Ireland's wings

Leinstertomas

Who should be the Ireland wings for the 6 Nations?

shuffol

Earls and Bowe

CatFromHue

I really liked the way Gilroy played last season, if he can get that back I'd have him and Earls.

Bowe hasn't been great recently so I wouldn't be too keen on him.

Fireball07

Depends who is in form.


We've got lots of choice....... Bowe, Earls, Zebo, Gilroy, Trimble, Fitzgerald...and then McFadden was excellent during the AIs, while Schmidt trusted Kearney to start against NZ and he did well.

.ak

We're really in rude health. I'd be happy with any of Bowe, McFadden, Earls, Fitzgerald, Zebo, Gilroy or Kearney.

Hagz

Zebo and Bowe please.

H_S

If Zebo was fit you would have to go with him and Bowe but I think Kearney could be a surprise pick for one reason or another

awec

I think Bowe, Earls and Zebo are the first choice trio (a combo of the two obviously) - the rest come into the equation after injuries.

I'd go for Earls and Bowe.

CatFromHue

Surprised to see Bowe mentioned so much as he's been in and out of injury for so long now and his recent form has been iffy.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

Surprised to see Bowe mentioned so much as he's been in and out of injury for so long now and his recent form has been iffy.

Meh. He's allowed a slight dip in form. Probably one of the most consistent back three players in Europe. Even though he had an 'iffy' AI he still didn't do much wrong.

Form is temporary, class is permanent etc., etc.

CatFromHue

With the competition we have now in the wing position where there's two, and in Ulster 3, players in each of the big three provinces all who have played for Ireland that a slight dip of form could have you out of the team.

thebaz

.ak wrote: »

Meh. He's allowed a slight dip in form. Probably one of the most consistent back three players in Europe. Even though he had an 'iffy' AI he still didn't do much wrong.

Form is temporary, class is permanent etc., etc.

thought he was pretty average in the AI's , and its been a long time (injury induced ) since he has been at his best - I'd go with McFadden and Zebo (if fit)

Kanrith

thebaz wrote: »

thought he was pretty average in the AI's , and its been a long time (injury induced ) since he has been at his best - I'd go with McFadden and Zebo (if fit)

Tbf Bowe was in great form before and during the Lions tour until he got that hand injury. Could easily come back to his best by the six nations.

shuffol

I dont think Bowe was that bad in the AI's, just below his usual standards, if he recaptures his form it'd be great because he'd fit Schmidts style of play perfectly. I think he and Zebo under Schmidt could be excellent but I see Earls being a more consistent performer for Munster and more likely to force his way in.

Exile22

Bowe is frankly only of our best players but I think form should dictate who is played just as much as potential ability. If he's not in great form in the six nations I wouldn't mind giving him a chance but there are plenty of wings out there to take his place if he is not playing to his best and really I'd like to see a few wings tried out over the tournament.

Zebo, Bowe first choice at the moment but I'd also like to see Gilroy get a good shot. Think he could be fantastic for Ireland, he's one of the most threatening backs in the country at the moment and offers a spark and dancing feet that most of our other wings don't. Earls too is in great form and deserves a crack at the left wing. McFadden was industrious as always and impressed me during the AI's and I think DK put in a good game as well against New Zealand. I think it's important that Schmidt gives all these players a chance at some point as it's the start of a new era and it might take a while before we find a style that suits us and works to our best strengths.

Teferi

On form and uninjured it will be Bowe and Earls with Zebo and Fitz in hot pursuit followed by any of Trimble, Gilroy and McFadden with Kearney bringing up the rear. I'm sure I'm forgetting others too. Point is that we have a large stock of good wingers, not an area for immediate concern.

jm08

Some insightful comments from ROG in his excellent Irish Examiner column:

This is my Keith Earls Theory. I see so much to work with in training with Earls, stuff you would never see as an opposition coach, even one as partial to detail as Schmidt.

Keith is a class player, but there so much more in the tin from him. He’s Ireland’s most explosive back, and in training he’s the one who troubles Brian O’Driscoll as an outside centre every time.

But a casual observer hears of Earls and thinks of Manu Tuilagi steamrolling over him in the World Cup warm-up game at the Aviva in 2011. But I’d be in awe watching the lad training some days. The one answer I don’t have is where his best position is. Is he the 13, is he better off left wing, and if he is, where is Zebo going to go? He has that power and explosiveness in attack, and as a defensive centre, it’s more about reading and match intelligence than strength, even though he is not lacking in that department.

