The turnaround at Prop

PlayerTrader13

While not getting ahead of ourselves, the new rules combined with emerging talent across the provinces has quickly turned a weakness in irish rugby to a potential strength.

At Loosehead particularly this has become very evident.

While Cian Healy(26) has been a fixture for Ireland for several years now.

Players like Dave Kilcoyne(24), Jack McGrath(24), Denis Buckley(23) and James Cronin(23) have all emerged to various degrees over the last 18 months.

Paddy McAllister(24) remains an intriguing talent in Ulster if he can stay injury free and Callum Black(27) is a solid player too.

Not to mention some talent youngsters in some of the academies across the country players such as: Kyle McCall(21), Niall Horan(20), Ed Byrne(20) and Peter Dooley(19).

At Tighthead the situation is not as bright but still improved.

Mike Ross(33) is likely to continue until the next World Cup.

Behind him Declan Fitzpatrick(30) has showed he is upto standard if he can remain injury free.

Improved performances this season from Stephen Archer(25) hint at a potential future for Ireland.

Martin Moore(22) has emerged this season for Leinster and has shown a lot to get excited about also.

There are some intriguing players in the academies also lead by Tadhg Furlong(21) and Chris Taylor(20).

molloyjh

I've said it before but I'm loathed to consider Archer until he can prove he has sorted out his scrummaging. If he were to come on against England for example I could see him hurting himself badly. He has improved but his tendency to drive forward with his upper body while leaving his feet stationary means he inevitably ends up on his face against even reasonably decent LHs. Against top class operators like Corbisiero he'd get minced. Until he eradicates that from his game I don't think he should be anywhere near an Irish jersey tbh.

PlayerTrader13

molloyjh wrote: »

I've said it before but I'm loathed to consider Archer until he can prove he has sorted out his scrummaging. If he were to come on against England for example I could see him hurting himself badly. He has improved but his tendency to drive forward with his upper body while leaving his feet stationary means he inevitably ends up on his face against even reasonably decent LHs. Against top class operators like Corbisiero he'd get minced. Until he eradicates that from his game I don't think he should be anywhere near an Irish jersey tbh.

while i'd agree to an extent has has certainly showed improvement.. if that continues I think he might be an option down the line..

tolosenc

molloyjh wrote: »

I've said it before but I'm loathed to consider Archer until he can prove he has sorted out his scrummaging. If he were to come on against England for example I could see him hurting himself badly. He has improved but his tendency to drive forward with his upper body while leaving his feet stationary means he inevitably ends up on his face against even reasonably decent LHs. Against top class operators like Corbisiero he'd get minced. Until he eradicates that from his game I don't think he should be anywhere near an Irish jersey tbh.

He was fairly manhandled against a relatively average Australian front row. In my book, if a tighthead can scrummage effectively, he can sit on the floor for the rest of the game if he wants. The scrum is that important.

Archer is woefully short of where he needs to be to be considered for an Ireland spot, and I'd have Moore ahead of him already.

molloyjh

tolosenc wrote: »

He was fairly manhandled against a relatively average Australian front row. In my book, if a tighthead can scrummage effectively, he can sit on the floor for the rest of the game if he wants. The scrum is that important.

Archer is woefully short of where he needs to be to be considered for an Ireland spot, and I'd have Moore ahead of him already.

I'd nearly have Moore ahead of Ross the way the guy is going! If he keeps going as he is I really think he could edge Ross out next season. Or at least share the starting jersey with him a la Reddan and Boss.

molloyjh

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

while i'd agree to an extent has has certainly showed improvement.. if that continues I think he might be an option down the line..

He has def improved, but he still has a way to go before I'd be comfortable seeing him start a HEC game, let alone a 6 Nations one.

PlayerTrader13

To be clear I rate Moore the highest.

Was just saying Archer has at least shown some improvement.

Fireball07

I personally think Archer has adapted to the new rules well enough. He is an average scrummager at the very least now... as in, Munster's scrum doesn't generally suffer with him at TH. He's not as good as Botha, and we don't tend to be dominant with him on but he seems to be capable at Pro12 and HC level now.


