Rules Question

istaunton

Quick one for those in the know.

Played at the weekend with winter rules in play (Drop in rough inside a club lenght and place on fairway inside 6"). One of the lads in the group landed is drive just in the rough. He used a club lenght to drop it back on the fairway. Which is perfectly fine. He then marked the ball again and replaced it as its now on the fairway. My question are you allowed to do this, effectivly taking relief (or what ever its called in the winter) twice?

PARlance

istaunton wrote: »

Quick one for those in the know.

Played at the weekend with winter rules in play (Drop in rough inside a club lenght and place on fairway inside 6"). One of the lads in the group landed is drive just in the rough. He used a club lenght to drop it back on the fairway. Which is perfectly fine. He then marked the ball again and replaced it as its now on the fairway. My question are you allowed to do this, effectivly taking relief (or what ever its called in the winter) twice?

He shouldn't have stopped, if he kept replacing it...and moving it up 6 inches... he could have had an eagle putt after about 40 mins....

ForeRight

What's the reasoning for dropping within a club lenght in the rough and not where the ball is? I've never heard of that.

You could drop away from bushes or obstacles in your line with that.

mike12

I always thought it was drop in the rough myself, don't think it is a rule as such and every club will differ slightly but any club i was in it was always drop it back in the rough.
Think once he is allowed to drop it back out of the rough then he is ok to place it on the fairway.

kelbal

istaunton wrote: »

One of the lads in the group landed is drive just in the rough. He used a club lenght to drop it back on the fairway. Which is perfectly fine.

Thats totally not fine!! Thats a preffered lie - you can't drop from rough onto fairway. Same way you can't drop out of a bunker. Drop within one club length alright, but he has to stay in the rough
That's my understanding anyway.

And one drop/place is all you're allowed

kelbal

PARlance wrote: »

He shouldn't have stopped, if he kept replacing it...and moving it up 6 inches... he could have had an eagle putt after about 40 mins....

Only one drop allowed - not nearer the hole.

gotapaininmy

I think he's ok to be honest, using the rules to his advantage, sounds like something the pros would do. I vaguely remember seeing something on TV where a guy was getting relief from a cart path and dropped it on the fairway which was nearest point of relief and then got to place as placing was in due to heavy rain. The one club length thing in the rough is an odd one though, in my club the rule is you mark your ball and drop it as close as you can to that spot not nearer the hole, a bit vague I know but it doesn't matter a whole lot as your handicap can't be affected once you're allowed to handle the ball in the rough as far as I know. I suppose it does matter somewhat if it was a competition and prizes are up for grabs.

shamco

gotapaininmy wrote: »

I think he's ok to be honest, using the rules to his advantage, sounds like something the pros would do. I vaguely remember seeing something on TV where a guy was getting relief from a cart path and dropped it on the fairway which was nearest point of relief and then got to place as placing was in due to heavy rain. The one club length thing in the rough is an odd one though, in my club the rule is you mark your ball and drop it as close as you can to that spot not nearer the hole, a bit vague I know but it doesn't matter a whole lot as your handicap can't be affected once you're allowed to handle the ball in the rough as far as I know. I suppose it does matter somewhat if it was a competition and prizes are up for grabs.

No I think once he has dropped the ball that ball is now in play and he can't place it a second time. I think he drop on the fairway though if it is within a club length

Dbu

Thats fine, no rule broken

He can drop it wherever he wants withing the specified distance, if thats on the fairway, so be it, as long as its not nearer the hole than the original position. He is then allowed to clean and place the ball, no problem with that imo

SnowDrifts

kelbal wrote: »

Thats totally not fine!! Thats a preffered lie - you can't drop from rough onto fairway. Same way you can't drop out of a bunker. Drop within one club length alright, but he has to stay in the rough
That's my understanding anyway.

And one drop/place is all you're allowed

It's winter rules and not only does it tend to change from club to club but, like my club, can change from year to year in the same club.

We used to be able to drop from semi-rough to fairway within 1 club length but now the ball must remain in the semi. Seems fairer.

gotapaininmy

shamco wrote: »

No I think once he has dropped the ball that ball is now in play and he can't place it a second time. I think he drop on the fairway though if it is within a club length

I don't know, I remember the guy I was talking about on TV before, it was Karl Petterson, the reason I remember it is because he used his broomstick putter to get it onto the fairway and then placed it. I thought this was against the spirit of the game to be honest and was never done by the old pros like Sam Torrnace and Peter Senior when the broomsticks came about originally. I have the rules app on my phone must look it up.

kelbal

SnowDrifts wrote: »

It's winter rules and not only does it tend to change from club to club but, like my club, can change from year to year in the same club.

