power flushing

rightjob!

question on powerflushing,lads who have one nad use it frequently

what is your preferred type of flushing unit magnaclean/fernox machine/flowclean ect and why?

and what chemicals would you use?

what is best value for money and what to steer clear of.

Dtp1979

rightjob! wrote: »

question on powerflushing,lads who have one nad use it frequently

what is your preferred type of flushing unit magnaclean/fernox machine/flowclean ect and why?

and what chemicals would you use?

what is best value for money and what to steer clear of.

Fernox is probably the best machine on the market but expensive. I use the magnacleanse double magnet attached to my grundfos flusher and I find it great. I always use fernox chemicals. Generally f3 if the system isn't too bad but mostly f5 is what I use to clean the system then add f1 inhibitor after. You'd also need a TDS meter to test the water as your flushing. It will show you when your rad water is within 10-20% of your mains water

shane0007

rightjob! wrote: »

what is your preferred type of flushing unit magnaclean/fernox machine/flowclean ect and why?

Fernox Powerflow with Fernox Powerflushing magnet.
Why? The spec really. 1,100 watt power so it can achieve a circulation rate of approx 100 litres per minute & a dump rate of 60 litres a minute.
Nearly every mains cannot keep up with the dump rate.

Nearly all other machines on the market operate with a 330 watt motor so very difficult to shift stubborn sludge.

rightjob! wrote: »

and what chemicals would you use?

Fernox F5, DS40 & F1 inhibitor. Sentinel products also very good. Just on experience, I have tried a few others & never get the same results.

rightjob! wrote: »

what is best value for money and what to steer clear of.

Stay clear of ones that use the system circulating pump. Low watt motor ones just don't hack it.
Kamco also do a larger one which is excellent but very pricey.

Dtp1979

I also use a vibrating rad hammer that attaches to my hammer drill. That and a dead blow rubber hammer. I find them great for stubborn rads

rightjob!

cheers for the replys lads

the fernox powerflow does seem popular

so shane the magnaclense uses the circulating pump would you steer away from this because of that?

what kind of money is the fernox machine,and where is the best place to buy?

Dtp1979

rightjob! wrote: »

cheers for the replys lads

the fernox powerflow does seem popular

so shane the magnaclense uses the circulating pump would you steer away from this because of that?

what kind of money is the fernox machine,and where is the best place to buy?

The magna cleanse can also be used with your powerflushing machine as I do. Fernox machines are around the 1k mark. A magnacleanse magnet unit or fernox unit are both close to 500

rightjob!

i think im going to go with the fernox unit,where stocks them lads?or where is best to buy from?

shane0007

rightjob! wrote: »

i think im going to go with the fernox unit,where stocks them lads?or where is best to buy from?

If you like, I can PM you the Fernox rep for Ireland's number & he will set the price for you where ever you are in the country. He will tell your local supplier your price, so you can deal with your local supplier. I think the price is fairly set but I think he can sweeten it with a few freebies.

Sparkpea

lot of fernox lovers here it seems...

my first experience of powerflushing was with a fernox machine probably 5 years or so ago and I didn't like it tbh.... I'm sure they've come on leaps and bounds now.. however mysetup is;

kamco clearflow cf90, will do up to 40 rads on a system on a 3 storey house, using a .75hp motor and circulating at 150litres per min.

I used to use their powerfull fx2 acid cleaner, this is no good for new HE boilers with aluminium etc inside so normally use fernox f3 in the system or f5 straight to flush. protect with f1.

Have a rad hammer but very rarely need to use it, use a rubber mallet when needed sometimes but generally the machine is very very good and shifts at least 95% of magnetite.

I use it with a combi mag filter. Again I don't like the fernox ones, the ones I've seen are very small in comparison? the filter is 11,000 gauss of magnetic power.

I couldn't be happier with my kamco machine and am looking to purchase another after christmas.

They aren't the easiest to get hold of as you've to order from england and they invite you to their training centre in heatrow which is a course worth doing. They do their own chemicals which are generally ok, the hyperflush is like f3 and cheaper, the fx2 is great acid but can only be used on older systems and requires a bit more work, checking the ph readings and neutralising the system with crystals after flushing. by the time u pay delivery cost on chemicals from england its near as cheap just to by f3/f5 locally.

I only know one other guy locally who has a kamco machine but its the smaller older model to mine and again he has great results from it.

I powerflush as a speciality to repair heat output to systems and would generally do 2-3 a week, many people have a flusher but only flush because of warranty and aren't really that bothered about results imo. Never had a complaint and all reports are good so its def worth purchasing a machine yourself.

