Merits of Taxsaver Scheme

ballooba

KD345 wrote: »

You can save over 50% in tax, PRSI and USC which is then offset against the price of your ticket. Basically the benefit to you is cheaper travel.

Save 50% versus what? A ticket price that no one would pay without tax saver. That is just a marketing spiel.

OP would be advised to apply some critical thinking and work out the benefits for them.

eigrod

Minier81 wrote: »

As far as I a aware you cannot change the ticket, because you have bought an annual ticket, and its your own fault if you don't use it, whether due to relocation / deciding not to use public transport / maternity leave etc. If you think you might not need it for the year it would be better to get monthly tickets.

You can give the ticket back at any stage and the travel company refund your employer. I think the travel company charge an additional month or something like that, but refund the balance. Once the employer gets back what they paid for it, the deductions from the employee's salary should then stop.

Minier81

eigrod wrote: »

You can give the ticket back at any stage and the travel company refund your employer. I think the travel company charge an additional month or something like that, but refund the balance. Once the employer gets back what they paid for it, the deductions from the employee's salary should then stop.

Even where the employee pays up front, some companies don't offer the option to pay monthly.....

Minier81

ballooba wrote: »

Save 50% versus what? A ticket price that no one would pay without tax saver. That is just a marketing spiel.

OP would be advised to apply some critical thinking and work out the benefits for them.

A 50% saving versus paying as you go. For me the annual ticket worked out at 12€ per week, whereas I was paying nearly 30€ per week on a leap card!!

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

Save 50% versus what? A ticket price that no one would pay without tax saver. That is just a marketing spiel.

OP would be advised to apply some critical thinking and work out the benefits for them.

Eh, many of us did buy monthly and annual passes before tax saver came about.

This has saved all of us a lot of money.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Eh, many of us did buy monthly and annual passes before tax saver came about.

This has saved all of us a lot of money.

I'm glad to hear you're so certain of the universal benefits. I'm not.

Why would anyone buy a Monthly Dublin Bus Travelwide for €123 when they could buy a Rambler 30 Day Adult for €125?

Why would anyone buy an Annual Dublin Bus Travelwide for €1230 when they could buy multiple a Rambler 30 Day Adult for €125 each?

The prices of the products available under tax saver make no economic sense for the overwhelming majority of users unless they benefit from the tax break. These products are an indirect subsidy to Dublin Bus, the other operators have more favourable products under the scheme I believe.

Minier81 wrote: »

A 50% saving versus paying as you go. For me the annual ticket worked out at 12€ per week, whereas I was paying nearly 30€ per week on a leap card!!

Do you use the bus twice a day every day? Including holidays?

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

I'm glad to hear you're so certain of the universal benefits. I'm not.

Why would anyone buy a Monthly Dublin Bus Travelwide for €123 when they could buy a Rambler 30 Day Adult for €125?

Why would anyone buy an Annual Dublin Bus Travelwide for €1230 when they could buy multiple a Rambler 30 Day Adult for €125 each?

The prices of the products available under tax saver make no economic sense for the overwhelming majority of users unless they benefit from the tax break. These products are an indirect subsidy to Dublin Bus, the other operators have more favourable products under the scheme I believe.

Do you use the bus twice a day every day? Including holidays?

My use of the phrase "all of us" referred to anyone who did buy a monthly or annual pass prior to the taxsaver scheme arriving.

The non-consecutive rambler tickets were not around prior to the Tax Saver scheme being introduced. They are a relatively recent arrival since they became smart cards. Therefore the only option was the monthly and annual pass, which for me paying the over 13 stages fare meant they were cheaper. The tax saver scheme further reduced that cost significantly.

Over the years I have commuted to work using a combination of bus and rail (and occasionally LUAS), so rambler tickets would have been of no use to me at the time. In my last job, I used 4 buses per day to get to/from work.

As I don't drive, I would tend to use the bus every single day (including weekends) - I generally go somewhere on my days off.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Over the years I have commuted to work using a combination of bus and rail (and occasionally LUAS), so rambler tickets would have been of no use to me at the time. In my last job, I used 4 buses per day to get to/from work.

Nor would a Dublin Bus only travel saver ticket. The economics change if you are using mixed mode. I've never analysed that because it doesn't apply to me, but I suspect that again the benefits are exaggerated.

Anyway...

For a person working 230 days per year and wishing to use the bus every single one of those days it would cost €958.33 per year to use 30 day ramblers.

The cost of a 30 day rambler is €4.17 per day. Hence it doesn't make sense to use this ticket on any day you are using the bus less than twice.

Even then for people who only need to take the bus twice per day it only makes sense if your usual fare would be over €1.90 with a Leap Card.

