School start time

Newstarter1

Hi
First post, so I hope I'm in the right place. My child started school in September, has settled well and is very happy - thankfully. I, on the other hand have a number of concerns which are growing as the weeks go by. I have a parent/teacher meeting next week so I hope someone can provide me with some guidance so I address things correctly.

My concerns are as follows:
School starts at 9:20 and Juniors are not allowed out in the yard before school starts and must remain in their class, however, there is no adult supervision - not even someone 'popping' their head in to check on the class. With 21 children in the room, that seems a little risky, health and safety wise. Is the school meant to have someone checking on them before class starts?

My child sometimes asks me to walk them into class and remain there for a few minutes, while they 'settle in'. Quite regularly - at least 3 times a week I have not left the room until 9:30, and I haven't bumped into the teacher and the two times I have, it was 9:35 and 9:40.

In the last couple of weeks specifically the bell to get the children in from the playground to start school, hasn't been rung before 9:25.

I am getting increasingly frustrated by the tardy start times. I realise my child is only in Junior Infants, but at the moment they are losing about an hour class time if not more each week - it all adds up.

I plan to address this with the teacher, but my question now is where do I stand addressing these issues aside from a concerned parent? Is the school obliged to start on time, as per what's written in the prospectus and/or some regulations for example? I don't want to go in there and mention this as such, but I would like to know just in case of the response I get. What about the health and safety aspect of not checking on the children from drop off time to school starts?
Thanks!

byhookorbycrook

Schools are not obliged to provide supervision before or after school. The time lost is often due to a parent who "just wants a quick word" or a phonecall from the HSE, re-uniting children with lost property etc. etc. etc.
The first twenty minutes of school is not actually teaching time, it is assembly time, but most schools tend to use it to check homework, let the smaller children have some free play, check if any child has a note etc. So, in fact, your child is not, under DES rules losing teaching time at all in the mornings.

Newstarter1

Goodness how things have changed since I went to primary school - in those ice age days if school started at 9, the teacher was in the room at 9 - end of, but there you go. It would be very unfortunate&unheard of that a teacher was diverted from getting to class on time every morning

Thanks for your reply.

byhookorbycrook

Yes, things have certainly changed, my parents never even walked me to school, much less hung around to talk to teachers. Schools are very different places now!

muckisluck

I think the original poster is absolutely right. While schools are not obliged to provide before and after school supervision assembly time is not considered before school. No class of Junior Infants should be in a room on their own at any time with no supervison. It is definitely something to be brought up but perhaps with the school management rather than an individual teacher who is probably just following the practices of others in the school. As a parent I would not leave my child in a school where practices are so lax that teachers don't turn up in the classroom on time regardless of who interrupts. Professionals should be able to divert those who try to distract them during their professional time.

Moonbeam

If the child is there early then is that not more the parents fault then the kids fault?
Our school starts at 8:50 meaning the teachers are there and all the línte get called,the kids are not allowed in prior to this.
Talk to the other parents and parents association.

byhookorbycrook

Do you turn up at the doctor before the surgery opens and expect someone to see you? If schools open ten minutes early, to oblige parents, then perhaps some parents should help out then?

muckisluck

My understanding from the original poster is that the child is not early but actually there during assembly time when children should be supervised. The school has allowed the infants into the classroom so they should be supervised.The op also pointed out that the teacher was regularly not in the class even after the bell rang. Let's not try to defend the indefensible.

ShamoBuc

muckisluck wrote: »

My understanding from the original poster is that the child is not early but actually there during assembly time when children should be supervised. The school has allowed the infants into the classroom so they should be supervised.The op also pointed out that the teacher was regularly not in the class even after the bell rang. Let's not try to defend the indefensible.

Lets not try to 'jump to conclusions without knowing the facts' either.

byhookorbycrook

A school is accommodating parents by allowing infants in before opening time. Perhaps ,Muckisluck, you think the infants should go to the yard instead? The OP could actually turn up at opening time if s/he is that concerned.

Big Bag of Chips

Our school starts at 9. Kids aren't allowed into school until the bell rings at 9, including infants. It's up to parents if they want to wait around watching until the kids go in. But sometimes the kids head in the gate and disappear around the back to play with their friends, anyway!

Why are the infants not allowed in the yard? Surely they are allowed in the yard at break times so why not for a few minutes before school? I'd prefer for them to be out in the yard where there are plenty kids and loads going on.

