What so English school books say about Ireland?

tac foley

I'd have to say that it might have something to do with the twenty-seven years of roadside and town bombs that took some of the shine out of a vacation in the North of the country, added to which the sight of soldiers and armed police on the streets of most towns, the road-blocks and traffic stops along rural roads run by the BA and 'others' and the intimidatory language used by the population of all pursuasions.

Who in their right mind would take a British mainland-registered car over to Northern Ireland instead of hiring one there?

Or unknowingly walk into the 'wrong' pub and speak with an obvious English accent?

You really can't blame people, given those circumstances, now, for the most part, behind us.

tac

Castlebar12

tac foley wrote: »

I'd have to say that it might have something to do with the twenty-seven years of roadside and town bombs that took some of the shine out of a vacation in the North of the country, added to which the sight of soldiers and armed police on the streets of most towns, the road-blocks and traffic stops along rural roads run by the BA and 'others' and the intimidatory language used by the population of all pursuasions.

Who in their right mind would take a British mainland-registered car over to Northern Ireland instead of hiring one there?

Or unknowingly walk into the 'wrong' pub and speak with an obvious English accent?

You really can't blame people, given those circumstances, now, for the most part, behind us.

tac

Yes and that happened in their country not ours. No excuse to avoid the south.

SpaceTime

Grandeeod wrote: »

I firmly believe that had Irish history been taught in English schools, it would have helped both nations to develop healthier relations. I am gobsmacked when an English person displays a complete lack of knowledge towards Irish History. I think a lot of bigotry and ignorance could be dispelled if it was included to some degree.

I recently met an English woman who's husband refuses to visit any part Ireland based on the threat of terrorism! This kind of baloney still exists and its probably down to generations and generations of not being educated about Ireland.

A Cork woman I know won't visit England for similar reasons. People get funny ideas about how dangerous places are.

TheHighest92

it's worth noting that they didn't lose Ireland, some would argue that they were victorious in the war in the 1910-1920's due to them still keeping hold of a large portion of the north, it could have been worse for them.

they probably were taught more about ireland in primary school than us northern ireland people were, i didn't learn anything about irish history until 1st year of secondary school

markesmith

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's nothing to do with history classes, that's just general ignorance.

Listen to the shinners and they'll have you believe there's a "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish" sign outside every hotel in England.

That's nothing to do with Sinn Fein, that's just general ignorance.

Judgement Day

Many English people don't even know their own history let alone Ireland's, and when it comes to being parochial they are in a league of their own. That said, the same is true of many Irish people.

Ozymandiaz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's nothing to do with history classes, that's just general ignorance.

I think you are quite wrong there. Ignorance is lack of education and William Hazlitt famously said that 'prejudice is the child of ignorance'!:)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Listen to the shinners and they'll have you believe there's a "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish" sign outside every hotel in England.

Shinners?! 'No dogs, blacks or Irish'?! What circles do you move in? Or are you just showing a certain degree of ignorance again?:)

For what it's worth, I don't think Ireland gets much, if any, mention in English schoolbooks. Why should it? I doubt they would be too eager to teach their rising generations about our mutual history, especially as there is a lot to cram into the curriculum. Better to concentrate on Germany, etc..

Grandeeod

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

I think you are quite wrong there. Ignorance is lack of education and William Hazlitt famously said that 'prejudice is the child of ignorance'!:)

Shinners?! 'No dogs, blacks or Irish'?! What circles do you move in? Or are you just showing a certain degree of ignorance again?:)

For what it's worth, I don't think Ireland gets much, if any, mention in English schoolbooks. Why should it? I doubt they would be too eager to teach their rising generations about our mutual history, especially as there is a lot to cram into the curriculum. Better to concentrate on Germany, etc..

