Proposal for Part-worn tyres to be banned, tyre outlets to be 'licensed'

deandean

Interesting article in the Indo today:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/8000-cars-with-backtofront-tyres-fail-nct-29781469.html

Some extracts:

• Tyres are the second most common reason for failing the NCT, after problems with front suspension.
  
• Now, for the first time, tyre outlets are being licensed as safety concerns grow, not just for 'backways' fittings but over the numbers of part-worn tyres being sold.
  
• All staff of licensed retailers will now be independently assessed and accredited.
  
• The clampdown also means the licensed retailers will not sell part-worn tyres – they describe them as "potentially dangerous products".
  
• It is the first time standards have been introduced in the industry and follows a mandate from members of the Irish Tyre Industry Association (ITIA). So far, 35 outlets have been licensed.
  
• "Both from anecdotal evidence from our members and from the NCT statistics, the incorrect fitting of tyres by untrained fitters is clearly widespread, and is endangering road users," he said.

So I am not sure if this is a voluntary licensing system started by the ITIA or whether tyre suppliers are gonna have to be licensed to be able to trade.

But the comments on the part-worn tyres sounds wrong to me, there is no way that 50% of them are unsafe, this sounds like the industry trying to eliminate part worn tyres from the market.

I have personally had two disasters with tyre fitting companies, one when some idiot with an impact wrench tightened a wheel nut so tight that the stud broke when I was trying to take it off; and another occasion where the guy fitted a 185 tyre on one side and a 195 tyre on the other side (NCT fail).

Overall, I have a horrible feeling that the motorist is going to end up paying more to fund this licensing operation and it will make the market more restrictive.

meoklmrk91

Personally I think it's a bit much, tyres are expensive as it is, banning part worns is (a) wasteful and (b) instead of buying a good quality part worn people are going to be buying crappy triangle tyres. I know which I would prefer.

Truckermal

What about banning Triangles and all those Chinese ditch finders..

enricoh

think its a bit much banning all part worns - though there are plenty of cowboy places throwing anything on. people just havent got the dough for new tyres
i reckon making the min. depth 2.5mm at least is the way to go instead

Seweryn

Another nonsense.

"potentially dangerous products", oh yeah. If my tyres are over a month old, they are part-worn and dangerous.

jimgoose

Merely the latest phase of the game of "Fleece the Motorist" played in this jurisdiction since time immemorial.

unkel

They claim that 8,000 cars failed the NCT this year because rotational tyres were fitted the wrong way.

I don't believe them.

marketty

enricoh wrote: »

i reckon making the min. depth 2.5mm at least is the way to go instead

Sure if the ITIA get their way it'll be 5mm or more....
I represent the Irish Valet Industry Association and our research shows that everyone should have their car professionally cleaned once a week as it may affect safety, sure an empty water bottle could get jammed behind the brake pedal or anything, you can't put a price on safety surely?

deandean

unkel wrote: »

They claim that 8,000 cars failed the NCT this year because rotational tyres were fitted the wrong way.

I don't believe them.

Well I was one of those 8000 last year! I put my winter tyres on wrong sides, I didn't know they were directional. I just had to go home, swapped them around and go back to NCT for a visual.

But I would be very, very surprised if a reputable tyre company was to put directionals on wrong-way-round. Certainly not 7999 times last year.

MidlandsM

unkel wrote: »

They claim that 8,000 cars failed the NCT this year because rotational tyres were fitted the wrong way.

I don't believe them.

I do, turning tyres around is a trick used by some to get a tyre thru the NCT with the side wall on the outside damaged/nicked, thus getting it on the inside in the hope the tester will not spot it

GTE

I would have thought if licensing a tyre outlet, then they would be responsible for vetting part worn tyres they sell. If there are problems with what they sell (which would be traceable), they lose the license.

wexie

How is this going to help?

Banning part worn tires will just mean that those that can't afford to buy new tires will just keep driving around on the tires they already have longer.