I appreciate all of this is very complicated. It's almost like Dublin Bus have an intentionally complicated fare structure to bamboozle people.;):eek: The thrust of what I am saying is don't believe everything you are told, the savings are more than likely much less than what Taxsaver tell you. Personally I think the Taxsaver tickets are poor value except for persons with very specific and less than usual circumstances.

AlekSmart

ballooba wrote: »

Nor would a Dublin Bus only travel saver ticket. The economics change if you are using mixed mode. I've never analysed that because it doesn't apply to me, but I suspect that again the benefits are exaggerated.

Even then for people who only need to take the bus twice per day it only makes sense if your usual fare would be over €1.90 with a Leap Card.

I appreciate all of this is very complicated. It's almost like Dublin Bus have an intentionally complicated fare structure to bamboozle people.;):eek: The thrust of what I am saying is don't believe everything you are told, the savings are more than likely much less than what Taxsaver tell you. Personally I think the Taxsaver tickets are poor value except for persons with very specific and less than usual circumstances.

I suppose the key element in this is that Taxsaver is NOT compulsory for anybody.

It is available to those who consider it a worthwhile means of paying their Public Transport fares,but should anybody wish to continue using the pre-existing methods then off they go.

It is quite obvious,that irrespective of Balooba's opinion,many people ARE finding the Taxsaver option suits them,and many more would switch over IF Employers were required to participate in the scheme rather than the current voluntary basis.

The marketing spiel for any product or service will ALWAYS focus on the maximum savings available and I believe most consumers are well aware of this.

To suggest that Taxsaver be dismissed on this basis is ,I fear,a bit overly negative.

One significant side effect of Taxsaver Ticket availability is that those who do accquire an Annual product in this way,tend to make greater use of it in situations which up to this they might have not considered,such as NiteLink,Airlink or indeed general off-peak Public Transport use.

Nobody is suggesting Taxsaver is a panacea,but it sure as hell has the capability to be a positive and inventive use of Public Funding ?

LXFlyer

Of course you have to sit down and do the figures - that's sort of basic intuition.

But in your simple analysis above, you're ignoring using the bus at weekends, days off, and possibly using the Nitelink, which many people do. For all of those people, which it would appear you are not, it would make sense to buy the monthly/annual pass even without taxsaver.

It boils down to what fares apply for your journey and how often you are going to use the bus.

Everyone has different circumstances.

The general thrust of the Tax Saver scheme is to encourage people to use public transport and that has to be a good thing.

ballooba

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suppose the key element in this is that Taxsaver is NOT compulsory for anybody.

Nobody said it was, but yet we are all paying for the subsidy it affords Dublin Bus through our taxes. The main benefit is to Dublin Bus and I would hazard a gues that majority of bus users would not benefit from the scheme. It's poor value unless you pay the highest marginal rate of tax AND are a very heavy user of the bus.

AlekSmart

ballooba wrote: »

Nobody said it was, but yet we are all paying for the subsidy it affords Dublin Bus through our taxes. The main benefit is to Dublin Bus and I would hazard a gues that majority of bus users would not benefit from the scheme. It's poor value unless you pay the highest marginal rate of tax AND are a very heavy user of the bus.

I'm going to suggest that if one is seking examples of "Poor Value" in taxation expenditure terms,then there will be a LONG list to be worked through before arriving at Taxsaver ?

kenon

I just received my annual short hop rail and bus ticket. This will cost me €681.60 for the year. I am current paying €166 a month (€1992 annually) on Leap, not including my near weekly Nitelink.

I am going to be on the bus, quaffing champagne on Monday.

KD345

ballooba wrote: »

Save 50% versus what? A ticket price that no one would pay without tax saver. That is just a marketing spiel.

OP would be advised to apply some critical thinking and work out the benefits for them.

I'd expect anybody making a purchase of any ticket would consider their needs and costs. I suspect that's why the OP made the post to begin with.

I can only speak for myself here, but using the tax saver annual bus and luas ticket works out at just over €1.90 per day. I use it daily for work and at weekends. I can also use it on the Nitelink, Airlink and Christmas late night Luas services. There is no other ticket which offers anywhere near that sort of value.

The tax saver website has a handy calculator to work out the savings - http://taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Calculator/Ticket-Calculator/

Of course the annual ticket doesn't suit occasional users of public transport, but in fairness it's not aimed at those people. Much like an annual movie pass is no benefit to someone who goes to the cinema once or twice a year.

AlekSmart

ballooba wrote: »

Nobody said it was, but yet we are all paying for the subsidy it affords Dublin Bus through our taxes. The main benefit is to Dublin Bus and I would hazard a gues that majority of bus users would not benefit from the scheme. It's poor value unless you pay the highest marginal rate of tax AND are a very heavy user of the bus.

