DOCSIS 3.1 - 1Gb/s from UPC in 2016

bk

So last month the specification for DOCSIS 3.1 was finalised. DOCSIS is the technology that cable uses to deliver broadband. UPC currently use DOCSIS 3.0.

DOCSIS 3.1 will deliver speeds of 10Gb/s down, 1Gb/s up, shared, which should allow for actual products of 1Gb/s to users!

Liberty Global, the parent company of UPC are one of the drivers behind the DOCSIS 3.1 spec and have been quoted as saying they can't wait to roll it out as fast as possible.

Widespread consumer deployments are expected in 2016, so we might start seeing 1Gb/s products by then!!

Now in reality most consumers have no need for 1Gb/s, it is more of a marketing thing then anything else. However the reason why UPC and other cable companies are so keen on DOCSIS 3.1 is because it is 50% more efficient then DOCSIS 3.0. So that means a big reduction in the cost per bit. So even if UPC didn't see a market for 1Gb/s, it is still very much worth doing DOCSIS 3.1 as it allows them to significantly reduce the cost of delivering even the current speeds.

If UPC do start deploying DOCSIS 3.1, then that will put a lot of pressure on Eircom to start doing FTTH.

Exciting times ahead

Praetorian

Does it require new hardware or is it a firmware / software change?

Crazy to think Eircom are only mid rollout on the 70m/bit products and by the time they are done with the rollout their main competitor could be offering speeds over 14 times faster. I can't imagine Eircom actually running FTTH for a long time. I hope I'm wrong!

There is still no talk about implementing vectoring or bonding, or bonded vectoring. Perhaps that will be Eircom's answer in 2016...

bk

It will require new hardware.

Both new modems for customers and in the headend. Though the rest of the network shouldn't need any change.

Despite the .1 in the name, in is actually a pretty revolutionary change in how DOCSIS works, from wikipedia:

The new specs will do away with 6 MHz and 8 MHz wide channel spacing and instead use smaller (20 kHz to 50 kHz wide) orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) subcarriers; these can be bonded inside a block spectrum that could end up being about 200 MHz wide

The good news is that 3.1 is very backwards compatible. A 3.1 modem can still do 3.0 if needed. Likewise a new 3.1 headend can support both 3.1 and 3.0 modems operating on the same network.

So the upgrade path is similar to the 1.0/2.0 to 3.0 upgrade path. Upgrade the headend to 3.1 and then gradually switch users over to 3.1 modems when they request higher speeds, with other users who want slower speeds staying on 3.0 modems *

* 3.0 modems should be able to support up to about 400mb/s, it is only when you go above that will you need 3.1, so not exactly slower either!!

So not quite as easy as a firmware upgrade, but much easier/cheaper then a FTTH rollout. I imagine it will be a gradual rollout, similar to the 3.0 rollout, with people upgrading as they need.

As for Eircom, I believe vectoring is coming in very early 2014. I don't believe Eircom has any plans to do bonding. The way they are doing VDSL installs, with the engineer only connecting one pair during the customer visit, would indicate this, otherwise they would have the engineer connect two pairs during the customer install, thus reducing the need for a revisit if doing bonding.

And it makes sense, vectored bonding only gives you a max of "upto" 200mb/s, which isn't completive with DOCSIS 3.0 today (up to 400mb/s possible), never mind upcoming DOCSIS 3.1.

I'd imagine the thinking went that 100mb/s VDSL would be enough to stop them haemorrhaging customers to UPC, as it should be fast enough for most people, specially if they keep the pricing competitive. If they need to go faster then this, then they know they need to switch to FTTH.

The good news is that Eircoms VDSL network looks like it was designed with FTTH in mind from the start. First of all, the VDSL network brings fibre very close to many peoples homes. Second if seems that they have brought enough fibre to each cab to then do FTTH from these cabs in future and finally the VDSL cabs themselves are designed to do FTTH from the start. So not a bad setup.

I imagine how Eircom might approach this is to sell, 100mb/s VDSL as "cheap" broadband, and then in areas with UPC and ESB fibre, to allow people to "upgrade" to more expensive FTTH 1Gb/s broadband if they want it (and willing to pay for it).

