To anyone with a foreign (non-Irish) driver's licence

Sobanek

Hey guys, so, I was on the phone with my insurance company today, and I was told that from January 2014, all car insurance policies/renewals will be cheaper if you have an IRISH driver's licence.

Just thought I'd give you all a heads up!

Dord

Is this just something the insurance companies dreamt up?

tatli_lokma

That was pretty much always the way it was - they risk load non-Irish licences. My husband gets cheaper insurance on a provisional Irish licence than he does on a full foreign licence.

biko

Maybe I've seen too many Russian dashcam vids but...

Sobanek

Example: My mother's policy has just been renewed for €390, but the guy said that if she renewed in January and had an Irish licence, it would come down to €336, whereas it wouldn't make a difference today.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Stinicker

Sounds like racial discrimination, an EU license was pan-european I thought. I can just imagine the lawyers having a wet dream on this if it is true.

biko

I don't see how it's "racial" if it's Ireland vs everyone else.

timmy4u2

I did not think that there was still such a thing as an Irish Licence. I understood that they are now a European licence.
The Insurance companies get over the racist bit as all insurance is based on risk assessment but perhaps the European Court may have issues with it.
I would have thought the easist way of loading the European "foreigner" would have been on residency.

Mellor

Stinicker wrote: »

Sounds like racial discrimination, an EU license was pan-european I thought. I can just imagine the lawyers having a wet dream on this if it is true.

It's risk assessment.
I imagine it wouldn't be very hard for them for pull out some stats out that that back up a perceived higher risk..

scudzilla

Been driving over here for 8yrs on a full UK license, no accidents, no claims, been driving 23yrs with no claims, and they're gonna penalise me?

toyotaavensis

I think the reason for this is Irish insurance companies cant find out if foreign licence holders including those from the EU have penalty points. It is fair enough that they get an insurance loading then. EU licence holders are free to exchange their licence for one of ours at any time.

tatli_lokma

Just a point, but aRussian licence isn't an EU licence.

There was a thread on here and while ago about this and the legality of it. It's not racist but it is discriminatory. I'll see if I can find it....

Here it is. It's to do with length of residency but technically much of the same applies to both
http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057006084/4/#post86288478

nd

Mellor wrote: »

It's risk assessment.
I imagine it wouldn't be very hard for them for pull out some stats out that that back up a perceived higher risk..

But wasn't there a European judgement that means they can't charge men and women different rates as it's discrimination?

keithclancy

nd wrote: »

But wasn't there a European judgement that means they can't charge men and women different rates as it's discrimination?

Yeh.. except and Irish woman could have a german license and a german man could have an irish license and the Irish woman would pay more regardless of where they were from or their gender.

lazza14

If you have an license from a country from the EU, is it a straight swap deal ?
or do you need to do the theory test again ?

Mellor

nd wrote: »

But wasn't there a European judgement that means they can't charge men and women different rates as it's discrimination?

Not really relevant tbh.
Previously gender based risk assessment was permitted because it was statistically accurate. It was relevant data. For example men's shorter life expectancy in terms of life insurance.

However, the EU stepped in and said that despite the stats backing up the risk assessment, equality laws rank higher and they can no longer use that data.
But it was specific to gender. They can still use other demographics to assess risk.

So young drivers will still pay more.

toyotaavensis

lazza14 wrote: »

If you have an license from a country from the EU, is it a straight swap deal ?
or do you need to do the theory test again ?

straight swap

djimi

Its rather ridiculous consdering you can swap the license easily for an Irish license, so unless they are saying that by filling out a form you are automatically a safer driver, Im not sure where they are going with this one.

However, insurance being based on risk profiling, they will no doubt show a stat that claims that non-Irish license holders have more/higher cost claims than Irish license holders, so they need to charge more to cover the increased risk. Its not exactly a fair system (and is the reason why young males have been screwed in this country for years when it comes to insurance), but unless someone challenges it as with the gender issue its not going to change.

I would have thought that they would have more sense than to come out and blatently say that nationality/license type is an issue however; surely that is just a **** storm waiting to happen.

BailMeOut

scudzilla wrote: »

Been driving over here for 8yrs on a full UK license, no accidents, no claims, been driving 23yrs with no claims, and they're gonna penalise me?

I ended up switching my IRL for a GB license in UK as UK insurance companies do same thing.

dr.fuzzenstein

(Yawn) This comes up every six months, been hearing this for decades now. It can only be called an urban legend.
Once, many years ago, I was informed by my insurance broker that I would be penalised to the tune of 20% because I hold a "fordeign" licence.
Made a few calls and was informed that is in fact illegal to penalise me for that. Informed my broker, no more talk of loading my licence.
I'm trying to find the relevant legislation, but it is something along the lines that you cannot penalise anyone for holding an EU licence.

tatli_lokma

djimi wrote: »

Its rather ridiculous consdering you can swap the license easily for an Irish license, so unless they are saying that by filling out a form you are automatically a safer driver, Im not sure where they are going with this one.