Whilst the "main benefit" is currently to Dublin Bus (and it's customers),the actuality is that the Taxsaver princple can,and does ,apply to other operators also....

http://commuter.matthews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=5

http://wexfordbus.com/fares/wexford-dublin-city/

http://jjkavanagh.ie/en/timetables/taxsaver-commuter-ticket-scheme

http://www.collinscoaches.ie/index.php/dublin-commuter-service

Most,if not all operators providing a Licenced Commuter service have the capability to issue Taxsaver period tickets,and I'm sure that,as Kenon sez,many of their customers are benefitting from this use of the public purse ?

Sure,it can be used to reinforce a dislike of Dublin Bus,but for the moment DB is the pre-eminent operator so it's their customers who benefit most (but NOT entirely) from the Taxsaver concept.

I'm still not seeing it in the negative context though ?

Fratton Fred

The tax saver ticket is an absolute no Brainer of a decision.

I use bus and luas and the savings are substantial for me.

The best thing though, is my travel costs are sorted. I don't have to think about topping up, buying travel cards or anything.

Padraig Mor

ballooba wrote: »

Save 50% versus what? A ticket price that no one would pay without tax saver. That is just a marketing spiel.

OP would be advised to apply some critical thinking and work out the benefits for them.

The benefits most certainly can be huge. I used to have a combined rail / bus annual taxsaver. My daily trip (train and bus each way) used to cost me approx €6 per week net after tax relief etc. I saw people doing the same journey every day paying cash at a cost of approx €45 per week. Major saving! Don't forget that public sector workers also save the pension levy on the tickets price, giving a total 'discount' on the ticket face price of up to 62.5%

eigrod wrote: »

You can give the ticket back at any stage and the travel company refund your employer. I think the travel company charge an additional month or something like that, but refund the balance. Once the employer gets back what they paid for it, the deductions from the employee's salary should then stop.

Didn't work like that when I had one. You had to pony up the cash for the remainder of the year if you left.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Of course you have to sit down and do the figures - that's sort of basic intuition.

It's really not though. Most people are lazy in their analysis and this is exploited by people who market all kinds of products.

lxflyer wrote: »

But in your simple analysis above, you're ignoring using the bus at weekends, days off, and possibly using the Nitelink, which many people do. For all of those people, which it would appear you are not, it would make sense to buy the monthly/annual pass even without taxsaver.

A small minority?

lxflyer wrote: »

The general thrust of the Tax Saver scheme is to encourage people to use public transport and that has to be a good thing.

I would argue it's more to do with a subsidy for Dublin Bus.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm going to suggest that if one is seking examples of "Poor Value" in taxation expenditure terms,then there will be a LONG list to be worked through before arriving at Taxsaver ?

Poor value to the user of the ticket. The subsidy to Dublin Bus is another story.

ballooba

AlekSmart wrote: »

The marketing spiel for any product or service will ALWAYS focus on the maximum savings available and I believe most consumers are well aware of this.

The maximum savings are in comparison to a product that very few if any people would use. They are a fudge.

KD345 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here, but using the tax saver annual bus and luas ticket works out at just over €1.90 per day. I use it daily for work and at weekends. I can also use it on the Nitelink, Airlink and Christmas late night Luas services. There is no other ticket which offers anywhere near that sort of value.

The Luas tickets are good value. That's a completely different discussion. I haven't looked at the mixed mode tickets as they are not applicable to me, but I would supsect that Dublin Bus gets more than their fair share of your ticket.

KD345 wrote: »

Of course the annual ticket doesn't suit occasional users of public transport, but in fairness it's not aimed at those people. Much like an annual movie pass is no benefit to someone who goes to the cinema once or twice a year.

I'm not talking about occasional users. I'm talking about daily users.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whilst the "main benefit" is currently to Dublin Bus (and it's customers),the actuality is that the Taxsaver princple can,and does ,apply to other operators also....

Dublin Bus have a uniquely monopolistic position compared to other operators. Massively so, it's not comparable to others except maybe Irish Rail.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Sure,it can be used to reinforce a dislike of Dublin Bus,but for the moment DB is the pre-eminent operator so it's their customers who benefit most (but NOT entirely) from the Taxsaver concept.

I'm still not seeing it in the negative context though ?

That's just trolling. Also, they are the incumbent not "pre-eminent".

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

It's really not though. Most people are lazy in their analysis and this is exploited by people who market all kinds of products.

A small minority?

I would argue it's more to do with a subsidy for Dublin Bus.

Poor value to the user of the ticket. The subsidy to Dublin Bus is another story.

I'd fundamentally disagree with you on this.

Anyone looking at their costs, be it transport, power, phone etc. should sit down and do the maths. If they don't that's their own fault.

