State Pathologist's Office Critisied from Inside

smeedyova

"Deputy State Pathologist Dr Khalid Jaber has tendered his resignation to the Minister for Justice and Equality," the statement said.
"Dr Jaber's resignation has been accepted with immediate effect and he has been notified accordingly."
The Saudi-born pathologist has been unhappy with the running of the Office of the State Pathologist for some time and in a series of letters criticised Dr Cassidy, suggesting she was not sufficiently qualified to hold the job.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deputy-state-pathologist-resigns-in-wake-of-extraordinary-attack-on-prof-marie-cassidy-29798213.html

The deputy state pathologist has been locked out of his office:

...he had already been locked out of his office and no longer had access to his case files, at least six of which have yet to be fully completed.

Sounds like a whistleblower, no? I'd be very interested to hear what the former deputy state pathologist can tell the public about how the office is run.

Not the first or second time I've heard criticism of the state pathologist's office.

camel jockey

Whistleblower is the last think that comes to mind. Crank more likely.

Gatling

Funny how mortuaries won't take in bodies when he's on duty ,
And the fact he comes from a country where women are pretty much 2nd class citizens might explain some of the issues ,and his boss is a woman

camel jockey

Some background info on Dr Khalid Jaber: http://www.independent.ie/incoming/profile-dr-khalid-jaber-29798111.html

It would be good to know the background to the issues he had with the hospitals. What do you think, OP?

smeedyova

Gatling wrote: »

And the fact he comes from a country where women are pretty much 2nd class citizens might explain some of the issues ,and his boss is a woman

Are you using stereotypes and racism to claim that he is operating on stereotypes and racism?

Just because you judge people on their country of origin you shouldn't project that onto others and imagine that they operate with the same level of ignorance.

deandean

Sounds like he threw his toys out of the pram when no one would listen to his baseless complaints. I'd also wager he had a problem with a woman boss. I do know that Dr Cassidy is highly regarded and respected among her (remaining) peers.
Employer would be fully entitled to lock an employee out of his office if there are relevant concerns, it happened one guy I know and he was put on 'gardening leave' until his notice was worked out and then he got his P45.

Gatling

smeedyova wrote: »

Are you using stereotypes and racism to claim that he is operating on stereotypes and racism?

Just because you judge people on their country of origin you shouldn't project that onto others and imagine that they operate with the same level of ignorance.

What stereotypes exactly are you referring to

Where did you see or conclude racism

Corkbah

might sound obvious …but why has no-one made comment on the qualifications of Dr. Cassidy, Dr Khalid has accused her of not having the required qualifications to hold her position.

If she has the qualifications then his argument is pretty much invalid, if however she doesn't have the qualifications …the court of criminal appeal could get extremely busy !

As regards the locking out of his office - I would say thats fair enough if he tendered his resignation and it was accepted, no-one wants a disgruntled employee around for another few months.

(I'm not saying Dr Khalid is a disgruntled employee)

john.han

deandean wrote: »

Sounds like he threw his toys out of the pram when no one would listen to his baseless complaints. I'd also wager he had a problem with a woman boss. I do know that Dr Cassidy is highly regarded and respected among her (remaining) peers.
Employer would be fully entitled to lock an employee out of his office if there are relevant concerns, it happened one guy I know and he was put on 'gardening leave' until his notice was worked out and then he got his P45.

She should have resigned after the Brian Murphy case, the job of the state pathologist is primarily to determine most likely cause of death in unlawful killings, she failed completely to do this in that case.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cassidy-was-wrong-on-anabel-top-medics-26382705.html

smeedyova

Gatling wrote: »

And the fact he comes from a country where women are pretty much 2nd class citizens might explain some of the issues ,and his boss is a woman

You used his country of origin to make negative claims about him, you claim that he has issues dealing with women because of his country of origin, you claim that he cannot handle having a female boss. You do not know if any of that is true.

Those are all racist remarks based on ignorant stereotyping. You hold it against him that he comes from Saudi Arabia. I find that disgusting and deeply ignorant.

john.han

Gatling wrote: »

What stereotypes exactly are you referring to

Where did you see or conclude racism

? You implied because he's Saudi Arabian that he hates women.

Gatling

smeedyova wrote: »

You used his country of origin to make negative claims about him, you claim that he has issues dealing with women because of his country of origin, you claim that he cannot handle having a female boss. You do not know if any of that is true.

Those are all racist remarks based on ignorant stereotyping. You hold it against him that he comes from Saudi Arabia. I find that disgusting and deeply ignorant.