The new Irish coach has already identified Robbie Henshaw as something he can work with in the guise of a Welsh back, an Alex Cuthbert or a George North. Schmidt used camp to see what he can shape him into because he is something different to the average Irish back. There is serious size there to work with.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-ogara-ronan-ogara-learning-the-lessons-and-closing-the-deal-251153.html

Teferi

You always use someone elses article or quote to try make a point without really saying anything, what point are you trying to make? Preferably use your own words.

If it's "Keith Earls is a centre" perhaps that would belong in a thread not about wingers (and as a happy coincidence one I will know not to open)?

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

You always use someone elses article or quote to try make a point without really saying anything, what point are you trying to make? Preferably use your own words.

If it's "Keith Earls is a centre" perhaps that would belong in a thread not about wingers (and as a happy coincidence one I will know not to open)?

I'm not trying to make any point. I think its a useful insight as to what a coach sees.

If you read the article you would see that ROG makes the point that even someone like Schmidt would only see about 10% of a player's ability from observing them playing/outside of coaching them.

edit: ROG also says that in training Earls is the best attacking back option. He also says he doesn't know what his best position is.

Teferi

Okay.

I still don't really see the relevance or perhaps I'm not understanding why you posted that.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Okay.

I still don't really see the relevance or perhaps I'm not understanding why you posted that.

There is inside information on 3 players there. It would seem from ROG's comments that Zebo & Earls are very high up in the pecking order. And the bit about Henshaw being a Welsh back type option is interesting to know.

Neil3030

Will Schmidt not see Earls in training for Ireland? I can't really see the point ROG is making either...

awec

Anyone who drags this thread into the Earls as a centre roundabout argument will get themselves an infraction and will be forced to watch the last 10 minutes of the New Zealand game on repeat until you are going to bed at night dreaming of Ryan Crotty.

Not only is it off topic for this thread, but we have heard it all before. Multiple times.

PlayerTrader13

jm08 wrote: »

There is inside information on 3 players there. It would seem from ROG's comments that Zebo & Earls are very high up in the pecking order. And the bit about Henshaw being a Welsh back type option is interesting to know.

what comments about zebo?

it would seem from his comments that earls is very high up his pecking order..

"Henshaw being a Welsh type back"

that bascially means he is big

jm08

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

what comments about zebo?

it would seem from his comments that earls is very high up his pecking order..

"Henshaw being a Welsh type back"

that bascially means he is big

By saying that if Earls is played on the wing, how do you get Zebo into the team (implying that Zebo is a must in the team).

He mentions Henshaw as a George North or Alex Cuthbert who are both wingers. Schmidt is looking to use Henshaw as a wing option, not a fullback.

thebaz

Keith Earls , has yet to deliver on the International stage , certainly to my eyes, regardless of what rog says, some players fail to make the jump up to this level , just a fact of life - thought McFadden looked very lively in the AI's , and for me right now is rightly ahead of Earls.

Fireball07

thebaz wrote: »

Keith Earls , has yet to deliver on the International stage , certainly to my eyes, regardless of what rog says, some players fail to make the jump up to this level , just a fact of life - thought McFadden looked very lively in the AI's , and for me right now is rightly ahead of Earls.

I disagree with the parts in bold.

DDC1990

Though McFadden impressed this autumn, I think Zebo and Bowe should be first choice with Earls as 23.

Luck Fitz coming back from Injury, Dave Kearney, Gilroy and McFadden are all good options if the first 3 aren't fit/in form.

Zebo, Bowe and Earls have the X-Factor on their day though, which would lead me to pick them first if everyone is fit.

fitz

Based on this season's form, I think Zebo should be way down the list tbh.

Tox56

DDC1990 wrote: »

Though McFadden impressed this autumn, I think Zebo and Bowe should be first choice with Earls as 23.

Luck Fitz coming back from Injury, Dave Kearney, Gilroy and McFadden are all good options if the first 3 aren't fit/in form.

Zebo, Bowe and Earls have the X-Factor on their day though, which would lead me to pick them first if everyone is fit.

Fitzgerald and Gilroy definitely have 'x factor' too, those 2 plus the three you mention are a step ahead of the rest (DK, McF, Trimble) for me

former legend

I think on ability, Bowe and Earls are the top two, but going on recent form it would be McFadden and Earls getting the jerseys.

Realistically, the decision as to who starts the first 6N game will depend on the next 4 rounds of the HC; that will put Zebo and McFadden at a bit of a disadvantage as they're going to miss at least two of them, but also Gilroy could find himself on the bench for Ulster and one of Luke or Dave K is going to be benching for Leinster as well.

DDC1990

Tox56 wrote: »

Fitzgerald and Gilroy definitely have 'x factor' too, those 2 plus the three you mention are a step ahead of the rest (DK, McF, Trimble) for me

I agree, I should have phrased that better.

