Bus use stopped by "Middle-class snobbishness"

monument

That's what junior minister Alan Kelly thinks: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/middle-class-snobbishness-curtailing-public-transport-use-1.1624696

It's nothing to do with a massively damaged brand, waiting forever for phantom buses, recent service cuts, past experience, recent experience, price increases for years along with a declining service on many route, buses not serving or connections not being dependable where many people want to go etc -- none of those things, snobbishness is apparently the main factor!

MagicMarker

What would you know!? Peasant.

:pac:

stoneill

It's the €3.05 busfare - €6.10 return -
€12.20 for a couple who fancy a bit of shopping in city centre, when you can park your car for 3 hrs for less than a tenner.

samina

Maybe it has nothing to do with the fact that to get my family in and out of town would cost almost 20 quid.

LXFlyer

stoneill wrote: »

It's the €3.05 busfare - €6.10 return -
€12.20 for a couple who fancy a bit of shopping in city centre, when you can park your car for 3 hrs for less than a tenner.

Ah but the fare isn't €3.05 - it's €2.50.

People have to stop thinking in terms of cash fares and be thinking of LEAP.

jasonbourne.cs

people avoid public transports because of the poor service and nothing else .
up until recently I didn't use the bus as its slower than the dart , although now with the decrease in train size/overcrowding and the "leaves on the line" causing continuous delays one is not much better than the other :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

samina wrote: »

Maybe it has nothing to do with the fact that to get my family in and out of town would cost almost 20 quid.

Why not use a family bus rambler on your LEAP card - unlimited travel for 2 adults and up to 4 children for 1 day for €11.50 (€12.65 from Jan).

The main problem I see is that people are unbelievably ignorant of the many cheaper ticket options that are available.

hfallada

Maybe the extremely poor service you get when your are on the bus. Bus drivers thinking that they can be smart whenever they like. The fact new buses have two sets of doors. But they still never open the middle ones.

The fact the bus is extremely expensive is probably the main factor. Rich OAPs from donnybrook have no problem using their bus pass to get a free journey into town. If a million millionaire from donnybrook uses the bus, its not a class issue, it's something much bigger.

But it's always easier for a TD to blame the problem on someone else rather than the actual cause of it.

Dubl07

lxflyer wrote: »

Why not use a family bus rambler on your LEAP card - unlimited travel for 2 adults and up to 4 children for 1 day for €11.50 (€12.65 from Jan).

The main problem I see is that people are unbelievably ignorant of the many cheaper ticket options that are available.

The main problem I see is that the fare structures are a labyrinth and need intensive study to comprehend. Plus the buses can be unsafe. The driver is barricaded inside his compartment to protect his welfare and there is no longer a conductor to safeguard passengers' welfare. It was a cost efficiency on the part of the bus companies that has cost them millions.

Victor

stoneill wrote: »

It's the €3.05 busfare

€2.50 with a Leap Card - you can pay all the fares with one card.

Dubl07

Victor wrote: »

€2.50 with a Leap Card - you can pay all the fares with one card.

But to incentivise people with other options (including online shopping) to use the bus such a differential is insane.

CreepingDeath

Buses are overcrowded too.

I can understand the business reasoning behind trying to pack as many people into the one bus, it's more cost efficient.
But the quality of commuting affects peoples day and their commuting choices.

If there's crowds of people at the bus all elbowing each other to get on the bus to get a seat, with no properly defined queue or you have to stand for 45 minutes on the journey home, it's not an appealing transport choice.

It wouldn't take much of a price hike to make me drive to work.
The service has took a nose dive in the last 3 years.

Take away all the free travel tickets and make everyone pay their way, and the service should improve.

LXFlyer

Dubl07 wrote: »

The main problem I see is that the fare structures are a labyrinth and need intensive study to comprehend. Plus the buses can be unsafe. The driver is barricaded inside his compartment to protect his welfare and there is no longer a conductor to safeguard passengers' welfare. It was a cost efficiency on the part of the bus companies that has cost them millions.

I travel by bus every day and I've never felt unsafe - that frankly is scaremongering.

There is a simple fare calculator on the Dublin Bus website along with a full guide to prepaid tickets.

Getting a LEAP card simplifies it even further.

samina

lxflyer wrote: »

Why not use a family bus rambler on your LEAP card - unlimited travel for 2 adults and up to 4 children for 1 day for €11.50 (€12.65 from Jan).

The main problem I see is that people are unbelievably ignorant of the many cheaper ticket options that are available.