It isn't necessarily a bad plan at all. Specially as it means people will get "decent" broadband much quicker then if Eircom had gone straight to FTTH. And even more so that it means people in many rural areas seem to be getting some decent broadband over the next 2 years.

bk

While I've no inside knowledge of this, I guess that they will have to end the analogue TV service in order to make sufficient space to run both 3.0 and 3.1 side by side.

Interestingly as these high speeds come out, UPC say the bottleneck is actually in peoples homes, in particular wifi not being fast enough to keep up with these new faster services!!

In other news, UPC seem to be close to becoming a mobile phone operator too, by doing a deal to run as a MVNO on Three's network. It isn't expected to start up until after the o2/Three merger goes ahead next year.

This will mean UPC will be able to sell quad-play packages, similar to Eircom.

It could be particularly interesting if UPC enable Wifi Hotspot 2.0 on their routers to support wifi roaming. It could mean you spend most of the time on your phone/tablet accessing the internet over other peoples UPC wifi points, rather the 3G/4G. Makes an awful lot of sense.

Of course I'd expect Eircom and Vodafone to look to do the same.

ED E

If it could be rolled out with 802.11AC CPE that'd help with the current bottlenecking. Great news altogether though.

Think horizon is a step towards this? If they can move everyone to that they can drop the analogue bands.

bk

ED E wrote: »

If it could be rolled out with 802.11AC CPE that'd help with the current bottlenecking. Great news altogether though.

Yes that will help, though 1Gb/s is the theoritical max in the lab, in reality it will be lower.

Also there is the issue that most clients (laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. don't support ac).

ED E wrote: »

Think horizon is a step towards this? If they can move everyone to that they can drop the analogue bands.

Yup Horizon should help a lot with multiroom viewing.

funnyname

This is very interesting news, wonder what the ESB will do with their planned roll-out, if it doesn't already match this then it puts pressure on them to update it so that they are not blown out of the water before they even get in the water.

bk

funnyname wrote: »

This is very interesting news, wonder what the ESB will do with their planned roll-out, if it doesn't already match this then it puts pressure on them to update it so that they are not blown out of the water before they even get in the water.

From what I've heard the ESB are specifically avoiding areas already served by UPC, instead targeting urban and semi urban areas who only have Eircom.

Makes sense, it wouldn't make sense for them to go head to head with UPC.

Holy moly, i've only begun to get the true speeds from my 120mb package after running a ethernet cable to my desktop. This is just messing now :eek:

It will be funny seeing your new SSD becoming the bottleneck.

Calibos

No doubt the product will be 1000/10 :rolleyes:

dxhound2005

Praetorian wrote: »

Does it require new hardware or is it a firmware / software change?

Crazy to think Eircom are only mid rollout on the 70m/bit products and by the time they are done with the rollout their main competitor could be offering speeds over 14 times faster. I can't imagine Eircom actually running FTTH for a long time. I hope I'm wrong!

There is still no talk about implementing vectoring or bonding, or bonded vectoring. Perhaps that will be Eircom's answer in 2016...

If UPC are Eircom's main competitor why are they not competing in Dundalk? And if they are Eircom's main competitor why are they not offering a broadband service anywhere is Co Cavan or Co Monaghan? Is there any chance of UPC coming to the Hackballscross area to compete with Eircom Fibre in 2016?

No talk about vectoring? Have you stopped reading this forum for the last few months?

The vectoring system will begin rollout in early 2014 and will be available on all lines on Eircom’s fibre network – 1.2m premises – by 2015.

Cuddlesworth

Fiber to the home is really expensive to do. In terms of cabling and in the cabinet. Its also really fragile and susceptible to damage.

Considering that Eircom is on the verge of bankruptcy, I can't see them getting the capital to actually do it.

BeerWolf

And I see myself, by 2020, still on a measly 5MB connection... /woo

bk

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If UPC are Eircom's main competitor why are they not competing in Dundalk? And if they are Eircom's main competitor why are they not offering a broadband service anywhere is Co Cavan or Co Monaghan? Is there any chance of UPC coming to the Hackballscross area to compete with Eircom Fibre in 2016?

Because rolling out cable infrastructure is VERY expensive to do.

UPC are a private company and they will carefully study the costs of rolling out their infrastructure to new areas, versus the potential customers they might win in those areas.

