Failure to disclose top up payments

Boombastic

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has confirmed that trawl of allowances in the public sector two years ago failed to disclose the so-called top-up payments to senior health sector employees.
..... National Maternity Hospital Dr Rhona Mahony said she had been vilified about a €45,000 addition to her salary of €236,000 - adding that this had been utterly unwarranted.......
eparately, the PAC heard today that the Director of the National Gallery Sean Rainbird had been awarded an additional €40,000 on top of his salary of just under €100,000 to visit his family in London 40 times a year during the five-year duration of his contract. ...

http://m.rte.ie/news/touch/2013/1121/488201-health-top-up-payments/


personally I think the last one is the best, 40 times a year to London @ 1000 eiro/trip

We paid people to thrawl through these, yet these top ups were not included. who exactly trawled through them? How much were they paid?

msg11

It's mad money. 200,000 a year for managing a hospital. I mean the Minister who is running the show is getting that. I also find it bizzare, how the Minister for finance is paid less than a bank CEO who manages one bank.

I dunno but where I work, the guy at the top is paid the most and it filters down.

There's managers managing mangers who are managing mangers.

Whats really getting on my tits at the moment are these shareholders, they don't have a clue. They pump money into a company and if they don't see returns they are up in arms and are demanding cuts to payroll/staff, then cue a few months later there up in arms again wondering why the profits are falling or why the company is in a state.

I mean if shareholders are going to demand cuts to this and that within a company surely then they don't need top management.

Same gose for this crack, this is why the HSE is in a state. If they are getting 'top ups' (love that term) of 50K then they don't need to be a 200K job as they should be able to find the time to seek other payments. The work should justify the pay of 200K and when you finish your working day, you say to yourself thank god that days over not I better go look for another way of topping my pay up another 50K.

Ten of Swords

msg11 wrote: »

Whats really getting on my tits at the moment are these shareholders, they don't have a clue. They pump money into a company and if they don't see returns they are up in arms and are demanding cuts to payroll/staff, then cue a few months later there up in arms again wondering why the profits are falling or why the company is in a state.

That's probably a separate issue to the op's point but for what it's worth if I invest money in a company you're damn right I expect a return on it, not a loss. Cutting payroll is usually not the answer but it depends on the company hierarchy and the industry standards.

Fr_Dougal

msg11 wrote: »

It's mad money. 200,000 a year for managing a hospital. I mean the Minister who is running the show is getting that. I also find it bizzare, how the Minister for finance is paid less than a bank CEO who manages one bank.

I dunno but where I work, the guy at the top is paid the most and it filters down.

So you've a problem with the CEO of a bank being paid more than the Minister for Finance? Would you have a problem with a secondary school teacher from Limerick being paid more than the CEO of a bank?

Hootanany

But what if the extra money went to the former in donations? Big if thou:cool:

General General

Boombastic wrote: »

National Maternity Hospital Dr Rhona Mahony said she had been vilified about a €45,000 addition to her salary of €236,000 - adding that this had been utterly unwarranted...

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Stainless_Steel

In general, you get what you pay for when it comes to CEOs.

Id pay the 200k to get a top person....they'll just work in the private sector otherwise where they don't have to deal with unions.

wendell borton

Its must be disgusting for people with sick friends and family to think all the money they paid for parking is used for a single individuals "top up" up rather than to improve hospital services. Out in the real world this practice would be fraud.

smeedyova

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dr-rhona-mahony-i-have-been-personally-vilified-over-the-last-few-days-this-has-been-utterly-unwarranted-29773679.html

“As a Consultant Obstetrician my contract allows me to provide clinical care to private patients, as is the case with all Consultants in the Irish health service who have the same Consultant contract as myself. The provision of private patient care is fundamental to the health service as currently structured.

So...does she see these private patients in rooms provided by the taxpayers, i.e., in the hospital? Does she use facilities and equipment provided by taxpayers for her private business or does she rent a room elsewhere? Has she bought all of her own equipment or does she use state equipment? Is it possible that she is using state rooms and facilities for her private business? Is her private business not a conflict of interest with her other patients? Does she clog up state facilities with her private patients if she is not renting a space elsewhere and using equipment that she has bought herself? Does anybody know?

