The Santa Delusion?

equivariant

Prompted by a link posted in the Sam Harris thread ....

OK fellow atheists/agnostics. If you have/will have kids, are you going to lie about Santa or not? My oldest is 3 so it's starting to be an issue for me. Up to now I have always thought that I would play along with the Santa myth, but Harris' article has got me doubting that.

Opinions/reasons?

Sarky

I don't see kids in my future. I have a nephew, and that's probably as close as I'd ever want to get to starting a family.

But yeah, I'd totally do the Santa thing. A kid's imagination needs fuel, and something like Santa works nicely to work that sense of wonder. If impossible magic doesn't happen during childhood, they'll never have any imagination when they grow up, and that stuff's important in every walk of life except the priesthood.

And when they're older he becomes an excellent lesson in why you also shouldn't believe in any of the various religions. Santa isn't real, and you got a few years of actual presents out of it. Jesus has even less going for him.

PyeContinental

When we grow up we don't believe in fairy stories any more, though of course many persist in believing in some. Let the kid believe in the unharmful fairy stories. Believing in Santa shouldn't be an issue until your kid is ten or thereabouts. It's useful to compare and contrast to religion when older. Being an atheist doesn't mean you have to ruin your kid's childhood.

equivariant

PyeContinental wrote: »

Being an atheist doesn't mean you have to ruin your kid's childhood.

Overreaction perhaps??? Not having Santa does not ruin your childhood. Harris makes a case that in fact the opposite could be true in certain cases.

My brother-in-law grew up without the Santa myth in a conventional Catholic family and he doesn't think his childhood has been ruined. In fact he thinks the whole Santa thing is a bit ridiculous. Just sayin'

I haven't decided which way to go yet, but it certainly won't ruin my childrens' childhoods if they don't have Santa.

Sarky wrote:

A kid's imagination needs fuel, and something like Santa works nicely to work that sense of wonder.

One thing I have learned in the past 3 years is that a kid's imagination needs very little fuel. And it get's more than enough without Santa myths. They certainly don't need to believe myths to fuel their imaginations. Books, occasional movies and everyday life are plenty to keep their imagination going.

PyeContinental

equivariant wrote: »

Overreaction perhaps???

No, and I'm afraid your brother in law's wrong about his own experience, especially if he didn't have at least identical triplet brothers, one who did believe in Santa, and one in a non-religious family who believed in Santa. Of course I'm being dead-pan for humour, but also for brevity, because that's more or less what I believe anyway and I still think the proposition is wrong. I'm also surprised to hear that Sam Harris is evidently wrong, unless you've misinterpreted what he was saying in some way.
Let's have a link to the video you're referring to?

gaynorvader

If I have children, I'm going to do my best to never tell them a direct lie. That doesn't mean they can't have Santa though.

pauldla

gaynorvader wrote: »

If I have children, I'm going to do my best to never tell them a direct lie. That doesn't mean they can't have Santa though.

You will tell whopping great polka dot lies with bells on them.

Because Duckie is still happily living with the other ducks on the lake.

smacl

I didn't have santa growing up, but we have done the whole santa thing for our kids. Personally, I'd rather not, but it is easier to go with the flow, and not doing it would have been a source of unnecessary stress. My kids lives are already fueled with fantasy from Moomintroll, the Hobbit, Doctor Who, Hunger Games and Futurama all the way to Alice in Wonderland and Stig of the dump. I suspect they've both known from a young age that Santa is just another fantasy, albeit one that is associated with extra presents at Christmas.

I found the Sam Harris article rather smug and altruistic. I try my best to raise my kids to be kind and have fun first and foremost. The occasional bit of doing what their told, or helping around the house, is also nice but less critical. Everyone lies sometimes. For those yet to have kids, wait until you have to pass critical comment on the first home cooked biscuit that you've just cracked a molar on. I love being a dad, but in our house pragmatism beats idealism every time.

equivariant

pauldla wrote: »

You will tell whopping great polka dot lies with bells on them.

Because Duckie is still happily living with the other ducks on the lake.