It's still hard to say at international level. But, put it like this, he's a lot better now than I thought he'd ever be, I had given up hope.

awec

Its good to see but I think the problem was blown out of all proportion. It came to light, or at least hit the headlines when we brought on a loosehead at tighthead in the days of 22 man squads.

I'm sure if we did the same now with the current crop the result wouldn't be much different.

that said there is clearly a good bit of talent coming through. Healy and McGrath at loosehead. Fitzpatrick, Ross and Moore at TH (and I'd have them in that order).

I don't include Archer because I am yet to be convinced he is good enough. But at least he is there as injury cover.

Aiden7

What are the props like at the U19 level/exile? Who is likely to go into the academy's for next season? There is a lot more depth than what there was 2 years ago, need to get the depth at second row next

its_phil

Aiden7 wrote: »

What are the props like at the U19 level/exile? Who is likely to go into the academy's for next season? There is a lot more depth than what there was 2 years ago, need to get the depth at second row next

There are some good props coming through with Jeremy Loughman, Oisin Heffernan, Saba Merguira, and Jacob Walshe. They are the only 4 that have left an impression on me. I'm not that familiar with Ulster or Munster underage rugby.

Cosmo Kramer

Could there be a role for Nathan White at tighthead this side of the next World Cup? He was comparable to Ross when at Leinster and I don't think his abilities have declined since then. The down side is that he would be 33 by the time he is qualified (next autumn) for Ireland, but be may have something to offer as a replacement or even push Ross for the jersey for a while as I am a little bit concerned that Ross is declining in ability at this stage.

PlayerTrader13

Aiden7 wrote: »

What are the props like at the U19 level/exile? Who is likely to go into the academy's for next season? There is a lot more depth than what there was 2 years ago, need to get the depth at second row next

No exiles of note as of now.

at u20 level the top prospects are :
Peter Dooley(Leinster), Jacob Walshe(Connacht) and Ross Kane(Ulster) at LH
Rory Burke(Munster) and Saba Meunargia(Connacht) at TH

All 5 of those lads are in their respective academies.

at u19 level some names to watch are:
Oisin Heffernan(TH) and Jeremy Loughman(LH) from Leinster.
Mike O'Donnell(TH) from Munster.
Michael Lagan(TH) from Ulster.
Conor Kyne(LH) from Connacht.

Much harder to develop depth at second row..

English Lurker

tolosenc wrote: »

He was fairly manhandled against a relatively average Australian front row. In my book, if a tighthead can scrummage effectively, he can sit on the floor for the rest of the game if he wants. The scrum is that important.

Archer is woefully short of where he needs to be to be considered for an Ireland spot, and I'd have Moore ahead of him already.

I'd disagree. Better a tighthead that can't move than one who can't scrummage, but you're still at a pretty hefty disadvantage with one who can't move. At the very least he's got to his share of rucks and tackles, and make sure he doesn't get isolated out wide. More is greatly preferable. Mike Ross is probably the last player other teams would take from this Irish one.

I've been impressed with the standards of Irish tightheads at the JWC over the last few years, here's hoping that translates into something for you guys soon. I think it could have a really dramatic effect on your fortunes.

Swan Curry

I think Ross' lack of mobility is often exaggerated.By no means is he a mobile tighthead he's more than a lump.He's got pretty good hands,has good vision and runs some smart lines.

.ak

Swan Curry wrote: »

I think Ross' lack of mobility is often exaggerated.By no means is he a mobile tighthead he's more than a lump.He's got pretty good hands,has good vision and runs some smart lines.

Yeah think because of his shape people think he's a bystander except for scrums but he actually gets about the park.

former legend

Swan Curry wrote: »

I think Ross' lack of mobility is often exaggerated.By no means is he a mobile tighthead he's more than a lump.He's got pretty good hands,has good vision and runs some smart lines.

Agreed. People, even sub-consciously, compare him to loose-head props and say "jaysus he's not very mobile". Which is not fair at all.

He is not John Afoa but he is above average for a tight-head.

Buer

Certainly wouldn't say above average. He's not as immobile as many make out but still on the lower end of the scale.

bamboozle

This time next year I would expect to see Moore having wrestled the TH jersey from Ross with Furlong breathing down his neck and Ross looking at a finishing up at Munster for a year or two.