I'd argue quite a lot of people will use the bus at weekends - just because you don't doesn't mean plenty of other people don't.

The thrust of the policy was to get more people out of their cars and onto public transport. That's the reason for it. The prices of the tickets did not change dramatically when Tax Saver was introduced, and have increased in line with cash fares ever since, so where you are getting this idea that DB or any other operator is getting a higher subsidy is beyond me.

And why do you keep focussing on DB? Every other public transport operator in the country (including many private companies) offer the scheme too.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd fundamentally disagree with you on this.

Anyone looking at their costs, be it transport, power, phone etc. should sit down and do the maths. If they don't that's their own fault.

It doesn't help when there is massive marketing of these false savings and a handy calculator of lies. The only issue I took with the purported savings are that the annual and monthly tickets are products which for the overwhelming majority of users would make absolutely no sense. Any valid comparison would need to be versus the 30 day rambler, except for a tiny minority of users who use the bus every single day multiple times a day.

lxflyer wrote: »

And why do you keep focussing on DB? Every other public transport operator in the country (including many private companies) offer the scheme too.

Dublin Bus have a massively privileged position amounting to an effective monopoly and are unique in their abuse of this system. I just had a look at the Luas tax saver tickets and they are great value. Similarly it only costs a few quid extra a month to tack rail or luas onto a bus ticket which represents good value.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

It doesn't help when there is massive marketing of these false savings and a handy calculator of lies. The only issue I took with the purported savings are that the annual and monthly tickets are products which for the overwhelming majority of users would make absolutely no sense. Any valid comparison would need to be versus the 30 day rambler, except for a tiny minority of users who use the bus every single day multiple times a day.

Dublin Bus have a massively privileged position amounting to an effective monopoly and are unique in their abuse of this system. I just had a look at the Luas tax saver tickets and they are great value. Similarly it only costs a few quid extra a month to tack rail or luas onto a bus ticket which represents good value.

I think suggesting the company is "lying" really is going too far.

If you purchase an Annual Travelwide ticket for €1,230, the effective cost via the Tax Saver scheme is €590 if you are on the higher tax rate and €850 on the lower tax rate.

The cost of the 30 day rambler is increasing to €137.50, which would translate using your calculations above to an annual cost of €1,054.

Therefore, both of the tickets if purchased via Taxsaver are substantially cheaper than using a 30 day rambler ticket even if you only use the bus Monday/Friday, (€464 or €204 depending on your tax rate) and again offer the holder the option of using the bus at weekends and the use of the Nitelink at no extra cost.

Dublin Bus is not forcing anyone to use tax saver, nor are they hiding the rambler tickets on their website. If anything, they have the clearest section on tickets of the three main transport operators in the city, and have frequently marketed the rambler tickets.

I think you are underestimating people's intelligence in terms of being able to figure out the savings.

At the same time DB were quite innovative in offering the non-consecutive rambler ticket products - neither Irish Rail nor LUAS offer that.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

At the same time DB were quite innovative in offering the non-consecutive rambler ticket products - neither Irish Rail nor LUAS offer that.

I think that is going a bit too far. Dublin Bus have an archaic fare structure and innovative and progressive are among the two words I would last use to describe them.

The upshot is that some people will achieve savings using Dublin Bus only tax saver tickets, however they are highly unlikely to be anywhere near 50% savings for those set of people.

Mrs OBumble

ballooba wrote: »

Dublin Bus have a massively privileged position amounting to an effective monopoly and are unique in their abuse of this system. I just had a look at the Luas tax saver tickets and they are great value.

Dublin Bus provide no services at all for half of the residents of the Republic, (except perhaps when we come up on the 8th to do our shopping )

For anyone earning over 35k and commuting to work daily, tax-saver makes enormous sense.

I pay just over 50% of the NTA approved cost of a monthly ticket in my city. That's just over 1 euro per day. It's use is a total no-brainer.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

I think that is going a bit too far. Dublin Bus have an archaic fare structure and innovative and progressive are among the two words I would last use to describe them.

The upshot is that some people will achieve savings using Dublin Bus only tax saver tickets, however they are highly unlikely to be anywhere near 50% savings for those set of people.

Are you therefore saying that they should not be praised for introducing the non-consecutive smartcards, which you seem to be using all of the time?

You seem to be incapable of accepting that people are going to save money, despite me proving that they will. Nor do you seem to think that people use the buses at the weekend - I must be seeing ghosts every time I board a bus on a Saturday or Sunday.

As for the fare structure, DB tried to change it at the time of the EURO conversion to a flat fare structure, but the Department of Transport refused permission. Hence we've been stuck with it ever since.

Nowadays, the NTA hold responsibility for setting DB fares, prepaid ticket costs and the fare structure. So I would suggest that your argument is with them rather than DB.