In my case I have late teen kids as well as younger so have to pay 4 adult fares.
But regardless of that even for the ticket you quoted above I can park in town for 2 euro and hour so it still works out cheaper.
Even if I'm popping in in the morning by myself for an hour it's still cheaper to drive

Dubl07

lxflyer wrote: »

I travel by bus every day and I've never felt unsafe - that frankly is scaremongering.

There is a simple fare calculator on the Dublin Bus website along with a full guide to prepaid tickets.

Getting a LEAP card simplifies it even further.

I use the bus very infrequently partly because I have felt unsafe when using it. Your experiences my be different to mine for various reasons but that does not give you the right to dismiss my opinion as scaremongering. Back off.

jack presley

I wonder did Kelly actually ask anyone why they don't use the buses or is his "there is no doubt" statement based on his imagination?

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

The main problem I see is that people are unbelievably ignorant of the many cheaper ticket options that are available.

But whose fault is that?

You almost need to have a degree in public transport to understand Dublin Buses Byzantine fare structure. DB drivers themselves seem to not understand it.

Just do what DB recommends and state your destination. Now do that a few mornings in a row with different drivers and you are likely going to be charged different amounts, for the same journey!

How many years did it take for DB to put a fare calculator on their website!

Public transport needs to be easy to understand and use. That means a simple, transparent, easy to understand fare structure and quick and easy to use buses (use multiple doors, no driver interaction ticketing, etc.)

But I agree, the biggest problem is the relatively high cost of using the bus, versus using a car you already own.

Jawgap

lxflyer wrote: »

Why not use a family bus rambler on your LEAP card - unlimited travel for 2 adults and up to 4 children for 1 day for €11.50 (€12.65 from Jan).

The main problem I see is that people are unbelievably ignorant of the many cheaper ticket options that are available.

ahh......"Dublin Bus - blaming the customer since 1987"

Before I go on to my main point, I have one question for the honourable member from Tipp North - how many journeys on DB are made by government ministers - junior or otherwise - each week?

If people could use the service, but aren't then they need to establish why and address that - isn't that what most companies would do?

I'm an infrequent user of DB, but in a quirk of fate I've taken four trips in the last two days.

The reason I don't use it more often is because it doesn't suit - the services I used to use have been cut or varied to the point where it's no longer convenient to use them. Either services need to be improved or fares need to be cut.

Generally, I find the drivers fine but the odd ar$sehole is encountered just a bit too often (especially, if I'm not a passenger and on the bike instead:))

As regards ignorance of fare options - this is just symptomatic of the idea that the customer is to blame. Even Ryanair have no problem getting the message across about which fares are cheapest.

Tabnabs

lxflyer wrote: »

Ah but the fare isn't €3.05 - it's €2.50.

People have to stop thinking in terms of cash fares and be thinking of LEAP.

I rarely use the bus as I prefer to drive. But if decide to avail of cheaper fares with a leap card, I have to apply online, days in advance, have more credit on the card than the fare will cost (thereby less money in my pocket) and wait for it to arrive by post before I can use it? That's before the phantom bus issues and all the other issues with bus/train use entails.

Can you see why the person who uses the bus or train 1/2/3/4 times a year would just drive?

LXFlyer

Dubl07 wrote: »

I use the bus very infrequently partly because I have felt unsafe when using it. Your experiences my be different to mine for various reasons but that does not give you the right to dismiss my opinion as scaremongering. Back off.

If you have a problem with my post - report it. Please don't resort to this sort of comment.

You made a very generalised comment about buses being unsafe. As someone who has used between 4 and 6 buses per day across the city, I think I can say that, from my experience, in general buses are safe, as I've never had any particular problem. Nor are there frequent newspaper reports of buses being unsafe.

There may have been something specific in your case, but it doesn't mean that in general buses are unsafe.

LXFlyer

Tabnabs wrote: »

I rarely use the bus as I prefer to drive. But if decide to avail of cheaper fares with a leap card, I have to apply online, days in advance, have more credit on the card than the fare will cost (thereby less money in my pocket) and wait for it to arrive by post before I can use it? That's before the phantom bus issues and all the other issues with bus/train use entails.

Can you see why the person who uses the bus or train 1/2/3/4 times a year would just drive?

You can buy a leap card on the spot by walking into any payzone agent and load it up there and then.

No waiting for days at all.

It's this sort of preconception that really needs to be dealt with.

MagicMarker

Dubl07 wrote: »

I use the bus very infrequently partly because I have felt unsafe when using it. Your experiences my be different to mine for various reasons but that does not give you the right to dismiss my opinion as scaremongering. Back off.