Will be intersting to see if Bent gets much more opportunities this season, maybe during the 6 nations he'll get a run of games.

PlayerTrader13

Bent seems to have moved back to LH.

As a Leinster fan i wouldn't mind seeing him move on, maybe to Ulster who don't have much depth at LH with Court leaving.

blackdog1

bamboozle wrote: »

This time next year I would expect to see Moore having wrestled the TH jersey from Ross with Furlong breathing down his neck and Ross looking at a finishing up at Munster for a year or two.

Will be intersting to see if Bent gets much more opportunities this season, maybe during the 6 nations he'll get a run of games.

Prefer ross to do a Julian white and keep going in some capacity untill 36-37 while at the same time helping out with the youngsters. If moore does take ross's irish spot well neeed 3 th especially if one gets injured . Why should we let munster have him?? Is it any coincidence, that since his arrival all the young props want to scrummage?? Before rosser everyone just wanted mobile props. Timmy ryan , archer etc. You play like your heroes...looking forward to seeing 20 sob in the future ...:)

Woody1997

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

No exiles of note as of now.

at u20 level the top prospects are :
Peter Dooley(Leinster), Jacob Walshe(Connacht) and Ross Kane(Ulster) at LH
Rory Burke(Munster) and Saba Meunargia(Connacht) at TH

All 5 of those lads are in their respective academies.

at u19 level some names to watch are:
Oisin Heffernan(TH) and Jeremy Loughman(LH) from Leinster.
Mike O'Donnell(TH) from Munster.
Michael Lagan(TH) from Ulster.
Conor Kyne(LH) from Connacht.

Much harder to develop depth at second row..

Interestingly enough, loughman has been playing mainly at TH for the Blackrock team this season with Dane Fitzpatrick at loose. I wonder if he has a future there, certainly has the size necessary

PlayerTrader13

Woody1997 wrote: »

Interestingly enough, loughman has been playing mainly at TH for the Blackrock team this season with Dane Fitzpatrick at loose. I wonder if he has a future there, certainly has the size necessary

played mostly LH during the interpros though..

versatility wont hurt him though..

interestingly Heffernan and Loughman both have experience at TH and LH, both look to have serious potential..

Ireland u19 has Heff at TH and Loughman at LH.

PlayerTrader13

Des Merrey(21) is playing in England with Hartpury College R.F.C.

Tomtom364

bamboozle wrote: »

and Ross looking at a finishing up at Munster for a year or two.

I really hope that dosnt happen. Much prefer Munster to concentrate on their young props.

Buer

Tomtom364 wrote: »

I really hope that dosnt happen. Much prefer Munster to concentrate on their young props.

They're well set at loose head but there is still a gap at tight head. Botha has a year left and then will be gone. John Ryan needs a lot more game time if he is going to develop. An Irish stop gap signing for a year or two would not be a surprise to me.

Risteard

Buer wrote: »

They're well set at loose head but there is still a gap at tight head. Botha has a year left and then will be gone. John Ryan needs a lot more game time if he is going to develop. An Irish stop gap signing for a year or two would not be a surprise to me.

A stop gap would just take time away from the likes of John Ryan.

Buer

Risteard wrote: »

A stop gap would just take time away from the likes of John Ryan.

I should have said that it would seem that, given his lack of pitch time, the guy isn't being considered a long term option for the spot. Only 3 starts and 26 next summer doesn't really suggest he's in the shake up although he's young enough to prove otherwise.

If he is considered a real option, he will get a significant number of starts next season but I can see Munster looking to bring in another option when Botha leaves.

Fireball07

Having seen Ryan play a few times, it's still hard to say whether he's good enough. I don't remember him ever struggling as badly as Archer used to... buth then the quality of opposition was probably lower. He seems to be seen as fully ambipropstrous now so he could be useful to keep around.


Penney gets some criticism for not developing some players... but give him credit with Archer. I, and many others, called for him to be discarded and for someone else to give him a shot. Penney obviously saw something, because he persevered and persevered, and eventually Archer came good. He is a reasonable HC option now... and he definitely wasn't close to that before.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

I should have said that it would seem that, given his lack of pitch time, the guy isn't being considered a long term option for the spot. Only 3 starts and 26 next summer doesn't really suggest he's in the shake up although he's young enough to prove otherwise.