Came back on to reply, but I think you have summed up my response. I don't want to get political about this issue, although it's hard not to, but I base my opinion on the English people I meet on a daily basis. While English people living and working in Ireland may find my opinion a bit strange, there is still a very ignorant English population that have some very warped views of Ireland and through conversation I have concluded that it's down to a poor education. Perhaps the powers that be, should actually establish a proper History curriculum in schools so this ignorance has some chance of being dispelled. It's a sad day when I can correct an English person on an aspect of their History, but they haven't a clue about the History of my country beyond what the media fed them about the IRA and Northern Ireland.

tac foley

As far as I know, Ireland [Republic of] is not a subject matter in ANY part of the mainland history curriculum, nor has it ever been.

History as a school subject here on the mainland is not taught in date order from the coming of the Romans - this woeful state of affairs has come about by the very title of history being segued into 'social studies' or some such ballyhoo. As you may have seen in the news - or not - in general, UK schoolkids are as thick as pigsh*te.

Watching any of the game shows where general knowledge is tested is truly painful. They know the fifteen different hairgels used by the rapper Snot O'Goblin, but think that Maui is an island in the Orkneys.......

tac

HansHolzel

tac foley wrote: »

As far as I know, Ireland [Republic of] is not a subject matter in ANY part of the mainland history curriculum, nor has it ever been.

History as a school subject here on the mainland is not taught in date order from the coming of the Romans - this woeful state of affairs has come about by the very title of history being segued into 'social studies' or some such ballyhoo. As you may have seen in the news - or not - in general, UK schoolkids are as thick as pigsh*te.

Watching any of the game shows where general knowledge is tested is truly painful. They know the fifteen different hairgels used by the rapper Snot O'Goblin, but think that Maui is an island in the Orkneys.......

tac

France is the nearest fu*king mainland.

Judgement Day

HansHolzel wrote: »

France is the nearest fu*king mainland.

Surely it's past your bedtime?

HansHolzel

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Have you ever, in all your time on boards,.engaged.in a thread without turning it in to a boo hoo feel sorry for the Irish thread?

General: Thought I was going for a minute. But no man's put me down yet. Have you had any training in the martial arts?

Withnail: Yes, as a matter of fact I have. Before I became a journalist I was in the Territorials.

General: Do you know, when you first came in here I knew you were a services man. You can never, never disguise it.

Withnail: What were you in?

General: Tanks. Afrika Korps. A little before your time. Don't suppose you've engaged, have you?

Withnail: Ireland.

General: Oh, a crack at the Mick.

Withnail: We'll have another pair of large scotches.

General: These shall be my pleasure.

RahenyD5

The Brits are not always aware of their history, some of it is quietly brushed under the carpet like when it comes to Ireland. Take the Falklands for example, most Argentines were taught everything about the islands at school age so they would know more about them but not many British schoolkids know the islands do exist. This could explain why most Argentines are passionate about the Falklands which some Brits are indifferent about, if they did not know about them, if their relatives did not fight in the war also the long distance between the islands & UK.

This ignorance about the islands, being British territory, that the foreign Argentines seem to know so much about them can be embarrassing for Westminster.

My grandfather once told me when the war broke out that the Argentines were going to invade, this caused some panic over in Scotland that people thought the Falklands were located off Scotland near the Faroes! Some people had no idea that the islands were actually in the South Atlantic.

Fratton Fred

Grandeeod wrote: »

Came back on to reply, but I think you have summed up my response. I don't want to get political about this issue, although it's hard not to, but I base my opinion on the English people I meet on a daily basis. While English people living and working in Ireland may find my opinion a bit strange, there is still a very ignorant English population that have some very warped views of Ireland and through conversation I have concluded that it's down to a poor education. Perhaps the powers that be, should actually establish a proper History curriculum in schools so this ignorance has some chance of being dispelled. It's a sad day when I can correct an English person on an aspect of their History, but they haven't a clue about the History of my country beyond what the media fed them about the IRA and Northern Ireland.

These English people of which you speak, they were actually English weren't they?

It's just half of this country seems to think you catch the ferry to England, Scotland is part of England and Britain is somewhere inside the M25.

Maybe that's just ignorance.

