Stopped by Gards..... Quick question.

Banjo String

Ok, so you've probably heard this before, anyway this is truth.

I was stopped this morning by the Gards for allegedly using my phone. Seriously, I have a top of the range bluetooth device, integrated into the car which the phone is always connected to. Always.

I was clueless as to what the blue flashing lights behind me were for, and when I pulled in the gard said he witnessed me using a phone. I pointed out my hands free system to him, and told him that he 100% didn't see me using a phone, and I could show him my phone records to satisfy this.

He took my license away, came back and just basically told me to go to court of wanted to dispute it. :mad:

Now, in saying that he didn't give me any paperwork, but what spooked me slightly was, my license is a northern one. Yet he was able to tell me he'd be sending the fine to my address in the south. How? As I didn't give him that address.

My job has me in both jurisdictions week in, week out so no point changing to a southern license (imo) but how could be get my address here from a northern license?

I'll pay the fine as there's Prob not much point fighting it in court, but the Garda have really gone to town issuing fines. €80s aren't easily come by these days :mad:

mitosis

It's enough if he saw it in your hand. I have a bluetooth and it doesn't do texts or call a contact without the phone being handled.

I imagine the licence would be linked to your insurance details?

Supergurrier

His word against yours unfortunately.

Seems you just met a thick hard a on a bad day.

ardinn

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court. I wouldnt give them the satisfaction, but if he didnt give you any paperwork then I dont know if he even proceeded with the fine, But I may be wrong.

Anyway - maybe give the station a ring and speak with the sergeant on duty and see what he says!

NotInventedHere

Banjo String wrote: »

Ok, so you've probably heard this before, anyway this is truth.

I was stopped this morning by the Gards for allegedly using my phone. Seriously, I have a top of the range bluetooth device, integrated into the car which the phone is always connected to. Always.

I was clueless as to what the blue flashing lights behind me were for, and when I pulled in the gard said he witnessed me using a phone. I pointed out my hands free system to him, and told him that he 100% didn't see me using a phone, and I could show him my phone records to satisfy this.

He took my license away, came back and just basically told me to go to court of wanted to dispute it. :mad:

Now, in saying that he didn't give me any paperwork, but what spooked me slightly was, my license is a northern one. Yet he was able to tell me he'd be sending the fine to my address in the south.

My job has me in both jurisdictions week in, week out so no point changing to a southern license (imo) but how could be get my address here from a northern license?

I'll pay the fine as there's Prob not much point fighting it in court, but the Garda have really gone to town issuing fines. €80s aren't easily come by these days :mad:

Happened me the other day. I am considering going to court as I wasn't in posession of a mobile device and the time on the fixed penalty notice does not match phone usage on my bill. I have zero points at the moment and I would like to keep it that way.

Banjo String

OSI wrote: »

I assume he got your address from your number plate?

I'm in a leased vehicle. Prob contacted them from the number plate (they're in Dublin)

Edit, for clarity I should add that I'm from the north, the company I work for are also in the north.

Banjo String

mitosis wrote: »

It's enough if he saw it in your hand. I have a bluetooth and it doesn't do texts or call a contact without the phone being handled.

I imagine the licence would be linked to your insurance details?

He didn't see it in my hand, seriously, the phone was on my dash board tray since leaving a customers premises a half hour beforehand.

Supergurrier

Thing with modern phones is you don't need to be making a call to be handling it.

Changing song/text/tweet/fb/etc

Banjo String

ardinn wrote: »

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court. I wouldnt give them the satisfaction, but if he didnt give you any paperwork then I dont know if he even proceeded with the fine, But I may be wrong.

Anyway - maybe give the station a ring and speak with the sergeant on duty and see what he says!

I didn't get what the Gardas name was, what station he was attached to etc. These were traffic corp lads. 2 of them.

They got pretty irritated when I asked them if they were prepared to perjur themselves in court though.

Extremely annoyed at this now.

Keith186

Go to court tell them he's a liar. Not much else you can do. If Garda is doing this regularly to get numbers up it's a disgrace as there's any amount actually on the phone which they could catch red handed if they wanted.

Edit: just seen there's two of them so they'll never believe you in court!

Tabnabs

They don't accept the "here are my phone records" as many people have two phones (personal and business) and who's to say you weren't using a second phone?

(I understand your side of it, but that would be the standard rebuttal to the "here, check my phone to prove it wasn't in use" argument)

djimi

Its an utterly ridiculous law that a Garda can prosecute on the basis of no more evidence than what they thought they saw through the window of a moving car, but unless you have something rock solid to prove them wrong then it probably wont do any good to contest it.

