keep all the correspondence and appeal, do a search in motors and the Legal Discussions forum (dont open a new post in LS - do a search). Private clampers are on very dodgey ground a properly worded letter may suffice, either that or you may have to go down the Small Claims route.

emeldc

Bepolite wrote: »

Yes I would, because yelling a screaming is going to get you know where and as for your suggestion that it's okay to assault someone over this, I know you were joking/exaggerating but cop on.

OP pay the fine, keep all the correspondence and appeal, do a search in motors and the Legal Discussions forum (dont open a new post in LS - do a search). Private clampers are on very dodgey ground a properly worded letter may suffice, either that or you may have to go down the Small Claims route.

Ah really, I'm surprised at you. Point out where I said the above

Bepolite

emeldc wrote: »

Ah really, I'm surprised at you. Point out where I said the above

emeldc wrote: »

It looks like they have you there alright but seriously, is it any wonder people lose the rag and end up on assault and/or criminal damage charges with this 'one minute over the time' bull sh1t.

Okay point taken you've not condoned it directly, my apologies. But to answer this point directly yes, it is a wonder to me and a venture most people that someone would assault someone else or damage property (beyond the clamp to be fair).

overshoot

not quite directly clamp related but may be relevant.
is there any area of the car park open 24hrs? planning regs require parking spaces to be provided relating to maybe floor area in this case. if there are units open, there should be spaces provided to cater for this. although im not saying they would be obliged to keep the entire car park open, just what the statutory requirements are for the open units
edit: just looked at sign 1, doesnt show a time limit on it while sign 2 does, id say your screwed. unless you have a video from 12.02 showing nobody about, 1 minute to clamp, put on the notice, drive off are they that fast?

Five Lamps

Scortho wrote: »

Who put the clamp on the car?

The company named on teh sign.

Scortho wrote: »

Were they authorised by the council to do so?

They don't need council permission or authorisation.

It's illegal to immobilise someone else's car unless they've been given authorisation to do so by the council.

This is not true.

Whether they can do it on private property or not is a grey area of the law. There's been numerous people who've had the clamp "fall off" the car and not been prosecuted because the likes of apcoa are afraid to take it to court.

The OP was using a private car park and does so according to their rules, terms and conditions. There is nothing to indicate that a clamping company is afraid to take anything to court - it's quite possible that they look at the time and cost of going court and work out it's cheaper just to let one go. For every one clamp that falls off there's 100 other paid for.

nompere

MYOB wrote: »

How can the centre consider it reasonable to impose a parking restriction like that when they have a tenant that opens 24 hours?

I don't think there's any business open after 11.00pm in that place. The OP said he left his car there, and went off with a mate, in the mate's car, to McDonalds.

Technoprisoner

N.C.P.S remove the clamp off your car and forget it ever happened to you

Cabaal

nompere wrote: »

I don't think there's any business open after 11.00pm in that place. The OP said he left his car there, and went off with a mate, in the mate's car, to McDonalds.

McDonalds website says its 24hrs in that park, only other place open late is Spar which closed at 11pm.

L1011

nompere wrote: »

I don't think there's any business open after 11.00pm in that place. The OP said he left his car there, and went off with a mate, in the mate's car, to McDonalds.

McDonalds is in the same development and is 24/7.

emeldc

MYOB wrote: »

McDonalds is in the same development and is 24/7.

I'm not familiar with the place but do McDonalds have their own car park or how does it work after midnight.

L1011

emeldc wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the place but do McDonalds have their own car park or how does it work after midnight.

They don't.

There are two seperate sections of carpark, either of which is logical enough to park in for McDonalds. One small one which is better lit and one huge one which is closer to McDonalds but most of the lights are out (or were last time I was there).

A huge % of their businesss at night would be drivethrough rather than park and walk in.

tarzon

NCPS put the clamp onto my car but on further inspection of the area

1. The sign is not well displayed as it behind a tree

2. If McDonalds' is opened 24 hours would we not be entitled to use the car park
if we are doing business in the retail park as WE ARE NOT GOING TO DRIVE TWO CARS THROUGHT THE DRIVE THROUGHT

3. There is more than one sign in the retail park giving conflict of rules on parking from two different companies as I have shown in the pictures

The replay that I have got from the appeals of ncps dose not give any proper explanation apart from the rulings of there sign and answers to the questions I have asked

Cabaal as I said if you read the thread properly you would under stand

cml387

I don't know the area but I think the signs are confusing and the OP has a right to feel aggrieved.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Bepolite

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To be fair this is already the subject of a written judgment. Clamper's are entitled to the quantum of parking not paid for. If we stretch this we can say that's the time from close of the car park to it opening again (that is being exceptionally generous to the clamping company). It's no where near €120 though.