Up till now it has made far more financial sense to focus on areas that already have UPC cable (and thus customers) and focus on upgrading that infrastructure and winning as many people from Eircom and Sky in those areas.

Expanding to new areas has been a low priority until now. They may eventually decide to expand to new areas, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There are still parts of the existing cable network that still need to be upgraded first (areas with just DOCSIS 2 gear, insufficient fibre and areas that are fed by MMDS and microwave!!).

However there is some good news here, it seems that the ESB are planning on rolling out Fibre To The Home and it seems they specifically plan to target those urban and semi-urban areas that aren't currently served by UPC.

So the towns you mention may end up getting ESB high speed fibre to compete with Eircom, which would be almost just as good as UPC.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Considering that Eircom is on the verge of bankruptcy, I can't see them getting the capital to actually do it.

To be honest, I was surprised that they got the capital to do this VDSL rollout.

But the rollout has been far more extensive then I could have imagined and it seems to have gone far more smoothly then expected and is way ahead of schedule. So much so, that they are not extending it to cover an extra 400,000 premises!

To be honest I've been really impressed by this VDSL rollout by Eircom, so perhaps things are finally stabilising at Eircom and they just might get the capital to invest in fibre long term.

Praetorian

So they should have called this technology docsis 4, not 3.1

bk

Praetorian wrote: »

So they should have called this technology docsis 4, not 3.1

Yes, here is an interesting quote I read about the naming:

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/powell-rebrand-docsis-31/d/d-id/706212

DOCSIS 3.1
Mr.Powells's comments about the cable industry being conservative are indicative of part of the reason we have the name DOCSIS 3.1. From what I have read, the CableLabs staff were afraid of alienating cable company stockholders with the new standard. The new standard will require an enormous capital investment if a cable company wishes to see every bit of the new standard's potential realized. In order to obscure that fact slightly, CableLabs decided to call the new standard DOCSIS3.1 instead of DOCSIS 4.0, even though this was a major change in how cable internet signals would be processed. CableLabs was burned badly by some of the problems and costs that USA cable system operators incurred during the transition from DOCSIS 2.0 to DOCSIS 3.0. It was not the "plug and play" changeover that had been originally promised. At one of the past Cable Shows the proposed new standard was called 3.X. X in roman numerals is 10. The cryptic hint was a warning that the new standard was so different than 3.0 that it should really be called DOCSIS 4.0. In the end CableLabs was too scared of capital investment hating stockholders to call it 4.0 and opted for 3.1 instead.

The US Navy did something similar with the naming of the F18 Super Hornet, they called it that, so it sounded like a minor upgrade over the F18 Hornet, while in fact it was 70% all new.

Yakuza

1Gb - I don't think I'll need it but...IwantitIwantitIwantitIwantitIwantitIwantit!

Gonzo

Yakuza wrote: »

1Gb - I don't think I'll need it but...IwantitIwantitIwantitIwantitIwantitIwantit!

I'd be dancing on the ceiling if I could get more than 10meg broadband! People who have UPC have no idea how well they are off!

Freddy Smelly

bk wrote: »

Because rolling out cable infrastructure is VERY expensive to do.

UPC are a private company and they will carefully study the costs of rolling out their infrastructure to new areas, versus the potential customers they might win in those areas.

Up till now it has made far more financial sense to focus on areas that already have UPC cable (and thus customers) and focus on upgrading that infrastructure and winning as many people from Eircom and Sky in those areas.

Expanding to new areas has been a low priority until now. They may eventually decide to expand to new areas, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There are still parts of the existing cable network that still need to be upgraded first (areas with just DOCSIS 2 gear, insufficient fibre and areas that are fed by MMDS and microwave!!).

However there is some good news here, it seems that the ESB are planning on rolling out Fibre To The Home and it seems they specifically plan to target those urban and semi-urban areas that aren't currently served by UPC.

So the towns you mention may end up getting ESB high speed fibre to compete with Eircom, which would be almost just as good as UPC.



To be honest, I was surprised that they got the capital to do this VDSL rollout.

But the rollout has been far more extensive then I could have imagined and it seems to have gone far more smoothly then expected and is way ahead of schedule. So much so, that they are not extending it to cover an extra 400,000 premises!