We used to be able to drop from semi-rough to fairway within 1 club length but now the ball must remain in the semi. Seems fairer.

Yeah, maybe it differs depending on the club - seems totally daft to me to be able to drop from rough onto fairway.
Have to admit, I do use the drop in the rough to improve my line or stop my swing being obstructed when there's a tree/bush in the way

BraveDonut

Correctly dropping your ball in the rough should be to drop it as near as possible to its original position. The one club length rule is used to ensure that the ball comes to rest no more than one club length away.
This is to stop people from adding a bit of top spin when dropping to a ball position on a hill and have the ball roll 20 or 30 yards to the fairway.

Wombatman

A ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course where the applicable Rule requires it to be dropped. If it is not so dropped, Rules 20-6 and 20-7 apply.

Does dropping in the rough mean it has to be dropped in the rough?

istaunton

Wow i thought this was going to be a one or two post thread at a max. Lot of different takes on this one. Still not sure what the correct rule is though

Golfgraffix

I dont claim to be an expert but am certainly a rules geek. I think your partner was wrong and should have incurred a penalty.

I think dropping on the fairway was no porblem unless there was a local rule stating that he could not. The problem is in the two drops. My rules pdf version is from 2011 so it could have changed but i dont think so.

Appendix 1 Part B

Within the policy established in Part A of this Appendix, the Committee may adopt a Specimen Local Rule by referring, on a score card or notice board, to the examples given below. However, Specimen Local Rules of a temporary nature should not be printed on a score card.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply. If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke. Note: “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes

Russman

kelbal wrote: »

Thats totally not fine!! Thats a preffered lie - you can't drop from rough onto fairway. Same way you can't drop out of a bunker. Drop within one club length alright, but he has to stay in the rough
That's my understanding anyway.

And one drop/place is all you're allowed

A bunker is a hazard, so different rules apply, not the same at all.

onlyfinewine

The problem seems to be that unless the committee defines exactly where the ball is to be dropped or placed there will be ambiguity.

Examples of rules I have observed are, a) as near as possible, b) within six inches or c) within a club length from where the ball lay. These can obviously affect the relief available considerably
but it is highly unlikely that after taking relief by dropping that you would be entitled to place the ball prior to making another stroke.

Also, and to add further confusion to the picture, there is no definition of rough (cut or otherwise) in the rules of golf. There is only fairway and through the green! plus the green and hazards and out of bounds of course.

TRS30

Wombatman wrote: »

A ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course where the applicable Rule requires it to be dropped. If it is not so dropped, Rules 20-6 and 20-7 apply.

Does dropping in the rough mean it has to be dropped in the rough?

I think this means that the ball must hit the ground within the 'dropping area' i.e. 2 or 1 club lengths.

GreeBo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I dont claim to be an expert but am certainly a rules geek. I think your partner was wrong and should have incurred a penalty.

I think dropping on the fairway was no porblem unless there was a local rule stating that he could not. The problem is in the two drops. My rules pdf version is from 2011 so it could have changed but i dont think so.

Appendix 1 Part B

Within the policy established in Part A of this Appendix, the Committee may adopt a Specimen Local Rule by referring, on a score card or notice board, to the examples given below. However, Specimen Local Rules of a temporary nature should not be printed on a score card.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply. If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke. Note: “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes

The first instance was a drop though.

Its the same as dropping away from GUR and then placing the ball on the fairway, what he did was perfectly fine imo.

Golfgraffix

GreeBo wrote: »

The first instance was a drop though.

Its the same as dropping away from GUR and then placing the ball on the fairway, what he did was perfectly fine imo.

I dont think so

Unless i read it wrong, his 1st drop was the winter rule drop, he was not dropping from GUR or any type of drop.

And it is clear that you are only allowed one drop within the specified paramaters of the local rule.

J

Russman

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I dont think so

Unless i read it wrong, his 1st drop was the winter rule drop, he was not dropping from GUR or any type of drop.

And it is clear that you are only allowed one drop within the specified paramaters of the local rule.

J

I don't think it matters what the drop was for, afaik there are only two types of drop, under penalty and without penalty. If a drop is without penalty it doesn't matter what exactly its for. I read it that the drop is almost an extension of the original shot, ie you're taking relief from something (in this case from your lie in the rough), and if that relief gets you to a spot where you can then place, lucky for you.

