Anybody get this email from the nargc about tail docking

ronn

I got this today didn't get anything last week though.
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Dear All,

Further to my previous email last week asking everyone to contact Fine Gael TD’s to lobby their Minister, Simon Coveney, to sign the Statutory Instrument which would allow the docking of tails for some working breeds, I have to say the response to my email calling for a lobby has been very poorly supported. My thanks of course to those who did act on the call. I very much regret to report that we are now in serious trouble as the veterinary profession, supported by the Dogs’ Trust and the ISPCA would appear to be very close to persuading the Minister to implement a complete ban save for medical reasons. The Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture is evenly divided on the issue with surprisingly, Eamon O’Cuiv being very vocal in his call for a full ban at the Committee’s meeting in private session last Wednesday night. We are losing this battle simply because we are not being as pro-active as the anti faction. At best, we have about one week to turn this around and then only by a very active and intense lobby. I attach a letter I have written to the Veterinary Council and another to the Minister, both of which are self-explanatory. Both of the NARGC’s Seanad nominees, Pat O’Neill of Fine Gael and Paschal Mooney of Fianna Fail, who are both on the Agriculture Committee, have staunchly defended the hunting position. I have been in almost daily contact with both and with the officials in the Department who are very supportive but who have also lost ground to the veterinary lobby. It is an unfortunate, but alas a reality, that the Minister has a tendency to try to be all things to all men and likes to be popular with everyone. We need to get the message across that the proposal to allow an exemption for a small number of working breeds is a sensible compromise which will be widely supported and that the alternative will be for general tail docking to continue outside a legal framework and driven underground with no hope of enforcement. This will be a very bad welfare outcome.

As for the argument that such procedure should in any event only be carried out by vets, who seem to have changed their position, it should be pointed out that hunters are already being trained and certified to carry out ante mortem.

Inspections to meet EU Regulation (EC) 853/2004, which is the regulation now requiring traceability for meat harvested in the wild (game meat) and which is destined for the food chain. NARGC is the body in the state authorised by the Department of Agriculture’s Veterinary Division and the Local Authorities’ Veterinary Division to provide this training to hunters and the process is much more detailed and complicated, involving as it does the examination of internal organs, glands etc and identifying potential threats to health. It is also the case that since February 1st 2013, DEFRA in the UK will not allow game meat in the fur into the UK without the NARGC qualified person having certified the carcases. Therefore to suggest that only a vet could safely carry out the simple procedure of tail docking and dew claw removal within four days of birth of the dog when no anaesthetic is required, is most disingenuous and imply untrue.


TD clinics, especially the Minister’s, need to be hit hard this weekend. a list of those who are on the Agriculture and these should also be targeted.

Please marshal your members and bring them out. This may be the only opportunity we have before losing the battle completely.

A list of those politicians who are on the Agriculture Committee can be found on the link below and should also be targeted.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/agenda/committees_list/agriculturefoodandthemarine/members/


Des Crofton,
National Director
NARGC

Director
FACE Ireland

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Got a reply from my TD.
Minister Coveney is currently considering this issue, in particular a piece of research being conducted in Scotland where a total ban is in place, to ascertain how this is affecting dogs involved in hunting.

As far as I know this study will be completed by the end of the year and will report in early 2014, I expect they will address the welfare impacts on hunting dogs if not docked, it seems this was the specific issue that initiated the study in the first place.

The Minister is keen to have sight of this report before making a final decision on whether to apply a total ban or to permit restricted and controlled tail docking in certain cases.

I will pass on your views and will keep you posted on developments.

Regards,

Andrew.


Andrew Doyle TD
Wicklow–East Carlow
andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie

Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine

Dáil Éireann, Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2. Ph: 01 618 3611
Constituency Office, 2a The Lower Mall, Wicklow Town, Co. Wicklow. Ph: 0404 66622

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Ronan Doyle ---22/11/2013 17:23:56---I'm writing to you to ask you to not allow the ban on tail docking come in, I'm an keen hunter and

From: Ronan Doyle <doyleronan@hotmail.com>
To: "andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie" <andrew.doyle@oireachtas.ie>
Date: 22/11/2013 17:23
Subject: Tail docking



I'm writing to you to ask you to not allow the ban on tail docking come in, I'm an keen hunter and to have a working dog out in the field without its tail docked is nothing but cruelty.
Please vote no.