Or - if parents are allowed into the classroom with the kids until the teacher arrives, then that's the same as parents keeping an eye on them in the yard until the go in.

byhookorbycrook

Our infants have their own yard and the older children play in the other yard. Saves a big hefty guy from 6th running into a smallie

Big Bag of Chips

We've had incidents of hefty bigger lads running into the smallies (or maybe that was smallies running into hefty big lads!) but usually no serious or long lasting injuries.

And the biccies that you get in the office after a fall tend to soften the blow a bit

Newstarter1

Thanks for all the replies and comments. Just to clarify:

Until Friday, I didn't know such a thing as 'Assembly time' existed. In my schooldays an assembly involved bringing either the whole school or the year together for a discussion regarding something or other, but at least one teacher was always present. I have now been led to believe that assembly time is just more playtime out in the yard (for all years except Juniors& more unsupervised time for Juniors). I was informed by the Principal who I approached on Friday that school start time is 9:20 for 9:30. This was the first I'd heard of it. She never mentioned it when we went to view the school, nor is it in the school prospectus. She also told me that things were probably running a little late because of the p/t meetings going on at the mo, and when I asked her if that meant that come Monday, I'd start hearing the bell ring at 9:20, she told me 'well, that's what we aim for'

I have no idea what time the school is open to students as I don't bring my child before 9:15, and as the bell ringing has got progressively later particularly in the last two weeks, I've been arriving at 9:20. Now as it seems nothing starts before 9:30 and no teachers are in class before then, I shall be turning up even later.

As regards the Juniors not being allowed out in the yard, I believe it's teacher preference. I don't object to this. However, by the same token, as there seems to only be one TA out supervising the yard before class starts, they need to provide supervision for the class not allowed out. I broached this with the teacher and she tried to tell me that this particular TA checks in on the class, but when I informed her I had waited in the class on many an occasion for up to 15mins and no one had popped a head in, as the woman couldn't be in two places at the one time, she told me that they would 'bear in mind my concerns about lack of supervision'

Furthermore, since day 1 both the Principal and teacher have encouraged parents to allow children to walk in unaccompanied to develop their sense of independence, so all parents may not be aware of how much time elapses between dropping their child and class starting - they are only 4&5 and unable to read the time.

I have now spoken with lots of friends who are amazed at this lax behaviour regarding start times. Everyone else's schools seem to consider assembly time as class time, WITH a teacher present.

beauf

Our school infants are not allowed to be unaccompanied in the yard, there to be someone with them. Then a teacher collects them and brings them in. Infants are separated in the yard from older kids.

If there's no supervision what's to stop a child wandering out of the school completely.

killbillvol2

As a matter of interest, what time does the school finish?

For example, my school opens at 8.50 and finishes at 2.30. Infants finish at 1.30.

The 20 minutes assembly time is a time when the teacher is in the room in any school I've ever heard of. Obviously there are times when a teacher is meeting a parent or held up for some reason but that's after he/she has settled the class and arranged alternative supervision.

Allowing children access to the classroom unsupervised would be irresponsible.

Newstarter1

School finishes at 2pm for Juniors and Seniors. 3pm for the rest of the years.

Bananatop

I don't think it's right that the teacher is late by 15/20 mins every day. Newstarter, you are correct to think that those kids are losing out by a lot every week. If it is a thing that the teacher is held back by an unexpected meeting, that's fair enough, but to be held back every single day? Is the teacher the vice principal by any chance?
Supervision prior to the bell going however isn't the responsibility of the staff at the school. It's a nice grey area which the DES won't touch with a bargepole until something serious happens, so some schools err on the side of caution and provide limited supervision even though officially the children are not their responsibility until school starts. The reason limited supervision is offered is to stop any parents using school as an unofficial babysitter from eight in the morning while teachers are trying to set up for the day.

beauf

They might not want responsibility . But letting the kids in the classroom would seem to to make them, and their insurance liable if anything goes wrong on site.

ShamoBuc

If they finish at 2 they start at 9.20 and from that time on the teacher should be there. Obviously there are many reasons why a teacher could be delayed but certainly not on a regular basis.
In our school, the gate opens 10 mins before the start of the school day. Our infants come into their yard - by themselves and line up, bell goes and their teacher comes out to them and walks them to their room, if it's raining they go straight to their room and are supervised by designated teachers ( in lieu of their yard supervision.)
Being allowed into the classroom necessitates supervision in some form.

byhookorbycrook

beauf wrote: »

They might not want responsibility . But letting the kids in the classroom would seem to to make them, and their insurance liable if anything goes wrong on site.

