Match Thread HEC: Northampton Saints v Leinster 7/12/13 18:00 Live SS

errlloyd · 06-12-2013 4:57pm #1

Right this is my first time go easy on me. There is some mild humour in it, mods if you have any problems feel free to edit.

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When the Saints meet Molly

72,000 people witnessed history when these two teams last met in a competitive fixture, for some of us it was the good kind of history, Berlin Wall coming down, Hussein getting toppled, moon landing type stuff. For Saints fans it was the bad kind of history. The real dark day doom and gloom stuff. I imagine to some of them, losing that final didn't feel too dissimilar to Ireland's recent much talked about All Blacks loss.

CDF_BE_Leinster_V_Northampton19.jpg?1306004509

CDF_BE_Leinster_V_Northampton19.jpg?1306004509

That said 2011 was years ago, and form in rugby is as dependable as Irish weather. The Leinster team of 2011 has lost some of stars including the credited "comeback king" Jonny Sexton and try scorer Nathan Hines. The Northampton team too has lost some of it's much feared "grunt" with Mujati and Tonga'uiha joining Sexton at Racing, but they have recruited strongly. They completed a soccer style "in contract" capture of Welsh Lions Hero George North along with a sneaky pick up of highly rated Samoan Captain Kahn Fotuali'i - a man who knows all about beating Leinster teams. With rumours linking Lions Captain Sam Warburton to the squad you can see there is obvious money and ambition behind backing this Northampton team.

So how do the teams stack up?

Leinster

Leinster have gone with an all Irish capped international team presenting an awesome opportunity for Joe Schmidt to witness Irish players playing together in a test quality match. The team contains no less than 7 touring British and Irish Lions (from 05, 09, 13), two former winners of European Player of the year, 20 tier one capped internationals and winners of multiple other awards and statistics which are all generally fancy opportunities for me to make the exact same point - its a strong team.

Had I seen this front row in September I probably would have said "well it picks itself doesn't it", but the meteoric rise of Martin Moore and Jack McGrath have really changed all that. While I still think Church and Ross pip to them to the 1 and 3 shirts respectively I am not concerned for what happens on 55-60 minutes when the young lads come in and go wild. Sean Cronin "THE BARBARIAN" (as I scream at my tv anytime he gets the ball, for some reason...) starts at hooker, his darts improved over the Autumn and he's throwing to largely the same lifting pod and lock combinations so hopefully that will continue. According to the lovely people over at ESPN stats he ran the most yards bar Kearney (of the Rob variety) against New Zealand, so we all know what he'll do in the loose. Aaron Dundon is not the best hooker in the Northern Hemisphere, but he is a good honest squad player and I'm reasonably happy he's getting his chance and I don't really think he's going to let us down.

The Key to the Locks this week seems to be power. Mike McCarthy and big Dev get the call ahead of squad captain Leo Cullen. Manoa and Lawes are massive units so I imagine its a question of enforcing. Leinster aren't a team lacking leadership so the loss of Leo shouldn't harm us too much, I imagine that perhaps he will be sitting with the young props on the bench talking them through what they need to do when they come on and bringing a fresh change of emphasis when he springs himself.

RTE helpfully tells us that Rhys Ruddock will win his 69th cap, which is apparently a big milestone. 69 appearances have been few and far between for the 6"3, 111kg Ruddock who often finds them impractical. Nonetheless his cap is a big deal, it pushes another Leinster leadership legend Shane Jennings onto the bench and 2011 H/Cup final starter and victim of the recent All Blacks snipe Kevin McLaughlin out of the squad completely. Locky must be livid, last time he played Northampton he lost 22-6. O'Brien and Heaslip combine again to make this backrow positively massive, the ERC thought about re-scheduling the match so their gravitational pull doesn't put the moon off balance.