Your opinion is scare mongering because buses are completely safe 99.9% of the time.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Ah but the fare isn't €3.05 - it's €2.50.

People have to stop thinking in terms of cash fares and be thinking of LEAP.

Yes, even tourists from abroad and other people who are in Dublin once every year or two.

Please stop trotting the Leap card thing every time fares are mentioned. The fare is €3.05 for the majority of users.

PanaDrama

Far quicker and cheaper for meto use the car.


Quite simply public transport in Ireland is overpriced and substandard.

pwurple

Is this just about dublin bus, or all cities? LEAP cards don't work in any other city.

I go to london and the UK about 4 times a year and have an oyster card. It works bloody everywhere. Bus, rail, underground, everywhere.

There is no card that even works in cork city, is there? Buses in cork are ok a lot of the time, and we do use them, but you can't rely on them for anything important, because the timekeeping is random, and they frequently either don't show up at all, or sail past the bus-stop leaving the potential passengers waiting in the rain. Too unreliable for use for us.

Also, why the fook can't they post times on the bus stops? The stupid red poles have a timetable that show when the bus leaves the end of the line. No map to show how far away that is, no indication how far your stop is from that stop. The ones that have the electronic Bus Will Arrive in x minutes....

9 mins
8 mins
9 mins
7 mins
9 mins
9 mins
10 mins
???? Is the bus reversing?

coolemon

I rarely get the bus anymore because of the price of the fares. I pay in cash and always have done since a child (im 27 now).

I have enough cards for this and for that that I couldnt bother getting a "leap card" - does it need to be topped up, do |I need to purchase credit in a shop, does it get deducted from a bank account? (questions like these I couldnt be bothered researching). Its hassle to apply for, its hassle to go about getting one and reading up on it, and, in general, im just not used to using a card.

The result is that what would be an occasional user of the bus service walks or cycles to town.

I have the cash in my pocket, in change.

Perhaps they could facilitate that fact if they want my custom, rather than fleecing me.

I would prefer to pay in cash. If they dont want it (unless at a rip-off rate), then I wont use the bus.

Simples.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes, even tourists from abroad and other people who are in Dublin once every year or two.

Please stop trotting the Leap card thing every time fares are mentioned. The fare is €3.05 for the majority of users.

I won't stop "trotting it out", because frankly the view espoused above is nonsense.

LEAP e-purse is designed precisely for occasional users, or those travelling shorter distances regularly. You have demonstrated before a complete lack of understanding of that.

The cash fares have been deliberately inflated to try to encourage people to migrate to LEAP, and as such I would suggest that LEAP is now the relevant fare to quote.

Take a trip to London - how many people do not use Oyster?

Cienciano

Everyone that doesn't use the bus have tried it, know its terrible and the alternatives are better. If you live and work on one route its not to bad. But if you dont need to get to the city centre, the bus is useless.
I worked in the city centre before and drove. Occasions where i was going out after work, a taxi was better because the door to door times of the bus was so bad.
Fair enough if it works for you, but in my experience its terrible.

Jawgap

bk wrote: »

.....

How many years did it take for DB to put a fare calculator on their website!

.....

I didn't realise there was a fare calculator until you posted this:D

I went to have a look at it. The first thing you need to know is which route you want to take......


.....so I went to the 'route planner' - WTF!! You type in "oconnell" nothing shows up.....

so I typed in 'O'Connell' and the autofill presented "Berkely Road, O'Connell Avenue" as the first option followed by about 12 stops on O'Connell Street......not very user friendly, especially if you are a tourist from out of town.

Thank fug they added "transit" to Google Maps recently.

LXFlyer

pwurple wrote: »

Is this just about dublin bus, or all cities? LEAP cards don't work in any other city.

I go to london and the UK about 4 times a year and have an oyster card. It works bloody everywhere. Bus, rail, underground, everywhere.

There is no card that even works in cork city, is there? Buses in cork are ok a lot of the time, and we do use them, but you can't rely on them for anything important, because the timekeeping is random, and they frequently either don't show up at all, or sail past the bus-stop leaving the potential passengers waiting in the rain. Too unreliable for use for us.

Also, why the fook can't they post times on the bus stops? The stupid red poles have a timetable that show when the bus leaves the end of the line. No map to show how far away that is, no indication how far your stop is from that stop. The ones that have the electronic Bus Will Arrive in x minutes....

9 mins
8 mins
9 mins
7 mins
9 mins
9 mins
10 mins
???? Is the bus reversing?