If he is considered a real option, he will get a significant number of starts next season but I can see Munster looking to bring in another option when Botha leaves.

would you have said the same about cronin last year within a few months i think hes sticking his hand up for an ireland call.

The Lost Sheep

Konnor Large Marksman wrote: »

would you have said the same about cronin last year within a few months i think hes sticking his hand up for an ireland call.

Difference with Cronin is that he is 22. Very different to J Ryan

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Difference with Cronin is that he is 22. Very different to J Ryan

fair point but ryans only 24/25 thats still pretty young for a prop

PlayerTrader13

Konnor Large Marksman wrote: »

fair point but ryans only 24/25 thats still pretty young for a prop

He is 25, will be 26 next season. "young" for a prop but not that young.

He is only a few months younger than archer but has 45 less appearances than him for Munster.

PlayerTrader13

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Difference with Cronin is that he is 22. Very different to J Ryan

Cronin is actually 23. Him and Kilcoyne should be battling for the next 7 years for the Munster number 1 jersey.

gaius c

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd nearly have Moore ahead of Ross the way the guy is going! If he keeps going as he is I really think he could edge Ross out next season. Or at least share the starting jersey with him a la Reddan and Boss.

That's as much to do with Ross's decline as Moore impressive progress. Ross has become fat & lazy again. Ireland could do with Cheika to whip him back into shape again.

gaius c

gaius c wrote: »

That's as much to do with Ross's decline as Moore impressive progress. Ross has become fat & lazy again. Ireland could do with Cheika to whip him back into shape again.

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I've actually thought in recent weeks, but especially in the NZ game and against Northampton in Franklin's Gardens that Ross' level of ball carrying and defence was amongst the best I've ever seen from him.

I think the new scrummaging rules don't suit him as well as they do some others, but the above statement is just ludicrous.

gaius c

Fireball07 wrote: »

Having seen Ryan play a few times, it's still hard to say whether he's good enough. I don't remember him ever struggling as badly as Archer used to... buth then the quality of opposition was probably lower. He seems to be seen as fully ambipropstrous now so he could be useful to keep around.


Penney gets some criticism for not developing some players... but give him credit with Archer. I, and many others, called for him to be discarded and for someone else to give him a shot. Penney obviously saw something, because he persevered and persevered, and eventually Archer came good. He is a reasonable HC option now... and he definitely wasn't close to that before.

Whatever happened to Cotter who has a big scrummaging rep from AIL?

Risteard

He has a Munster contract and is in the HC squad. Has yet to make a senior 23. Not sure why.

gaius c

Last I heard, fitness was an issue so maybe that's why Ryan is ahead of him.

leakyboots

In defence a bit of Archer, he's vastly improved this season, star is definitely on the rise. Even Healy got his arse handed to him in the early days all part of a prop's development. I'm more comfortable with him at the helm than when Mushy ever was. Did well against Perpignan's monster in Thomond Park a couple of weeks ago. Whether he'll be suitable for Ireland I don't know but he has definitely progressed. Not worth discarding yet with so few options.

For all the talk of him being destroyed against Oz, I don't believe he gave away a penalty, it was McGrath who was penalized, no?

McGrath is a bone fide international, bright future, exciting player. Moore looks good too, need to see more of him.

I really think James Cronin has it too, Peter Clohessy reborn. Kilcoyne looked unstoppable last year but stalled a bit towards the start of this season, finding form again though. The battle between him and Cronin can only be a good thing for Munster.

Definitely think there's cause for optimism at prop.

Funnily enough I think second row is becoming a worry... despite his impressive showing against the ABs, the jury is still out on Toner for me. POC ain't getting any younger, there's a few years left in Donnacha Ryan, DOC could do a Simon Shaw, having a great season and should have gotten a look in in the AIs for me.. but long term he ain't the future. Tuohy is being overlooked.