Sparkpea

on the beer and waffling a bit but heres a few older pics of mine and results...

setup

magnet after a few rads

I leave the magnetite results in a bottle of container, normally 2litre milk carton as they are easily acquired! I tell people to leave it for a few weeks to harden to see the real results... here is one I revisited

result

shane0007

That is the same magnet as the Fernox one, which is also 11,000 gauss. You might be referring to their discontinued flush buddy which was crap.
The Fernox DS40 would be the equivalent to Kamco's FX2.
Kamco's are great machines. Just price is the killer.

anthonyos

I asked in hevac for the price of the mk3 and was told 1200incl vat what would a kamco cost

Sparkpea

yes shane correct! since my last post I researched the fernox magnet a bit more and they are very very similar, id even say made in the same factory! it is a dear machine but you get what you pay for is my moto, though I don't think theres that much difference in them?? I like the cf90 for its easy to move etc as u can wheel it on 2 wheels up or down steps also. Any flushing machine at 500 GBP or so just isn't worth it imo...

Wish I had took photo of a job 3wks ago, sludge filled the fullbore of the magnets housing after a couple of rads, dunno if it was the best or worst system I flushed! worst system, best result maybe, incredible results for the customer.

Sparkpea

anthonyos wrote: »

I asked in hevac for the price of the mk3 and was told 1200incl vat what would a kamco cost

will check proper figure tomorrow actually but I'd say near 1500euro or £1,200.. not sure if thats with or without the magnet tho....

Sparkpea

does anyone have a maxmag and any idea on the costs?

shane0007

anthonyos wrote: »

I asked in hevac for the price of the mk3 and was told 1200incl vat what would a kamco cost

Mk3 would be €1,100. CF90 about €1,500 + delivery from UK.
Then you need magnet, about €450, pump head adaptor about €120. Decent TDS meter about €100. Test kits & a few other sundries but most of these can be made up, such as empty pump housings, empty non-return valves, for solid fuel systems, etc.

anthonyos

company I work for has one of the cheap machines thinks it the excel industries one and its a ball of sh1t the velocity of the water flow is terrible and the outcome of a flush is that the system is the same as before we started

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

does anyone have a maxmag and any idea on the costs?

Yup if you are talking about Kamco's Combimag or Fernox Powerflush Filter, €450 incl vat. Kamco & Fernox share the manufacturer, only difference is Kamco is clear plastic, Fernox is black, but they are identical otherwise.

Sparkpea

I think the CF90 still comes with all the kit in that price (apart from the combimag), so you get all hoses, chemicals for a flush or 2, ph paper/test kit, pump head adapter kit and storage bucket.

Is the magnacleanse like the tp1 or is it linked to a flushing machine?

Sparkpea

shane0007 wrote: »

Yup if you are talking about Kamco's Combimag or Fernox Powerflush Filter, €450 incl vat. Kamco & Fernox share the manufacturer, only difference is Kamco is clear plastic, Fernox is black, but they are identical otherwise.

no its like a magnetic roller (seen it on fernox website there), a bit like the rad hammer only a different option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj3aKStbvuo

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

no its like a magnetic roller (seen it on fernox website there), a bit like the rad hammer only a different option

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj3aKStbvuo

Oh yes. I got one from them ages ago as a demo. I thought it was crap. It will only move loose magnetite which would be done by the unit anyhow.
If you want one, you can have mine.

Sparkpea

if you say its crap thats good enough for me haven't used the rad hammer in years either, wee rubber mallet is enough now and again I feel. Would love to get an infared camera to be able to see cold spots before and after but they are mega money...


dear santa........

shane0007

Yes I use a dead blow mallet. Simple & effective.
I purchased the Flir i7 camera last year. Great investment. I would use it heaps. They do cheaper versions, the i3 & the i5. I think the difference is picture quality & image saving.
There was one for sale on Donedeal for about €1,000 a while back. It sold immediately!
Flir do recon ones direct also. They have an agent in Portlaoise also.

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

Yes I use a dead blow mallet. Simple & effective.
I purchased the Flir i7 camera last year. Great investment. I would use it heaps. They do cheaper versions, the i3 & the i5. I think the difference is picture quality & image saving.
There was one for sale on Donedeal for about €1,000 a while back. It sold immediately!
Flir do recon ones direct also. They have an agent in Portlaoise also.

In Portlaoise?? Who?

shane0007

Dtp1979 wrote: »

In Portlaoise?? Who?

PowerPoint, I bought mine from them.

Sparkpea

what sort of money new shane?

shane0007

i7 €2,500
I think the i5 is about €1,700 & the i3 about €1,000.

Sparkpea

Thanks, certainly be a good investment, but put on the long finger lol

shane0007

Keep an eye on Flir's website as they sometimes do special offers, especially with recon ones.

http://www.flir.com/cs/emea/en/view/?id=42844

Also watch out for 2nd hand ones. A lot of BER guys bought them & then realised there is no money in being a BER surveyor!