Frankly your argument really comes across as a personalised rant against DB for whatever reason.

Devilman40k

ballooba wrote: »

I think that is going a bit too far. Dublin Bus have an archaic fare structure and innovative and progressive are among the two words I would last use to describe them.

The upshot is that some people will achieve savings using Dublin Bus only tax saver tickets, however they are highly unlikely to be anywhere near 50% savings for those set of people.

I can guarantee that the savings I have made in the past were at least 50% taking into account the following

4 buses per day at a cost of €9 per day (cash fare) x 230 thats €2070 p.a in cash fare alone.

30 day rambler my annual cost would be (taking 230 days = 8 x 30 day rambler tickets) €984

My annual taxsaver ticket will be €590 after the discount is applied

with the tax-saver though I have the option of being able to use it for the other 135 days of the year at NO COST to me. If I were to add 30 day rambler tickets all year round the cost is in the region of 1350 - 1470 p.a so the saving for me is MORE than 50%

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Are you therefore saying that they should not be praised for introducing the non-consecutive smartcards, which you seem to be using all of the time?

I use Leap because I don't take the bus everyday. I don't take the bus everyday because it is cheaper for me to drive because my partner works nearby. If I did take the bus every working day, then I would use a 30 Day Rambler. I don't think Dublin Bus should be unreproachable just for having some basic tickets that encourage frequent use of their services.

lxflyer wrote: »

You seem to be incapable of accepting that people are going to save money, despite me proving that they will. Nor do you seem to think that people use the buses at the weekend - I must be seeing ghosts every time I board a bus on a Saturday or Sunday.

That's hyperbole now. Steady on. I said nothing of the sort.

lxflyer wrote: »

As for the fare structure, DB tried to change it at the time of the EURO conversion to a flat fare structure, but the Department of Transport refused permission. Hence we've been stuck with it ever since.

Nowadays, the NTA hold responsibility for setting DB fares, prepaid ticket costs and the fare structure. So I would suggest that your argument is with them rather than DB.

Frankly your argument really comes across as a personalised rant against DB for whatever reason.

It must be great for Dublin Bus to have the bogey man of the NTA to hide behind now. If the NTA dramatically changed fares then Dublin Bus would collapse. Change is happening slowly and it's certainly not down to Dublin Bus, Luas by comparison is very customer friendly and customer driven.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

I use Leap because I don't take the bus everyday. I don't take the bus everyday because it is cheaper for me to drive because my partner works nearby.

That's hyperbole now. Steady on. I said nothing of the sort.

It must be great for Dublin Bus to have the bogey man of the NTA to hide behind now. If the NTA dramatically changed fares then Dublin Bus would collapse. Change is happening slowly and it's certainly not down to Dublin Bus, Luas by comparison is very customer friendly and customer driven.

Right, so you don't even use the 30 day rambler because you don't use the bus very much. How do you manage to then conclude that not many period pass holders don't use the bus at the weekends if you don't use it yourself?

As for who is responsible for the fare structure, again you seem to be just completely obsessed with (somewhat unfairly in this case I would suggest) trying to knock DB. I'd again refer to my post above and ask what part of this do you not understand?

lxflyer wrote: »

As for the fare structure, DB tried to change it at the time of the EURO conversion to a flat fare structure, but the Department of Transport refused permission. Hence we've been stuck with it ever since.

DB tried to dramatically change the structure, but were told by DoT - no. I'd suggest you might be better directing your ire in the direction of the DoT, who refused any change in fare structures.

As it is, the DB fare structure is going to change by 2015 - that much has been committed to by the NTA.

LUAS started from a blank page - it's hardly the same.

ballooba

Devilman40k wrote: »

I can guarantee that the savings I have made in the past were at least 50% taking into account the following

4 buses per day at a cost of €9 per day (cash fare) x 230 thats €2070 p.a in cash fare alone.

Why would you pay cash? That's nonsense.

Devilman40k wrote: »

30 day rambler my annual cost would be (taking 230 days = 8 x 30 day rambler tickets) €984

My annual taxsaver ticket will be €590 after the discount is applied

So that's 40% discount? (984 -590) / 984 = 0.399

Devilman40k wrote: »

with the tax-saver though I have the option of being able to use it for the other 135 days of the year at NO COST to me. If I were to add 30 day rambler tickets all year round the cost is in the region of 1350 - 1470 p.a so the saving for me is MORE than 50%

You're now including hypothetical days where you will not be going to work but will use the bus, to increase the savings beyond 40%. Your circumstances where you use the bus every single working day, and enough to justify one day of a 30 Day Rambler per working day are unique to you. Even then you need these hypothetical extra days to bring the savings above 40%.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Right, so you don't even use the 30 day rambler because you don't use the bus very much. How do you manage to then conclude that not many period pass holders don't use the bus at the weekends if you don't use it yourself?