Rònàn Doyle


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cookimonster

Yep

beretta686s

Yep yep

lb1981

gets popcorn ....this wont end well

ronn

lb1981 wrote: »

gets popcorn ....this wont end well

Ill phrase that anybody not get this e-mail

dodderangler

Maybe only gun club members would receive this because I didn't get one

yubabill1

My 2c sent this week;

Editor, Sunday Times,


I would be more inclined to buy scientifically-tested face cream based on representative sample size than believe the studies cited on tail-docking from both sides. It is clear the Dept. of Agriculture agrees.

It is easy to build simplistic, emotive arguments around animal welfare, with potentially retrograde consequences. Witness the recent relaxation of EU quarantine laws for dogs coming to the UK and Ireland and the genuine fears now being raised regarding rabies.

The Dept. of Agriculture is to be applauded for listening to reason and protecting the taxpayer from possible action from owners of injured animals.

Shame on the vets, insulated from these actions, for this exposure and for forcing tails to be docked without anaesthetic.



Sincerely

yubabill1

Copied op and sent to Andrew Doyle.

J.R.

ronn wrote: »

Ill phrase that anybody not get this e-mail

I didn't get it & I'm in the NARGC. None of the other lads in the club got it either.

Saying that, I don't ever remember the NARGC asking for my e-mail address.

How did they get your e-mail address...did they ask for it on renewal?

wexfordman2

J.R. wrote: »

I didn't get it & I'm in the NARGC. None of the other lads in the club got it either.

Saying that, I don't ever remember the NARGC asking for my e-mail address.

How did they get your e-mail address...did they ask for it on renewal?

Ditto, the nargc complained about a poor response, but I never got anything either. Perhaps the nargc need to review how they compile contact lists etc cos I don't remember ever giving them an email address.

J.R.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Ditto, the nargc complained about a poor response, but I never got anything either. Perhaps the nargc need to review how they compile contact lists etc cos I don't remember ever giving them an email address.

PLUS...........there's no mention of it on the NARGC website ..............asking members to lobby. http://nargc.ie/

J.R.

The DOGS TRUST comments on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/dogstrustireland

grassroot1

You will only have received this email if you put your email address into the box on the NARGC website. The poor response statement was aimed at county officers. If you do one thing this weekend lobby by email or phone you FG T.D and let them know you require an exemption for working dogs on welfare grounds and that you require non vet competent persons to be able to dock tails. We can all spare 5 mins Good luck

323

Am an NARGC member and used to be on the mailing list, not received anything from them in a few years.

Did not get this nor has at least three of my local club I have spoken to.

cavan shooter

I think the NARGC recently set up a newsletter that you can sign up for, I know thats how I gave them my e mail. Also the County Secretaries may have got them I saw it on Cavan RGC facebook page.....

I meant to add when I contacted some lads about it, the enthusiasm for writing to TD's was how do you say it over overwhelmingly apathetic, with one man going onto say whats it to do with him he has pointers.

yubabill1

J.R. wrote: »

The DOGS TRUST comments on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/dogstrustireland

The same dogs trust that euthanizes more dogs than it homes - much like the rspb oiling eggs and having undesirable birds shot.
Sunday Times says coveney waiting for a Scottish study to complete before acting.

Fussgangerzone

Am I confused, or can you still get a vet to dock dogs tails if you want?
Is it not DIY docking that's being got rid of?

yubabill1

AFAIK, right now, vets won't dock a dog's tail unless on "welfare" grounds - i.e.; under no circumstances.

law not in yet, so it's legal to carry on as before, I presume.

deeksofdoom

yubabill1 wrote: »

AFAIK, right now, vets won't dock a dog's tail unless on "welfare" grounds - i.e.; under no circumstances.

law not in yet, so it's legal to carry on as before, I presume.

They'll never be able/want to enforce it, just trying to copy the brits all the time, clueless people trying to pass laws on issues they know nothing about.

snipe02

yubabill1 wrote: »

AFAIK, right now, vets won't dock a dog's tail unless on "welfare" grounds - i.e.; under no circumstances.

law not in yet, so it's legal to carry on as before, I presume.

The vet council in ireland will not allow the vets to dock tails of litters they would take away the vets lisence to practice

hedgehog2

Tail docking is a barbaric practice.
Not wanted or needed in Ireland and I welcome the ban.

grassroot1

Tail docking is a preventative measure to protect working dogs from injury while working in the field. It is neither barbaric or cruel but done with the animals welfare in mind. It is standard practice to dock the tails of lambs and piglets by a competent person i.e the farmer why are working dogs any different

hedgehog2

grassroot1 wrote: »

Tail docking is a preventative measure to protect working dogs from injury while working in the field. It is neither barbaric or cruel but done with the animals welfare in mind. It is standard practice to dock the tails of lambs and piglets by a competent person i.e the farmer why are working dogs any different