So so true

"Daddy, daddy, look at my painting (holds up piece of paper with a random scrawl on it)"

Option A: "That's not a painting, that's just a random scrawl - its rubbish. Of course I understand that it is important for your motor skills development to engage in such activities, so I encourage you to continue despite the fact that its rubbish"

Option B: "That's beautiful - you are the best painter ever."

Beruthiel

equivariant wrote: »

OK fellow atheists/agnostics. If you have/will have kids, are you going to lie about Santa or not? My oldest is 3 so it's starting to be an issue for me. Up to now I have always thought that I would play along with the Santa myth, but Harris' article has got me doubting that.

How can you doubt?

Think back to when you were a kid.
Were you not beside yourself with excitement in the weeks coming up to xmas?
Were you unable to sleep on xmas eve due to anticipation overload?
And when you woke up and the prezzies were there, were you not overwhelmed?
No way you can take that from your 3 year old!

You'll all get great memories for it.
I still fondly look back on my baileys induced drunken self attempting to put a teenage mutant ninja turtle helicopter together on xmas eve, all the while giggling to myself.

robindch

equivariant wrote: »

Option B: "That's beautiful - you are the best painter ever."

Or Option (c) - truthful -- "Hey, I really like that picture, especially that bit there... (points...)"

smacl

robindch wrote: »

Or Option (c) - truthful -- "Hey, I really like that picture, especially that bit there... (points...)"

Nah, I spend weekend mornings painting with my kids pretty regularly, and like anyone learning, there are some great efforts and there is some awful crap. I tend not to point out the crap, because the purpose of sitting down and painting is to have some fun and maybe develop some skills. The crap maybe gets a non-committal comment at worst. Same goes for sports, you need to encourage kids which sometimes involves exaggerating how well they're doing. If you don't, they'll stop doing it and cease improving.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Or Option (c) - truthful -- "Hey, I really like that picture, especially that bit there... (points...)"

or Option (d) -- That's not a painting darling, that is a drawing and it is excellent.

Sleepy

Being Santa is possibly one of the best things about being a father (especially if you can convince the other half to dress up in one of those Mrs Claus outfits they sell in certain shops )

I honestly couldn't imagine depriving a child of the joy of writing their letter to Santa, leaving out mince pies for him, being so determined to "catch him" that they try to stay awake (and end up falling asleep far faster than normal due to that) and the absolute best bit of it for a parent: the joy, excitement and amazement when Santa's brought exactly what they wanted while they slept. Hell, we even been known to go to the effort of taking a bite out of a carrot and placing it in the driveway for the kids to discover the next morning and give out about Rudolph's terrible table manners...

It's a bit of harmless fun that brings joy to children and there's nothing in it that attempts to impose a belief, lesson or morality on them beyond "be nice or people might not be nice to you".

smacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

or Option (d) -- That's not a painting darling, that is a drawing and it is excellent.

Option (e) -- I like what you've done with the cat, you don't see many green cats these days. Better wash him before mum gets up.

equivariant

Sleepy wrote: »

Being Santa is possibly one of the best things about being a father (especially if you can convince the other half to dress up in one of those Mrs Claus outfits they sell in certain shops )

I honestly couldn't imagine depriving a child of the joy of writing their letter to Santa, leaving out mince pies for him, being so determined to "catch him" that they try to stay awake (and end up falling asleep far faster than normal due to that) and the absolute best bit of it for a parent: the joy, excitement and amazement when Santa's brought exactly what they wanted while they slept. Hell, we even been known to go to the effort of taking a bite out of a carrot and placing it in the driveway for the kids to discover the next morning and give out about Rudolph's terrible table manners...

It's a bit of harmless fun that brings joy to children and there's nothing in it that attempts to impose a belief, lesson or morality on them beyond "be nice or people might not be nice to you".

I agree that it's a lot of fun for the parents. On the other hand, do we really need to tell them that its true to have the fun part. Kids enjoy Halloween without having to believe that vampires/ghosts/etc.. really exist. I know that some of them might believe in ghosts but we don't insist that they believe in that in order to participate in Halloween and we generally have no problem telling then that ghosts are not real if they ask.

