Pure in heart abstinence only education

Brian Shanahan

A catholic abstinence only "education" group Pure in Heart were featured in yesterday's Sunday Times, (page 4 article title Teens told to pick chastity not sexy stars, byline Gabrielle Monaghan) boasting that they visited 55 schools to talk about their woo (I'm not paying subscription just to link to the article). While the article seems mostly there to print a big photo of Miley Cyrus in her underwear, they did mention the NUIG Legion of Mary case and were good enough to quote a student who attended one of the sessions:

Sinead Doyle in the article wrote:

They didn't say anything about the benefits of contraception or give us a chance to speak. They were talking about what qualities we should look for in a boyfriend and got us into groups to talk about. I asked "what about the qualities of a girlfriend?" [my interjection: sounds like Sinead may be referencing lesbian relationships here, which the crowd seem to have missed] The [response was] "we're just talking about boyfriends today". They said you should wait until you get married before having sex. So I asked "what if you are gay and can't get married?" There was no response

On looking for their website I found this. It's not very inspiring that a group wanting to influence (read: brainwash) the yoof of Ireland can't even manage a proper website, but that's a different matter. The best thing I found about them is this short article from the Diocese of Westminster website, which is basically just propoganda.

Now I fully agree the best way not to get pregnant or get STIs is to not have sex. But, and this is a giant but writ in neon flashing letters, abstinence only programmes are some of the most pernicious woo out there peddled by fundie christians, due to the fact that for humans the main sexual drive is pleasure, not procreation (a trait we share with quite a lot of our primate cousins and other social animals).

Teaching young teens about sex, why it is a good idea to use contraception if you are having sex, why testing is also a good idea, to respect other's wishes (i.e. if they say "no" you say "ok, how about something else fun then?") and all the other stuff necessary for a group of young people on the cusp of adulthood in order that they have a balanced attitude towards themselves, their bodies and others.

Cabaal

and as we know, abstinence means you can still use gods loop hole

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbaqlcmDCA

Be a good question to ask them :pac:

PopePalpatine

They came to NUI Maynooth about a week-and-a-half ago, the "highlight" of their leaflet was saying that "the way I dress may be a temptation to my boyfriend".

Utter pricks.

Cabaal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

They came to NUI Maynooth about a week-and-a-half ago, the "highlight" of their leaflet was saying that "the way I dress may be a temptation to my boyfriend".

Utter pricks.

what about the way a man dresses being a temptation to his girlfriend, or is it just the fault of those dirrrttty women all the time?

PopePalpatine

Cabaal wrote: »

what about the way a man dresses being a temptation to his girlfriend, or is it just the fault of those dirrrttty women all the time?

Yeah, I had a look at those leaflets, what I inferred is that traditional view that teh wimminz must be incubators and sex must be purely for procreation and utterly joyless for the woman.

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

what about the way a man dresses being a temptation to his girlfriend [...]

I have one word to add to this debate:

"Speedos"

Beruthiel

Cabaal wrote: »

what about the way a man dresses being a temptation to his girlfriend, or is it just the fault of those dirrrttty women all the time?

Tight jeans and the top three buttons provocatively open on the shirt.
*wink, wink*

Sarky

You minx, you.

Sierra 117

Teaching teens not have sex before marriage seems really dumb to me. The sex life of a relationship is something you'd need to experience before making a life-long commitment, in my opinion.

gctest50

RaspberryPi's are useful for this carry on

~# whois pureinheartireland.com
Admin Organization: Pure in Heart
Admin Street: 23 Merrion Square

The Iona Institute
23 Merrion Square, Dublin 2

Excess number of reprobates per address detected :

Brian Shanahan

Nice one gctest. That's a very good catch to show who's behind them.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

I have one word to add to this debate:

"Speedos"

Trendy nonsense. The y-front is the look they can't resist.

gaynorvader

Nodin wrote: »

Trendy nonsense. The y-front is the look they can't resist.

Speedos? y-fronts? Are these those new fangled "underpants" I've been hearing so much about?

legspin

Cabaal wrote: »

and as we know, abstinence means you can still use gods loop hole

NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbaqlcmDCA

Be a good question to ask them :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fKazA3j6xo

Galvasean

So, how many 'independent organisations' are coming out of IONA Tower now?

lazygal

http://timewarpwife.com/?p=115

I'll just leave this here.