To be honest I've been really impressed by this VDSL rollout by Eircom, so perhaps things are finally stabilising at Eircom and they just might get the capital to invest in fibre long term.

to be fair to eircom they have reduce their debt from 4b to 2.4b in only a few years... when the gov sold telecom eireann the initial major investors raped eircom for everything it was worth which is what stiffled broadband for the following decade.

Cuddlesworth

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

to be fair to eircom they have reduce their debt from 4b to 2.4b in only a few years... when the gov sold telecom eireann the initial major investors raped eircom for everything it was worth which is what stiffled broadband for the following decade.

My understanding is that they didn't reduce the debt, it was written off in a sale to another investor.

bk

Sorry, I know I'm dragging up an old thread here,but it is relevant, I thought people might be interested to know that there has been lots of developments with Docsis 3.1 recently.

The first two DOCSIS 3.1 chipsets from chipmakers have been introduced. These chips are needed to allow D3.1 modems to be built:

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/the-chips-fall-for-docsis-31-/d/d-id/712922

Liberty Global (UPC's owners) is already trialling 1Gb/s in the UK and has announced that it plans to introduce the technology more widely in the second half of this year:

But, as part of that presentation, Liberty Global also highlighted its plans to introduce the next-gen DOCSIS 3.1 cable broadband spec in its 14-nation European footprint, beginning in the second half of the year. The plans call for trials of 1 Gig service using D3.1 and then ramping up downstream speeds to the spec's 10 Gbit/s limit sometime after commercial deployments start.

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/liberty-global-preps-broadband-blitz/d/d-id/713767

Very interesting, DC3.1 seems to be coming quicker then expected. But I still wouldn't expect this tech to widely hit Ireland until next year.

Great to see UPC aren't easing up on driving higher speeds. While we are all quiet excited about FTTH from Eircom and ESB, in reality we are likely to see 1Gb/s speeds from UPC using this technology rolled out to people much sooner and to more people much faster then rolling out FTTH will likely take.

Isn't competition great

dxhound2005

bk wrote: »

Sorry, I know I'm dragging up an old thread here,but it is relevant, I thought people might be interested to know that there has been lots of developments with Docsis 3.1 recently.

The first two DOCSIS 3.1 chipsets from chipmakers have been introduced. These chips are needed to allow D3.1 modems to be built:

http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/the-chips-fall-for-docsis-31-/d/d-id/712922

Liberty Global (UPC's owners) is already trialling 1Gb/s in the UK and has announced that it plans to introduce the technology more widely in the second half of this year:



http://www.lightreading.com/cable-video/docsis/liberty-global-preps-broadband-blitz/d/d-id/713767

Very interesting, DC3.1 seems to be coming quicker then expected. But I still wouldn't expect this tech to widely hit Ireland until next year.

Great to see UPC aren't easing up on driving higher speeds. While we are all quiet excited about FTTH from Eircom and ESB, in reality we are likely to see 1Gb/s speeds from UPC using this technology rolled out to people much sooner and to more people much faster then rolling out FTTH will likely take.

Isn't competition great

More people maybe but not more places. I know we covered this before but they don't even offer a basic product to whole swathes of the country e.g. they have no presence at all in Cavan or Monaghan. This will just annoy the country people even more.

Isn't cherrypicking great.

Calibos

7 adults in our household, most gaming, youtubing, streaming, torrenting, browsing all day long. Our 120mbit connection never broke a sweat never mind our current 245mbit. What home could ever need 1gbit?

Myrddin

Calibos wrote: »

7 adults in our household, most gaming, youtubing, streaming, torrenting, browsing all day long. Our 120mbit connection never broke a sweat never mind our current 245mbit. What home could ever need 1gbit?

If you've dipped your feet into modern console gaming (and pc gaming too), it's clear to see that buying digitally is becoming a total pain, with downloads exceeding >30GB. It's quicker to get a bus into town & just buy the game rather than download it I'd imagine similarly with streaming, as resolution climbs, so does bandwidth needed too. Many years back when broadband was first introduced here, I think it was .5Mb or something along those lines...& it took care of everything you could throw at it. As times change, so do out requirements. This is just UPC making sure they're not left behind as technology & our expectations it it continue to grow...

Calibos

Its all well and good being able to download the 30gig game in 5 instead of the 20 minutes it would take with my current 245mbit but do I have a hope of getting 1gbit download from Steam anyway?

murphaph

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Isn't cherrypicking great.