Half-backs are interesting. Joe Schmidt is a funny man, in casual conversation he doesn't talk about rugby, he far prefers discussing horse racing. I don't know if that's where the "horses for courses" attitude he had came from, but it was always his style to start the more "game management types" away, and the more "let's do it French style" guys at home. In any case, who I am to second guess a coach who consistently rinsed these guys when leading Leicster. Redzer and Madigan start fresh from putting in short Autumn shifts in green. Men and Women better than I have debated Madigan v Gopperth all year, all I'll say is that 6 months ago I felt this young lad could have been a lion while his form has dropped and Gopperth has been good, I think Madigan has an awful lot of potential left to fulfil. Tokenistic media like hype generation: A strong Sexton '11 like performance from Madigan might be a great way for him to step out of the shadow.

Centres. This centre combination is TOTES AMAZEBALLS!

3 Quarters. We've waited and waited and waited for Luke to come back. Some said it would never happen. Some wanted him in the centre. Some thought that even if he did come back he'd have lost it. He is back, he's on the wing, and now its time to see how he goes. I for one hope he is still sporting his horrific movember moustache, it was so unbelievably terrible that I am upset I only saw it for a few minutes in the Aviva. His real cameo against NZ was a good rucking turnover at a key moment in the match. The Kearney brothers join him having both scored for Ireland last month. Rob Kearney was pumped up like a Sky Diving wrestler taking Adrenaline shots through his eyeballs against NZ and I for one loved it. It is perhaps the first time in a long time he has true competition for the 15 berth from someone who can't just shift to to the wing and I am interested to see what Sideshow Bob might be able to bring from the bench.

Saints

Now for the step into the unknown, based on a solid hour of research and what I can remember from Saints v Ospreys I'll do my best. We are probably reasonably lucky that Alex Corbisiero is injured and replaced by Saints academy product Alex Waller, he's been knocking around the senior team for a little while but a news search only reveals that he stupidly punched a Glasgow player in last year's H/Cup loss. Really a Northampton player in an punch up, well I never. Salesi Ma'afu is an internationally capped tier one Loosehead, he's played against Ireland (for Australia who I guess are famous for having a tight five like a wet paper bag) before and made a bunch of super rugby appearances for the Force and the Brumbies. Dylan Hartley is a polarising figure, he's aggressive, he's gritty, but he's bloody (no pun intended) talented and they do love him over at Saints. Their bench is a little sparse, according to Wiki Haywood had a few good seasons with Notre Dame in the eighties, Mercey has a handful of Saxons caps and Ethan Waller isn't notable enough for his own page. Bleak.

Second row is the real force of this Northampton team. Any 2 of Lawes, Day, and Manoa could started without really weakening the team. In round two against Ospreys Day and Lawes were pretty much jointly awarded man of the match by Sky Sports for putting on a virtuoso tackling, rucking and line out display. Lawes made a Heaslip level of tackles against New Zealand in the Autumn and I think he's the right kind of aggressive and determined.

The backrow is powerful too. Many England fans felt Tom Wood should keep the captaincy after a strong tour of Argentina with Robshaw taking the summer off. Phil Dowson scored a try against Leinster really early in the 2011 final. Sam Dickinson is a strange number 8 option, wiki lists him as a Flanker or Lock and worryingly from their point of view he made his Northampton in September Debut 18 months after signing from Rotherham. He has taken the road less travelled, he only became semi professional aged 24. On the bench they have Callum Clark who is a fine rugby player, if by fine you mean skilled, in terms of discipline he's not fine. In Leicster they have a nursery rhyme. "Stick and stones will break your bones, and... so will Callum Clark".

Lee Dickson has been starting all year against the mysteriously absent and possibly injured Kahn Fotuali'i. As a Leinster fan I am probably happy Kahn isn't playing, because I think he's absolutely class. As a rugby fan I am probably annoyed Kahn isn't playing for roughly the same reason. Ryan Glynn is understudy, he's a 22 year old Academy graduate who spent much of last season dual registered with Mose in the championship and B&I cup. Not much to report unfortunately. Stephen Myler isn't really a man to be feared at outhalf, he can do a job and we should expect as much but when you take into account that Kahn was potentially signed as an outhalf you can see that even Northampton don't have a huge amount of faith in him or in 27 year old Kiwi Glenn Dickson on the bench.