Untrue.

Gonzp

Technically children should not be the responsibility of a teacher until the bell goes... If it's raining before that, children are still the responsibility of their parents, however because parents drop children off earlier than start time, schools let children into their rooms to keep them dry.. This is good will from schools as insurance companies etc do not want it happening.

All this good will from schools is slowly being eroded by parents who complain about the simplest of things...Teachers are acting in loco parentis when children are in school.... Sometimes they may not be in the same room as the children for whatever reason that may be, just like when a child is at home and outside playing or whatever the case may be.. Does it make a parent negliable because they are not physically in the same room as the child all the time... No...

Schools are very busy places, with lots going on and alot of parents call in to teachers at crazy times looking to speak etc...

beauf

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Untrue.

They don't want the responsibility is untrue?

beauf

Gonzp wrote: »

T.....Teachers are acting in loco parentis when children are in school.... Sometimes they may not be in the same room as the children for whatever reason that may be, just like when a child is at home and outside playing or whatever the case may be.. Does it make a parent negliable because they are not physically in the same room as the child all the time... ....

How is being at home with a couple of kids anything remotely like a class room with 30 kids, in it.

Or being at home where you control access in and out of the house, the same with a school with open doors and hundreds of kids and people wandering in and out of it.

Gonzp

beauf wrote: »

How is being at home with a couple of kids anything remotely like a class room with 30 kids, in it.

Or being at home where you control access in and out of the house, the same with a school with open doors and hundreds of kids and people wandering in and out of it.

It isn't the same at all, but still one person is in charge of this group of 30 children, and things will happen no matter how vigilant you are or how careful you are... Parents are expecting more and more of this one person and are complaining more and more.Where children are concerned, things will happen regardless.... My neice got hit with a stone in school a few weeks ago and was left with a scar and a couple of people said to her that she could sue... Seriously, what is wrong with people these days... Where children are concerned, accidents will always happen, no matter how vigilant you are...

As I said, you cannot be there at all times to prevent things happening... it is not possible, whether in a home environment or school environment...Thats just it... Think about that the next time you have a childs birthday party and your inside preparing the drinks or something and the kids are oustide in the garden playing games......

beauf

Gonzp wrote: »

Technically children should not be the responsibility of a teacher until the bell goes...

If the school is encouraging parents to leave the kids into the school on their own, does that still apply? Also the OP says they are unattended after the bell.

Our school has a clear policy on who is responsibility and when. Its stated on their website and on every newsletter.

beauf

Gonzp wrote: »

It isn't the same at all, but still one person is in charge of this group of 30 children,......

Isn't that the point. No one is in charge. For a considerable time.

Newstarter1

Thanks for the replies. I'm not quite sure of the point you are making Gonzp when comparing the class of 4/5 yr olds, to a situation at home - numbers, space and influencing factors couldn't be more different.

Yes, accidents happen no matter where we are, but you can also take logical measures to reduce these chances, and having no adult supervision in a class of 4/5 year olds until the teacher turns up around 9:30ish, when we're advised that school starts at 9:20, seems a little gung ho to me.

Yes, I accept there is a claim culture these days, but I think some of the claim culture exists because sometimes people only take notice and listen when it hits their pocket. I can say quite honestly, if I found my child had had an accident while left in an unsupervised situation which should not have happened in school during school time, I would raise merry hell - they'd probably prefer me to sue .

Gonzp

beauf wrote: »

Isn't that the point. No one is in charge. For a considerable time.

I honestly cannot see this happening on a regular basis in any school, if it is then yes, there is something wrong with that... I would honestly think if it was a real issue, there would be more than one person complaining about it...

Anyway, unless we know the whole situation, its hard to comment...

The only point I want to make is that sometimes teachers will get held up by things on the way to class and generally this is parents who "want a quick word"...or a child that has lost a jumper needing to go to the lost or found or whatever the case maybe... I doubt very much this teacher is sitting somewhere ignoring the call of the bell...