Giving him lip probably didnt help either in fairness...

Anan1

Banjo String wrote: »

They got pretty irritated when I asked them if they were prepared to perjur themselves in court though.

Extremely annoyed at this now.

I can understand your annoyance, but that was the wrong thing to say. The Gardaí genuinely believe that they saw you on the phone; your only hope was/is to persuade them that they were mistaken. You never know, you might have already succeeded in that.

Keith186 wrote: »

Go to court tell them he's a liar. Not much else you can do. If Garda is doing this regularly to get numbers up it's a disgrace as there's any amount actually on the phone which they could catch red handed if they wanted.

Edit: just seen there's two of them so they'll never believe you in court!

Yeah, do this if you have lots of spare time and like fines.

Del2005

ardinn wrote: »

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court. I wouldnt give them the satisfaction, but if he didnt give you any paperwork then I dont know if he even proceeded with the fine, But I may be wrong.

Anyway - maybe give the station a ring and speak with the sergeant on duty and see what he says!

The offence is holding the device so no point in showing records as they only prove you weren't sending anything, nothing to do with the alleged offence.

brokenarms

At least the Garda are doing something about phones. Although in this case I think you may be in the right.

zenno

It seems that the garda in question is suffering from visual hallucinations and therefore should be sent for psychiatric evaluation.

Mycroft H

The offence in Ireland is actually holding a mobile phone, never mind using it. Doesn't matter if you were making a call at the time, you just have to have it in your hand to break the law.

So it's now your word vs his.

Banjo String

djimi wrote: »

Its an utterly ridiculous law that a Garda can prosecute on the basis of no more evidence than what they thought they saw through the window of a moving car, but unless you have something rock solid to prove them wrong then it probably wont do any good to contest it.

Giving him lip probably didnt help either in fairness...

Ah in fairness I only changed to vinegar from sugar when he came back from his car and was adamant I was being fined. :mad:

I'll pay the bloody fine if it arrives. Reflects badly on the Gardai though. This lad lied through his teeth, or possibly genuinely believed he saw something he didn't .

Sucks to be Joe public at times. :mad:

R0C

I was a passenger in a van when my co-worker went through an identical scenario recently. We got a siren and flashing lights from a traffic corps car and had no idea why. There was absolutely no talking to him, he was pig ignorant and disinterested in listening. Co-worker tried to show him he had no calls made, etc but he completely ignored him.

The day in question was some of the most horrendous weather we've had in months, it was dusk and the side window of the van was completely covered in water (rain) so he'd have needed x-ray vision from where he was parked to spot something as small as a phone.

Myself and the other passenger tried to tell him that the driver genuinely did not have a phone in his hand, it was clearly mounted on the dash of the van. I don't know what he thought he saw but he didn't bother to clarify.

He didn't acknowledge anything we had to say, simply asked for the licence and said to take it to court if the driver had a problem. He walked off as soon as he was done to the point we sat there until he pulled off thinking, 'surely he's not done, surely he will come back and explain what just happened.'

The fine came out a few days later and had the wrong address for where the 'offense' was committed. A different street was listed on the other side of the town.

Had it been me, I'd have queried it further based on the incorrect address and incorrect assumption that the driver was on a phone.

But my co-worker couldn't be bothered challenging it and going to court so he just paid the fine. I think that's what most people are doing, as if you go to court, it's your word against the Garda, and I'd imagine you stand little chance.

pippip

Banjo String wrote: »

Ah in fairness I only changed to vinegar from sugar when he came back from his car and was adamant I was being fined. :mad:

I'll pay the bloody fine if it arrives. Reflects badly on the Gardai though. This lad lied through his teeth, or possibly genuinely believed he saw something he didn't .

Sucks to be Joe public at times. :mad:

Why would you pay it if you didn't do it. Don't you get points to?

After putting up a fight chances are the guard realised they are wrong and won't turn up to court.

Keith186

Anan1 wrote: »

Yeah, do this if you have lots of spare time and like fines.

Garda might feel guilty and not turn up. Only possible win in what is pretty much a lose lose situation.

Cabaal

ardinn wrote: »

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court. I wouldnt give them the satisfaction, but if he didnt give you any paperwork then I dont know if he even proceeded with the fine, But I may be wrong.