However, insurance being based on risk profiling, they will no doubt show a stat that claims that non-Irish license holders have more/higher cost claims than Irish license holders, so they need to charge more to cover the increased risk. Its not exactly a fair system (and is the reason why young males have been screwed in this country for years when it comes to insurance), but unless someone challenges it as with the gender issue its not going to change.

I would have thought that they would have more sense than to come out and blatently say that nationality/license type is an issue however; surely that is just a **** storm waiting to happen.

Only EU licences can be swapped. But a lot of other nationalities outside the EU would have to sit the Irish test in full. And then of course the years they held a full licence in their own country wouldn't be taken into consideration.

If you read the thread I linked to it discusses asking the length of residency which has been deemed to be discriminatory as it is clearly done to identify non-national drivers. I think this falls into the same category, IMO.

Guy:Incognito

djimi wrote: »

Its rather ridiculous consdering you can swap the license easily for an Irish license, so unless they are saying that by filling out a form you are automatically a safer driver, Im not sure where they are going with this one.

However, insurance being based on risk profiling, they will no doubt show a stat that claims that non-Irish license holders have more/higher cost claims than Irish license holders, so they need to charge more to cover the increased risk. Its not exactly a fair system (and is the reason why young males have been screwed in this country for years when it comes to insurance), but unless someone challenges it as with the gender issue its not going to change.

I would have thought that they would have more sense than to come out and blatently say that nationality/license type is an issue however; surely that is just a **** storm waiting to happen.

They can only keep track of points on an irish licence though. Some guy with a spanish licence might have a rake load of points or be disqualified already for nunerous drink driving convictions, how would they know.

vibe666

it's been going on for years.

it was cheaper for myself and my wife to get her insured as the main driver on our first car (a crappy old fiesta) as an irish learner driver than it was for me with a full UK license for over 10 years.

we were never sure if it was because i was male or because it was a UK license (or both), but it was kind of annoying.

Alun

When I swapped my Dutch licence for an Irish one a couple of years ago it made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the premium. I did have some trouble when I first arrived here about 12 years ago finding someone to accept me, but after that I can't say I noticed any difference.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

munchkin_utd

it does sound a bit like an urban myth, with the only reasoning or logic possibly behind it being true being that having an irish licence means you do get points so maybe would be more likely to take it easy or be safer on the road.

Seamus1964

This urban myth makes actually sense

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And rightly so, imo - going on those two facts.

vibe666

vibe666 wrote: »

it's been going on for years.

it was cheaper for myself and my wife to get her insured as the main driver on our first car (a crappy old fiesta) as an irish learner driver than it was for me with a full UK license for over 10 years.

we were never sure if it was because i was male or because it was a UK license (or both), but it was kind of annoying.

I have a UK licence and it makes no difference to my premium.

dr.fuzzenstein

Keegan Thundering Senior wrote: »

I have a UK licence and it makes no difference to my premium.

Ditto for my German licence, it's just that every now and then the usual "Oh jaysus, can't be doin' that!" crowd pipes up with their usual blarney.
My premium is safe, I have recently renewed and heard nothing of this and have not received any correspondence regarding this.
Since this thread contains no facts pertaining to this other than "jaysus dem fordeigners should be paying more, so they should", I can only say that this is a right load of manure and can be safely ignored.

If anyone has a link like www.bastardforeignersshouldbepayingmore.ie do please post it, my breath is bated as we speak.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Ditto for my German licence, it's just that every now and then the usual "Oh jaysus, can't be doin' that!" crowd pipes up with their usual blarney.
My premium is safe, I have recently renewed and heard nothing of this and have not received any correspondence regarding this.
Since this thread contains no facts pertaining to this other than "jaysus dem fordeigners should be paying more, so they should", I can only say that this is a right load of manure and can be safely ignored.

If anyone has a link like www.bastardforeignersshouldbepayingmore.ie do please post it, my breath is baited as we speak.

I don't think that nations like UK/DE/FR etc are penalized, moreso people with licenses from countries further east - where the driving standard is poor and the test is easy.

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't think that nations like UK/DE/FR etc are penalized, moreso people with licenses from countries further east - where the driving standard is poor and the test is easy.

AFAIK they can't penalise any EU licence holders. So, methinks, you can't load someone for holding a Polish licence, since the EU agreement doesn't distinguish between different countries.
So really it should be stated that possibly people with non-Eu licences will be loaded, because you can't pick and choose as far as EU licences are concerned.
But nothing would surprise me with Irish insurance companies.

harryr711

If you try to get insurance with a foreign licence in other EU countries they load the premium, and they also load the premium depending on how long you've been in the country.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

AFAIK they can't penalise any EU licence holders. So, methinks, you can't load someone for holding a Polish licence, since the EU agreement doesn't distinguish between different countries.
So really it should be stated that possibly people with non-Eu licences will be loaded, because you can't pick and choose as far as EU licences are concerned.
But nothing would surprise me with Irish insurance companies.