UPC didn't force huge numbers of people to build houses on one off plots in Cavan and elsewhere now did they?

Cuddlesworth

Calibos wrote: »

Its all well and good being able to download the 30gig game in 5 instead of the 20 minutes it would take with my current 245mbit but do I have a hope of getting 1gbit download from Steam anyway?

More like 3 minutes and yes, you do. Steam have good core links underutilized outside of release day for AAA titles.

I'd be interested to see if UPC IRL continue with both their policy of no bridge mode and handing out low tier overworked equipment if and when they implement 3.1.

ED E

Lets not make this another f'cking rural broadband thread. We have at least 6 already....

grbear

If they are rolling out these sort of speeds to customers I have to wonder are they planning on introducing additional services that take advantages of these sort of speeds. I know Nvidia are bringing out game streaming services which need high speed connections so is it possible for UPC to offer a games on demand service that works through their current set top box or would they need a new box to enable that.

OneEightSeven

dxhound2005 wrote: »

More people maybe but not more places. I know we covered this before but they don't even offer a basic product to whole swathes of the country e.g. they have no presence at all in Cavan or Monaghan. This will just annoy the country people even more.

I'm sure UPC would offer their product if these areas were profitable or accessible. UPC attach their cables to fascia boards on people's houses, if there are no ducts to run the cables through. The problem with this is: people objecting to having cables hanging from their neighbour's house to theirs as it affects the aesthetics of their home (which, I believe, is very selfish of them). In my estate, for instance, there is a 3 foot alleyway between most houses, then there could be a gap of 10 15 feet between rooftops depending on whether they have two or three room upstairs and the front of the house. Some houses in my estate do have UPC's cables running behind their backgardens, but they stop 4 doors short of mine. I actually don't believe UPC are live in my estate, but they're certainly live in new housing estate because they're usually built with ducts. Many townhouses have UPC because they can hide the cables under the gutters.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Isn't cherrypicking great.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the term because you're using it in the wrong context. Cherry-picking is a fallacious argument during a discussion. Contrary to your own naive belief, UPC don't select certain areas just to piss people off. There is no money to be made by pissing people off. You can hardly blame UPC for the layout of Ireland's homes and population distribution, that's down to a lack of government regulations. Even if the government introduced a regulation during first roll-out of cable TV, where every newly-constructed housing estates must have ducts running through the front gardens, then UPC would have gotten better access to its potential customers.

bk

MOD: Can we keep this thread on topic. This is about DOCSIS 3.1 and not about areas that UPC don't service or rural broadband.

Roughly half the homes in Ireland have UPC. The prospect that they could all be getting 1Gb/s speeds by next year is very exciting and very positive for the Irish Broadband market.

Nollog

Looks like I'll have a hard choice to make in a year or two, with eircom, upc, and evolve offering gigabit.

good times.

Cuddlesworth

bk wrote: »

MOD: Can we keep this thread on topic. This is about DOCSIS 3.1 and not about areas that UPC don't service or rural broadband.

Roughly half the homes in Ireland have UPC. The prospect that they could all be getting 1Gb/s speeds by next year is very exciting and very positive for the Irish Broadband market.

Yeah, I can't wait for all the posts in this forum.

"I got 1 gig from UPC but my speedtest only shows 90Mb. And my connection keeps dying every 20 minutes."

bk

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

"I got 1 gig from UPC but my speedtest only shows 90Mb. And my connection keeps dying every 20 minutes."

Well, DOCSIS 3.1 will require new modems and given the UPC Ireland now reports to Virgin Media in the UK and VM have by far the best routers of any ISP in the UK (dual band, dual radio 802.11ac models, with excellent wifi performance and bridging officially supported), I'm hoping we will see much better routers in future from UPC.

Of course even with 802.11ac you still won't get 1Gb/s over wireless (400 to 500Mb/s over AC is more likely) and we will still have plenty of people on old n wireless PC's getting nowhere near even those speeds.