Luke Fitz and Gilroy certainly can change a game almost singalhandedly.

I didn't mean to dismiss them. I would be happy to see any of the wingers mentioned line up in the Green shirt come 6N time.

I just feel that overall, Zebo, Bowe and Earls (totally my own opinion) have more total upside then the others.

Luke Fitz if back to his best would be at least on a par with Earls, he was a Lion after all.

darragh_haven

former legend wrote: »

I think on ability,

Realistically, the decision as to who starts the first 6N game will depend on the next 4 rounds of the HC;

Because there is a depth of talent in this area with alot of differing opinion on who the best 2 are, the above is exactly what will decided who starts the first 6N game (barring injury) and all our current opinions could be thrown out the window

CGD

Form over the recent internationals would have McFadden and Kearney as the wings. Bowe was poor enough and he missed and broke out of defense on numerous occasions and wasn't as calm and assured as he has usually been. He is I think the tallest winger so he will stay as size matters in this area as we won't go with 2 small wingers. I personally would go with Bowe & Kearney but could easily be Bowe and one of Kearney, Zebo or Gilroy hopefully the latter 2 come back well from injury and show good form after christmas to give Joe plenty of headaches. So for me Bowe plus A.N.Other with the 3 mentioned above the contenders

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

fitz wrote: »

Based on this season's form, I think Zebo should be way down the list tbh.

The three games he's played this season?

sydthebeat

people, people, people........havent we learned yet that schmidt picks horses for courses?

In my opinion the only winger that displays the most traits is Bowe and, form permitting, he will start ahead of others.
On the other side i can a variation of zebo, earls, mcfadden and DK being utilised depending on opposition.

For example against scotland i would not at all be surprised to see FMF start where we need a more abrasive winger and then saw zebo / earls v england where there would be more space outside.

I would be extremely surprised to see, injurys aside, the same wing combination start all 5 games in the 6N.

fitz

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

The three games he's played this season?

Might be a bit harsh, but people saying he's a starter is a bit much.
He's played four games this season and looked fairly sluggish I thought.
Once he gets back from injury, he should have to battle for his spot by showing form. I'd apply that to all our wingers tbh...I'm not sure any of them should be nailed on.

Also...Joe and horses for courses could see a lot more variation in wings than we're used to seeing.

Clearlier

Bowe is a class apart from the other wingers in attack, there's nobody else who runs lines like he does off BOD in particular but his passing is poor and his defensive judgement (for Ireland anyway) is terrible. He can certainly tackle and I don't for a moment see him shirking any defensive duties but his knowledge of defensive positioning and what action to take has been a real problem for a couple of years now. That said he gives us more options that any other players so if he can regain even a bit of form he's still a starter for me.

Earls is a physical freak who if he had the rugby brain to go with his physical talent would be an all time great but he hasn't and that limits his impact on the game. I don't know that he can be given the tools he needs to be great at this stage but you can't teach his strength and power.

I wondered what all the hype was about Zebo the first couple of times I saw him play, reasonably quick but a bit lightweight and I didn't see him come off his wing much. He was a revelation at full back though and I thought he developed his game quite a bit. I'm really interested to see how he develops and (if fit) he would be a starter for me.

Gilroy exploded onto the stage against a tired Argentinian team and surprised me a little by backing it up during the 6 nations - his hit on Halfpenny was a notably good defensive judgement in area I was concerned about. Like Zebo he still has a bit of developing to do but I'm excited to see where he can get to.

McFadden I have been critical about as a 'head down, plough into the defender' type of player. While there's still an element of that in his game I have to acknowledge that he has improved markedly. I don't think that he has the tools to be a top class player but I do see him as a solid backup option who'll get a lot of game time without ever being first choice.

David Kearney - a late developer perhaps. He did well against New Zealand but I still harbour some doubts about his ability at European cup level let alone international level. A very encouraging autumn series and I hope that he kicks on for Leinster and becomes a serious challenger for the national side.

Luke Fitzgerald - I've long hoped that he would make centre his position (thought he had a great game at 12 against New Zealand in Kidney's first autumn series) but the injuries allied to the immovable objects that are D'arcy and BOD have limited his opportunities there. As a winger I think that he does fine, he runs good lines in attack, is pretty good at linking with other players, good sidestep, maybe lacks a little bit of out and out pace but certainly no snail. His defence is a strong point which is a credit to him as it was really poor when he first arrived on the scene (as was BOD's incidentally). He worked it at it though and it's become a strong point. He's an intelligent player who always has options. He also has the unusual ability to hit the ground running which is unfortunately useful as he has picked up quite a lot of injuries. Although I wouldn't have him as first choice I would still be happy to see him starting (if that makes any sense!).