How is extrapolating your use of the bus of the bus to others any more applicable to mine? I would suggest how I use the bus is as irrelevant or relevant to how you use the bus.

Devilman40k

ballooba wrote: »

You're now including hypothetical days where you will not be going to work but will use the bus to increase the savings beyong 40%

Well they aren't hypothetical...I do use the bus at least twice on a weekend and seeing as the fare for me to go anywhere of note is 4.80 return (at least) I am still saving 50% . And that does not include Nitelink/Airlink usage which I hypothetically might use

I'd have to buy an additional 2 ramblers to achieve the same usage

LXFlyer

Just to point out that the appropriate 30 day rambler price is the revised one of €137.50.

Hence the savings are greater than the calculations above.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

How is extrapolating your use of the bus of the bus to others any more applicable to mine? I would suggest how I use the bus is as irrelevant or relevant to how you use the bus.

It is relevant - as I can see other people using passes when I'm on the bus!!

There are significant numbers using their twin card wallets (ID card and ticket) being held against the reader.

You already admit you don't use the bus that much - how would you even know if people are using their passes or not?

If you're to put an argument forward, at least have some basis in fact rather than wild opinions and rants that appear in reality to be based on a personal attitude towards a company.

ballooba

Devilman40k wrote: »

Well they aren't hypothetical...I do use the bus at least twice on a weekend and seeing as the fare for me to go anywhere of note is 4.80 return (at least) I am still saving 50% . And that does not include Nitelink/Airlink usage which I hypothetically might use

I'd have to buy an additional 2 ramblers to achieve the same usage

Maybe you might be one of the tiny minority for whom the savings exceed 50%. Congratulations.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

It is relevant - as I can see other people using passes when I'm on the bus!!

I also see people not using passes. What's your point?

lxflyer wrote: »

You already admit you don't use the bus that much - how would you even know if people are using their passes or not?

How is that relevant?

lxflyer wrote: »

If you're to put an argument forward, at least have some basis in fact rather than wild opinions and rants that appear in reality to be based on a personal attitude towards a company.

Again, steady on.

Riskymove

ballooba wrote: »

Maybe you might be one of the tiny minority for whom the savings exceed 50%. Congratulations.

what's so magical about a 50% saving?

sure if its 40% or 30% so what, its still a signicant saving

ballooba

For clarity the following are the current Dublin Bus only ticket costs, hopefully this might be of use to people in deciding whether the ticket is economical for them:
Validity:|Monthly|Annual
"Full Price":|€123|€1,230
20% Marginal Rate Price:|€85|€850
41% Marginal Rate Price:|€59|€590
20% Marginal Rate Price per day*:|€4.43|€3.70
41% Marginal Rate Price per day*:|€3.07|€2.56
Short Return Leap:|€2.80|€2.80
Medium Return Leap:|€3.60|€3.60
30 Day Rambler Price per day**:|€4.16|€4.16
Long Return Leap:|€4.20|€4.20
Extra Long Return Leap:|€4.90|€4.90
Travel 90 Return:|€5|€5


*The per day costs are a guide and are for a person using the bus every single working day, but never on a non-working day. Some will use the bus more, some will use it less. Users need to consider if there costs using other ticket types are likely to exceed the per day cost they will achieve with Taxsaver.

**30 Day Rambler reportedly increasing to €4.58 per day. Fill your boots.

ballooba

Riskymove wrote: »

what's so magical about a 50% saving?

sure if its 40% or 30% so what, its still a signicant saving

Because it is advertised as offering up to 52% savings. An early poster paraphrased this marketing spiel. In reality even for very heavy users who earn decent salaries it is difficult to exceed savings of ~40%.

Riskymove

ballooba wrote: »

Because it is advertised as offering up to 52% savings.

52% savings on what?

EDIT
I see that its clearly 52% on the cost of the ticket

How much you would actualkly save versus other tickets is clearly down to individual use

Mrs OBumble

Riskymove wrote: »

52% savings on what?

EDIT
I see that its clearly 52% on the cost of the ticket

How much you would actualkly save versus other tickets is clearly down to individual use

52% of the monthly or annual pass cost as approved by the NTA for the city or service in question.