LEAP is to be rolled out in Cork in 2014.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

I travel by bus every day and I've never felt unsafe - that frankly is scaremongering.

There is a simple fare calculator on the Dublin Bus website along with a full guide to prepaid tickets.

Getting a LEAP card simplifies it even further.

You don't have to feel unsafe to have your commute ruined by anti social behaviour. Public transport needs a garda presence, having a driver continue blithely on his journey while theres all hell breaking loose upstairs does'nt do much for attracting punters

LXFlyer

coolemon wrote: »

I rarely get the bus anymore because of the price of the fares. I pay in cash and always have done since a child (im 27 now).

I have enough cards for this and for that that I couldnt bother getting a "leap card" - does it need to be topped up, do |I need to purchase credit in a shop, does it get deducted from a bank account? (questions like these I couldnt be bothered researching). Its hassle to apply for, its hassle to go about getting one and reading up on it, and, in general, im just not used to using a card.

The result is that what would be an occasional user of the bus service walks or cycles to town.

I have the cash in my pocket, in change.

Perhaps they could facilitate that fact if they want my custom, rather than fleecing me.

I would prefer to pay in cash. If they dont want it (unless at a rip-off rate), then I wont use the bus.

Simples.

It is your personal choice to not use a very simple product and to pay 15% over the odds in bus fares.

It is no hassle to buy a LEAP card - you simply go into a shop and you can buy one on the spot.

Jawgap

lxflyer wrote: »

LEAP is to be rolled out in Cork in 2014.

.....and in contrast (and in fairness), Oyster (which I have) can only be used in London.

I don't think the UK have the equivalent of LEAP which can be used on a range of public transport services across the whole country.

Emme

Middle-class snobbishness? I don't think so. More like the cash strapped squeezed middle-class can't afford the increasing public transport costs. For those who live near their destination cycling is cheaper and healthier too. For those who live further away carpooling can be cheaper if it's done properly.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

You don't have to feel unsafe to have your commute ruined by anti social behaviour. Public transport needs a garda presence, having a driver continue blithely on his journey while theres all hell breaking loose upstairs does'nt do much for attracting punters

How often does that actually happen?

It certainly is not an every day occurrence.

Grayditch

They should keep putting the prices up. That always makes me want to use the bus more.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

How often does that actually happen?

It certainly is not an every day occurrence.

Its a regular occurrance on the routes i use, the ridiculous fake passes dont help.

coolemon

lxflyer wrote: »

It is your personal choice to not use a very simple product and to pay 15% over the odds in bus fares.

It is no hassle to buy a LEAP card - you simply go into a shop and you can buy one on the spot.

But you see I dont pay 15% over the odds because I dont use it anymore.

At times I have change to get the bus, but if they want to fleece me for choosing to pay with that option then I wont use it.

They are the ones loosing my custom. Walking, cycling, bus - I have no great preference.

You said it yourself that they are inflating the cash payments to get people to switch over. Well im one of those people wo did not switch over, but rather uses alternatives because of the price of cash payments.

A stupid tactic to keep up indefinitly, because I wont be signing up for leap and I wont be returning unless cash fares reduce.

LXFlyer

coolemon wrote: »

But you see I dont pay 15% over the odds because I dont use it anymore.

At times I have change to get the bus, but if they want to fleece me for choosing to pay with that option then I wont use it.

They are the ones loosing my custom. Walking, cycling, bus - I have no great preference.

You said it yourself that they are inflating the cash payments to get people to switch over. Well im one of those people wo did not switch over, but rather uses alternatives because of the price of cash payments.

A stupid tactic to keep up indefinitly, because I wont be signing up for leap and I wont be returning unless cash fares reduce.

That's your personal choice - but if you can't see the wider benefits of getting everyone to switch then, I think the Minister may have a point!

As I said above - take a trip to London and tell me when you come back how many people you see paying with cash.

jack presley

I'm an infrequent user of buses but recently bought a LEAP card for the odd time that I do, instead of the Travel 90 ticket I used to use.

Isn't it annoying though for bus users that even if you top up online you still have to go to a Payzone agent to activate the credit? I was hoping having the card but mean I wouldn't have to queue in shops anymore to get my bus ticket. So even the lauded LEAP ticket isn't a perfect solution

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Its a regular occurrance on the routes i use, the ridiculous fake passes dont help.

I find that somewhat difficult to believe - "all hell breaking loose".

If that were the case, buses would be curtailed.