Andrew Trimble - Honest as the day is long. Strong runner, big hitter but not the nimblest player ever. He's also a poor passer of the ball which is unlikely to help him fit into Schmidt's plans. Given the alternatives I'm inclined to think that like Shane Horgan was not Kidney's kind of player (and never played for Ireland under him) Trimble won't get any chances under Schmidt.

jm08

I think you are a bit unfair on Shane Horgan there. His problem was the emergence of Tommy Bowe (who rarely got injured then) and some badly timed injuries.

danthefan

Probably Bowe and Zebo but considering how McFadden and D.Kearney played in the AIs, with Earls back fit, I honestly am not really bothered by who plays.

thebaz

Fireball07 wrote: »

I disagree with the parts in bold.

first part probably I'm wrong, but definitly think mcfadden is ahead of earls right now

who_me

Bowe would have been one of the first names on the team sheet in seasons past, but he's not at that level now. The whole form vs class argument is a bit funny - people tend to take whatever side gets the player they want in the team. For me, his form isn't where it was so his previously cast-iron position is potentially under threat.

Having said that, if you picked entirely on form, then Earls (when he hasn't been injured!) and McFadden (very lively in the AIs) would be the starting wings. I'm not sure many would pick those two. Hopefully Bowe and Zebo have a good injury-free run over the HEC rounds & Christmas derby games and we have good competition for the 2/3 spots.

who_me

Clearlier wrote: »

I wondered what all the hype was about Zebo the first couple of times I saw him play, reasonably quick but a bit lightweight and I didn't see him come off his wing much. He was a revelation at full back though and I thought he developed his game quite a bit. I'm really interested to see how he develops and (if fit) he would be a starter for me.

Zebo lightweight? I'd have thought he's one of our bigger backs since Horgan.

.ak

who_me wrote: »

Zebo lightweight? I'd have thought he's one of our bigger backs since Horgan.

He's not a bulky winger by any means. More likely to run around someone than run through them.

Clearlier

jm08 wrote: »

I think you are a bit unfair on Shane Horgan there. His problem was the emergence of Tommy Bowe (who rarely got injured then) and some badly timed injuries.

He also got into a run of bad form (for the first time in his career really) just as Kidney took over. Obviously I could be wrong but I don't think that Horgan was his type of player and when he did come back into form I don't think that he got much more than an invite or two to the enlarged camp training sessions. I'm not trying to say anything bad about him by the way, Shaggy had many great days for Ireland and a career to be proud of. The try against England in 2004 and the cross kick catch in Croke Park also against England are just two that stand out.

I just think that coaches have their own preferences which sometimes means that they won't select a player that another coach would have. If Eddie had been in charge for longer I'm convinced that Horgan would have had a few more caps. Another coach might well have picked Trimble instead of Dave Kearney. He's only 29 so it's not an age/developing for the future kind of thing. He's obviously got lots more experience and his track record when playing for Ireland is good. Schmidt was targeting the New Zealand game for a win. I don't think that there would have been too many complaints if he had selected Trimble (possibly a few less even).

I get the horses for courses argument and there might be a role for Trimble against someone like Italy but I suspect that we won't see him in an Ireland shirt while Schmidt is in charge.

danthefan

I really don't think McFadden has got nearly enough credit for his performance against Aus. He was excellent.

Yeah_Right

I was a big fan of Bowe's. Always thought he was class and should be one of the first names on the team sheet. However now I have my doubts and I just haven't seen anything great from him this season. The image that keeps coming to mind at the moment is Savea bumping him off with ease.

.ak

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I was a big fan of Bowe's. Always thought he was class and should be one of the first names on the team sheet. However now I have my doubts and I just haven't seen anything great from him this season. The image that keeps coming to mind at the moment is Savea bumping him off with ease.

He also did a lot right in the game, the high balls, the intercept, the rest of his tackling was very good.

Savea bumps EVERYONE with ease.

Yeah_Right

.ak wrote: »

He also did a lot right in the game, the high balls, the intercept, the rest of his tackling was very good.

Savea bumps EVERYONE with ease.

Very true. I just keep seeing it!!

jamiedav2011

danthefan wrote: »

I really don't think McFadden has got nearly enough credit for his performance against Aus. He was excellent.

Again, it's confirmation bias at play a little bit.
Bowe has a shocker of an Autumn and it's 'class is permanent', MCF has a stormer against the ABs and it's 'he's limited' etc.

Not saying that's completely wrong, but some players just get an easier ride and we all have inset opinions.
However, once you're aware of that and attempt to challenge yourself to think the other way I think that's a good thing.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Ya, of all the errors Bowe made this AI season, being bumped off by Savea isn't one I'd blame him for much