Making them part worn...... (or, as the case may be : all worn)

Sounds like little more than some vested interests looking to sell more new tires.

colm_mcm

Ah sure you can still buy them from the north and get them delivered

TheDoc

Tyres are probably the most important thing on your car in regards to safety, its the only thing between you and the road itself. And when you consider the state of the roads here, it pays to have good tyres.

I had some wear on a tyre this summer and as I found some issues with the others I just replaced all four with brand new Firestones. Rang around, place offered me a good deal and thats me until I need to replace all four again when they start to wear.

In fairness if you go into alot of places they will warn you off buying partly warn or second hand tryes, and while its partial sales, it's also common sense. You wouldn't buy second hand shoes or socks...why buy second hand tyres..

I just hope this doesn't swindle it's way to allow garages up their prices or the likes. Typically these sort of licenses can cost money, which then gets put onto the customer. I definitely think the figure above for the NCT is inflated and this is another attempt to premeptively deal with a problem that doesn't really exist. I'd imagine the tyre failure is more due to people not having a clue about thread depth and how to measure it, rather then buying second hand tyres. And when you see the state of most roads, and the damaged speed ramps after the cold snaps, I wouldn't be suprised to hear there is a high failure rate on tyres.

TheDoc

MidlandsM wrote: »

I do, turning tyres around is a trick used by some to get a tyre thru the NCT with the side wall on the outside damaged/nicked, thus getting it on the inside in the hope the tester will not spot it

That's not just a trick for the NCT, alot if not the majority would do that to their tyres to get extra use from them, as your outside threads typically wear quicker then the inside. (afaik)

colm_mcm

Id sooner have premium part worns than Chinese rubbish on my car. Ive been using them for years without issue.
Ive driven cars with cheap tyres on and you get wheelppin on roundabouts and the abs cutting in all the time.

My car has traction and stability control and in a year the lights havent come on. If i had triangles theyd be constantly on.

djimi

If there is a ban on selling part worn tires, does this mean that every second hand car sold is now going to have to be fitted with new tires before it leaves the dealer?

GTE

unkel wrote: »

They claim that 8,000 cars failed the NCT this year because rotational tyres were fitted the wrong way.

I don't believe them.

It seems like a high number but according to the 2012 annual report at the very least, that equates to .75% of all tests carried out in that year. They make up 1.5% of the failed results.

Seems like small fish to me so I wouldn't be surprised in that many issues.

Total tests: 1,067,985
Total fails: 535,729 + 4144

That doesn't include re-tests.

joujoujou

Tyre manufacturers have no profit from part worn tyres.

That's the reason. :]

MidlandsM

TheDoc wrote: »

That's not just a trick for the NCT, alot if not the majority would do that to their tyres to get extra use from them, as your outside threads typically wear quicker then the inside. (afaik)

ehhhhh...no, incorrect - -thats to do with tracking, a different issue.

marketty

djimi wrote: »

If there is a ban on selling part worn tires, does this mean that every second hand car sold is now going to have to be fitted with new tires before it leaves the dealer?

Second hand or 'part worn' cars are next on the list to be banned I suppose

mullingar

marketty wrote: »

Second hand or 'part worn' cars are next on the list to be banned I suppose

How can the NCT check a tyres history? It simply cant.



This licencing thing is a complete farce. How can an industry body issue "licences"?
There is NO law in the land that will allow an industry lobby body such as the ITIA to allow tyres to be sold only via "licenced outlets".

http://www.tyretrade.ie/index.php/itia-set-to-launch-licensing-scheme/5562

Dont forget that the ITIA cannot overcome the free trade of goods within the EU, so I'd love to know how they can stop the trade

Andrew_Doran

.

enricoh

the car will stop a lot faster with 2.5 mm thread than if it has 1.6mm. 1.6mm is just too low in my opinion. as for the valeting bit, one look at the inside of my motor will tell u how interested i am in that!

Andrew_Doran

,

VeVeX

joujoujou wrote: »

Tyre manufacturers have no profit from part worn tyres.

That's the reason. :]

Who made the part worn tyre?

wexie

The more I think about this the less sense it makes.