Newstarter1

Well, you'd hope not, but it's because our paths haven't crossed on the corridor as I've left at 9:30 on plenty of occasions, that I do have a huge concern.
I broached it with her at the p/t meeting and she told me that class does start at 9:30.....just not religiously..... So between the Principal telling me they 'aim' for a 9:30 start and the teacher telling me they don't start at that time religiously, I feel like a 9:30 start would happen more by accident than design.

beauf

Maybe talk to other parents, even the parents committee to get their opinion on it. maybe other parents aren't aware how long they are unsupervised for.

beauf

If it was a rare occurrence I don't think anyone would have an issue.

But its sounds likes its a habit that's developed.

If it were me I'd get clarification from the principle on responsibilities maybe get it on the newsletter.

paleo muinteoir

As a Junior Infant teacher, I find it hard to believe that JIs are left without supervision at ANY time.
Our school day is 8.50 - 2.30 (8.50 - 1.30 for Infants).

In the morning the school hall is opened at 8.35 and all children are let in where they sit in their class líne. The hall is supervised by 2 teachers and 2 SNAs (arranged by rota). No child goes to a classroom in this time.

At 8.50 (on the dot) each teacher collects their class from the hall and takes them to the classroom. The assembly time is technically then from 8.50 - 9.10. Our infants have free play at this time and latecomers are few and far between.

At NO time ever are infants left unsupervised in a classroom - in fact now that I think of it, no children in our school ever are.

Newstarter1

That's definitely not what my child is experiencing. As I say, I don't know what time the school opens for children, however, all years with the exception of Juniors are allowed to play out in the yard until the bell goes. School time officially starts at 9:20, but they aim to start class at 9:30 (and I quote). When the bell goes there is a mass influx of children in the door - no class lines, just a free for all. The Juniors are not supervised during assembly time, nor are they supervised when they are unable to go out at lunchtime due to bad weather. A DVD is put on, and they are told not to leave their seats. If there is a problem with the DVD (as has happened), they are told to ask a 6th class child (they are in the room next door) for assistance.

I'm getting the distinct impression that something is seriously amiss here...

byhookorbycrook

On a wet day , the arrangement in most schools is that older children go to younger classes but there are teachers on duty. It is not possible to have a teacher in each room, teachers are ,believe or not, entitled to a break, under employment rules.
If you are so dissatisfied with the school, perhaps you need to think about changing schools?
The school cannot win, you are complaining that the infants are in before bell time and then complaining that the others are coming in when the bell goes.

byhookorbycrook

beauf wrote: »

They don't want the responsibility is untrue?

Untrue that the school is not insured.

Newstarter1

I really don't think there is any need for sarcasm. I was merely stating the arrangement that is currently in place. When you think of it, if assembly time is usually supervised in most schools, why would lunch break be any different? Supervision is provided if they are in the yard, so why isn't it provided on some level when it's raining and all the children are indoors? Why can't the playground supervisor pop their head into each class instead?

Furthermore I came on here looking for information. I believe I expressed concern over the arrangements currently in place and asked both for advice and what the school's obligations were. I didn't come on complaining, and even if I did, I would be more than entitled to. Just to clarify, I didn't complain that the juniors were not allowed out before class, I stated that I didn't object to this, but I did have concerns about the lack of supervision provided as they are not allowed out.

I am loathe to move my child, he has settled down, he is happy. He can't tell the time so is unaware of the school's failings in this regard, and isn't aware that being left unattended during school time is not acceptable. I don't consider that a small decision to make, so I wouldn't consider it so flippantly as its suggested. Thanks for your input though.

beauf

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Untrue that the school is not insured.

Not insured when?

beauf

None of this makes sense unless all or most of the teachers go on break at the same time. If all the teachers aren't on break then they wouldn't need to get an older kid next door they could get the teacher next door. Indeed, one teacher could check between two classes.

Newstarter1

I agree. I don't understand why those scheduled to supervise the playground during lunchtime when it's dry cannot pop their head(s) into each class if the children aren't allowed out because of bad weather?

paleo muinteoir

In our school, during lunch on wet days, those who were on supervision duty remain so, only inside. Between teachers and SNAs there is an adult for every two rooms and they go between the two, with 6th class children also helping in the infant rooms. There is no excuse for no supervision.

ShamoBuc

paleo muinteoir wrote: »

In our school, during lunch on wet days, those who were on supervision duty remain so, only inside. Between teachers and SNAs there is an adult for every two rooms and they go between the two, with 6th class children also helping in the infant rooms. There is no excuse for no supervision.