Bunch of underegulated robbin' ba$tards, think I've made my opinion on them quite clear in this forum in the past :P

But I would agree with them loading the likes of a polish license in this instance. I wonder do they do it, and if they do, has anyone challenged it legally?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

harryr711 wrote: »

If you try to get insurance with a foreign licence in other EU countries they load the premium, and they also load the premium depending on how long you've been in the country.

This is allowed, and again, I agree with it. After all it is plain to see the corellation between length of time in a country and the risk posed.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

jelenka

I think it depends on the insurer you are with . My partner changed his EU licence a month ago and received some money back from his insurer .

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Pretty much what I guessed, in my post above (on the last page)

ardmacha

So really it should be stated that possibly people with non-Eu licences will be loaded, because you can't pick and choose as far as EU licences are concerned.

A person with a non EU licence could not drive on it for a significant period of time in any case, they would have to get an Irish licence.

The EU has cocked up, they have created a very desirable situation where people can move around. But they have not ensured that points, disqualifications or even driving tests etc work in a seamless way across the EU, which is a requirement of full freedom of movement.

Driving licences should be denominations of an EU licence then discrimination would not be justified.

tatli_lokma

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

This is allowed, and again, I agree with it. After all it is plain to see the corellation between length of time in a country and the risk posed.

If you read the thread I posted earlier it is no longer allowed as it is discriminatory.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

tatli_lokma wrote: »

If you read the thread I posted earlier it is no longer allowed as it is discriminatory.

It is of course allowed to load based on time living in the country?? This is commonplace!

timmy4u2

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

It is of course allowed to load based on time living in the country?? This is commonplace!

But is it legal?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

timmy4u2 wrote: »

But is it legal?

It is the same basis used in many other areas (for example, when the UEFA rules regarding "foreign" player quotas based on nationality were ruled to be discriminatory under EU law, they changed it to time spent living in the country)

There are other examples, I doubt that it is illegal.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

timmy4u2

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

It is the same basis used in many other areas (for example, when the UEFA rules regarding "foreign" player quotas based on nationality were ruled to be discriminatory under EU law, they changed it to time spent living in the country)

There are other examples, I doubt that it is illegal.

You might note from my first post on this that I mentioned time spent in the Country.
I do not believe that it is legal to charge higher insurance premiums just on where a driving licence was sourced wher legislation exists for the exchange of such licence.

The whole question of Insurance quotes being discriminatory or not are outlined in Section 5 (2) d of the Equal Status Act 2000

This section states that quotes are not at variance with the act if made on Actuarial or statistical data obtained from a source on which it is reasonable to rely upon.....

Or other relevant underwriting or commercial factors....

I would doubt that there exists actuarial or statistical date that can be relied upon to allow unfettered quotes on the grounds of when a licence to drive was obtained.
I could believe that there is such aforesaid reliable data to allow higher quotes for drivers who have been driving on the opposite side of the road prior to their recent arrival in Ireland.

Another case for the European Court of Justice.

tatli_lokma

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

It is of course allowed to load based on time living in the country?? This is commonplace!

Time living in a country does not necessarily equate to driving experience. I could have moved to Ireland when I was 12 and at 20 apply for insurance. I could only possibly have 3 years driving experience, so asking me how long I have lived in the country is irrelevant.

Another example is I move to the UK from say the Ukraine. I have 10 years driving experience in the Ukraine. I then get insurance and a further 5 years experience in the UK. I then move to Ireland. If I get asked about residency I would have to say I am less than 1 year resident in Ireland. Many insurance companies won't even quote you if you are less than 3 years resident. But as with the example given, you could have several years experience in a country which has very similar rules of the road but this would not be even taken into consideration. Highly discriminatory.

tatli_lokma

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

It is of course allowed to load based on time living in the country?? This is commonplace!

Time living in a country does not necessarily equate to driving experience. I could have moved to Ireland when I was 12 and at 20 apply for insurance. I could only possibly have 3 years driving experience, so asking me how long I have lived in the country is irrelevant.

Another example is I move to the UK from say the Ukraine. I have 10 years driving experience in the Ukraine. I then get insurance and a further 5 years experience in the UK. I then move to Ireland. If I get asked about residency I would have to say I am less than 1 year resident in Ireland. Many insurance companies won't even quote you if you are less than 3 years resident. But as with the example given, you could have several years experience in a country which has very similar rules of the road but this would not be even taken into consideration. Highly discriminatory.

CiniO

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't think that nations like UK/DE/FR etc are penalized, moreso people with licenses from countries further east - where the driving standard is poor and the test is easy.

How would they judge the driving standard and easiness of driving test by country?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.