Jawgap

lxflyer wrote: »

That's your personal choice - but if you can't see the wider benefits of getting everyone to switch then, I think the Minister may have a point!

I think you missed the point - DB in their wisdom thought jacking up the cash price would 'force' people on to LEAP.

Unfortunately, if they had any concept of even first year economics they'd have known about substitution effects - @coolemon, isn't switching he's substituting.

LEAP isn't just competing with cash - it's competing with shoeleather, bicycles, cars, taxis etc

The same way DB are not just competing with other transport providers they're also competing with cars, Netflix, the local Tesco, tele-commuting etc.

LXFlyer

jack presley wrote: »

I'm an infrequent user of buses but recently bought a LEAP card for the odd time that I do, instead of the Travel 90 ticket I used to use.

Isn't it annoying though for bus users that even if you top up online you still have to go to a Payzone agent to activate the credit? I was hoping having the card but mean I wouldn't have to queue in shops anymore to get my bus ticket. So even the lauded LEAP ticket isn't a perfect solution

Well it's the same with Oyster in London as well - the card needs to speak to a live terminal to get the credit loaded onto it.

When the auto top-up feature is rolled out, (which should be in the New Year) that should help.

LXFlyer

Jawgap wrote: »

I think you missed the point - DB in their wisdom thought jacking up the cash price would 'force' people on to LEAP.

Unfortunately, if they had any concept of even first year economics they'd have known about substitution effects - @coolemon, isn't switching he's substituting.

LEAP isn't just competing with cash - it's competing with shoeleather, bicycles, cars, taxis etc

The same way DB are not just competing with other transport providers they're also competing with cars, Netflix, the local Tesco, tele-commuting etc.

I am not missing the point at all. Exactly the same approach was taken in London, in terms of increasing the cash fares significantly over the Oyster fares - now everyone uses Oyster.

hungry hippo 4

if only they'd take the bus pass off all junkies! Those crackheads manage to ruin most bus journeys for people!

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

I find that somewhat difficult to believe - "all hell breaking loose".

If that were the case, buses would be curtailed.

I've seen people threatened to be stabbed if they went down to complain to the driver about smoking, driver just kept on driving

massive shouting matches between junkies driver just keeps on driving

it's pretty regular

Losty Dublin

Jawgap wrote: »

I think you missed the point - DB in their wisdom thought jacking up the cash price would 'force' people on to LEAP.

Unfortunately, if they had any concept of even first year economics they'd have known about substitution effects - @coolemon, isn't switching he's substituting.

LEAP isn't just competing with cash - it's competing with shoeleather, bicycles, cars, taxis etc

The same way DB are not just competing with other transport providers they're also competing with cars, Netflix, the local Tesco, tele-commuting etc.

He hasn't missed the point. If anything, people who abandon public transport rather than not use Leap in lieu of cash are the ones who are missing the point. It is intended to be a cheaper and cashless means of paying fares on public transport and lets be honest, it's no more awkward to use than withdrawing cash from ATM's and breaking notes for fares.

Jawgap

lxflyer wrote: »

I am not missing the point at all. Exactly the same approach was taken in London, in terms of increasing the cash fares significantly over the Oyster fares - now everyone uses Oyster.

Because they can't substitute in the same way!!

Dublin is a fairly small compact city centre surrounded by low density suburbs - owning a car is still a viable option for most people living outside the canals. it would be impossible for most people to live within 10km of the centre of London in a semi-d with a car.

jack presley

lxflyer wrote: »

Well it's the same with Oyster in London as well - the card needs to speak to a live terminal to get the credit loaded onto it.

When the auto top-up feature is rolled out, (which should be in the New Year) that should help.

That'll be good then if it does happen. But if the Oyster doesn't have it yet and has been running for years, how are we going to get it so soon?

pwurple

lxflyer wrote: »

LEAP is to be rolled out in Cork in 2014.

They advertised that well. Oh wait.....

Jawgap

Losty Dublin wrote: »

He hasn't missed the point. If anything, people who abandon public transport rather than not use Leap in lieu of cash are the ones who are missing the point. It is intended to be a cheaper and cashless means of paying fares on public transport and lets be honest, it's no more awkward to use than withdrawing cash from ATM's and breaking notes for fares.

I like LEAP and along with the RTPI I think it's been a brilliant innovation.

But if I'm travelling into the city from, for example, my parents on the north side, I'll use my LEAP card - if I'm taking the kids, I'll take the car!

......and if some people find LEAP a hassle then usually if a company has problem with a product instead of blaming the customer and saying "well, they just don't get it" - they fix product.