Why couldn't Santa be done in the same way?

Bannasidhe

smacl wrote: »

Option (e) -- I like what you've done with the cat, you don't see many green cats these days. Better wash him before mum gets up.

Heh heh - yeah -
To sonofmine aged 10- 'gosh...that is a kaleidoscope of colours on the ceiling isn't it. How clever of you to stand on the top bunk. Here - this kind of paint is called emulsion. Get painting Michelangelo.'

To grand-daughter aged 6 ' No darling, I don't think Scooby is annoyed because you tried to paint him pink...I don't reckon the issue is the colour to be honest.'

Gbear

I'm surprised how many on here are falling on the Santa side of the debate.

I wouldn't, as a matter of principle.
As was pointed out, you don't need anything to fuel your kids' imaginations. I was one. I know from experience how you can have a gun that's actually a stick and you're pretending to be a pirate (a pirate with a machinegun no less!).

I abandoned the Santa thing pretty early on and I don't think I really missed out. It did give an interesting sense of perspective when there were some kids in my class saying things like "Santa was in my house last night! My dad told me so!".
I started preferring Christmas dinner to presents around 11 anyway.

smacl

@Gbear, problem comes when your kids starts telling the other kids that Santa doesn't exist and they start crying. None of 'em seem to care much about God, but take Santa away and there'll be tears. Hierarchy of importance of mystical beings that parents seem to think exist is roughly Santa > Tooth Fairy > Easter Bunny > Barney > Jesus.

Gbear

smacl wrote: »

@Gbear, problem comes when your kids starts telling the other kids that Santa doesn't exist and they start crying. None of 'em seem to care much about God, but take Santa away and there'll be tears. Hierarchy of importance of mystical beings that parents seem to think exist is roughly Santa > Tooth Fairy > Easter Bunny > Barney > Jesus.

First of all, not my ("my" in the hypothetical sense - I'm not actually a father) problem. You can't expect everyone to lie to their kids just because it'll expose your own lies.

And anyway, you don't really want your kid going around telling other kids god isn't real either.

I'd start by not mentioning it and saying that Christmas functions as it actually does - a time where you give each other presents, everyones nice to each other, there's lots of nice food, fires, christmassy music. All the nice things that make christmas magical to everyone.
It's not like you have to sit them down and explain it. It's merely what christmas is as they grow up.

You can then explain later on (as you would for Jesus and Pals) what other kids believe. Of course, there not being any Santa in their world doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't exist. You can let your child come to that conclusion themselves.

And if the child came to believe in Santa on their own I wouldn't outright tell them that he wasn't real. I just wouldn't do anything to encourage the belief in the first place.

eyescreamcone

But Santa Claus is not linked to religion.

If anything religion is linked to him at the moment.

smacl

Gbear wrote: »

First of all, not my ("my" in the hypothetical sense - I'm not actually a father) problem. You can't expect everyone to lie to their kids just because it'll expose your own lies.

Hypothetical children are somewhat easier to deal with than actual children in this regard.

Kidchameleon

Sarky wrote: »

they'll never have any imagination when they grow up, and that stuff's important in every walk of life except the priesthood.

Why wouldn't imagination be important in the priesthood? Are there no good priests out there?

Sarky wrote: »

And when they're older he becomes an excellent lesson in why you also shouldn't believe in any of the various religions. Santa isn't real, and you got a few years of actual presents out of it. Jesus has even less going for him.

Lol Jesus was a real guy. Accept it.

PopePalpatine

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Why wouldn't imagination be important in the priesthood? Are there no good priests out there?

I'm assuming Sarky's referring to the strict doctrines priests must adhere to, therefore imagination isn't important in that particular profession.

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Why wouldn't imagination be important in the priesthood? Are there no good priests out there?

Lol Jesus was a real guy. Accept it.

The Christian God in human form was actually real? You have evidence to support this claim?