Anyway - maybe give the station a ring and speak with the sergeant on duty and see what he says!

phone bill records will show if you sent any texts or made any calls,

However the phone bill records won't show inbound stuff, this will only be on the phone and can easily be modified (deleted) so not sure how accepting a court may be of it.

Anan1

Keith186 wrote: »

Garda might feel guilty and not turn up. Only possible win in what is pretty much a lose lose situation.

Seriously, think about what you're saying. The Garda won't feel guilty because they believe they saw the offence, and they won't not turn up because they'll have more than one case in that sitting.

There is one other chance for the OP now, which is to have a polite word with the Garda before the case.

Banjo String

pippip wrote: »

Why would you pay it if you didn't do it. Don't you get points to?

After putting up a fight chances are the guard realised they are wrong and won't turn up to court.

I can't get points on my northern license as I understand it.

Don't want the hassle of a day in court, paying a lawyer, etc etc. Let's hope they see sense and disregard the paperwork when they get back to the station.

Still miffed as to how they made the southern address to the Northern license though. I got a speeding fine once from a Garda, and gave my southern address at the roadside. Do they store license details (driver number etc) against addresses, or would they have checked with the leasing company against the Reg of the car I'm driving?

I always assumed I had a bit of anonymity with my northern license. May have assumed wrongly it seems. :mad:

zenno

Banjo String wrote: »

I can't get points on my northern license as I understand it.

Don't want the hassle of a day in court, paying a lawyer, etc etc. Let's hope they see sense and disregard the paperwork when they get back to the station.

Still miffed as to how they made the southern address to the Northern license though. I got a speeding fine once from a Garda, and gave my southern address at the roadside. Do they store license details (driver number etc) against addresses, or would they have checked with the leasing company against the Reg of the car I'm driving?

I always assumed I had a bit of anonymity with my northern license. May have assumed wrongly it seems. :mad:

Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) devices have been fitted in 70 squad cars and 30 more will be on the roads in all Garda divisions, and this was in 2008. They can easily see all information about you now.

mikom

Soon time for a dash cam facing the driver as well as the road if this money racket keeps up.

00833827

mikom wrote: »

Soon time for a dash cam facing the driver as well as the road if this money racket keeps up.

not a bad idea - you would enjoy your day in court then - "Your honour, can i enter into evidence...."

Chris_Heilong

mikom wrote: »

Soon time for a dash cam facing the driver as well as the road if this money racket keeps up.

I was thinking the same.

Seweryn

ardinn wrote: »

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court.

It doesn't matter if a phone call was made or not. Using or just holding a phone is an offence.

Yes, you can hold a cup of hot coffee while driving, but if you do that with your phone, you can be fined.

zenno

I wonder does the road traffic Garda vehicles have on-board cameras ? you could request the footage from that vehicle I'm sure. That would be a birdseye view that the Garda had.

BMJD

I can't understand how they are making mistakes like this, I see dozens of people driving whilst using a phone every day yet they somehow make a balls of catching the wrong guys.

Also, don't call a Garda a liar. Ever.

listermint

Typical,

its a case of one law for some

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/speeding-summons-for-gordon-darcy-struck-out-29789565.html

The player was meant to appear before the court last week to answer the summons, but was busy training for Ireland’s match against the All-Blacks and unable to appear in person.

Judge Denis McLoughlin ruled he wouldn’t deal with the case in the Ireland centre’s absence.

My cousin had a similar issue a few weeks back. Genuinely didnt get any notification so went to court took a day off work for it. And got points and an additional fine.

Nothing new in this country.

OP if you were 'somebody' this wouldnt have happened there would have been no phone seen even if there was.

blackwhite

I had similar happen to me last year.

When I retrieved my phone from my golf bag in the boot they were happy enough to admit I probably wasn't on the phone and let me do. Before I oened the boot they insisting they'd seen me holding "a phone" and I should stop "lying through my teeth."

pcardin

Tabnabs wrote: »

They don't accept the "here are my phone records" as many people have two phones (personal and business) and who's to say you weren't using a second phone?

(I understand your side of it, but that would be the standard rebuttal to the "here, check my phone to prove it wasn't in use" argument)

in other words any crab in uniform can fine for anything they want and there's nothing anyone can do about. sad. very sad.

listermint

blackwhite wrote: »

I had similar happen to me last year.

When I retrieved my phone from my golf bag in the boot they were happy enough to admit I probably wasn't on the phone and let me do. Before I oened the boot they insisting they'd seen me holding "a phone" and I should stop "lying through my teeth."