L1011

Bepolite wrote: »

To be fair this is already the subject of a written judgment. Clamper's are entitled to the quantum of parking not paid for. If we stretch this we can say that's the time from close of the car park to it opening again (that is being exceptionally generous to the clamping company). It's no where near €120 though.

Considering the parking is offered free during normal hours and with no option to pay for an overstay, what's the price assumed?

The only local carpark I can think of that charges is the SSC down the road which is roughly €3 an hour if that can be assumed to set a value for the area.

Morph the Cat

emeldc wrote: »

If you read the post I said the clampers were probably in the right. Do you think if it happened to a woman left on her own in an almost empty car park at midnight because she was a minute over the time, that the self righteous brigade on here would be saying 'tough sh1t missus, you were late'.
Would you come up for air!

You argued that there should be a grace period, which is an impractical idea, because the same morons who now argue "I was only 5 mins over the time" would then argue "I was only 5 mins over the grace period". You'll never be able to please these idiots because they never think they're wrong - the world is always against them. When they get clamped, it's not their fault. If they fail their driving test, it's because the instructor had it in for them. They think they should be allowed to return goods because they changed their mind and wade in like a barstool expert quoting non applicable consumer law, etc.

My point was that you suggested a completely impractical solution.

emeldc

Morph the Cat wrote: »

You argued that there should be a grace period, which is an impractical idea, because the same morons who now argue "I was only 5 mins over the time" would then argue "I was only 5 mins over the grace period". You'll never be able to please these idiots because they never think they're wrong - the world is always against them. When they get clamped, it's not their fault. If they fail their driving test, it's because the instructor had it in for them. They think they should be allowed to return goods because they changed their mind and wade in like a barstool expert quoting non applicable consumer law, etc.

My point was that you suggested a completely impractical solution.

Jesus H murf.........sorry, morf, I didn't suggest any solution
But in my world there is such a thing called discretion which was certainly not used here. By the looks of things the clamper waited until the stroke of midnight and clamped the OP's car for no reason other than financial gain. It's not like he was causing an obstruction or was way over time, it was 60 seconds FFS. Thank jebus I'm not on the receiving end of your idea of humanity too often.

Paulw

emeldc wrote: »

J
But in my world there is such a thing called discretion which was certainly not used here. By the looks of things the clamper waited until the stroke of midnight and clamped the OP's car.

So, in your world ... how long should the clamper sit and wait? 1 min isn't enough ... how about 5 min, 10 min, 30 min?? The car was parked a while, according to the OP, no sign of any driver around ... why should the clamping agent hang around to see if someone returns? I'm sure they have other sites to visit too.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

overshoot

Paulw wrote: »

So, in your world ... how long should the clamper sit and wait? 1 min isn't enough ... how about 5 min, 10 min, 30 min?? The car was parked a while, according to the OP, no sign of any driver around ... why should the clamping agent hang around to see if someone returns? I'm sure they have other sites to visit too.

i hope you have never been annoyed when a garage charges you that 1c you went over the 20e when filling up

im going to bring this up again... the OP said he arrived back at 00.02 and went looking for a sign, suggesting to me the clampers were finished and gone. could they really clamp and be out of there in under 2 minutes? by the time they put on the clamp, window notice, take the picture, is there more documentation? drive off, none of this hugely time consuming but 1 minute is some going!
see if costa would let you look at their cameras, im sure they have a time stamp

emeldc

Paulw wrote: »

So, in your world ... how long should the clamper sit and wait? 1 min isn't enough ... how about 5 min, 10 min, 30 min?? The car was parked a while, according to the OP, no sign of any driver around ... why should the clamping agent hang around to see if someone returns? I'm sure they have other sites to visit too.

Look I think we've established that the clamper was perfectly within his rights to apply the clamp once the clock had passed midnight.
If he was to apply a little discretion he might wait 5 mins. If the clamper had real human feelings (which is unlikely) he might give the driver 10 mins. I really don't think any one could argue with a clamp if they were more than 10 mins over the time. But 60 secs is showing Zero tolerance. It has nothing to do with what other sites he has to visit. It's a money making exercise and in my opinion it's unjust. That's all.

Guy:Incognito

overshoot wrote: »

i hope you have never been annoyed when a garage charges you that 1c you went over the 20e when filling up

Why would you be annoyed? Your bill is 20.01. If the garage wants 20.01 that's perfectly reasonable.

overshoot

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why would you be annoyed? Your bill is 20.01. If the garage wants 20.01 that's perfectly reasonable.

the point was its amazing what a bit off leeway would get you in good will. ok a clamper isnt going to get deliberate repeat customers a garage will. in other words i hope you dont work in customer service!
anyway it only applies if the customer pays cash, a card transaction which many will switch to in that case will cost a lot more than 1c so its actually business sense too! before you look at repeat customers!