How can people be so ignorant:eek:

deeksofdoom

hedgehog2 wrote: »

How can people be so ignorant:eek:

You've obviously never seen the an injuries a working dog with an undocked tail can do to itself.:(

Come back when you have an informed opinion on the subject.:rolleyes:

borderlinemeath

grassroot1 wrote: »

Tail docking is a preventative measure to protect working dogs from injury while working in the field. It is neither barbaric or cruel but done with the animals welfare in mind. It is standard practice to dock the tails of lambs and piglets by a competent person i.e the farmer why are working dogs any different

The problem is it's not just working dogs getting docked. Dobermans, Rotties and Boxers are routinely docked for no reason at all, they don't work in the field, they are rarely used for guarding anymore and breeders are doing it purely for aesthetic purposes, welfare doesn't come into it. JRTs/Yorkshire terriers are another, while some argue they can be used for vermin control, it's certainly not a blanket use for these breeds, they're far more popular as pets than working.

I'd much rather see a working dog with a tail who might possibly have an injury (just as humans are susceptible to injuries, yet we don't go amputating our appendages, just in case) than a botch job without anesthetic carried out on an entire litter because they come from working stock.

hedgehog2

deeksofdoom wrote: »

You've obviously never seen the an injuries a working dog with an undocked tail can do to itself.:(

Come back when you have an informed opinion on the subject.:rolleyes:

No I have seen the botched job back of a shed tail docking suffering on the animal,why do you think the white tip were breed into the beagle for instance so hunters can see them in the cover,great hunters with a tail:pac:
Its not necessary and a back arsed practice that rightfully should be left in the past.
Let me clip your baby toe off then,sure ya don`t need it and it sometimes gets clipped by a piece of furniture:rolleyes:

deeksofdoom

hedgehog2 wrote: »

No I have seen the botched job back of a shed tail docking suffering on the animal,why do you think the white tip were breed into the beagle for instance so hunters can see them in the cover,great hunters with a tail:pac:
Its not necessary and a back arsed practice that rightfully should be left in the past.
Let me clip your baby toe off then,sure ya don`t need it and it sometimes gets clipped by a piece of furniture:rolleyes:

Would you mind expanding on the botched job you witnessed?

EPointer=Birdss

hedgehog2 wrote: »

No I have seen the botched job back of a shed tail docking suffering on the animal,why do you think the white tip were breed into the beagle for instance so hunters can see them in the cover,great hunters with a tail:pac:
Its not necessary and a back arsed practice that rightfully should be left in the past.
Let me clip your baby toe off then,sure ya don`t need it and it sometimes gets clipped by a piece of furniture:rolleyes:

If you don't hunt or work over dogs that hunt cover your opinion on the subject is ignorant to the facts.
Spaniels hunt through everything from Blackthorn to Brambles. Tail docking minimizes chance of injury.
Setting dogs don't to the same degree so don't require it. Personally I would never dock the tail of a setting dog as there is no need. German Pointers are docked. Personally I don't see the purpose.
Discussions about dogs docked for cosmetic reasons such as boxers really is a topic for the pet forum.
Some breeds of hunting dogs have required this for 100s of years others haven't.
Emposing a ban on this or putting it to public vote is just another reason for people who have opinions about things they don't understand emposing their opinion on others. Usual Irish nonsense! :rolleyes:

borderlinemeath

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

If you don't hunt or work over dogs that hunt cover your opinion on the subject is ignorant to the facts.
Spaniels hunt through everything from Blackthorn to Brambles. Tail docking minimizes chance of injury.
Setting dogs don't to the same degree so don't require it. Personally I would never dock the tail of a setting dog as there is no need. German Pointers are docked. Personally I don't see the purpose.
Discussions about dogs docked for cosmetic reasons such as boxers really is a topic for the pet forum.
Some breeds of hunting dogs have required this for 100s of years others haven't.
Emposing a ban on this or putting it to public vote is just another reason for people who have opinions about things they don't understand emposing their opinion on others. Usual Irish nonsense! :rolleyes:

Discussions regarding cosmetic/aesthetic docking have a lot to do with this bill as the loophole would have allowed anybody to dock any breed, so lobbying for working dogs is leaving the door open for the rest of the breeds.

Personally, I don't hunt with my setters but they sure as hell don't hold back if there's a bird or a rat in a ditch/cover. They've come back with many a cut or a graze and half the bush stuck in their coats.

EPointer=Birdss

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Discussions regarding cosmetic/aesthetic docking have a lot to do with this bill as the loophole would have allowed anybody to dock any breed, so lobbying for working dogs is leaving the door open for the rest of the breeds.