George Pisi got banned for tip tackling Tommy Bowe in November so Luther Burrell and Dom Waldouck get a chance at centre. Burrell is a traditional bosh merchant very much in the frame of James Downey who he has come to replace. The English press are hailing his form this season and apparently with good reason. He got called up for Englands tour of Argentina after injuries and lions absentees made space, but he is still yet to be capped by Lancaster. Waldouck is a much more BOD, Darcy mould centre, less than 6 foot less than 100 kg probably a little bit of skill. He has been desperately unlucky with injury and probably should be England capped by now in fair world. They aren't a weak pairing and I think both will have a real hunger tomorrow.

Finally in the three quarters we have George "not afraid to pick you up and wear you like a backpack" North, Ken Pisi and James Wilson. Ahhhh you ask, who the **** is James Wilson? Well according to the Northampton Wiki he's a centre, according to his Wiki he's a 10 and according to Leinster players he's Ben Foden. From what I gather he's probably not someone to fear - he has scored 3 tries including one against Quins, he's got a booming boot and a championship winning drop goal to his name from his time in the Southern Hemisphere but he's no Ben Foden... I think. Jamie Elliot has scored 22 tries in around 50 appearances for Saints, he's on the bench and he's no slouch. He's only 21 and can slip into centre or wing, so I expect to see him at some stage late in the game

Conclusions.

Northampton obviously want to do well in this competition. They are a team who have been very strong in the last 3 years and they're still improving. They made a premiership final last year by beating league winners Saracens in Plastic Park and they're probably still hurting from 2011. With no H/Cup next season it will either motivate the players to go for it as it's their last chance, or it'll say "well if our club doesn't care why should we" maybe that mentality will make the difference?

Leinster are in good form, and Leinster players are in good form. We're also in very good health. I think Ferg and Strauss are the only two injuries we really have at the moment - no shocker that Lote's time as a joker wasn't extended. Leinster are hungry after going out early last year and they know an away win here will go a long way to making them safe. I am gonna see blue and pip them to win by about 10.

As much as I threw some digs at the players I do like Saint's fans and the club in general. I hope everyone going over has a safe and fun weekend, and more than anything I am looking forward to the rugby.

*Tables are generally robbed from other match threads, Pics from the ERC Website and screen dumps from Wiki and RTE.

Fireball07 · 06-12-2013 5:00pm

Not bad, quite an enjoyable read :P

Tables + crests + pictures + humour = a good preview.

durkadurka · 06-12-2013 5:19pm

entertaining read.

Would you mind amending the thread title to put NH first as they are at home?

I'm feeling pretty positive about the game and I think we need a result now, because Ospreys have given up, which means that Castres will rack up some points and still be in it, come rounds 5 and 6.

Most of this team basically did a job on NZ 2 weeks ago so we should be good enough. We certainly have them in the backs.

errlloyd · 06-12-2013 5:23pm

durkadurka wrote: »

Would you mind amending the thread title to put NH first as they are at home?

I know this sounds incredibly stupid, but I always find spotting match threads in the board difficult when the Irish province is the away team

which is why I switched that around. But sure I will change it. Edit: As it happens I can't, mods will have to.

former legend · 06-12-2013 5:31pm

Got a good laugh out of that preview, good work.

Just on something you said about Wilson at full back, the NH fans seem to really rate him so he's worth watching.

Key for Leinster tomorrow is defensive line speed, getting up quickly and not letting NH knock them back in the tackle. We saw it against Clermont in the Aviva; very few tackles missed but their big runners made yards every time. NH have players who can do likewise.