PopePalpatine

*clicks link*
Damn, I was hoping for a Poe.

lazygal

Also, not just purity, but radiant purity!
http://brothersandsisters.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=54

expectationlost

i always wonder how these groups are allowed into schools, there must be so many groups good and bad i wonder if any should be allowed present to the kidss, but I guess the school teacher and principals must agree to with it to some extent

lazygal

The vast majority of schools in Ireland are Christian run. No pre wedding sexytime is in the rules.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

Also, not just purity, but radiant purity!
http://brothersandsisters.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=54

As recommended by no less a public intellectual than Ray Comfort!

http://brothersandsisters.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=120

Ye gods.

Cabaal

expectationlost wrote: »

i always wonder how these groups are allowed into schools, there must be so many groups good and bad i wonder if any should be allowed present to the kidss, but I guess the school teacher and principals must agree to with it to some extent

Even if they don't agree the catholic church still get free access to most schools in Ireland,

expectationlost

Cabaal wrote: »

Even if they don't agree the catholic church still get free access to most schools in Ireland,

these abstinence people aren't the catholic church

nagirrac

That awkward moment when Irish parents are confronted by their smartass child who has just done the math and realized they were born too soon for things to add up properly.

"But we were going to get married anyway". Right.

"We only did it the once". Collapses laughing.

Pherekydes

nagirrac wrote: »

That awkward moment when Irish parents are confronted by their smartass child who has just done the math and realized they were born too soon for things to add up properly.

"But we were going to get married anyway". Right.

"We only did it the once". Collapses laughing.

Our kids don't have to do the maths. They were at our wedding. :pac:

Brian Shanahan

expectationlost wrote: »

these abstinence people aren't the catholic church

They are, they're run out of the same office as the Iona institute for the promulgation of stale bull****.

catallus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

They are, they're run out of the same office as the Iona institute for the promulgation of stale bull****.

So you conflate the ideas that this organisation has with the ideas of the catholic church, and then decide that there is no difference between the two because "They're run out of the same...."

Nice one. (Sic)

PopePalpatine

What part of this did you ignore, catallus?

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

On looking for their website I found this. It's not very inspiring that a group wanting to influence (read: brainwash) the yoof of Ireland can't even manage a proper website, but that's a different matter. The best thing I found about them is this short article from the Diocese of Westminster website, which is basically just propoganda.

catallus

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What part of this did you ignore, catallus?

I read every single word of the short article. There is not an iota of substance to the poster's assertions.

It is a sad case of conflation by the poster who linked the article.

PopePalpatine

I think Brian's right to conflate Pure In Heart with the I-moan-a Institute, given that they share premises and the same traditionalist Catholic ideology.

catallus

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I think Brian's right to conflate Pure In Heart with the I-moan-a Institute, given that they share premises and the same traditionalist Catholic ideology.

Perhaps that's totally correct, I agree on the face of it.

But my point is that he decides to turn that argument into an argument against catholicism generally.

I don't know precisely what the rules against gross generalisation are on this forum. Obviously different from other ones.

JRant

Before you know it they'll be coming out with ridiculous ideas like cotis interuptis next. Oh wait ........

Sulla Felix

catallus wrote: »

Perhaps that's totally correct, I agree on the face of it.

But my point is that he decides to turn that argument into an argument against catholicism generally.

I don't know precisely what the rules against gross generalisation are on this forum. Obviously different from other ones.

You're right of course. On the balance of things, Iona and Pure in Heart are probably better than the Church so we're doing them an injustice.
They agree with a lot of the moral teachings, true, but I think even the inhabitants of 23 Merrion Sq wouldn't countenance and coverup the large scale sexual abuse of children.

To everyone else, come on, I thought better of you than this.

catallus

^^^^^^

If you base your criticism of anything on such a myopic and insular attitude then I sympathise. It must be tough being so narrow-minded.

Brian Shanahan

catallus wrote: »

So you conflate the ideas that this organisation has with the ideas of the catholic church, and then decide that there is no difference between the two because "They're run out of the same...."