I made no negative comments about the Dr ,
I made no claims he had issues with women ,

Gatling

john.han wrote: »

? You implied because he's Saudi Arabian that he hates women.

No I certainly did not impy he hates womem

smeedyova

Gatling wrote: »

No I certainly did not impy he hates womem

Lol. You're obviously trolling.

Phoebas

Gatling wrote: »

I made no negative comments about the Dr ,
I made no claims he had issues with women ,

Maybe you could clarify what you were getting at here:

Gatling wrote: »

And the fact he comes from a country where women are pretty much 2nd class citizens might explain some of the issues ,and his boss is a woman

BigCol

He doesn't sound like the easiest guy to get on with. He seems to have annoyed a lot of different people.

AndonHandon

smeedyova wrote: »

Are you using stereotypes and racism to claim that he is operating on stereotypes and racism?

Just because you judge people on their country of origin you shouldn't project that onto others and imagine that they operate with the same level of ignorance.

Whilst not really the issue in this thread, it is a fact that women are second class citizens in Saudi Arabia. Speculating that the doctor didn't respect his female boss, based on that fact, is speculation but certainly not racist.

millie35

The fact that he left Saudi Arabia, might equally imply that he did not agree with the way women were treated there.

Thomas D

There are many more facets to this story that the media can't talk about. This guy pissed of an awful lot of people.Incredible how he was ever hired in the first place.

hullaballoo

Moderator: please keep things on topic. No allegations of trolling or racism. If you have an issue with a post, please report it.

Robbo

Apropos of nothing, there used to be a metal band called The State Pathologist Dr John Harbison. More people need to know that.

camel jockey

Robbo wrote: »

Apropos of nothing, there used to be a metal band called The State Pathologist Dr John Harbison. More people need to know that.

Thank you for bringing this to our collective attention.

martingriff

smeedyova wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/deputy-state-pathologist-resigns-in-wake-of-extraordinary-attack-on-prof-marie-cassidy-29798213.html

The deputy state pathologist has been locked out of his office:



Sounds like a whistleblower, no? I'd be very interested to hear what the former deputy state pathologist can tell the public about how the office is run.

Not the first or second time I've heard criticism of the state pathologist's office.

Just wondering why you thought whistleblower straight away. Sound like a man who was not getting on with his boss. Just wondering when he she does not have the correct qualification what is he refering to. Does the state pathologist to a deputy state pathologist.

Corkbah

martingriff wrote: »

Just wondering why you thought whistleblower straight away. Sound like a man who was not getting on with his boss. Just wondering when he she does not have the correct qualification what is he refering to. Does the state pathologist to a deputy state pathologist.

I would have thought he was whistle blowing on the basis that our most decorated state pathologist may not be fully qualified for her position …. like most people in important jobs in Ireland.

and hundreds of cases could be in jeopardy if he is correct - it is strange though that this claim has not been defunct or disproven.

martingriff

Corkbah wrote: »

I would have thought he was whistle blowing on the basis that our most decorated state pathologist may not be fully qualified for her position …. like most people in important jobs in Ireland.

and hundreds of cases could be in jeopardy if he is correct - it is strange though that this claim has not been defunct or disproven.

I would hope that at the time of her employment they would have checked her degrees and masters ot whatever they needed for someone to go for the job.

kerry4sam

martingriff wrote: »

Just wondering why you thought whistleblower straight away. Sound like a man who was not getting on with his boss. Just wondering when he she does not have the correct qualification what is he refering to. Does the state pathologist to a deputy state pathologist.

martingriff wrote: »

I would hope that at the time of her employment they would have checked her degrees and masters ot whatever they needed for someone to go for the job.

What qualifications are needed to hold the position of State Pathologist?
&
What qualifications does Marie Cassidy currently possess?
& were held by her before taking on the position initially (i.e. not counting courses done after her being elected to the position) ?

Thanks,
kerry4sam

martingriff

kerry4sam wrote: »

What qualifications are needed to hold the position of State Pathologist?
&
What qualifications does Marie Cassidy currently possess?
& were held by her before taking on the position initially (i.e. not counting courses done after her being elected to the position) ?

Thanks,
kerry4sam

That I do not know and did ask in my first post

Corkbah

kerry4sam wrote: »

What qualifications are needed to hold the position of State Pathologist?
&
What qualifications does Marie Cassidy currently possess?
& were held by her before taking on the position initially (i.e. not counting courses done after her being elected to the position) ?