Devilman40k

ballooba wrote: »

For clarity the following are the current Dublin Bus only ticket costs, hopefully this might be of use to people in deciding whether the ticket is economical for them:
Validity:|Monthly|Annual
"Full Price":|€123|€1,230
20% Marginal Rate Price:|€85|€850
41% Marginal Rate Price:|€59|€590
20% Marginal Rate Price per day*:|€4.43|€3.70
41% Marginal Rate Price per day*:|€3.07|€2.56
Short Return Leap:|€2.80|€2.80
Medium Return Leap:|€3.60|€3.60
30 Day Rambler Price per day**:|€4.16|€4.16
Long Return Leap:|€4.20|€4.20
Extra Long Return Leap:|€4.90|€4.90
Travel 90 Return:|€5|€5


*The per day costs are a guide and are for a person using the bus every single working day, but never on a non-working day. Some will use the bus more, some will use it less. Users need to consider if there costs using other ticket types are likely to exceed the per day cost they will achieve with Taxsaver.

**30 Day Rambler reportedly increasing to €4.58 per day. Fill your boots.

And this table proves that the taxsaver / annual ticket is for heavy users of public transport. Which is it's intent. We know it isn't for everyone, but it is for those who will use it more. the luas is nice and neat as its point to point (as is rail, provincial bus services) DB doesn't work like that as has been said before when they wanted to move to zonal fares they were blocked from doing so

KD345

ballooba wrote: »

The Luas tickets are good value. That's a completely different discussion. I haven't looked at the mixed mode tickets as they are not applicable to me, but I would supsect that Dublin Bus gets more than their fair share of your ticket.

Why do you feel the tax saver ticket for Luas is good value but the Dublin Bus equivalent isn't?

As myself and many others have pointed out, we are all benefiting greatly from the tax saver ticket.

It's simple, if you currently buy a monthly or annual pass you can buy the exact same ticket a lot cheaper through tax saver. If you're an occasional bus user using a Leap card or Rambler ticket, it's worth checking if changing to a tax saver ticket will save you money. There is no marking "fudge" involved, the tax saver advertising is always presented as "save up to xx%"

Comparing an annual or monthly Travelwide ticket to a Rambler is not comparing like with like. They are different products aimed at different types of commuter. I also don't accept your constant references to a "working day". Many people use the bus other than travelling to or from work. When you factor this in, having a ticket which can cost just over €1.60 per day is incredible value.

Your claim that most people are too "lazy" to figure out what ticket is best for them is nonsense. Consumers have never been as sharp to get the best price for services. This is evident in all areas such as phones, energy, waste etc.. Transport is no different. If there's a saving to be made people will figure it out.

ballooba

That depends on your definition of a heavy user of public transport. I would consider a person who uses the bus twice a day every working day a heavy user of public transport. On Luas it would probably be a no brainer for that person to get a taxsaver ticket, but not on Dublin Bus. On Dublin Bus users have to consider how often they use the bus (minimum twice per day every day), how far they have to travel (probably a medium return leap fare per day minimum) and how much they earn (low income workers need to use the bus more).

ballooba

KD345 wrote: »

Why do you feel the tax saver ticket for Luas is good value but the Dublin Bus equivalent isn't?

Because it's much cheaper.

KD345 wrote: »

As myself and many others have pointed out, we are all benefiting greatly from the tax saver ticket.

Most including yourself are using multi-modal tickets.

KD345 wrote: »

It's simple, if you currently buy a monthly or annual pass you can buy the exact same ticket a lot cheaper through tax saver.

Why would you buy an annual or monthly bus ticket? Have you followed any of the thread.

KD345 wrote: »

If you're an occasional bus user using a Leap card or Rambler ticket, it's worth checking if changing to a tax saver ticket will save you money. There is no marking "fudge" involved, the tax saver advertising is always presented as "save up to xx%"

Define occasional? I am very surprised at some people's definition of occasional.

KD345 wrote: »

Comparing an annual or monthly Travelwide ticket to a Rambler is not comparing like with like. They are different products aimed at different types of commuter. I also don't accept your constant references to a "working day". Many people use the bus other than travelling to or from work. When you factor this in, having a ticket which can cost just over €1.60 per day is incredible value.

How many is many? And yet the product is specifically marketed at commuters.

KD345 wrote: »

Your claim that most people are too "lazy" to figure out what ticket is best for them is nonsense. Consumers have never been as sharp to get the best price for services. This is evident in all areas such as phones, energy, waste etc.. Transport is no different. If there's a saving to be made people will figure it out.

And yet Tesco and all the other supermarkets still spend all that money on convincing people to pay more per unit for the same product. I must tell them they are wasting their time seeing as their consumers are so shrewd and analytical.

KD345

ballooba wrote: »

Because it's much cheaper.

How is it much cheaper?

The higher tax band saving on a €910 annual all zone Luas ticket is €473.20

The higher tax band saving on a €1,230 annual travel wide bus ticket is €639.60

They are both calculated using the same method.

ballooba wrote: »

Why would you buy an annual or monthly bus ticket? Have you followed any of the thread.