Personally, I don't hunt with my setters but they sure as hell don't hold back if there's a bird or a rat in a ditch/cover. They've come back with many a cut or a graze and half the bush stuck in their coats.

The 30 seconds they spend vs the hours a day a spaniels does is apples & oranges as regards a comparison. My pointer spends a lot more time in ditches than chasing rats but he is no spaniel & picks his steps as the vast majority do.
Lobbying for working dogs has nothing got to do with a loophole. Working breeds have a a purpose bar cosmetics. It is very easy to seperate the 2 in the print of a bill.

hedgehog2

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

The 30 seconds they spend vs the hours a day a spaniels does is apples & oranges as regards a comparison. My pointer spends a lot more time in ditches than chasing rats but he is no spaniel & picks his steps as the vast majority do.
Lobbying for working dogs has nothing got to do with a loophole. Working breeds have a a purpose bar cosmetics. It is very easy to seperate the 2 in the print of a bill.

What a load of tripe,close any loophole to this practice and prosecute any eejit who continues to dock tails.

borderlinemeath

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

The 30 seconds they spend vs the hours a day a spaniels does is apples & oranges as regards a comparison. My pointer spends a lot more time in ditches than chasing rats but he is no spaniel & picks his steps as the vast majority do.
Lobbying for working dogs has nothing got to do with a loophole. Working breeds have a a purpose bar cosmetics. It is very easy to seperate the 2 in the print of a bill.

But the loophole was going to be written in and it would have given the go ahead for breeders to customarily dock breeds such as dobies/rotties/boxers. The way I read the amendment that Simon Coveney has stated that consideration will be given to working breeds for welfare purposes but not for cosmetic reasons, but that the procedure must be carried out by a vet, which is a good compromise. It means working dogs can still get docked, just by a vet and not by the breeder/anybody. It's not a big price to pay for compromise.

EPointer=Birdss

EPointer=Birdss

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But the loophole was going to be written in and it would have given the go ahead for breeders to customarily dock breeds such as dobies/rotties/boxers. The way I read the amendment that Simon Coveney has stated that consideration will be given to working breeds for welfare purposes but not for cosmetic reasons, but that the procedure must be carried out by a vet, which is a good compromise. It means working dogs can still get docked, just by a vet and not by the breeder/anybody. It's not a big price to pay for compromise.

If willing vets can be found but it is the best of bad situation if pushed through. How to regulate this will be next discussion. Without certification per pup this will be difficult.

EPointer=Birdss

hedgehog2 wrote: »

What a load of tripe,close any loophole to this practice and prosecute any eejit who continues to dock tails.

This is why you can't take you people seriously.
You form opinions & cannot listen to any reason or fact presented as you are blinded by such confidence that you are 100% right based on an armchair opinion.

borderlinemeath

In fairness I've seen the same amount of blood come from a nick on the ear, dogs wag the tail, it helps with the blood splatter. When mine cut her ear it was like a murder scene with blood sprays up the walls when she shook her head.

It will need regulation, best thing would for it to be certified on the microchip, which will be mandatory year after next.

EPointer=Birdss

borderlinemeath wrote: »

In fairness I've seen the same amount of blood come from a nick on the ear, dogs wag the tail, it helps with the blood splatter. When mine cut her ear it was like a murder scene with blood sprays up the walls when she shook her head.

It will need regulation, best thing would for it to be certified on the microchip, which will be mandatory year after next.

These are just images of cuts seen regularily now in the UK. Not the potential infections, irritation & treatment required as a result. Preventative measures at 3 days old can save a lot of grief for both dog & owners.
As for ears must we pick another fruit to compare

It wasn't me!

hedgehog2 wrote: »

What a load of tripe,close any loophole to this practice and prosecute any eejit who continues to dock tails.

MOD: You're in the hunting forum. Posters here are discussing this proposal in the context of its effects on hunting. In order to post here, you're required to accept that in this forum, the posters have experiences that cause them to disagree with you. Their views are entirely valid and I would ask that you not refer to them as "tripe" without a supporting argument or you'll be taking a holiday from this forum.

grassroot1

hedgehog2 wrote: »

How can people be so ignorant:eek:

Don't be so hard on yourself you did not know the reasons working dogs tails are docked. You have read my post and know you know your no longer ignorant. There is no need to thank me.

It wasn't me!

grassroot1 wrote: »

Don't be so hard on yourself you did not know the reasons working dogs tails are docked. You have read my post and know you know your no longer ignorant. There is no need to thank me.

Do not antagonise the other poster. I have already instructed them to be more civil. The same applies to you.