SEPT 23 1989

and these are the same people that will stand behind the parents of sick kids who plead for more money for the hospitals

twisted kip of a country:mad:

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dr-rhona-mahony-i-have-been-personally-vilified-over-the-last-few-days-this-has-been-utterly-unwarranted-29773679.html



So...does she see these private patients in rooms provided by the taxpayers, i.e., in the hospital? Does she use facilities and equipment provided by taxpayers for her private business or does she rent a room elsewhere? Has she bought all of her own equipment or does she use state equipment? Is it possible that she is using state rooms and facilities for her private business? Is her private business not a conflict of interest with her other patients? Does she clog up state facilities with her private patients if she is not renting a space elsewhere and using equipment that she has bought herself? Does anybody know?

She sees them in accordance with the terms of her consultant contract.
As they are private patients they are charged for the use of the facilities, despite having, like everyone else, already paid through their taxes.

westcoast66

What bloody annoys me in this country is that there is constant complaints about not enough nurses etc. Knock 50K off this wans salary and employ an extra nurse. Same for anyone else over 100K in the hospitals. We'd have much better care for the same cost.

westcoast66

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

She sees them in accordance with the terms of her consultant contract.
As they are private patients they are charged for the use of the facilities, despite having, like everyone else, already paid through their taxes.

I can't think of many other industries that allow an employee run their own private business alongside their day job, and in the same premises.

golfball37

When the minister in charge of the department has private investment in private health care projects and gets away with it why shouldn't others get away with a private top up?

the hypocrisy around this is laughable tbh.

amen

While the issue of top ups is shocking I think we are all missing the bigger picture. Late last week several CEOs of hospitals wrote a public letter to the Minister of Health stating that with all of the cutbacks (100's millions) that they would not be able to run the hospital without reducing the number of patients seen and/or impacting patient care.

A few days later the HSE announces the results of this investigation.

A clear case of an attempt to distract people from the real issue in the Health Service.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

westcoast66 wrote: »

What bloody annoys me in this country is that there is constant complaints about not enough nurses etc. Knock 50K off this wans salary and employ an extra nurse. Same for anyone else over 100K in the hospitals. We'd have much better care for the same cost.

Cut the wages of top consultants and CEOs to €100,000 and watch the exodus. It is nauseating to see the begrudgery regarding the salaries of high skilled and educated people, what do you expect them to do, work for free?

smeedyova

Many people are very highly educated and don't earn anything like this. Why on earth does anybody think that her skills are worth that much money? People with PhDs have far more education than her and they start off on 40k and most never earn much more than that.

ScumLord

msg11 wrote: »

It's mad money. 200,000 a year for managing a hospital.

I wouldn't be against the wage if he was good at his job. Our hospitals are a mess though, surely that kind of a wage would be an incentive to someone better?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

Many people are very highly educated and don't earn anything like this. Why on earth does anybody think that her skills are worth that much money? People with PhDs have far more education than her and they start off on 40k and most never earn much more than that.

She is better qualified by far than just a PHd, if you did some research on her credentials you would know that.

suicide_circus

i'm opposed to these kind of wages in the public service for the likes of politicians, members of An Bord Pisstake, the stars of RTE and various Quangos but medical professionals who have reached the top of their game, i'm fine with tbh

smeedyova

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

She is better qualified by far than just a PHd, if you did some research on her credentials you would know that.

What are they? Unless she has a PhD she cannot be more qualified than somebody with a PhD as that is the highest qualification one can achieve. Even if she has a PhD she does not deserve up to six times more money than other PhDs.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

What are they? Unless she has a PhD she cannot be more qualified than somebody with a PhD as that is the highest qualification one can achieve. Even if she has a PhD she does not deserve up to six times more money than other PhDs.

Bad taste of sour grapes from that post.:rolleyes:

Hootanany

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Bad taste of sour grapes from that post.:rolleyes:

No just talking sense 200k and a private income that's just pure greed.

smeedyova

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Bad taste of sour grapes from that post.:rolleyes:

Not sour grapes, rage, at the fact that taxpayers are being screwed left, right and centre in this country. We, the taxpayers, could easily get somebody in to do her job at half the price, and that would still be expensive.

Letting any medic use taxpayer facilities to run a private business to screw even more money out of sick people who have already paid for the facilities is a nutty as you can get.

smeedyova

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Bad taste of sour grapes from that post.:rolleyes:

Still waiting to read about her amazing qualifications that make her "far better qualified than any PhD", Humbug!

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Hootanany wrote: »

No just talking sense 200k and a private income that's just pure greed.

No, that's being extremely well qualified in your field, and having spent years getting that qualified.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

Still waiting to read about her amazing qualifications that make her "far better qualified than any PhD", Humbug!