Because these tickets suit people. In some cases they're the cheapest option for bus travel.

Again, why are you comparing Taxsaver tickets to Rambler. Do you understand they're different tickets?

ballooba wrote: »

Define occasional? I am very surprised at some people's definition of occasional.

How many is many? And yet the product is specifically marketed at commuters.

To answer your question, I would suggest someone who uses the bus a few times per week is an occasional user. Would you agree?

For that person a Leap or Rambler ticket better suits depending on their journey.

The tax saver is aimed at commuters because it availed of through an employer. It's no real surprise this is how it's advertised. However, I believe it's wrong to overlook that these same commuters use public transport other than work. For example, I work with a few other people who use a tax saver annual bus ticket. They all use it at weekends and for other activities outside work.

srsly78

52% is the correct "tax saving", if you are a higher rate taxpayer. This includes 41% marginal rate + prsi + usc.

Why are people using the 41% figure at all?

Devilman40k

ballooba wrote: »

That depends on your definition of a heavy user of public transport. I would consider a person who uses the bus twice a day every working day a heavy user of public transport. On Luas it would probably be a no brainer for that person to get a taxsaver ticket, but not on Dublin Bus. On Dublin Bus users have to consider how often they use the bus (minimum twice per day every day), how far they have to travel (probably a medium return leap fare per day minimum)

There is no Medium leap fare, there are different stage values, if you live that close to home, then use leap. For anyone travelling more than 8 stages the tax saver is ideal, and again anyone using combined trips i.e travelling into city and onward its a godsend! It doesnt take much to realise the point at which it is the most viable option.

For myself and many others it is a no brainer, it is most definitely NOT a silver bullet for everyone, but then again no one claims it is, What it does do is reduce the cost of longer commutes and encourages greater use of public transport on longer journeys

eigrod

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Didn't work like that when I had one. You had to pony up the cash for the remainder of the year if you left.

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing or not, but this from the taxsaver website : http://www.taxsaver.ie/commuters/annual-ticket-conditions/annual-ticket-conditions/

(I note though that it has to be before 8 months, which I hadn't been aware of.

Iarnród Éireann/Dublin Bus
Please note that Annual products are based on a 10 month rate, with two months free and this discount is withdrawn if the ticket is cancelled so the refund/credit is based on the regular monthly rate by the number of months used.
Your Annual ticket/card must be returned to Iarnród Éireann/Dublin Bus from your employer by Registered Post or Courier no later that 5th of the month.

If you cancel your DART/Commuter Rail, Dublin Bus Only, Short Hop Rail & Dublin Bus, Rail & Luas or Dublin Bus & Luas ticket/card before eight months have expired then you may be due a refund on your ticket.

If you cancel your Point-Point Intercity ticket before ten months have expired then you may be due a refund.

Annual Tickets purchased through the taxsaver Commuter Scheme normally have employer conditions that can vary from company to company. It is advisable to seek clarification with your company administrator before seeking a refund.

There is no refund given to Replacement Annual Tickets that were lost, stolen or destroyed during the year.

Refunds on Annual Tickets will be calculated as follows: The cost of the appropriate Monthly Ticket multiplied by the number of months used is deducted from the amount paid for the Annual Ticket. There is no administration fee involved.

srsly78

Well that sounds like a really obvious tax dodge. Get taxsaver annual ticket, cancel ticket, pocket cash.

Where is the catch?

eigrod

srsly78 wrote: »

Well that sounds like a really obvious tax dodge. Get taxsaver annual ticket, cancel ticket, pocket cash.

Where is the catch?

I think it's only where there is an arrangement with the employer. Employer pays Iarnrod Eireann for ticket at start of year. Employee pays back the employer on a monthly basis (out of Gross salary). If employee terminates the ticket, IE refund the employer and the deductions form salary stop. Therefore only tax relief was on the amount paid by the employee.

Any direct arrangement between the travel company and the individual it will, I suppose, be up to the individual to declare it to Revenue. Perhaps the travel company can notify Revenue too that the arrangement has been terminated - I'm not sure.

ballooba

KD345 wrote: »

How is it much cheaper?

The higher tax band saving on a €910 annual all zone Luas ticket is €473.20

Why would any commuter want an all zone Luas ticket? Are they going to travel the length of one line into the city and then cross the city and out to the end of the other line?

KD345 wrote: »

Again, why are you comparing Taxsaver tickets to Rambler. Do you understand they're different tickets?

Because a lot (probably most) people don't use the bus every day. They use it to get to work / study.

KD345 wrote: »

To answer your question, I would suggest someone who uses the bus a few times per week is an occasional user. Would you agree?

No. Not really. An occasional user would use the bus a few times a month in my opinion. Anyone using the bus at least once a working day is a regular user in my opinion.