[Jackass] · 06-12-2013 5:36pm

Very very good errlloyd, thanks. Once again recreational sports fans on boards.ie put professional national "journalists" to shame. I expect to see substantial copy and paste of opinions, facts and figures in the morning papers.

errlloyd · 06-12-2013 5:38pm

former legend wrote: »

Got a good laugh out of that preview, good work.

Just on something you said about Wilson at full back, the NH fans seem to really rate him so he's worth watching.

Thanks

I just took a better look at some of their boards and apparently he was injured in training before their match last week, Elliot has a knock too which might explain him being on the bench. They certainly seem to have been fairly worn recently.

molloyjh · 06-12-2013 5:51pm

durkadurka wrote: »

I'm feeling pretty positive about the game and I think we need a result now, because Ospreys have given up, which means that Castres will rack up some points and still be in it, come rounds 5 and 6.

Most of this team basically did a job on NZ 2 weeks ago so we should be good enough. We certainly have them in the backs.

Yeah I'm in the cautiously optimistic zone right now. This side can do the job. Get at least parity up front and we have the better back line overall, plus our bench is a good deal better. The whole game will depend on that; the packs.

If we win these 2 games we knock Saints out and can afford to slip up in Castres with a home draw against Ospreys remaining. Still I'd hope the Ospreys would remain competitive, at least at home next week. If they can prevent Castres from getting a TBP win this week and sneak a win next week that would be great. It would put Castres on a max of 9 points. If we get the LBP tomorrow and the win next week we'll get up to 13. A LBP in Castres (and preventing them getting the TBP) will leave us 1 point clear going into the final round where Castres are away to Saints and we're home to Ospreys.

Obviously though I'd like it all wrapped up and in the bag before then....

Swiwi. · 06-12-2013 6:41pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Right this is my first time go easy on me. There is some mild humour in it, mods if you have any problems feel free to edit.

Great stuff! Always good to read a virgin preview. I don't recognise those Kiwis in the NH squad...so that means they played ITM cup for a non-leading light at best. Not to be feared in other words. I reckon Leinster can win this one, DK needs to shut down North, and someone needs to make that yappy Rotorua lad shut up!

[Jackass] · 06-12-2013 6:46pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Great stuff! Always good to read a virgin preview. I don't recognise those Kiwis in the NH squad...so that means they played ITM cup for a non-leading light at best. Not to be feared in other words. I reckon Leinster can win this one, DK needs to shut down North, and someone needs to make that yappy Rotorua lad shut up!

Well he did a very good job at making Cory Jane have a very quiet night, so I have every confidence he can shut down North, even if it means he has a quiet attacking game himself in the process.

Swiwi. · 06-12-2013 6:50pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Well he did a very good job at making Cory Jane have a very quiet night, so I have every confidence he can shut down North, even if it means he has a quiet attacking game himself in the process.

Not denying it, he impressed me against NZ where he exceeded my expectations. I'd say Kirchner's a bit dark about not starting after being a bit of a perennial bench option (or not at all) for SA, I'd say he'd fancy himself a Leinster first XV candidate. So it's up to DK (and RK for that matter) to keep .ak Zane riding the pine.

TheGoldenAges · 07-12-2013 11:51am

Great write up errlloyd, I'd personally be happy with a losing bonus point in this match but we should have the quality to win.

Big game for Matt O'Connor all the same. Huge call putting Mads over Gopperth (One I agree with) although I would have selected Boss beside him. I'd probably have put Kirchner in over DK as well. Just think the Springbok ooses class and would have been mouth watering to have seen him up against George North. Although maybe MOC is saving that for next week when I'm in attendance :pac:

molloyjh · 07-12-2013 4:22pm

Eh lads Healy is here in Kielys on crutches....

Buer · 07-12-2013 4:25pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Eh lads Healy is here in Kielys on crutches....

Was rumoured earlier on LF. McGrath starting and Bent to bench.

molloyjh · 07-12-2013 4:29pm

Buer wrote: »

Was rumoured earlier on LF. McGrath starting and Bent to bench.

That changes things. McGrath is good but he's not as powerful a carrier as Healy and Bent doesn't have the impact off the bench.....