Thanks,
kerry4sam

I believe Dr Khalid's main point is that she (Dr. Cassidy) doesn't have a sub-qualification (she would have the main qualification but the sub-qualification would permit Dr Cassidy to actually determine the cause of death or something like that)

you would think that the civil servants involved in her appointment would have checked and double checked ...then again you would think the civil servants involved in offering a job to Dr Khalid in Texas - knowing that he was not a US resident (a requirement for the job) - would similarly have been more competent.

BanzaiBk

I'd say they were waiting for an excuse. Anyone who has had to deal with this man in a professional capacity knows what I'm talking about - overnight mortuary staff.

Corkbah

BanzaiBk wrote: »

I'd say they were waiting for an excuse. Anyone who has had to deal with this man in a professional capacity knows what I'm talking about - overnight mortuary staff.

be that as it may …. if he is correct in his primary accusation then it means plenty of convicted criminals may be freed.

234

Corkbah wrote: »

be that as it may …. if he is correct in his primary accusation then it means plenty of convicted criminals may be freed.

I very much doubt it.

In many professions the professional qualification is only a starting point. It is the years of experience in the relevant field/industry that makes you an expert.

People can have PhDs at 25 and from there there is usually no higher academic qualification (other than the whole LLD, DLitt, DSc, etc, which usually only apply to academics).

Considering that Prof Cassidy has years and years experience as a pathologist I can't see the issue. If somebody could point to a decision where she was demonstrably incorrect then that would be another matter. But a long track record of correct determinations surely proves that she is qualified.

martingriff

Corkbah wrote: »

be that as it may …. if he is correct in his primary accusation then it means plenty of convicted criminals may be freed.

Do you not think if he was correct and there may be an ounce of truth that all those criminals ( the high profile career criminals) would not have had there lawyers on it by now and clamouring up the courts

Corkbah

234 wrote: »

I very much doubt it.

In many professions the professional qualification is only a starting point. It is the years of experience in the relevant field/industry that makes you an expert.

People can have PhDs at 25 and from there there is usually no higher academic qualification (other than the whole LLD, DLitt, DSc, etc, which usually only apply to academics).

Considering that Prof Cassidy has years and years experience as a pathologist I can't see the issue. If somebody could point to a decision where she was demonstrably incorrect then that would be another matter. But a long track record of correct determinations surely proves that she is qualified.

Ahem …Harbison !!

I'm not saying she isn't qualified - just giving out the claim that Dr Khalid is making - which is not being denied or even asked of the Stat Pathologists Office, if she has this sub-qualification then Dr. Khalid's point is mute and everyone should continue as normal - but if she hasn't and it wouldn't be the first time that there is levels of incompetence in the state body…then its opened up a can of worms.

martingriff wrote: »

Do you not think if he was correct and there may be an ounce of truth that all those criminals ( the high profile career criminals) would not have had there lawyers on it by now and clamouring up the courts

its lateral thinking - the legal professional may not have even thought of attacking the pathologists office - normal procedure is to discredit witnesses, discredit evidence, discredit Gardai and/or procedures - usually if there is still a case the accused either goes to trial/pleads guilty….I'm sure its going to be investigated for future cases….much in the same way it wasn't commonplace to run over to England or USA and declare bankruptcy until it was reported in the media …now anyone who owes anything substantial uses this "loophole" to circumvent irish law.

"loophole" = its perfectly legal but morally wrong in my opinion.

The_Minister

Didn't she say once that she 'learned on the job'?

It's probably a point of public concern if she is operating without all of the professional qualifications, even if she has buckets of experience.

The idea of a qualification is that the experiences of hundreds are distilled down into digestible points - a shortcut to experience. IF (and I emphasise IF) she was missing qualifications, then there might be blank areas in her knowledge, just because she hasn't heard of them.

DoraDelite

I think the question isn't whether or not she has a particular professional certification but if she has all the required qualifications that were stipulated in the job description when she applied for (and got) it.

I have lots of certifications relevant to my field but not all of them were essential criteria when I applied for the job I have now.

martingriff

DoraDelite wrote: »

I think the question isn't whether or not she has a particular professional certification but if she has all the required qualifications that were stipulated in the job description when she applied for (and got) it.

I have lots of certifications relevant to my field but not all of them were essential criteria when I applied for the job I have now.

Would they not be the same thing for the job no

martingriff

The_Minister wrote: »

Didn't she say once that she 'learned on the job'?

It's probably a point of public concern if she is operating without all of the professional qualifications, even if she has buckets of experience.