It would be okay for me to drive my tires down to the legal limit, however it wouldn't be okay for me to take them off long before then and for someone else to use them down to the legal limit?

If they wanted stricter regulation and checks on the quality of part worns that would make sense.
Banning them makes no sense whatsoever and more importantly I'd be terribly surprised if it could be checked or enforced at all.
If anything it would be good for the trade in them to happen out in the open

GTE

VeVeX wrote: »

Who made the part worn tyre?

Indeed but if a part worn is used on a car, then a sale of a new tyre is taken away from a company. Short term it benefits tyre manufacturers as more new tyres are being bought but long term tracking in terms of money spent is too much for me to think about with a chicken curry on the way.

nc19

Banning tyres destined for the scrap heap cant happen soon enough

GTE

nc19 wrote: »

Banning tyres destined for the scrap heap cant happen soon enough

I think the issue is that it is not as clear cut as that.

Tea 1000

deandean wrote: »

Well I was one of those 8000 last year! I put my winter tyres on wrong sides, I didn't know they were directional. I just had to go home, swapped them around and go back to NCT for a visual.

But I would be very, very surprised if a reputable tyre company was to put directionals on wrong-way-round. Certainly not 7999 times last year.

You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've seen it from "reputable" places.

Really though, they'd be better off showing us statistics on for every fatal crash last year, what condition and brand were the tyres on the cars involved. Might be a better place to start.
Ban any tyre that falls below a certain level.

VeVeX

bbk wrote: »

Indeed but if a part worn is used on a car, then a sale of a new tyre is taken away from a company. Short term it benefits tyre manufacturers as more new tyres are being bought but long term tracking in terms of money spent is too much for me to think about with a chicken curry on the way.

Tyre manufacturers don't really care about part worn tyres. It doesn't matter to them who's driving on the tyre the fact is they sold it in the first instance.

The fact is part worn tyres are an unknown. They're like a car without a service history. If you know what to look for you're probably alright but the vast majority of motorists don't have a clue what to look for in a second hand tyre.

GTE

VeVeX wrote: »

Tyre manufacturers don't really care about part worn tyres. It doesn't matter to them who's driving on the tyre the fact is they sold it in the first instance.

The fact is part worn tyres are an unknown. They're like a car without a service history. If you know what to look for you're probably alright but if you're like the vast majority of motorists who don't have a clue when it comes to what to look for in a second hand tyre you can run into trouble.

There being an issue with the use of part worns is not what I am addressing, what I am saying which I think you are missing is that whatever proportion of part-worn sales are made in this country can only now go a new separate sale for the tyre manufacturer.

The issue with this new stance is that it is a gamble for tyre manufactures (and safety people presumably behind the plan) as sales are not guaranteed to go to the more "suitable" brands where part worn users may feel pushed to the triangle cheapo tyes due to financial reasons.

It will be interesting to see what happens but it can only mean that a half used tyre is getting ditched for a new one. The idea of the plan is that once the new one is used completely, it gets replaced with another new one which on the face of it is fine. But as I speculate, financial reasons may result in the use of cheaper and less competent tyres being chosen.

nc19

bbk wrote: »

I think the issue is that it is not as clear cut as that.

No. The issue is that every tomo, deco and anto think they are paying 25e for 'one a those jerman tyres' when in reality they are getting a tyre with 3mm of thread, multiple repaired puntures(3 recommended maximum) and a bubble on the sidewall, which was why the tyre was fitted back to front and that was nicked out of the scrap of the local atlas/advance etc.

Lets just take an example of 205/55r16
You can get a brand new brand name tyre that will do between 20-35k for between 80-100e
Or a scrap tyre with unknown issues and 3mm for 25e that might last 3 months if it doesnt kill you.
Theres a reason why a certain type of person opts for the scrap - education

GTE

nc19 wrote: »

No. The issue is that every tomo, deco and anto think they are paying 25e for 'one a those jerman tyres' when in reality they are getting a tyre with 3mm of thread, multiple repaired puntures(3 recommended maximum) and a bubble on the sidewall which was why the tyre was fitted back to front that was nicked out of the scrap of the local atlas/advance etc.