Glass Prison 1214 · 07-12-2013 4:31pm

That's a massive blow, having both Healy and McGrath in the squad would have been huge.

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 4:49pm

Well bollix anyway. Bent, Dundon, Moore doesn't have the same ring to it. At least it's Maafu though, not a hugely destructive scrummager. Hope Jack is up for 80.

If Healy on crutches, unlikely to be back for next week?

Momentum swings a little bit.

shuffol · 07-12-2013 4:56pm

If Healys out for both games it will be interesting to see how McGrath takes his opportunity, he's been very impressive so far this season but this will be new territory for him.

molloyjh · 07-12-2013 5:13pm

Amusingly the one time a load of the Leinster lads have come into Kielys for a game their Sky goes on the blink. It's been out for 10 mins now and no sign if it returning....

[Jackass] · 07-12-2013 5:18pm

Tell them to grab a laptop and a HDMI cable, hook it up to the TV and stream it! They have the licence (assuming not paying the bill isn't the reason why it's gone down!!) PM me if you need a link, it would be an absolute nightmare for them if they couldn't show the game, I'd say the place will empty in the next 30 minutes if they don't get it up (TWSS!)

conormccarthy92 · 07-12-2013 5:30pm

Anyone have any idea how Norths form has been recently for the Saints? I heard at the start of the season his club form was plain enough, has he improved since then?

former legend · 07-12-2013 5:34pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Eh lads Healy is here in Kielys on crutches....

Fuuuuuuuck.

Just as well Bent has been getting game time at LH lately.

molloyjh · 07-12-2013 5:36pm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Tell them to grab a laptop and a HDMI cable, hook it up to the TV and stream it! They have the licence (assuming not paying the bill isn't the reason why it's gone down!!) PM me if you need a link, it would be an absolute nightmare for them if they couldn't show the game, I'd say the place will empty in the next 30 minutes if they don't get it up (TWSS!)

The lads have left. About to do the same myself.

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 5:55pm

Wilson out for Saints. That's a plus for us.

errlloyd · 07-12-2013 5:55pm

James Wilson is out... So all my expert research has gone to waste.

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 5:56pm

Presume Pisi to 15, Elliot to wing. Hope we target Pisi...

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 5:57pm

Maafu out too!

Upper hand back to us...

errlloyd · 07-12-2013 5:58pm

Boss out, explains him not starting.

Superbus · 07-12-2013 5:58pm

Cooney on bench for Boss.

Swiwi. · 07-12-2013 5:59pm

errlloyd wrote: »

James Wilson is out... So all my expert research has gone to waste.

Another Kiwi legend out...advantage Leinster!

.ak · 07-12-2013 5:59pm

F*ck!!! Boss and Healy out.

Aw well, no point crying over spilled milk, hopefully McGrath catches them off guard. Hopefully Reddan can do the 80. Boss must've been carrying an injury.

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 5:59pm

Need 80 from Reddan in that case.

Lots of late changes!

jamiedav2011 · 07-12-2013 6:00pm

Allez les bleus. Let's ave it boys.

Glass Prison 1214 · 07-12-2013 6:01pm

Its a shame this game is being deprived of two of the best loosehead props in the world.

ssaye2 · 07-12-2013 6:01pm

Boss ferg Healy jordi Goodman Strauss and team docin kielys just left was at bar with brother 1 pint Molloy mccloskeys down the road where its at the players went to their house

Swan Curry · 07-12-2013 6:02pm

Go home ssaye2,you're drunk.

former legend · 07-12-2013 6:03pm

Was that Zane refusing to applaud Mandela?

Uh oh

Swiwi. · 07-12-2013 6:03pm

ssaye2 wrote: »

Boss ferg Healy jordi Goodman Strauss and team docin kielys just left was at bar with brother 1 pint Molloy mccloskeys down the road where its at the players went to their house

Only 1 pint there ssaye2...had to squint to decipher your post...