Golfgraffix

Russman wrote: »

I don't think it matters what the drop was for, afaik there are only two types of drop, under penalty and without penalty. If a drop is without penalty it doesn't matter what exactly its for. I read it that the drop is almost an extension of the original shot, ie you're taking relief from something (in this case from your lie in the rough), and if that relief gets you to a spot where you can then place, lucky for you.

I am not disputing the drop but you cant take relief twice. The relief is from the abnormal playing conditions of the course of which the fairway is part of.

If it was a GUR drop then he could place on the fairway again.

J

istaunton

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I dont think so

Unless i read it wrong, his 1st drop was the winter rule drop, he was not dropping from GUR or any type of drop.

And it is clear that you are only allowed one drop within the specified paramaters of the local rule.

J

Golfgraffix has this right in the example i gave at the start. There was no hazard or GUR involved. Purely a winter rules drop

Russman

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I am not disputing the drop but you cant take relief twice. The relief is from the abnormal playing conditions of the course of which the fairway is part of.

If it was a GUR drop then he could place on the fairway again.

J

I disagree, my take on it is that if the ball is on the fairway, he can place it, it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as he didn't kick it there of course

Golfgraffix

Russman wrote: »

I disagree, my take on it is that if the ball is on the fairway, he can place it, it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as he didn't kick it there of course

I could be wrong but i dont think so, the rule is quite explecit in saying that the player can only take one drop/relief from the abnormal conditons. Placing on the fairway would be taking relief twice, would it not ?

J

Golfgraffix

Russman wrote: »

I don't think it matters what the drop was for, afaik there are only two types of drop, under penalty and without penalty. If a drop is without penalty it doesn't matter what exactly its for. I read it that the drop is almost an extension of the original shot, ie you're taking relief from something (in this case from your lie in the rough), and if that relief gets you to a spot where you can then place, lucky for you.

I re-read this and i where i would disagree is that the relief is not from your lie in the rough but your lie full stop. You are taking releif from the "Abnormal Course Conditions"

J

onlyfinewine

Russman wrote: »

I disagree, my take on it is that if the ball is on the fairway, he can place it, it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as he didn't kick it there of course

I still think that after you take relief as allowed, you cannot take more relief for the same shot.
The idea is to provide relief from mud or the like to provide a more pleasant golfing experience, and different relief can be allowed from different parts of the course.
But you only get one shot at it. For instance you cannot place the ball twice on the fairway either.

Russman

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I could be wrong but i dont think so, the rule is quite explecit in saying that the player can only take one drop/relief from the abnormal conditons. Placing on the fairway would be taking relief twice, would it not ?

J

I'm not 100% sure to be quite honest, but logically I can't see how the rules would allow that two people might have their balls on the fairway, one having hit it there and one having dropped there, and with placing on fairway in effect, one guy can place and one can't.

Dbu

God, we would have left a lot of groups though arguing this one on the side of the fairway:p
I just asked a buddy and he says yes he is entitled to drop in the fairway, as long as it is within the distance allowed, under the local rule on the board. He is not bending the rules, just using them to his advantage....

GreeBo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I am not disputing the drop but you cant take relief twice. The relief is from the abnormal playing conditions of the course of which the fairway is part of.

If it was a GUR drop then he could place on the fairway again.

J

he isn't taking relief twice though.
I used the GUR example as an example of when you can drop and then subsequently place.

the rule is you drop from GUR, the local rule is that you are entitled to place your ball on the fairway, so you do both.
I don't see the difference between this and the OPs scenario...

Corkblowin

My understanding of the winter rule is you're allowed place the ball in the fairway - but you can't go back, re-mark and place it again. Its not like on the green and so once you've placed it then its 'in play'.

Same as when you can't re-drop in the rough because you don't like the lie you got.

By extension then - he was able to drop from the rough to the fairway no problem, but suffered a penalty by moving a ball that was now 'in play'.

That would be my ruling if asked.

(in short - you can't get the ball in your hand twice!)

cgh

sounds like this is a local winter rule, perhaps they should check with the commitee to get clarification on what the local rule entails. One club length is a lot of leeway to be given when dropping in the rough.

GreeBo

Corkblowin wrote: »

(in short - you can't get the ball in your hand twice!)

except you can!
see my example, or another one, marking your ball off the green.

also the ball was always in play, you don't have to take winter relief...

onlyfinewine

GreeBo wrote: »

he isn't taking relief twice though.
I used the GUR example as an example of when you can drop and then subsequently place.

the rule is you drop from GUR, the local rule is that you are entitled to place your ball on the fairway, so you do both.
I don't see the difference between this and the OPs scenario...