The second rows at Munster haven't progressed as we'd hoped (Nagle was the great white hope and is facing being let go at the end of this season). I like Dave Foley but hasn't the bulk yet. Billy Holland is a good squad player but not international level I'd have thought. The less said about Leinster's options in the row at the moment the better. Short-term we're okay but I'd really hope someone makes the breakthrough soon. Maybe one of Dave O'Callaghan, Henderson or McLaughlin (?) might make the switch?

molloyjh

leakyboots wrote: »

In defence a bit of Archer, he's vastly improved this season, star is definitely on the rise. Even Healy got his arse handed to him in the early days all part of a prop's development. I'm more comfortable with him at the helm than when Mushy ever was. Did well against Perpignan's monster in Thomond Park a couple of weeks ago. Whether he'll be suitable for Ireland I don't know but he has definitely progressed. Not worth discarding yet with so few options.

For all the talk of him being destroyed against Oz, I don't believe he gave away a penalty, it was McGrath who was penalized, no?

McGrath is a bone fide international, bright future, exciting player. Moore looks good too, need to see more of him.

I really think James Cronin has it too, Peter Clohessy reborn. Kilcoyne looked unstoppable last year but stalled a bit towards the start of this season, finding form again though. The battle between him and Cronin can only be a good thing for Munster.

Definitely think there's cause for optimism at prop.

Funnily enough I think second row is becoming a worry... despite his impressive showing against the ABs, the jury is still out on Toner for me. POC ain't getting any younger, there's a few years left in Donnacha Ryan, DOC could do a Simon Shaw, having a great season and should have gotten a look in in the AIs for me.. but long term he ain't the future. Tuohy is being overlooked.

The second rows at Munster haven't progressed as we'd hoped (Nagle was the great white hope and is facing being let go at the end of this season). I like Dave Foley but hasn't the bulk yet. Billy Holland is a good squad player but not international level I'd have thought. The less said about Leinster's options in the row at the moment the better. Short-term we're okay but I'd really hope someone makes the breakthrough soon. Maybe one of Dave O'Callaghan, Henderson or McLaughlin (?) might make the switch?

I wouldn't write Archer off yet either. His problem is a technique thing which can be fixed, and has obviously been worked on as it hasn't been as prevalent as it was in the last couple of seasons. It is still there though and until it's resolved properly he can't be considered internationally.

I'm not quite as worried about second row myself. POC is around for another couple of years as is DOC (who has been very good this season). Toner is playing very well and improving all the time. This was his second run out against the Kiwis and he didn't look out of place in either game so for me that's a great sign. McCarthy has started to settle at Leinster and hopefully will push on now. Tuohy and Henderson at Ulster are fine players as well, Henderson probably more than that internationally. Add in Ryan and maybe Mick Kearney to that list and it's not so bad.

Tox56

leakyboots wrote: »

In defence a bit of Archer, he's vastly improved this season, star is definitely on the rise. Even Healy got his arse handed to him in the early days all part of a prop's development. I'm more comfortable with him at the helm than when Mushy ever was. Did well against Perpignan's monster in Thomond Park a couple of weeks ago. Whether he'll be suitable for Ireland I don't know but he has definitely progressed. Not worth discarding yet with so few options.

For all the talk of him being destroyed against Oz, I don't believe he gave away a penalty, it was McGrath who was penalized, no?

No idea who gave away what penalty, but in that game he pulled the most incredible contortion of his body I've ever seen on a rugby pitch, there had to be a legitimate concern for his safety if the scrum collapsed at that moment.

He doesn't look to me like an Irish international but he doesn't need to be from Munster's perspective, if he can hold his own in the H cup, even off the bench, he has offered more than most ever thought he would. People talk about Healy's younger days, but he's only a couple of months older than Archer, so this is the time you would expect Archer will be coming into his prime. Depending on what Munster do post-Botha, he could become an interesting precedent for not abandoning players too soon

gaius c

Tox56 wrote: »

No idea who gave away what penalty, but in that game he pulled the most incredible contortion of his body I've ever seen on a rugby pitch, there had to be a legitimate concern for his safety if the scrum collapsed at that moment.

He doesn't look to me like an Irish international but he doesn't need to be from Munster's perspective, if he can hold his own in the H cup, even off the bench, he has offered more than most ever thought he would. People talk about Healy's younger days, but he's only a couple of months older than Archer, so this is the time you would expect Archer will be coming into his prime. Depending on what Munster do post-Botha, he could become an interesting precedent for not abandoning players too soon

Like Toner, if Archer is the answer, we need to re-visit the question. He is just so lacking in the basics of his position that even if he has a few good games, you know it's only a matter of time before he has that nightmare game that makes you watch scrums through your fingers.