Nice one. (Sic)

I suppose like with your mislabelling of "intolerance" you're going to come out with some really weird and unjustifiable meaning of "not connected" now, just to try and justify your stance of "yeah, I agree with them completely, but nobody can say I agree with them, because me being seen to be in agreement with this shower makes me look bad" which you seem to be taking on every issue you post here.

I have you pegged catallus [sic].

catallus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I suppose like with your mislabelling of "intolerance" you're going to come out with some really weird and unjustifiable meaning of "not connected" now, just to try and justify your stance of "yeah, I agree with them completely, but nobody can say I agree with them, because me being seen to be in agreement with this shower makes me look bad" which you seem to be taking on every issue you post here.

I have you pegged catallus [sic].

You have nothing "pegged" Brian. You barely understand yourself, let alone anything else. You are so transparent it is laughable.

All you have is your second rate word-play, which is disingenuous at best, hatefully discriminatory at worst, and your sad hatred for modern culture.

And your trivial criticism of the real world situation is pitiable. Really, if you are going to project so amateurishly then you are better off confining it to your own feeble mind. Not likely, given the group-think situation going on in this sub-forum. Hey, maybe it is a win-win, after all.

EDIT: oh, btw: for all of the above: sic

robindch

^^^ catallus has been carded for incivility.

expectationlost

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

They are

no they are not. the Iona Institute is not the catholic church.

Nodin

expectationlost wrote: »

no they are not. the Iona Institute is not the catholic church.

That's true. However they are preaching Church doctrine, last I knew.

SmilingLurker

Having legally separate entities espousing your ideas which you can distance your organization from is a great idea. You get all the benefit, none of the hassle, you are not liable for debts or court judgements.

We need laws to control separate legal organizations which have a single point of control to prevent lack of legal recourse. It would be useful in a few criminal cases.

MetalDog

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/11/30/uga-study-higher-pregnancy-rates-in-states-with-abstinence-only-ed-programs-in-schools/


UGA study: Higher pregnancy and birth rates in states with abstinence-only sex ed programs in schools.

“This clearly shows that prescribed abstinence-only education in public schools does not lead to abstinent behavior,” said David Hall, second author and assistant professor of genetics in the Franklin College. “It may even contribute to the high teen pregnancy rates in the U.S. compared to other industrialized countries.”



Who ya gonna call?

expectationlost

Nodin wrote: »

That's true. However they are preaching Church doctrine, last I knew.

they are teaching their own doctrine, only the church can say what is church doctrine

Nodin

expectationlost wrote: »

they are teaching their own doctrine, only the church can say waht is church doctrine

So what are they saying that goes against Church teaching?

TwoShedsJackson

robindch wrote: »

I have one word to add to this debate:

"Speedos"

I believe 'budgie smugglers' is the correct term these days.

Brian Shanahan

expectationlost wrote: »

no they are not. the Iona Institute is not the catholic church.

They are part of it, one of its more vocal mouthpieces, just like Opus dei or the legion of Mary.

expectationlost

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

They are part of it, one of its more vocal mouthpieces, just like Opus dei or the legion of Mary.

the Iona Institute is not part of the Catholic Church, can we just be real for a second rather reply with glib replies.

lazygal

expectationlost wrote: »

the Iona Institute is not part of the Catholic Church, can we just be real for a second rather reply with glib replies.

Do you have proof of that? All the patrons are Catholic, its values sound remarkably similar to Catholic teachings and the website is constantly referencing the Catholic church.

Like, say, this piece: http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=3351

Nodin

expectationlost wrote: »

the Iona Institute is not part of the Catholic Church, can we just be real for a second rather reply with glib replies.

It may not be part of official structure, but it espouses church doctrine. If there is something the say that isn't church doctrine, do please point it out.

expectationlost

Nodin wrote: »

It may not be part of official structure, but it espouses church doctrine. If there is something the say that isn't church doctrine, do please point it out.

only the church can say what is and isn't church doctrine

Nodin

expectationlost wrote: »

only the church can say what is and isn't church doctrine

What they teach is the same as church doctrine. Were they not in tune with catholic teaching, they'd be disowned by the church. I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you're trying to be slippery on this. They clearly preach catholic sexual ethics, as laid down by the Church.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

They clearly preach catholic sexual ethics, as laid down by the Church.

"Laid" is possibly the wrong word to use in that context.