So if he was on the edge of the fairway and he placed it, if it subsequently moved and went in the rough he is now entitled to a free drop? A bit ludicrous don't you think?

GUR is a completely different situation with different parameters involved in taking relief and does not apply in this instance where winter rules only are being invoked.

Dbu

Corkblowin wrote: »

My understanding of the winter rule is you're allowed place the ball in the fairway - but you can't go back, re-mark and place it again. Its not like on the green and so once you've placed it then its 'in play'.

Same as when you can't re-drop in the rough because you don't like the lie you got.

By extension then - he was able to drop from the rough to the fairway no problem, but suffered a penalty by moving a ball that was now 'in play'.

That would be my ruling if asked.

(in short - you can't get the ball in your hand twice!)

after your drop, he can, mark again with a peg and clean the ball and then place in a spot within the local rule distance. placing on the fairway in winter is to stop fellas like me taking massive divots. He can if he wishes play 'as it lies' from both places without dropping or placing.

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

also the ball was always in play, you don't have to take winter relief...

That would be my point - your example of the GUR was where you're taking relief. In this instance the players are allowed a free drop as there might be abnormal ground conditions on the course. But to drop and then place, I believe, is an abuse of the local rule (or at least the spirit of the local rule)

Having said that - if he actually was in an abnormal ground condition he could do what he did.

Corkblowin

Dbu wrote: »

placing on the fairway in winter is to stop fellas like me taking massive divots.

I agree, but if he placed it and it fell off whatever tuft of grass he put it on he's not allowed go back & re-do it.

Dbu

Corkblowin wrote: »

I agree, but if he placed it and it fell off whatever tuft of grass he put it on he's not allowed go back & re-do it.

He can as long as he has not picked up his marker, tee or whatever he uses to mark the spot. Once he has picked up this the ball is in play and has to play then

jj72

Dbu wrote: »

He can as long as he has not picked up his marker, tee or whatever he uses to mark the spot. Once he has picked up this the ball is in play and has to play then

I think once you let go of it then its in play...even if you still have it marked. Could be wrong

Dbu

jj72 wrote: »

I think once you let go of it then its in play...even if you still have it marked. Could be wrong

Dont think so,
have a look at pro's on greens.
A lot will put their coin behind the ball and line it up from the back using the sharpie line on the ball,
they will then proceed to go around the other side of the hole to look again, leaving the coin behind the ball
They then return and may make a slight adjustment to the ball, with the coin still on the green behind it. Once the coin is removed the ball is in play. Thats my reading of it anyway:)

jj72

Dbu wrote: »

Dont think so,
have a look at pro's on greens.
A lot will put their coin behind the ball and line it up from the back using the sharpie line on the ball,
they will then proceed to go around the other side of the hole to look again, leaving the coin behind the ball
They then return and may make a slight adjustment to the ball, with the coin still on the green behind it. Once the coin is removed the ball is in play. Thats my reading of it anyway:)

Oh ya I agree with that but when its on the fairway I think its different. Pretty much the same as when you are dropping it, you can only do it once.

Dbu

jj72 wrote: »

Oh ya I agree with that but when its on the fairway I think its different. Pretty much the same as when you are dropping it, you can only do it once.

Hi JJ
So you reckon if you 'place' the ball and it rolls back say an inch into a hole for example that you have to play it?
As long as your peg is in the ground i think you can place it again...most people i see placing do it anyway:)

jj72

Dbu wrote: »

Hi JJ
So you reckon if you 'place' the ball and it rolls back say an inch into a hole for example that you have to play it?
As long as your peg is in the ground i think you can place it again...most people i see placing do it anyway:)

ya I just googled it there and the barry Rhodes rules page has the following on it:

What must I do if, after I have placed my ball at rest, it subsequently moves?
The ball is in play as soon as it is at rest, so it must be played from where it moves to, without penalty, whether that is nearer to the hole or farther away from it.

May I (re)place my ball more than once?
If you have replaced your ball at a marker on the putting green you may mark and lift it again (e.g. to line-up markings on the ball to the line of putt). However, a ball that has been (re)placed off the putting green (e.g. when a Local Rule for Preferred Lies is in operation) may not be lifted again once it has come to rest after placing, because it is in play.