Geomy

I heard of an intelligent,successful, well off Atheist telling a few local kids in a posh part of town that Santa wasn't true and only a fairy tail....

All 5 of them went home upset to their parents.
All 5 of the dad's got together and asked this successful, intelligent , wealthy guy, why did you tell the kid's Santa wasn't true...

He started the usual drivel that kid's shouldn't be told fairy tales etc and it's better for the kids to know the truth rather than being dishonest with them.
These kids were 4 and 6 year's of age ffs...

Well he got nice right hook and was panned out....

Was he in the right ?

Turtwig

Geomy wrote: »

I heard of an intelligent,successful, well off Atheist telling a few local kids in a posh part of town that Santa wasn't true and only a fairy tail....

All 5 of them went home upset to their parents.
All 5 of the dad's got together and asked this successful, intelligent , wealthy guy, why did you tell the kid's Santa wasn't true...

He started the usual drivel that kid's shouldn't be told fairy tales etc and it's better for the kids to know the truth rather than being dishonest with them.
These kids were 4 and 6 year's of age ffs...

Well he got nice right hook and was panned out....

Was he in the right ?

Who the assholes who thumped him? No they wrong. Mob justice is disgusting

Gbear

Geomy wrote: »

I heard of an intelligent,successful, well off Atheist telling a few local kids in a posh part of town that Santa wasn't true and only a fairy tail....

All 5 of them went home upset to their parents.
All 5 of the dad's got together and asked this successful, intelligent , wealthy guy, why did you tell the kid's Santa wasn't true...

He started the usual drivel that kid's shouldn't be told fairy tales etc and it's better for the kids to know the truth rather than being dishonest with them.
These kids were 4 and 6 year's of age ffs...

Well he got nice right hook and was panned out....

Was he in the right ?

There's a difference between not bringing your kid up to believe in Santa and actively going around gleefully telling small children that he's not real.

Mind you, punching someone over it is proper scumbaggery.

eyescreamcone

I'm with the guy who threw the right hook!!!

Turtwig

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I'm with the guy who threw the right hook!!!

If it was a five year old that told all the kids the was no santa and told the parents fairytales were wrong, you'd object to punching him? Why is it acceptable to punch an adult? People have stupid opinions regardless of age.

Geomy

Gbear wrote: »

There's a difference between not bringing your kid up to believe in Santa and actively going around gleefully telling small children that he's not real.

Mind you, punching someone over it is proper scumbaggery.

Oh well, its kinda weird approaching kids and telling them that Santa isn't true.
There's nothing worse than seeing you're kid upset and their Christmas ruined by some big mouth. ..
I heard he was goading one of the parents on with the fairytale drivel...

Do you approve of the weirdo self Appointed Santa belief terminator ?

Geomy

I would have told my kid that the only reason why he didn't believe in Santa was because that some people are naughty, and not nice so his parents had to more than likely buy yer man presents. ..

Keep it simple ;-)

Holsten

I don't really want kids but if I had them I would lie my ass off about Santa.

Why would you take away a bit of fun like Santa?! Madness!

smcgiff

By all means be super practical and don't let your kids have Santa.


Best of luck with the super practical nursing home they pick out for you.

PopePalpatine

Hmm...violence against someone who says a certain fictional character isn't real...does that sound familiar?

Dades

The only issue I have with the Santa thing is using him as a bogeyman figure that's always watching you.

It's perfectly possible to have fun with the whole Santa myth without playing up the whole creepy, omnipotent voyeur thing that God does.

Geomy

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Hmm...violence against someone who says a certain fictional character isn't real...does that sound familiar?

I know what you mean, but goading someone who s a bit of a head the ball isn't smart is it.

I wouldn't have got into a row about it but it's kind weird for am adult to be telling kid's that are not his own that santa isn't true. ....

MrPudding

I do the santa thing. As I may have said previously I FCUKING LOVE CHRISTMAS!