Paulw

emeldc wrote: »

Look I think we've established that the clamper was perfectly within his rights to apply the clamp once the clock had passed midnight.

Agreed.

emeldc wrote: »

If he was to apply a little discretion he might wait 5 mins. If the clamper had real human feelings (which is unlikely) he might give the driver 10 mins. It's a money making exercise and in my opinion it's unjust. That's all.

Of course it's money making. It's a business, and every business must make money and a profit.

Just curious ... what work do you do? Would you expect an employee to sit around for 5-10 mins, doing nothing? Do you sit around in your job for 5-10min and do nothing, with the permission of your boss? I doubt it. An idle employee is one that is not making money for the company.

overshoot wrote: »

i hope you have never been annoyed when a garage charges you that 1c you went over the 20e when filling up

Nope, wouldn't bother me in the least, and it happens from time to time. Usually I use an unmanned pump that just charges the card directly, so if it's €20.01, that is fine with me.

To the clamper, a clamped vehicle is just a vehicle. It's not a person.

The OP was unlucky, but you can't blame the clamper. The vehicle was there, unattended and parked beyond the time permitted.

emeldc

Paulw wrote: »

Just curious ... what work do you do? Would you expect an employee to sit around for 5-10 mins, doing nothing? Do you sit around in your job for 5-10min and do nothing, with the permission of your boss? I doubt it. An idle employee is one that is not making money for the company.

In my business I exercise discretion to staff and customers alike because it makes for a happy work place and its good for business. Your comparisons are not relevant as the clamper is not trying to entice more business.
I would be more interested to know what you do for a living, someone who shows zero tolerance and would stop pay on an employee who was 'idle' for 60 seconds or worse still for 5 mins.
Wait.………… you're a clamper!

camel jockey

OP, not seeing the problem. You were parked when you shouldn't have been.

Paulw

emeldc wrote: »

In my business I exercise discretion to staff and customers alike because it makes for a happy work place and its good for business.
Wait.………… you're a clamper!

But, to the clamping company, the customer is the site owner who have contracted them to enforce the terms and conditions they set - no parking between 00:00 and 06:00. The person who parks is not the customer.

Most clamping companies work multiple sites, so a single van would have a number of sites to patrol. If every van sits idle for periods of time, then they are not making money. As you have said, it's a money making business, and they need to keep patrolling their sites to clamp vehicles to make money and keep their customers happy.

I don't have any affilition to any clamping company, and never have.

Cabaal

emeldc wrote: »

Look I think we've established that the clamper was perfectly within his rights to apply the clamp once the clock had passed midnight.
If he was to apply a little discretion he might wait 5 mins. If the clamper had real human feelings (which is unlikely) he might give the driver 10 mins. I really don't think any one could argue with a clamp if they were more than 10 mins over the time. But 60 secs is showing Zero tolerance. It has nothing to do with what other sites he has to visit. It's a money making exercise and in my opinion it's unjust. That's all.

Clamper was doing his job,
Some people in this country have an awful problem respecting the rules.

emeldc, seems you have an awful chip on your shoulder when one of the first things you do when somebody points out that the clamper was just doing their job is the accuse the poster of being a clamper
:rolleyes:

emeldc

Cabaal wrote: »

Clamper was doing his job,
Some people in this country have an awful problem respecting the rules.

emeldc, seems you have an awful chip on your shoulder when one of the first things you do when somebody points out that the clamper was just doing their job is the accuse the poster of being a clamper
:rolleyes:

I really don't know where we're going with this. Paulw has a zero tolerance approach, I would exercise discretion. Why can it not be accepted that our opinions are different. We could argue about it all day but its kind of boring.

Five Lamps

Paulw wrote: »

So, in your world ... how long should the clamper sit and wait? 1 min isn't enough ... how about 5 min, 10 min, 30 min?? The car was parked a while, according to the OP, no sign of any driver around ... why should the clamping agent hang around to see if someone returns? I'm sure they have other sites to visit too.

It's generally assumed that there's 10 min grace.

Whoever wrote the ticket was making a point of 12.01. They would have been smarter if they had of put 12.10 as they can then turn around and say they were totally fair.

On the other hand, perhaps there is a problem with overnight parking in that car park and NCPS were demonstrating zero tolerance.

The OPs only chance is to show that there is adequate or conflicting signage. However, in some of these retail parks, parts of what looks like a single development can have different owners and developers. Different rules may apply to different car parks.

Paulw

Five Lamps wrote: »

It's generally assumed that there's 10 min grace.

I've never heard that before. I would assume that there is no grace period unless otherwise stated. I know that some councils give a 5-10 min grace period, but it's clearly stated on the signs and meters.

It's always safer to assume there is a 0min grace period.

Morph the Cat

emeldc wrote: »

I would exercise discretion.