Lets just take an example of 205/55r16
You can get a brand new brand name tyre that will do between 20-35k for between 80-100e
Or a scrap tyre with unknown issues and 3mm for 25e that might last 3 months if it doesnt kill you.
Theres a reason why a certain type of person opts for the scrap - education

Those are some very exacting specifications for when the term part worn is applied which I do not believe.

Again, I don't feel it is as clear cut as you are making out. That said, I would be interested to confirm what abilities (or inabilities) are associated with determining a tyres road worthiness.

coylemj

The article in the Indo is a clever piece of PR on the part of the tyre 'industry' lobby and lazy journalism where self-serving propaganda is printed as fact.

First, what they are proposing is a system of 'self-regulation' (not Government licensing) which means that the retailers who only sell new rubber will put a fancy logo on their premises (think SIMI) followed by an advertising campaign which will imply that any rubber you buy from someone who does not have this logo will be suspect. Certification under this system will clearly involve a commitment not to sell part-worn tyres.

In 2010 the same tyre lobby put out a press release which lead to a headline in the Irish Times which proclaimed: 'One in eight cars using illegal tyres'. When you read the article however, the claim was significantly watered down to 'may have' illegally-low tyre tread and the claim was furthered undermined when the article stated that only 3.1% of NCT failures were down to defective tyres.

In their most recent Collision Statistics report (covering 2011), the RSA say that only 3% of fatal accidents are down to the condition of the vehicle so the scare stories put out by the tyre lobby should be seen in that context, it is self-serving scaremongering and nothing else.

eringobragh

Is it just me or is the tyre crowd championing this cause the same ones that deliberately disabled ABS on RTE a while back inorder to sabotage the results

eringobragh

eringobragh wrote: »

Is it just me or is the tyre crowd championing this cause the same ones that deliberately disabled ABS on RTE a while back inorder to sabotage the results

yep found it - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056412343

shill artists :mad:

VeVeX

coylemj wrote: »

In their most recent Collision Statistics report (covering 2011), the RSA say that only 3% of fatal accidents are down to the condition of the vehicle so the scare stories put out by the tyre lobby should be seen in that context, it is self-serving scaremongering and nothing else.

The problem with that stat is that it doesn't take into account accidents that could have been avoided if the vehicles involved had be fitted with a good quality tyre.

If the tyre was 25 years old or some rubbish from china but had a minimum of 1.6mm over 75% of the thread face it would not be recorded as a contributory factor.

twowheelsonly

TheDoc wrote: »

Tyres are probably the most important thing on your car in regards to safety, its the only thing between you and the road itself. And when you consider the state of the roads here, it pays to have good tyres.

I had some wear on a tyre this summer and as I found some issues with the others I just replaced all four with brand new Firestones. Rang around, place offered me a good deal and thats me until I need to replace all four again when they start to wear.

In fairness if you go into alot of places they will warn you off buying partly warn or second hand tryes, and while its partial sales, it's also common sense. You wouldn't buy second hand shoes or socks...why buy second hand tyres..

Some people do buy second hand shoes etc., it's all down to finance, just ask in your local Charity shop, you'd be amazed. As important as it is, not everyone has the money to spend on new tyres every time.

nc19 wrote: »

.......Lets just take an example of 205/55r16
You can get a brand new brand name tyre that will do between 20-35k for between 80-100e
Or a scrap tyre with unknown issues and 3mm for 25e that might last 3 months if it doesnt kill you.
Theres a reason why a certain type of person opts for the scrap - education

There's a second reason - financial constraints. Another way to look at your example is a full set for €350 to €400 or a full set for €100. Loads of people are willing to take that chance and go for the cheaper option. Personally I'm not but I can perfectly understand why some people don't have a problem with it.


As an aside, I'd love to know how many part-worn tyres were sold last year Vs how many caused problems.

deandean

eringobragh wrote: »

Is it just me or is the tyre crowd championing this cause the same ones that deliberately disabled ABS on RTE a while back inorder to sabotage the results

And wasn't one of tbose leading tyre suppliers exposed a couple of years ago for giving jollies to gatdai around the time a big contract was awarded?