The way forward for Ireland is Moore, MacAllister (if the switch to tighthead works out) and Furlong.

jacothelad

gaius c wrote: »

Like Toner, if Archer is the answer, we need to re-visit the question. He is just so lacking in the basics of his position that even if he has a few good games, you know it's only a matter of time before he has that nightmare game that makes you watch scrums through your fingers.

The way forward for Ireland is Moore, MacAllister (if the switch to tighthead works out) and Furlong.

McAllister had abandoned that idea a.f.a.i.k....particularly in the light of Court leaving, something I didn't envisage. His exclusion from the Ireland set-up and future was the catalyst and a three year contract was the icing on the cake. I think at tight head the way forward is with Moore and Sick Note along with Ross and Furlong. Ulster are fecked unless Santa brings us two very good props. McAllister was shaping up pretty well before his injuries but of course he was nowhere near the complete package. His scrummaging was always prone to being a but hit and miss. Macklin has never had a long enough injury free run. Broken leg / ankle and then other injuries have limited his exposure. He looks o.k. in his brief cameos but I fear he isn't the real deal as a prop. He is however a very good player and a brute. If he doesn't make it - and I hope I'm completely wrong - he would make a very good hooker. He is very quick for a huge man and has high skill levels. Shedding a few of those extra prop pounds might make him a very good asset. If not hooker, maybe as a back row player. usually guys go the other direction.

gaius c

jacothelad wrote: »

McAllister had abandoned that idea a.f.a.i.k....particularly in the light of Court leaving, something I didn't envisage. His exclusion from the Ireland set-up and future was the catalyst and a three year contract was the icing on the cake. I think at tight head the way forward is with Moore and Sick Note along with Ross and Furlong. Ulster are fecked unless Santa brings us two very good props. McAllister was shaping up pretty well before his injuries but of course he was nowhere near the complete package. His scrummaging was always prone to being a but hit and miss. Macklin has never had a long enough injury free run. Broken leg / ankle and then other injuries have limited his exposure. He looks o.k. in his brief cameos but I fear he isn't the real deal as a prop. He is however a very good player and a brute. If he doesn't make it - and I hope I'm completely wrong - he would make a very good hooker. He is very quick for a huge man and has high skill levels. Shedding a few of those extra prop pounds might make him a very good asset. If not hooker, maybe as a back row player. usually guys go the other direction.

Haven't seen a lot of Macklin with all the injuries but was impressed enough with Paddy Mac. Fitz has the ability but not the fitness and I'm hearing mixed messages on how much of that is down to attitude.

tolosenc

Just on Archer in the Australia game, here is evidence to support my assertion that he is way short of the mark for international rugby. The Australia front row he was up against is pretty average as they come for top tier international sides, yet here is how he performed in his 5 scrums against them in his 14 minutes on the pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9CNOsNDfnY

1:17:35 - Lost, not badly
1:20:20 - Penalty against Australia TH
1:26:15 - Destroyed, penalty against Archer
1:29:00 - Beaten badly in collapse before actual scrum, destroyed in actual scrum, no penalty (should have been called but wasn't)
1:33:00 - Manhandled, penalty against Archer

The problem is that this kind of performance isn't a one off, it's the norm. Not even nearly good enough. If that was England or France or NZ he'd be at risk of serious injury. While he may be able to manage in the Pro12, he is a liability to Ireland.