Its guards like that who give the decent ones a horrible name. As with all walks of life there is some complete and utter scrotes in certain professions and that was clearly one.

djimi

mikom wrote: »

Soon time for a dash cam facing the driver as well as the road if this money racket keeps up.

I think Id sooner pay the €80 fine rather than sit in a court of people who are watching a video of me singing along to the Vengaboys or whatever before I got pulled over...

zenno

I just checked there, and the camera systems show 'full view' inside the car in front, and back, from the garda road traffic vehicles. So you could contact this garda and ask them to view the footage with you to see.

mikom

djimi wrote: »

I think Id sooner pay the €80 fine rather than sit in a court of people who are watching a video of me singing along to the Vengaboys or whatever before I got pulled over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68thXNJJlYg

SeaFields

Just wondering as I'm not to versed in all things legal. If the OP went to court and was categorically able to prove they didn't have a phone in their hand and had the case struck out, could he apply for costs (solicitor, day off work, etc.)?

listermint

SeaFields wrote: »

Just wondering as I'm not to versed in all things legal. If the OP went to court and was categorically able to prove they didn't have a phone in their hand and had the case struck out, could he apply for costs (solicitor, day off work, etc.)?

No idea actually. Interesting though.

Would put alot more emphasis on proof of an incident occuring

Banjo String

SeaFields wrote: »

Just wondering as I'm not to versed in all things legal. If the OP went to court and was categorically able to prove they didn't have a phone in their hand and had the case struck out, could he apply for costs (solicitor, day off work, etc.)?

I doubt it would go anywhere tbh. The initial gard got a bit flustered when my phone rang (through the Car stereo bluetooth) when he returned from his car.

That's when his mate backed him up, said he too seen me holding my phone to my ear. That's when I responded ref the perjury question. They responded by asking if I'd like to be arrested for dangerous driving. (as holding a phone could be classed as dangerous driving apparently)

Eighty euro. That's more or less a days basic wage for me. 4 day week this week so. :mad:

listermint

If it were me, id feel too strongly about it and head to court if im totally honest. Id never let something like this go unchallenged.

stoneill

I'd go to court too.

BraveDonut

Can you go to court and just argue for yourself or are you obliged to retain a solicitor?

power pants

you probably got it as you were driving a NI reg car and they wanted to be smart

grainnewhale

Go to court, why would you accept a fine and points for something you didn't do.

hi5

grainnewhale wrote: »

Go to court, why would you accept a fine and points for something you didn't do.

An easy life.... and sadly the guards know this too.
If enough people stand up to them, they might think twice.

It's like something you'd expect from KGB of Stalin's Russia:eek:.

Banjo String

power pants wrote: »

you probably got it as you were driving a NI reg car and they wanted to be smart

No. D Reg vehicle, leased from a Dublin based company.

ardle1

ardinn wrote: »

If your phone records can prove at the time of the incident you were not using your phone then go to court. I wouldnt give them the satisfaction, but if he didnt give you any paperwork then I dont know if he even proceeded with the fine, But I may be wrong.

Anyway - maybe give the station a ring and speak with the sergeant on duty and see what he says!

Nah no paper work necessary, caught on mobile and jumped Amber red light, few words in the window, took details from me........ Forward week or so later, and in both cases fine in the post.....

djimi

listermint wrote: »

If it were me, id feel too strongly about it and head to court if im totally honest. Id never let something like this go unchallenged.

While I agree with you in principle, the problem is that in court it will be the word of two Gardai against the word of the accused, and quite frankly you aint winning that one.

Its why I firmly believe that this is a law that needs changing. There is no way that the Gardai should be able to convict on the word of what they thought they saw, not without some sort of physical evidence. With the way the law is currently, its a risk to scratch your ear while driving in case the wrong person sees you...

challengemaster

Banjo String wrote: »

I doubt it would go anywhere tbh. The initial gard got a bit flustered when my phone rang (through the Car stereo bluetooth) when he returned from his car.

That's when his mate backed him up, said he too seen me holding my phone to my ear. That's when I responded ref the perjury question. They responded by asking if I'd like to be arrested for dangerous driving. (as holding a phone could be classed as dangerous driving apparently)

Good to see what they're being taught in templemore anyway :rolleyes:. When it seems the gardaí can't get any more useless, they somehow surprise you. Holding the word of a a law enforcement officer above average joe makes sense, until you stop assuming the gardaí aren't lying or corrupt.

I wonder what would happen if enough people got vocal about it? Widespread complaints to the ombudsman and go to a few papers.