I'm glad you don't work for me. Their job is to make money for their employer. Using "discretion" and letting people off as they see fit could put themselves & their co-workers out of a job. Genius idea there, Mr. Discretion.

NCPS: "Hi emeldc - I'm your new employer. Welcome aboard. This is the job I'd like you to do, in accordance with our strict guidelines."
emeldc: "Nah, I think I'll just use my own discretion and let some people off if they have a sob story or are just a teeny weeny bit late".
NCPS: "Cool - you're fired. Go join the Samaritans - this is a business."

emeldc

Paulw wrote: »

I've never heard that before. I would assume that there is no grace period unless otherwise stated. I know that some councils give a 5-10 min grace period, but it's clearly stated on the signs and meters.

It's always safer to assume there is a 0min grace period.

A lot of assumptions there

Morph the Cat wrote: »

I'm glad you don't work for me. Their job is to make money for their employer. Using "discretion" and letting people off as they see fit could put themselves & their co-workers out of a job. Genius idea there, Mr. Discretion.

Why have you such an issue with what I think. It's just an opinion. My opinion. Do you feel threatened by it in some way. If you do talk to Joe or build a bridge and GTF over it.
On a side issue, would you, pay (with a smile) a €80 fine and accept 2 penalty points if you were caught 'speeding' at 51kph in a 50kph zone. Of course you wouldn't because even speed vans exercise some discretion as will a guard with just out of date tax or a broken tail light. It's just one human showing humanity to another. So enough of this nonsense, lets agree to disagree and move on. Ok?

Paulw

emeldc wrote: »

On a side issue, would you, pay (with a smile) a €80 fine and accept 2 penalty points if you were caught 'speeding' at 51kph in a 50kph zone. Of course you wouldn't because even speed vans exercise some discretion

The speed vans don't exercise any discretion at all, as proven by the Garda stats on speeding fines. For the vans, once you are over the limit, the camera automatically triggers, which then results in you getting the fine and points in the post. There is no human intervention/discretion in the process. Only Gardai have the power of discretion.

There was a long thread in the motors section about it, where people were getting fines for being just slightly above the limit.

Personally, I wouldn't pay it with a smile, but I would pay it.

emeldc

Paulw wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't pay it with a smile, but I would pay it.

But why not pay it with a smile, if you're over the limit, you're over the limit. Surely you're not saying you would feel hard done by because you were only 1kph over the limit ................. just like the OP because he was 1 minute late.

And don't kid yourself, of course they show discretion, they have to. Some of the older cable driven speedo's are inaccurate to 4 or 5 kph under or over. So those caught doing 55kph may actually be doing closer to 60 kph. Now as with Morph the dog, enough of the nonsense.

Dubl07

Surely the whole point of clamping cars staying for excessive periods was/is to increase the turnover in retail outlets? They're not park & ride areas for commuters but some suffered abuse in the past which was why the clamping was brought in. It defies logic to clamp someone who is using the retail premises when the carpark is almost empty.

I used to shop quite frequently in the whole set of shops at Churchtown but now rarely use any of them and am vocal in explaining to all and sundry the clamping issues that have been encountered by motorists attempting to spend money in the area. Perhaps the problems experienced by who drive to the Churchtown shops has decreased but until I'm not aware of any policy changes. Until I am I will continue to spend my money elsewhere.

Morph the Cat

emeldc wrote: »

But why not pay it with a smile, if you're over the limit, you're over the limit. Surely you're not saying you would feel hard done by because you were only 1kph over the limit ................. just like the OP because he was 1 minute late.

Paying a fine without a smile is not the same as complaining about it to the company then coming on a forum for further whinging, which is what the OP did.

Nobody would pay "with a smile" - but most people, being adults who can accept responsibility for their own actions, would just pay without complaining since it was 100% their fault they got clamped.
Not sure why you keep bringing up that people should be smiling while paying - you're clutching at straws now. Where does smiling even come into this equation? If I get clamped and it was my own fault, I pay - I don't cry about it "waaaa, I was only a few mins late - his is soooo unfair!!". I pay - and do you know why? Because it was my fault and I'm an adult who accepts responsibility for my actions. My facial expression during the process is irrelevant... well, to most people it's irrelevant. To you it's "ha! you weren't smiling while you paid that fine - gotcha!" - gotcha for what, I'm still not sure...

emeldc wrote: »

Morph the dog

hahaha - My username is 'cat - but you changed it to 'dog' because you are funny. Do another one!!

dudara

Posters - enough of the handbags please. You've derailed the thread. If anyone continues this discussion, there will be infractions/bans.

dudara

Cienciano

Always carry a bolt cutters in your boot op.

dudara

We are not going to get into a discussion on the deliberate damaging of private property - you can take that over to the Motors forum

dudara