Come the RWC, he needs to be behind Ross, Moore, Hagan, Fitzpatrick, Macklin, White and Loughney in the pecking order. All of those have shown themselves to be more competent scrummagers, IMO.

its_phil

Loughney has actually gone back to LH and Ah You back to TH

freyners

its_phil wrote: »

Loughney has actually gone back to LH and Ah You back to TH

The turnaround in form from Ah You has been the surprise of the season for me. Been absolutely rock solid in the scrum and is actually starting to be dominant. Pretty good in the loose as well

blackdog1

tolosenc wrote: »

Just on Archer in the Australia game, here is evidence to support my assertion that he is way short of the mark for international rugby. The Australia front row he was up against is pretty average as they come for top tier international sides, yet here is how he performed in his 5 scrums against them in his 14 minutes on the pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9CNOsNDfnY

1:17:35 - Lost, not badly
1:20:20 - Penalty against Australia TH
1:26:15 - Destroyed, penalty against Archer
1:29:00 - Beaten badly in collapse before actual scrum, destroyed in actual scrum, no penalty (should have been called but wasn't)
1:33:00 - Manhandled, penalty against Archer

The problem is that this kind of performance isn't a one off, it's the norm. Not even nearly good enough. If that was England or France or NZ he'd be at risk of serious injury. While he may be able to manage in the Pro12, he is a liability to Ireland.

Come the RWC, he needs to be behind Ross, Moore, Hagan, Fitzpatrick, Macklin, White and Loughney in the pecking order. All of those have shown themselves to be more competent scrummagers, IMO.

Don't rate archer myself but your being a bit harsh imo. He holds his own at hec lvl most times. International is a big step up. Would rate him higher than loughney and hagan ( hagan gone backwards big time). Don't know much about macklin. Would agree about the rest though.

Tobyglen

tolosenc wrote: »

Just on Archer in the Australia game, here is evidence to support my assertion that he is way short of the mark for international rugby. The Australia front row he was up against is pretty average as they come for top tier international sides, yet here is how he performed in his 5 scrums against them in his 14 minutes on the pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9CNOsNDfnY

1:17:35 - Lost, not badly
1:20:20 - Penalty against Australia TH
1:26:15 - Destroyed, penalty against Archer
1:29:00 - Beaten badly in collapse before actual scrum, destroyed in actual scrum, no penalty (should have been called but wasn't)
1:33:00 - Manhandled, penalty against Archer

The problem is that this kind of performance isn't a one off, it's the norm. Not even nearly good enough. If that was England or France or NZ he'd be at risk of serious injury. While he may be able to manage in the Pro12, he is a liability to Ireland.

Come the RWC, he needs to be behind Ross, Moore, Hagan, Fitzpatrick, Macklin, White and Loughney in the pecking order. All of those have shown themselves to be more competent scrummagers, IMO.

Clueless, 1.26 was pen against McGrath, McGrath got destroyed in each of those scrums. Why no reference to him?
What have Moore, Mackin, White, Loughney, Hagan done at international level? I'm embarrassed for you.
You should take a look at how Munster's scrum has dismantled Leinster's scrum in October and pretty much beaten every scrum this season thus far. Archer has been an integral part of that. The Step up to international is huge and will take time, I remember Cian Healy getting battered by Oz scrum a few years back, it's a learning process and it's a steep curve that can only happen by playing the best teams.

Archer will be a viable option in 18 months, TH is toughest position in the park to play. Hayes till 26 to be a half decent scrummager, Ross till his late 20's but I guess for bandwagoners memories are short.

blackdog1

Tobyglen wrote: »

Clueless, 1.26 was pen against McGrath, McGrath got destroyed in each of those scrums. Why no reference to him?
What have Moore, Mackin, White, Loughney, Hagan done at international level? I'm embarrassed for you.
You should take a look at how Munster's scrum has dismantled Leinster's scrum in October and pretty much beaten every scrum this season thus far. Archer has been an integral part of that. The Step up to international is huge and will take time, I remember Cian Healy getting battered by Oz scrum a few years back, it's a learning process and it's a steep curve that can only happen by playing the best teams.

Archer will be a viable option in 18 months, TH is toughest position in the park to play. Hayes till 26 to be a half decent scrummager, Ross till his late 20's but I guess for bandwagoners memories are short.

Ross was mincing people in ail for years was always a rough diamond, deano and schmidt just polished him up. Archer is ok as I said but international is another step completely. Problem is there is none better coming up in munster so no reason why he should be pitched aside. Moore to me is a natural scrummager, looks to take serious pride in it. I also like furlong. Munster made a big mistake not signing white. Hes irish qualified next year too.
I still think killer is better than cronin for the simple reason he hasn't really been analyzed yet. Measure of a prop is when people figure out how to attack them how quick they adapt.