I have 4 kids and have done the Santa thing with all of them. My oldest is now 15. When she was 9 we had a conversation about god. She told me she was an atheist. I said, ok, why. She then went on and exaplained in very reasonable term why she did not believe. No evidence, just a story, blah blah blah. After she had finished I said, "ok, anything else...?" Shje thought for a minute, looked at me and said "aw, there's no santa, is there?"

She joins in with the whole santa thing for the younger ones. Plus, it is a great tool for getting the kids to behave. :P

MrP

Sulla Felix

Geomy wrote: »

I know what you mean, but goading someone who s a bit of a head the ball isn't smart is it.

I wouldn't have got into a row about it but it's kind weird for am adult to be telling kid's that are not his own that santa isn't true. ....

No it's not, but since no one here is advocating that and we have nothing but your strawman anecdote to say it's happening, I'm really not sure what it has to do with this thread.

Anyway, for the original question, I'll do the Santa thing, just as I'll do the "maybe your wardrobe might bring you to Narnia" and all the rest of the stuff that I believed when I was a kid. There's zero harm in it.

Geomy

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No it's not, but since no one here is advocating that and we have nothing but your strawman anecdote to say it's happening, I'm really not sure what it has to do with this thread.

Anyway, for the original question, I'll do the Santa thing, just as I'll do the "maybe your wardrobe might bring you to Narnia" and all the rest of the stuff that I believed when I was a kid. There's zero harm in it.

What's a strawman antidote ? is that some pagan straw tea or something ?
I made a right haymaker out that one lol

smacl

Geomy wrote: »

What's a strawman antidote ?

Britt Eckland? Wait, no, that's wickerman.

Geomy

smacl wrote: »

Britt Eckland? Wait, no, that's wickerman.

That's Nicholas Cage, no...

Aineoil

The Santa Question has always confused me.

Read "Conte de Noel" I think it's by Maupassant, but I am not sure.

It will make you think......

Not G.R

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Lol Jesus was a real guy. Accept it.

Ohhh Bannasidhe's gon' get you...

Bannasidhe

Aineoil wrote: »

The Santa Question has always confused me.

Read "Conte de Noel" I think it's by Maupassant, but I am not sure.

It will make you think......

I have avoided Maupassant since I read the one about the dog down the well. I'm still traumatised....
Shame really as I do like the way he writes.

Anyhoo - for those who haven't read Maupassant and in the interests of discussion any chance you could give an outline?

Kidchameleon

koth wrote: »

The Christian God in human form was actually real? You have evidence to support this claim?

Putting words in my mouth there.

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Putting words in my mouth there.

Not in the context of your response. Sarky said that as regards believing in religions that Jesus doesn't have much going for him. You said Jesus was a real guy.

Jesus according to his followers was God made flesh. This is the Jesus Sarky was alluding to and you replied saying he was a real guy.

Do you have proof for the claim?

Kidchameleon

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm assuming Sarky's referring to the strict doctrines priests must adhere to, therefore imagination isn't important in that particular profession.

Imagination is important in every profession. The priesthood is no different. Take a priest who is working in a mission in some third world country, would it not take imagination to solves problems he encounters there? Suppose there is a tragedy in his parish, would it not take some imagination to bring some peace to his parishioners? Suppose there is a disaster somewhere in the world, would it not take some imagination to inspire his parish to donate to the cause?

Kidchameleon

koth wrote: »

Not in the context of your response. Sarky said that as regards believing in religions that Jesus doesn't have much going for him. You said Jesus was a real guy.

Jesus according to his followers was God made flesh. This is the Jesus Sarky was alluding to and you replied saying he was a real guy.

I have re-read and I see what you mean.

koth wrote: »

Do you have proof for the claim?

Its well established that Jesus existed, I'm not going over that again here.

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I have re-read and I see what you mean.

Cool beans

Its well established that Jesus existed, I'm not going over that again here.

A man named Jesus may have existed, but the Jesus I was querying almost certainly didn't.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

There's a difference between not bringing your kid up to believe in Santa and actively going around gleefully telling small children that he's not real.

Mind you, punching someone over it is proper scumbaggery.

A hypothetical punching is somewhat easier to deal with than an actual punching in this regard.