The idea of a qualification is that the experiences of hundreds are distilled down into digestible points - a shortcut to experience. IF (and I emphasise IF) she was missing qualifications, then there might be blank areas in her knowledge, just because she hasn't heard of them.

Thats a turn of phase as in more experience then just learning on books. My cousin is a nurse and she says she learns on the job not because she does not have the qualification or does not know the stuff but because now she is actually doing the job she is getting experience (better at the job)

DoraDelite

martingriff wrote: »

Would they not be the same thing for the job no

Not necessarily, the certification, while it's relevant to her job may not have been a requirement (or essential criteria) in the job description. If that's the case then she is qualified for the job she applied for at the time provided she has whatever was listed in the job spec as advertised.

A loose example would be a teacher who has a teaching degree, some of them go on to do a masters in education, which while relevant to the job isn't listed as a requirement in the job spec for an advertised teacher.

gctest50

martingriff wrote: »

I would hope that at the time of her employment they would have checked her degrees and masters ot whatever they needed for someone to go for the job.

I suppose he is a bit unhappy, rejects often are ? :

Earlier this year, he was selected from 40 candidates for the $250,000 (€187,000) job of chief medical examiner in El Paso,Texas.


However, the job offer was later withdrawn after a complaint was filed that Dr Jaber was not a US citizen, which was a requirement.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/profile-dr-khalid-jaber-29798111.html

john.han

234 wrote: »

I very much doubt it.

In many professions the professional qualification is only a starting point. It is the years of experience in the relevant field/industry that makes you an expert.

People can have PhDs at 25 and from there there is usually no higher academic qualification (other than the whole LLD, DLitt, DSc, etc, which usually only apply to academics).

Considering that Prof Cassidy has years and years experience as a pathologist I can't see the issue. If somebody could point to a decision where she was demonstrably incorrect then that would be another matter. But a long track record of correct determinations surely proves that she is qualified.

There is one very good example of where she was demonstrably incorrect, I highlighted it already in this thread - the Brian Murphy case where she concluded the cause of death to be alcohol induced apnoea, a finding that was frankly preposterous.

She does not hold a qualification in forensic pathology, the specific branch of pathology concerned with determining cause of death. In my opinion it it perfectly reasonable for concerns to be raised about this but am happy to accept experience may be a valid substitute as qualifications go.

XxMCRxBabyxX

john.han wrote: »

There is one very good example of where she was demonstrably incorrect, I highlighted it already in this thread - the Brian Murphy case where she concluded the cause of death to be alcohol induced apnoea, a finding that was frankly preposterous.

She does not hold a qualification in forensic pathology, the specific branch of pathology concerned with determining cause of death. In my opinion it it perfectly reasonable for concerns to be raised about this but am happy to accept experience may be a valid substitute as qualifications go.

I don't know if that is the case, but if it is it's a bit rich coming from this guy considering that he didn't have a qualification in it either when he started the job:

The 55-year-old was born in Saudi Arabia and has an Irish wife. He did his medical studies in Ireland and his pathology training in the US and Canada.After working in Saudi Arabia and the UK, he came to work as deputy state pathologist in 2009. He took time out to train as a forensic pathologist in Pittsburgh and received his certification in 2010 from the American Board of Pathology.

She is clearly an expert in both forensic medicine and pathology though going by this.

Alan_P

john.han wrote: »

There is one very good example of where she was demonstrably incorrect, I highlighted it already in this thread - the Brian Murphy case where she concluded the cause of death to be alcohol induced apnoea, a finding that was frankly preposterous.

She does not hold a qualification in forensic pathology.

Do you ? If you don't, on what basis do you find her conclusion preposterous ?

john.han

Alan_P wrote: »

Do you ? If you don't, on what basis do you find her conclusion preposterous ?

The levels of alcohol consumed were simply not high enough for alcohol induced apnoea. Brian Murphy's blood alcohol level was 135mg, there haven't been many studies but you'd expect a blood alcohol level of about twice that for such a thing to occur. In addition to this it's still normally in combination with a concussion or blow to the head, so for her to introduce alcohol induced apnoea into a situation where the consumption of alcohol was most likely insignificant was absurb. You wouldn't have found a pathologist anywhere else in the world that would have regarded it as the most likely cause of death because it simply wasn't. It was a fanciful suggestion at best.