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

Thanks, certainly be a good investment, but put on the long finger lol

What I love about it, you can see into the rad, see the blockages, know exactly where to thump & see when it shifts completely. Also great for seeing if the system needs a powerflush in the first instance. I usually ask the customer to have the heating on for an hour before I get there. A bit of adjusting & you can see if it is a sludge issue or not pretty quickly.
Good for balancing too as you see exact temps on the rads & pipework.
Then there is leak detection & brilliant for finding pipe runs in floors if you are trying to zone or see what is happening in a system.

Sparkpea

definitely handy then! I love gadgets but can't see it being one of those things that you don't use often, as you've pointed out its useful for more than just pointing at rads.

bought a new van this time last year (new to me '07) and debating upgrading again this christmas but with money sitting there for it the flir is looking more appealing lol

changed a rad for a guy today as it was leaking and the glare in the system was deadful, expansion tank was pumping hot too as the pitch of the loft is only about 3ft high, so have recommended pressurising the system and powerflush, then noticed all the valves are 38years old and face fit, lockshields are the screw driver slot ones so after pretty much talking him into powerflushing I started to back track a bit thinking they are gonna leak and be a right pain in the ass.. didn't want to suggest the extra cost for new trvs/ls on each rad but he seems keen enough now but hes panicking about the rads/pipework/boiler leaking during flush, no guarantees they won't im afraid..

Gasherbraun

Hi.

I have learnt a bit about power flushing reading this.....do any of you cover the Celbridge area by any chance?

shane0007

One of the worst sludged gas boiler systems I have come across to date. Open vented.
I will post the thermal image camera images when I get a chance.

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

One of the worst sludged gas boiler systems I have come across to date. Open vented.
I will post the thermal image camera images when I get a chance.

How many of those did you get from the system Shane?

shane0007

3 plus what is flushed when dumped.
Every rad downstairs was solid blocked & 2 upstairs blocked. Every rad now clear & heating top to bottom.
I took some interesting images with the camera.

Without reverse flow, I wouldn't have been able to unblock them. Only when I put it in reverse did I get movement.

Sparkpea

how often would you guys flush? can be a tedious job sometimes

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

how often would you guys flush? can be a tedious job sometimes

Every boiler swap over plus problem systems, so depending on time of year, 2 - 3 times per week.

Sparkpea

do you allow 2 days for a boiler install?

shane0007

Here are the thermal image pics of one of the rads....

All of the images are of the same rad but at each stage of the powerflushing process.

shane0007

Who can spot the problem with this rad, well 2 problems really?

Sparkpea

shane0007 wrote: »

Who can spot the problem with this rad, well 2 problems really?

sludge and needs bled?

Sparkpea

some piece of kit that flir shane!

*drools*

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

do you allow 2 days for a boiler install?

Absolutely everytime. You cannot do a flush & boiler swap over in one day, well not properly in my opinion.

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

sludge and needs bled?

Yup & nup. Well, nearly right but why does it need bleeding?

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

some piece of kit that flir shane!

*drools*

The brilliant thing about it is you know exactly where the sludge is & more importantly, when you can move onto the next one.

rightjob!

shane0007 wrote: »

Who can spot the problem with this rad, well 2 problems really?

sludge and no water.

shane0007

Sparkpea wrote: »

sludge and needs bled?

Rad was off level & the bleed screw on the wrong end so it wouldn't bleed!
Your prize, a magnetic roller!!! Yeehaw...

Dtp1979

Sparkpea wrote: »

how often would you guys flush? can be a tedious job sometimes

I'm doing my third tomorrow. It is a tedious job, but rewarding when you get the better of a dirty system!

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

3 plus what is flushed when dumped.
Every rad downstairs was solid blocked & 2 upstairs blocked. Every rad now clear & heating top to bottom.
I took some interesting images with the camera.

Without reverse flow, I wouldn't have been able to unblock them. Only when I put it in reverse did I get movement.

Ye I find the reverse feature very useful too

Dtp1979

Sparkpea wrote: »

do you allow 2 days for a boiler install?

I usually do

Sparkpea

why would it matter what side the bleed screw was on? o_O

I was at a job yesterday with a new 40cdi classic regular and the towel rail wasn't heating, took it off and was like grit inside, I asked if the boys flushed the system when installing but she wasn't sure but they where away in a day so told her no chance then. charged her a fortune and now shes getting me to flush the system after xmas... 19 rads on system =[ 3 storey =[ must wear a pedometer that day!

have you set prices for flushing? I price per rad mainly but have a minimum charge, charge extra for link ups.

also seen a boyo advertising in local chippy, powerflushing from £100! hes either using a garden hose or thats £100 to get his machine outta the van