Dbu

jj72 wrote: »

ya I just googled it there and the barry Rhodes rules page has the following on it:

What must I do if, after I have placed my ball at rest, it subsequently moves?
The ball is in play as soon as it is at rest, so it must be played from where it moves to, without penalty, whether that is nearer to the hole or farther away from it.

May I (re)place my ball more than once?
If you have replaced your ball at a marker on the putting green you may mark and lift it again (e.g. to line-up markings on the ball to the line of putt). However, a ball that has been (re)placed off the putting green (e.g. when a Local Rule for Preferred Lies is in operation) may not be lifted again once it has come to rest after placing, because it is in play.

Interesting JJ,
I must do a bit of research on point 1 myself, maybe I have been cheating all my life:D

SnowDrifts

Again, all this debate would easily be solved by the club's winter rules stating the ball must remain in semi-rough after being dropped. It's fairest way.

GreeBo

Corkblowin wrote: »

That would be my point - your example of the GUR was where you're taking relief. In this instance the players are allowed a free drop as there might be abnormal ground conditions on the course. But to drop and then place, I believe, is an abuse of the local rule (or at least the spirit of the local rule)

Having said that - if he actually was in an abnormal ground condition he could do what he did.

during winter rules all fairways are abnormal ground conditions, ergo if your ball is on the fairway you get to lift, clean, place it.
irrespective of how it got there

Sandwlch

Russman wrote: »

I don't think it matters what the drop was for, afaik there are only two types of drop, under penalty and without penalty. If a drop is without penalty it doesn't matter what exactly its for. I read it that the drop is almost an extension of the original shot, ie you're taking relief from something (in this case from your lie in the rough), and if that relief gets you to a spot where you can then place, lucky for you.

Russman wrote: »

I disagree, my take on it is that if the ball is on the fairway, he can place it, it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as he didn't kick it there of course

GreeBo wrote: »

he isn't taking relief twice though.
I used the GUR example as an example of when you can drop and then subsequently place.

the rule is you drop from GUR, the local rule is that you are entitled to place your ball on the fairway, so you do both.
I don't see the difference between this and the OPs scenario...

Following this logic of it - doesnt matter how it got there - the rule doesnt say you can only take one of the reliefs etc, we can extend to:

- hit the ball the rough - take a drop within a club length - ball is in the rough, I'm entitled to relief here too, so I'll drop it another clublength closer to the fairway - repeat- repeat - oh now i'm on the fairway, I can place - place within six inches - oh, I'm on the fairway again, doesnt matter how it got there, I'm entitled to relief within 6" - place - repeat-repeat-repeat-repeat-repeat.........- ah, middle of the fairway, I think I'll hit it with a club now!

Corkblowin

GreeBo wrote: »

during winter rules all fairways are abnormal ground conditions, ergo if your ball is on the fairway you get to lift, clean, place it.
irrespective of how it got there

As is the rough, therefore all the course is considered abnormal ground- so assuming no particular difficulties;

- the player has an opportunity, if he wishes to take either a drop or place the ball, depending on where it lies;
- he can't replace or re-drop a ball once he has carried out that action;
- if in carrying out his drop under the local rule he can drop on the fairway he is entitled to do so.

However at that point he has carried out the procedure under the local rule and I would not be happy to see him pick it up again to place. As I said before - I think he's definitely breaking the spirit of the rule if not the rule as laid down by that committee.

Imhof Tank

This is very straightforward IMO your partner did nothing wrong at all.

You find the fairway - having then to play a possible mudball from the fairway would be unfair hence the lift clean and place option. The option to clean is surely the most significant relief under winter rules.

Shouldn't matter how the ball gets to the fairway - the player has to have the clean and place option once the ground conditions are abnormal. Its a lottery otherwise.

Russman

Corkblowin wrote: »

As is the rough, therefore all the course is considered abnormal ground- so assuming no particular difficulties;

- the player has an opportunity, if he wishes to take either a drop or place the ball, depending on where it lies;
- he can't replace or re-drop a ball once he has carried out that action;
- if in carrying out his drop under the local rule he can drop on the fairway he is entitled to do so.

However at that point he has carried out the procedure under the local rule and I would not be happy to see him pick it up again to place. As I said before - I think he's definitely breaking the spirit of the rule if not the rule as laid down by that committee.

Depends if you read it as drop OR place depending on where the ball lies, as opposed to drop in the rough AND place on the fairway.

I can't see any difference to, say dropping away from a cart path you might be standing on but your ball is playable in the rough, but your club length drop gets you onto fairway where you can then place it.