Dave..M

I note that UPC have upped their 240MB package to 55 from 45, perhaps to cool demand for the product, I also note that their adverts for 240 (The email I got post price change for example) notes '85% of your speed the majority of the time'. I think these are indicative of UPC's realization (certainly in the older upgrade areas) of the need to push fiber deeper into their loop ahead of their docsis 3.1 products official launch (the cringeworthy 'gigasphere' name will hopefully fade away) although presumably the higher speeds will be aimed at marketing literature and business users for the first while, full docsis 3 speeds (500) are only available to business users for example so the network in these areas is fiber deep already. In any event these things only cause other providers to up their game quicker which is good for everyone.

bk

Dave..M wrote: »

I note that UPC have upped their 240MB package to 55 from 45

Oh, that is disappointing! Also the 120Mb/s up from €40 to €45

Though there seems to be positive changes in the phone packages.

The 240Mb/s package now seems to include unlimited calls to landlines and mobiles in 22 countries (up from 400 minutes to just international landlines).

The 120Mb/s package now includes unlimited calls to Irish landlines and mobiles and 400 minutes international (before it didn't include mobiles).

However I'd say most people wouldn't care about these changes and just see it as a price increase.

I agree the 240Mb/s product most have been too popular and most have been straining their network.

bk

I came across this incredibly interesting presentation about cable networks, DOCSIS 3.1, the upgrade phases involved with it and the cost trade off versus FTTH here:

https://tfictfg.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/16-harris-impacts-on-cable-hfc-networks.pdf

Some interesting points from it.

- In order to reach 1Gb/s services, it looks like UPC would need to turn off their analogue TV services in order to gain enough bandwidth to support it.

I wonder how UPC would handle this. While analogue TV is very old tech at this stage, I believe it is still very popular with many UPC customers as a way to get free multi-room and as a "free"/illegal TV add on to their Broadband only services.

I suppose they could just turn it off and make everyone upgrade to digital TV boxes. Perhaps they could offer a cheap 17 channel digital TV multi-room service for €2 or €3 per month per extra box.

More innovatively, I wonder if they might encode the 17 SD channels using Saorview compatible DVB-T/Mpeg4! All 17 SD channels would easily fit on just one channel, saving the space of 16 analogue channels for broadband and people could use their existing Saorview compatible TV's and STB's to continue getting cheap and easy multiroom.

Seems like an excellent compromise to me, but I wonder if there would be technical or licensing issues that would block this.

It doesn't seem to be a widespread thing, but it does look like other cable TV operators in Europe do this:

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/07/10/caiw-tests-dvb-t-over-cable/

- It seems that in future 10GB/s will be possible over cable using DOCSIS 3.1

In order to get to 5GB/s they would need to move to an all IP platform (in other words get rid of both analgoue and digital TV channels and move fully to an IPTV platform) over existing 1GHz cable.

In order to get to 10GB/s they would need to move to all IP platform and also upgrade the RF amplifiers, etc. and maybe cable to support 1.7GHz cable.

It is also likely node splitting and increased cable backhaul would be required.

- Another interesting idea starting to be though about is moving the RF head end very close to the customer in a similar way to FTT Node or even FTT Dp in telephone networks. Having Fiber very close to the customers house, and then using very high quality coax for the last few hundred meters could deliver incredibly high speeds. Without the need to dig up peoples homes to lay FTTH.

Interesting times ahead.

Nollog

They've been trying to get people off analogue for years.

No idea how the dish thing they do works, but if it's not analogue, I can see them dropping analogue no problem.

bk

/\/ollog wrote: »

They've been trying to get people off analogue for years.

No idea how the dish thing they do works, but if it's not analogue, I can see them dropping analogue no problem.

MMDS do you mean? It is all digital.

They already have no analogue service in Cork (Cork used a weird scrambling system in the past).

However I do think their analogue service is still important for the rest of their network, where many customers are still exclusively signed up for it.

The Cush

bk wrote: »

More innovatively, I wonder if they might encode the 17 SD channels using Saorview compatible DVB-T/Mpeg4! All 17 SD channels would easily fit on just one channel, saving the space of 16 analogue channels for broadband and people could use their existing Saorview compatible TV's and STB's to continue getting cheap and easy multiroom.

Seems like an excellent compromise to me, but I wonder if there would be technical or licensing issues that would block this.