Sobanek

Hey! How many vehicles failed emissions this year? Maybe we should ban petrol and diesel cars and switch to electric!

****ing idiots.

GTE

twowheelsonly wrote: »

There's a second reason - financial constraints. Another way to look at your example is a full set for €350 to €400 or a full set for €100. Loads of people are willing to take that chance and go for the cheaper option. Personally I'm not but I can perfectly understand why some people don't have a problem with it.

Something in addition to this is the users perspective and whether it is considered a chance at all. All across the specialty boards here you can have issues with perspective. Most of the users here have such an interest in motoring that we can see past certain campaigns. We know what is stupid and can all have a golly aul laugh over it.

However, lets just say that every part worn tyre is fundamentally unsafe with those (admittedly questionable) minimum standards of a part worn tyre that the user nc19 speculated.

The question is now, outside of the subset of people who have an interest in motoring, are the sellers of part worn tyres telling potential customers of these tyre conditions? Probably not. Are they being told that a part worn tyre that is worn enough is probably going to cost you more in the long run (cost to tread depth/wear)? Probably not.

Can at least some of the part worns sold in the country be of the standard nc19 speculates? Absolutely. All of them? I wouldn't believe that for an instant.

So I think the fundamental thing that is not being done is some sort of assessment of part worns to determine what is safe and what is not which would determine what can be sold and what can not. From my point of view, tyres are checked in the NCT so how can they tell me my tyres which are part worn at the time of the test are roadworthy but that part worns taken off other cars are not? So I think there is scope to have assessment of tyres before they are allowed to be sold and this could tie into the licensed tyre dealer announcement.

That would solve the problem mentioned earlier about people being forced onto cheap and questionable new tyres.

Bigus

mullingar wrote: »

How can the NCT check a tyres history? It simply cant.



This licencing thing is a complete farce. How can an industry body issue "licences"?
There is NO law in the land that will allow an industry lobby body such as the ITIA to allow tyres to be sold only via "licenced outlets".

http://www.tyretrade.ie/index.php/itia-set-to-launch-licensing-scheme/5562

Dont forget that the ITIA cannot overcome the free trade of goods within the EU, so I'd love to know how they can stop the trade

Well said,but people need to read your post.


Fact

Part worn tyres are not banned.

Licensing is not by regulatory body, so it is a worthless marketing ploy, should be illegal in itself to call oneself licensed when In fact you are not.

Marcusm

enricoh wrote: »

think its a bit much banning all part worns - though there are plenty of cowboy places throwing anything on. people just havent got the dough for new tyres
i reckon making the min. depth 2.5mm at least is the way to go instead

That's a bit low; 5.3 gone out of 6.4 original wear capacity probably gives a fall sense of security.

Spark Plug

It would be nice if the ITIA did something about players in the industry selling grey imports

Seweryn

nc19 wrote: »

No. The issue is that every tomo, deco and anto think they are paying 25e for 'one a those jerman tyres' when in reality they are getting a tyre with 3mm of thread, multiple repaired puntures(3 recommended maximum) and a bubble on the sidewall, which was why the tyre was fitted back to front and that was nicked out of the scrap of the local atlas/advance etc.

How do you know that a second hand tyre had any punctures in its previous life at all? The thread depth specification is another nonsense.

pippip

I've gotten part worns the last few times from Tyreland in Glasnevin.
They have different grades - "A" Which are 75% and above thread left, or "B" which are 50-75%. They used to have "C" which were basically for just passing the NCT and thats all.

I got 205 55 r16. Continental Sport Contact on all four corners. €100 each new, got for €48 each in Tyreland, balancing, fitting etc all included. I got all 4 wheels.

They brought the set out for me to check before fitting & I gave them a good checking for imperfections. They were as good as new, even had some of the little thread needles still on them. They must have only been on a previous car for a quick spin.