234

john.han wrote: »

The levels of alcohol consumed were simply not high enough for alcohol induced apnoea. Brian Murphy's blood alcohol level was 135mg, there haven't been many studies but you'd expect a blood alcohol level of about twice that for such a thing to occur. In addition to this it's still normally in combination with a concussion or blow to the head, so for her to introduce alcohol induced apnoea into a situation where the consumption of alcohol was most likely insignificant was absurb. You wouldn't have found a pathologist anywhere else in the world that would have regarded it as the most likely cause of death because it simply wasn't. It was a fanciful suggestion at best.

Can you link/cite some literature on this?

john.han

234 wrote: »

Can you link/cite some literature on this?

Here's a newspaper report

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/us-medical-journal-lists-five-alcoholinduced-apnoea-deaths-26382847.html

I've read a few medical studies of alcohol's contribution to sleep apnoea but it's very difficult to find any studies where a death has occurred as it's a very rare occurrence and is almost impossible to conclude it as the primary cause of death. As you can see the from the above article even where it has been seen as a contributary factor it is normally in combination with an assault/health problem for a death to occur. From this point of view it's also unusual the DPP just dropped the case as surely the assault was still sufficient to establish causation applying the usual tests (although it's still baffling as to why Cassidy introduced it at all, considering there is no conclusive literature/studies to suggest it would occur at the alcohol level involved).

In fairness I don't wish to dredge up a very upsetting case as you never know who might read these threads, so out of respect for the victim in this case I'm going to leave my contribution at that.

hullaballoo

john.han wrote: »

Here's a newspaper report

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/us-medical-journal-lists-five-alcoholinduced-apnoea-deaths-26382847.html

Ah come on, the Indo?

hullaballoo

john.han wrote: »

Here's a newspaper report

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/us-medical-journal-lists-five-alcoholinduced-apnoea-deaths-26382847.html

Moderator: you have repeatedly been asked to provide a source for what you are stating as being fact. If you cannot provide a credible source for your information, you will no longer be welcome to post in this thread.

john.han

hullaballoo wrote: »

Moderator: you have repeatedly been asked to provide a source for what you are stating as being fact. If you cannot provide a credible source for your information, you will no longer be welcome to post in this thread.

Can I post information from medical journals or are there copyright issues?

hullaballoo

There are copyright issues, yes.

You are still entitled to cite the academic journal and provide an excerpt and a link, if applicable.

234

john.han wrote: »

Here's a newspaper report

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/us-medical-journal-lists-five-alcoholinduced-apnoea-deaths-26382847.html

I've read a few medical studies of alcohol's contribution to sleep apnoea but it's very difficult to find any studies where a death has occurred as it's a very rare occurrence and is almost impossible to conclude it as the primary cause of death. As you can see the from the above article even where it has been seen as a contributary factor it is normally in combination with an assault/health problem for a death to occur. From this point of view it's also unusual the DPP just dropped the case as surely the assault was still sufficient to establish causation applying the usual tests (although it's still baffling as to why Cassidy introduced it at all, considering there is no conclusive literature/studies to suggest it would occur at the alcohol level involved).

In fairness I don't wish to dredge up a very upsetting case as you never know who might read these threads, so out of respect for the victim in this case I'm going to leave my contribution at that.

TBH the article is wisely non-committal. There is a lot of inference but nothing concrete. If you could cite some literature within the bounds of what the mod has set out above that would be great.

john.han

234 wrote: »

TBH the article is wisely non-committal. There is a lot of inference but nothing concrete. If you could cite some literature within the bounds of what the mod has set out above that would be great.

I'm under a warning so am careful about what I can post. The article in question is "Death Due to Concussion and Alcohol"
Aleksandar V. Milovanovic, The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology March 1999 | Volume 20 | Issue 1 | pp: 6-9, the overall conclusion is that in five deaths, in situations where the deceased persons had high alcohol levels and soft tissue injuries the cause of death was found to be ethanol augmentation of concussive brain injury, in other words the alcohol consumed contributed to the resultant apnoea of the concussion sustained and was the mechanism of death. Simply put they died due to oxygen deprivation as a result of a concussion which was made worse by alcohol. In all cases the blood alcohol level was much higher than Brian Murphy's and the paper suggests high alcohol consumption would be necessary for the mechanism of death in question as the depressant effect would need to be extreme to sufficiently prolong the time during which the brain would be starved of oxygen. In none of the cases was it concluded that the cause of death was simply alcohol induced apnoea.

Conversely, could you please cite any literature/studies that would back up Doctor Cassidy's assertion that the cause of death in the case of Brian Murphy was alcohol induced apnoea?