Fratton Fred

RahenyD5 wrote: »

My grandfather once told me when the war broke out that the Argentines were going to invade, this caused some panic over in Scotland that people thought the Falklands were located off Scotland near the Faroes! Some people had no idea that the islands were actually in the South Atlantic.

This post about the Brits, on a thread about English schools demonstrates my previous point perfectly.

By the way, your grandfather was mistaken. That never happened.

Judgement Day

RahenyD5 wrote: »

The Brits are not always aware of their history, some of it is quietly brushed under the carpet like when it comes to Ireland. Take the Falklands for example, most Argentines were taught everything about the islands at school age so they would know more about them but not many British schoolkids know the islands do exist. This could explain why most Argentines are passionate about the Falklands which some Brits are indifferent about, if they did not know about them, if their relatives did not fight in the war also the long distance between the islands & UK.

This ignorance about the islands, being British territory, that the foreign Argentines seem to know so much about them can be embarrassing for Westminster.

My grandfather once told me when the war broke out that the Argentines were going to invade, this caused some panic over in Scotland that people thought the Falklands were located off Scotland near the Faroes! Some people had no idea that the islands were actually in the South Atlantic.

Sure, sure...when the islands were invaded it was without warning and nobody had time to panic - except perhaps your grandfather. :rolleyes:

SpaceTime

I don't know if it's changed at this stage but a huge percentage of the primary history course we did was about mythology!

I thought that equipping kids with primary research skills would be the most obvious way of starting history off.

Maybe start with local history and move on from there. Get them out exploring.

I just remember being taught about Cu Cullen and all this stuff!

I do think though there's a general ignorance about lots of major issues in all countries. I've yet to come across one where your average unintellectual type knows all that much. The BBC and discovery channel etc probably do more to give many people access to broad education then the schools do in a lot of cases.

Also because of the structure of the modern A-Level system (not used Scotland) many UK kids are actually getting very very narrow educations because they study a very small number of subjects in depth rather than what we do with the LC or the Scottish Highers or French Bac'

People with a history A Level would probably know a lot more than a LC history student though as it's such a huge % of their school work.

The bigger problem with the A Level approach is that very key skills like maths and English can be neglected with certain subject choices.

tac foley

How many of YOU know that Sweden once included Norway AND Denmark AND Poland?

How many of you know about the Thirty-year War?

Or anything about the history of the Baltic States between 1000 and 1700AD?

I know very little, I must admit, and yet they were, in their time, epoch-changing events for those regions that have echoes down to our own time.

tac

johnny_doyle

I do seem to remember something in school re the Hanseatic League/Baltic trading but not what topic it was part of.

Didn't do much about Canada and the relationship to Newfoundland, WW1 internment in Canada, Fenian Raid etc Ditto didn't do anything re Australia/South Africa and their development, apartheid, status etc. Falkland Islands were touched upon as part of the Industrial Revolution - a topic on the development, operation, demise and restoration of the SS Great Britain.

Grandeeod

Fratton Fred wrote: »

These English people of which you speak, they were actually English weren't they?

It's just half of this country seems to think you catch the ferry to England, Scotland is part of England and Britain is somewhere inside the M25.

Maybe that's just ignorance.

Yes they were English.

I lived in England for years and now live in a different part of Europe among a large English community. I'm talking about English people. When the thread refers to Scots and Welsh, I'll talk about them to.

Fratton Fred

tac foley wrote: »

How many of YOU know that Sweden once included Norway AND Denmark AND Poland?

How many of you know about the Thirty-year War?

Or anything about the history of the Baltic States between 1000 and 1700AD?

I know very little, I must admit, and yet they were, in their time, epoch-changing events for those regions that have echoes down to our own time.

tac

Some of us weren't born then Tac!

markesmith

tac foley wrote: »

How many of YOU know that Sweden once included Norway AND Denmark AND Poland?

How many of you know about the Thirty-year War?

Or anything about the history of the Baltic States between 1000 and 1700AD?

I know very little, I must admit, and yet they were, in their time, epoch-changing events for those regions that have echoes down to our own time.

tac

Those are all key events in European history, but Ireland's interactions with, and subjugation by, Britain over the years would put it's history above those events.