Now I would admit money was the issue at the time but I really cannot complain, they have been very good.

_Kaiser_

Hang on, Hang on!!

I'm after reading the linked article twice and nowhere do I see a mention of the RSA, DoT, Leo or Gaybo

The NCT has released a report that says that 8000 cars failed because of incorrectly fitted tyres and this ITIA crowd (SIMI for tyre fitters) have introduced some sort of self-licensing system where to qualify, part-worn tyres can't be sold.

It is the first time standards have been introduced in the industry and follows a mandate from members of the Irish Tyre Industry Association (ITIA). So far, 35 outlets have been licensed.

ITIA president Kevin Farrell says the new self-regulation system should reduce the numbers having to get their cars retested due to tyre issues.

But.. I don't see any "official" backing for this article/measure. Looks to me like scaremongering/shoddy journalism more than anything.

Stand to be corrected though!

ArnieSilvia

Long winded post here but there's a bigger picture to it.

This certification is all down to safety of all of us but it's not that straightforward. There are responsible people and there are clowns in the business and I come across both.

The tyre industry campaign for self regulation started a long time ago and really kicked off due to fatalities that occured to famous 2001 Firestone equipped SUV's. I was told at the time that high payouts won in courts were due to Firestone neglect on manufacturing standards, namely procedures, training and traceability. Firestone had to be bailed out by Bridgestone (IIRC) to survive.

Following that massive payments, franchisor to our business (Bandag) decided to implement their own standards, procedures to cover themselves and franchisee in case of court case. I assume this was a part of insurance deal as well.

In my "previous life", as a part of truck tyre retreader qualification (Bandag Master Craftsman) I was professionally trained and examined on used tyre (carcass) inspection. This involved any discolouration and mechanical damage, repairs and modern methods (shearography among others) etc.

Based on the training and manufacturing procedures and records for traceability the company could guarantee same standard for every tyre made.

Exact same principles for tyre inspection apply to second hand tyre market.

Years ago, when I was trading new & retreaded then second hand truck tyres I had my Master Craftsman cert to back me up in case something went wrong.

I wouldnt' dare to sell second hand tyre without some sort of certification. These could be reasonably easy to obtain from 2 day courses from companies selling tyre repair materials and machinery (Rema Tip Top etc). People who manufacture these would have authority to certify their users. It's not in their interest though to back up second hand tyre business.

And yes, these who don't get themselves trained are just ignorant and put others at risk.

Yes, bad tyre can kill. You can't inspect them 100% but who said that tyres on your second hand car are any better?

My personal opinion -
I use second hand tyres for my daily run around because they are usually good brands and cheap. IMO Better alternative than plastic-fantastic "budget" ditch finders chinese crap. BUT I'm able to check them myself before fitting.
I've always used brand new premium brand tyres (best ones I could afford) on my sports cars - my usual choice was GY Eagle GSD3, have new Vredesteins waiting here ready to be fitted. Bear in mind, these cars were checked bumper to bumper every weekend and with over 300 bhp do speeds.

Ironically (this is also my own opinion), I noticed much better standard of tyre fitting service as such in second hand tyre businesses in Ireland than normal ones. They used lots of tyre paste, every wheel balanced without asking etc. It's also down to the equipment they have available (can be bad/loose arm as well damaging rim etc etc)

ArnieSilvia

It's also important to distinguish between recommendation and legislation. A while back I read in Pirelli brochure that they don't recommend patching punctures on their tyres (not to mention plugs used in Ireland - a joke IMO) because they cause local overheating at speed and might cause tyre failure.
I know there is a marketing issue here but surely they did their homework in the lab as well

So yeah, it's not recommended to put a patch but people do it.
I would not use a patched tyre on a car doing say 140 km/h plus

And lastly, those selling as they call them "all season" winter tyres in the summer are clowns.
I had winter tyres on for the winter as you would want it in cold climate and they were great in snow and all but I had to do emergency braking on them on a warm day 20-something degC and could not believe how fast they caught smoke and braking distance was massive. Lesson learned, NOT GOOD for the summer.