It doesn't seem to be a widespread thing, but it does look like other cable TV operators in Europe do this:

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/07/10/caiw-tests-dvb-t-over-cable/

At least 1 Irish cable company offers it channels using DVB-T with both MPEG-2/-4 decoding over cable (http://www.crossan.ie/index.php/faqs/why-wont-my-digital-tv-tune-to-the-service-correctly/), don't know of any other here or abroad. Probably not widely used as it wouldn't be as spectrum efficient as DVB-C.

17 SD channels would require at least require 2 muxes for any sort of decent audio/video quality. I remember a few years ago a temp version of RTÉ2 on Saorview running at about 1Mbps and the video quality was dire. 3e currently uses about 2Mbps (IIRC) of useful mux capacity (c. 23 Mbps).

On the UPC cable networks in Holland and Switzerland a package of unencrypted basic channels are made available using the DVB-C standard that can be viewed using any DVB-C TV or STB in the home (basic sub required). This done to encourage the large analogue subscriber base on these networks away from analogue TV to digital.

bk wrote: »

They already have no analogue service in Cork (Cork used a weird scrambling system in the past).

UPC cable in Cork still carries the 4 traditional channels - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93434879

bk

The Cush wrote: »

At least 1 Irish cable company offers it channels using DVB-T with both MPEG-2/-4 decoding over cable (http://www.crossan.ie/index.php/faqs/why-wont-my-digital-tv-tune-to-the-service-correctly/), don't know of any other here or abroad. Probably not widely used as it wouldn't be as spectrum efficient as DVB-C.

Very interesting, that setup is exactly what I was thinking UPC could do.

100+ digital channels for just €16 per month! That is fantastic value for money. And it includes free digital multiroom and no digital boxes needed if your TV's support saorview.

A really wonderful service. Though I'd imagine the service suffers from lack of good PVR and series link solution.

Shows how expensive UPC's TV service has gotten in recent years, starting at €30 for just 50 channels or 4 times more expensive then this service!

The Cush wrote: »

17 SD channels would require at least require 2 muxes for any sort of decent audio/video quality. I remember a few years ago a temp version of RTÉ2 on Saorview running at about 1Mbps and the video quality was dire. 3e currently uses about 2Mbps (IIRC) of useful mux capacity (c. 23 Mbps).

You could probably get away with 1.5Mb/s with MPEG4 for SD, like Netflix seemingly uses for its SD service. I use to have Smarts MPEG4 IPTV service that used 2Mb/s and that was superb, almost DVD like.

You could possibly fit all 17 channels at 1.5Mb/s in one DVB-T mux. DVB-T at the extreme of it's specs (64-QAM, etc.) allows up to 31Mb/s per mux.

However I agree that would be a very tight fit and 2 muxes would be much better. Even then going from 17 channels down to just 2 would be a massive bandwidth saving for UPC and would likely allow them to easily deploy 1Gb/s services.

The Cush wrote: »

On the UPC cable networks in Holland and Switzerland a package of unencrypted basic channels are made available using the DVB-C standard that can be viewed using any DVB-C TV or STB in the home (basic sub required). This done to encourage the large analogue subscriber base on these networks away from analogue TV to digital.

Yup and they could do the same here in Ireland. Though I think going DVB-T would be better for UPC Ireland. Few TV's sold in Ireland are DVB-C compatible, however DVB-T/Saorview is much more common.

Yes DVB-C is much more efficient then DVB-T and it would be even more efficient when you consider they could simply just turn off the encryption on the 17 channels currently carried on the digital service, rather then duplicating them on the DVB-T mux. But the downside is UPC would likely need to sell lots of decoder boxes to support the people switching over from analogue TV service.

Nollog

bk wrote: »

MMDS do you mean? It is all digital.

They already have no analogue service in Cork (Cork used a weird scrambling system in the past).

However I do think their analogue service is still important for the rest of their network, where many customers are still exclusively signed up for it.

That's it, mmds.

They actively call everyone on analog-only to offer them pretty decent upgrade offers.
Have been for a pretty long time.

The Cush

/\/ollog wrote: »

That's it, mmds.

They actively call everyone on analog-only to offer them pretty decent upgrade offers.
Have been for a pretty long time.

The MMDS service ends April 2016, for those living in rural/non-cabled areas UPC has no replacement service for these subscribers (30,200 end Dec).