Nobody's denying the impact of the Thirty Years War on Europe, but Ireland and Britain are neighbours, Britain owned Ireland, and Britain has so many people claiming Irish descent, that you'd think British textbooks would cover a little bit more on our country.

Not mad, or jealous, or feeling unloved or anything :pac:

Fratton Fred

markesmith wrote: »

Those are all key events in European history, but Ireland's interactions with, and subjugation by, Britain over the years would put it's history above those events.

Nobody's denying the impact of the Thirty Years War on Europe, but Ireland and Britain are neighbours, Britain owned Ireland, and Britain has so many people claiming Irish descent, that you'd think British textbooks would cover a little bit more on our country.

Not mad, or jealous, or feeling unloved or anything :pac:

Out of curiosity, how much English history is covered in Irish schools? Civil war,Norman invasion, the reformation?

gobnaitolunacy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how much English history is covered in Irish schools? Civil war,Norman invasion, the reformation?

Nothing at all in primary school, only the bits that directly affected us. i.e. the naughty old Brits up to their old tricks again.

Secondary school we did do the Reformation, Martin Luther and all that. Civil War was done as well. Everything was Euro-centric. Asia/the Americas didn't get a look in, save US entry into WW1. Africa briefly referred to in the 19th cent scramble and that was it.

who the fug

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Nothing at all in primary school, only the bits that directly affected us. i.e. the naughty old Brits up to their old tricks again.

Secondary school we did do the Reformation, Martin Luther and all that. Civil War was done as well. Everything was Euro-centric. Asia/the Americas didn't get a look in, save US entry into WW1. Africa briefly referred to in the 19th cent scramble and that was it.

Did we , all I remember was Ireland 1850 to 1923 and Europe 1860 to 1939, that was the eighties

Grandeeod

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how much English history is covered in Irish schools? Civil war,Norman invasion, the reformation?

I studied history throughout my 5 years of secondary school. (1984- 1989) From memory. Norman invasion. War of the Roses.Henry the 7th/ Henry the 8th/Tudor period. Civil War/Cromwell. Industrial revolution. Then it morphed into the relationship with Ireland. Both World Wars were covered from a British perspective.

The syllabus has changed over the years so I don't know how much of this has been removed and replaced with a more contemporary history.

Grandeeod

who the fug wrote: »

Did we , all I remember was Ireland 1850 to 1923 and Europe 1860 to 1939, that was the eighties

That sounds like the old leaving cert course. The old inter cert course was from 1066 to the mid 19th century.

who the fug

Grandeeod wrote: »

That sounds like the old leaving cert course. The old inter cert course was from 1066 to the mid 19th century.

I have no recollection of answer any questions , pre 1800 in the inter and that was 83

Grandeeod

who the fug wrote: »

I have no recollection of answer any questions , pre 1800 in the inter and that was 83

I did it in 87 and honestly, what I quoted was on the course.

TheHighest92

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't know if it's changed at this stage but a huge percentage of the primary history course we did was about mythology!

I thought that equipping kids with primary research skills would be the most obvious way of starting history off.

Maybe start with local history and move on from there. Get them out exploring.

I just remember being taught about Cu Cullen and all this stuff!

I do think though there's a general ignorance about lots of major issues in all countries. I've yet to come across one where your average unintellectual type knows all that much. The BBC and discovery channel etc probably do more to give many people access to broad education then the schools do in a lot of cases.

Also because of the structure of the modern A-Level system (not used Scotland) many UK kids are actually getting very very narrow educations because they study a very small number of subjects in depth rather than what we do with the LC or the Scottish Highers or French Bac'

People with a history A Level would probably know a lot more than a LC history student though as it's such a huge % of their school work.

The bigger problem with the A Level approach is that very key skills like maths and English can be neglected with certain subject choices.

I first heard of Cu Chulainn when I was 19 when I did my own research, it's a shame given the fact that he was an ulster myth and we weren't even taught about him