This would be standard in our school as well ( 1 teacher looking into 3 rooms - and I would hope something similar in all schools.

killbillvol2

Newstarter1 wrote: »

I'm getting the distinct impression that something is seriously amiss here...

I agree. I have no reason to doubt your bona fides but I'm astonished, as a teacher, that this could be going on as you describe.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Untrue that the school is not insured.

beauf didn't suggest that the school wasn't insured. He/she said that the school/insurance company would be liable in the event of an accident in an unsupervised classroom. He/she is 100% correct in that. If you think otherwise you're in cuckooland.

Newstarter1

I'm feeling quite unnerved myself, having had the things I've been concerned about justified. I had spoken with another parent about this prior to the p/t meetings, and her response was that 'they' (the Principal presumably, as they tend to set the tone for the school) are always good regarding the time classes start at the start of a new year, but after a few weeks, things start becoming a bit relaxed, and then they get conscientious about it again towards the end of the school year'. She has an older child in the school, as well as a child in juniors, so seemed well versed on the subject.

As regards the lunchtime supervision, I will enquire about this with the powers that be and get clarification, as I will be addressing the assembly time issue with them also.

Thanks!

Conelan

Dear Newstarter,
What's happening in your child's school sounds completely off the wall. The official school day is 5hrs 40 mins, this can be shortened by 1 hour for infant classes. In other words if your child finishes at 2 their day should start at 9.20 with the teacher in the classroom from there. As regards what is happening before that time I refer to the Allianz guidelines to schools=
When does the school accept responsibility to supervise?

The school and teachers have a duty to supervise at all times when pupils are in their charge. If the school allows access to the school before official opening hours then the duty to supervise applies

Perhaps you might also suggest Parents Council would fundraise for an electric bell!!

Newstarter1

Thanks Conelan. They actually rang the bell at 9:20 this morning (hooray!!), and the teacher arrived to class just as I was leaving at 9:30 (hooray again)

Alas, there still wasn't any sign of adult supervision (except me) from 9:20-9:30...

byhookorbycrook

Conelan wrote: »

Dear Newstarter,
When does the school accept responsibility to supervise?

The school and teachers have a duty to supervise at all times when pupils are in their charge. If the school allows access to the school before official opening hours then the duty to supervise applies

Perhaps you might also suggest Parents Council would fundraise for an electric bell!!

Guidelines, not rules. Unlikely to stand up in court.

Kathnora

Byhookorbycrook you are being a bit over defensive in my opinion and I'm coming from a teacher's perspective (one with 30+ years under my belt). The op was delighted today that the bell rang at 9.20 and the children were supervised from 9.30 when in fact they should be in their rooms at 9.20 and fully supervised in order to get their 5hrs and 40 mins done before dismissal at 3p.m. This school is quite lax and doesn't even appear to have an electronic bell (mine has one for the last 15 yrs or so). There is NO excuse to be made and nobody on our staff would get away with such tardiness. The 15 min assembly time is for correcting homework, collecting money, reading parents' notes etc. In fact we have DEAR time and Free Writing during this time so there is real work being done.

Newstarter1

Well, day 2 and the bell was rung at 9:20 again. The TA who supervises in the yard then arrived into the classroom just before 9:30 - first time that has happened since they started in August (baby steps, but it does feel like a tiny bit of progress is being made....), so I took my leave, passing the staff room with all the teachers still sitting inside there, as is the norm.

pooch90

Firstly, there is no excusing the tardiness and lack of supervision and I won't attempt to.

However, as a teacher, if you were in my classroom every morning, I wouldn't be long about telling you to get out.
Do any other parents do this? Not a hope in hell I'd allow it.
How is the child to settle when mammy is always there?
The first 2 weeks in JI maybe, not approaching December.

Also, Ireland doesn't have TAs. They're called SNAs.

Just as a note-Kathnora I've taught in many rural schools where a handbell is still the norm.
Much nicer in my opinion, especially if the ASD or similar kids get a turn to ring it. I hate our electric bell!

beauf

pooch90 wrote: »

...However, as a teacher, if you were in my classroom every morning, I wouldn't be long about telling you to get out....

Bit hard to do that from the staff room.

The OP leaves when the teacher arrives. In our school parents have stay with the infants in the yard until a teacher takes them in. Which is pretty much the same thing. Once the infants are supervised the parents leave.