Analogue only cable subscribers are down to about 40,000 at the end of Dec with an average reduction of about 10,000 p.a. for the last few years.

bk

The Cush wrote: »

The MMDS service ends April 2016, for those living in rural/non-cabled areas UPC has no replacement service for these subscribers (30,200 end Dec).

Really, there is little reason for MMDS to continue to exist. It offers far less then Sky for the same money!

I expect UPC will happily close this service down, perhaps to a deal to move the remaining customers over to Sky for free.

The Cush wrote: »

Analogue only cable subscribers are down to about 40,000 at the end of Dec with an average reduction of about 10,000 p.a. for the last few years.

That figure can be misleading, I expect there are many if not most digital and broadband only customers using the analogue TV service for free multiroom. I think UPC would get a lot of customer resistance if they tried turning it off with no alternative.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I understand this thread is a bit old now but didn't want to start a new thread.

Are Virgin Media running DOCSIS 3.1 on any part of their network yet? Lab tests started in 2014 with a rollout due 2016. I believe the new VM modem supports the 3.1

Does anyone have any update on the VM rollout of the 3.1 standard?

Gonzo

back when Virgin Media were known as UPC they were making quick advances, keeping close to other UPC networks throughout Europe, since changing brand to Virgin Media very little positive changes has happened and their service in the UK isn't even as fast as here. I'm wondering are we gonna see VM upgrade speeds at a slower pace compared to when they were known as UPC. I thought VM would easily have a 500 meg package by now. Once Eir's FTTH network reachs more people VM will have to upgrade anyway and provider most users with new modems.

zg3409

What I heard years ago is the backbone to each area is 4Gb/s and that is shared out to all users in an area over the coax cable to each house. Naturally virgin voice is given priority & business & high tier are next priority, while home users are lower priority. Assuming an area has say 500 houses, 50 businesses that would mean 500Mb service would need them to upgrade the fibre which may be easy as normally they have spare strands (called dark fibre) and can upgrade the equipment on both ends. Docsis applies only between the backbone cabinet and the homes, and they can run multiple systems and they could add loads of capacity if they removed the 17 analogue channels.

I don't think capacity is really the issue, but adding more capacity would cost more money, which will only happen if there is a business case, which would only apply if they are losing customers to competitions. Definitely fibre to the phone cabinet exists and is live in many UPC areas, and those with Sky Satellite TV are being bombarded with their quite expensive over phone line to the nearest phone cabinet service.

I would have thought a more budget service would be a better grabber or keeper of users, although it seems these are offered but only to those threatening to leave. In many cases, by the time they call Virgin, they have already signed up to a competing service. Its simply a numbers game. The technology exists and is available, at a price.

random_punter_2

>What I heard years ago is the backbone to each area is 4Gb/s

I dont see why backhaul would be 4gbs, if they are running an IP backbone over fiber surely the aggregation speeds would be industry standard which is 1gb, 10gbs, 40gbs, 100gbs.

Cuddlesworth

random_punter_2 wrote: »

>What I heard years ago is the backbone to each area is 4Gb/s

I dont see why backhaul would be 4gbs, if they are running an IP backbone over fiber surely the aggregation speeds would be industry standard which is 1gb, 10gbs, 40gbs, 100gbs.

Its a standard in Fibre channel, so not really applicable here. Its probably just four 1 gig single mode links bonded over 8 cables. Which could be upgraded to 40gigs but would require equipment overhaul.

Its probably worth noting that 4gbps is more then enough for most estates anyway. You would require a large number of customers pulling down at max speeds and in reality, this doesn't happen outside of torrents.

digiman

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Its a standard in Fibre channel, so not really applicable here. Its probably just four 1 gig single mode links bonded over 8 cables. Which could be upgraded to 40gigs but would require equipment overhaul.

Its probably worth noting that 4gbps is more then enough for most estates anyway. You would require a large number of customers pulling down at max speeds and in reality, this doesn't happen outside of torrents.

At todays traffic levels, 4Gb/s would be fine for around 1-1.5k customers without anyone seeing congestion.

lotas

digiman wrote: »

At todays traffic levels, 4Gb/s would be fine for around 1-1.5k customers without anyone seeing congestion.

4K netflix needs at least 25mb/s to stream properly... thats about 167 people watching 4k streams at peak hours, and your bandwidth is used... yea, most people dont have 4k TVs, but I can still see 4g being saturated soon enough...