What happened, you did an obscure Phd and now find it is not something that employers want?
This lady qualified as a doctor, and then as a surgeon, in that time alone she could have completed 3 if not more Phds!
She is worth every cent that she gets and could probably earn a lot more if she moved abroad.

smeedyova

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

No, that's being extremely well qualified in your field, and having spent years getting that qualified.

Please list her qualifications. I can tell you that she earns more than twice the maximum that a university professor earns (and they earn far more than their colleagues who have PhDs and are therefore more qualified than medics). University professors have far more qualifications than medics, i.e,. PhD = level 10 of studies (at least ten years of university), medical degree = level 8 (five years of study).

JOSman

Guys,

Can somebody explain to me, if this top up is for private work, where has that money gone? Surely, they would have been paid for this private work. Why would "from other sources" be needed if it was for private paid work.

Me thinks we are being lied to. Good auld smoke screen.

Femme_Fatale

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

and these are the same people that will stand behind the parents of sick kids who plead for more money for the hospitals

twisted kip of a country:mad:

Normally skim over your obsessive public sector bashing, but gotta heartily agree here - it's nauseating that hospitals require charity donations.

Hootanany

Anyone know who her relations are?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Hootanany wrote: »

Anyone know who her relations are?

Born on the Northside, Raheny to be exact, to an average family, youngest of three. Its all online if you look it up, sorry you're cheap inference was?:rolleyes:

Boombastic

nobody seems to mind the lad in the gallery getting a 40,000 top up to go to London 40 times a year.As for the other overpaid one, the last time I was in that hospital, it was a mess, so regardless if she has 7 phds, she not capable of performing her duties...I also like the way it clarifies she got no money from charities??
public and private need to be separated totally, and the gallery mngt need their head examined, is the overpaid fatcat able to carry out brain scans?

Boombastic

looks like they are closing rank on this one
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hospital-board-asks-councillor-to-resign-1.1604830

Hospital board asks councillor to resign

A member of the board of the National Maternity Hospital has been formally asked to resign after being accused of making “ill-informed public commentary” regarding top-up payments to senior health sector executives.

Chattastrophe!

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't be against the wage if he was good at his job. Our hospitals are a mess though, surely that kind of a wage would be an incentive to someone better?

Firstly, she's a woman.

Secondly, I'm attending that particular hospital (as a public patient) at the moment, and it is about the most efficient and well-organised hospital you could imagine. I have no problem with her salary - it's a very important position she's in, cut the salary and you won't get a replacement anywhere near her calibre.

Xeyn

smeedyova wrote: »

Please list her qualifications. I can tell you that she earns more than twice the maximum that a university professor earns (and they earn far more than their colleagues who have PhDs and are therefore more qualified than medics). University professors have far more qualifications than medics, i.e,. PhD = level 10 of studies (at least ten years of university), medical degree = level 8 (five years of study).

I suggest you actually find out what it takes to qualify as a consultant. You'll find it exceeds 10 years by some distance- much closer to between 15 and 20 years. A phd professor is not a resource that is in particularly high demand compared to consultants.
I don't necessarily agree with the wage structure of the old consultant contracts or private allowances but I agree with the sentiment that they need a good salary to keep them in the country. Doctors are a very mobile group and if the begrudgery shown by some on this forum becomes commonplace then you might find yourself with an even worse health system.

stoneill

Consultants should consult, Managers should manage.

You would expect a 200k performance from somebody who is getting paid 200K (with or without top-ups)
With the state of the HSE and the state of the hospitals, these people are performing far below their pay grade and as such should be sacked.
There are plenty of unemployed experienced managers looking for work who would jump at the chance, for half the price and do twice as much.

Boombastic

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Firstly, she's a woman.

Secondly, I'm attending that particular hospital (as a public patient) at the moment, and it is about the most efficient and well-organised hospital you could imagine. I have no problem with her salary - it's a very important position she's in, cut the salary and you won't get a replacement anywhere near her calibre.

if thats ' the most efficient and well-organised hospital you could imagine', i wouldn't like to see the worst..

NIMAN

The more I listen to this story the more I realise that nothing has changed in this country.

We are topping up high earners' wages with money from tuck shops! Come back IMF, we still need you.

westcoast66

Boombastic wrote: »

looks like they are closing rank on this one
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hospital-board-asks-councillor-to-resign-1.1604830

Hospital board asks councillor to resign

A member of the board of the National Maternity Hospital has been formally asked to resign after being accused of making “ill-informed public commentary” regarding top-up payments to senior health sector executives.

Her argument seems to be that the 'top up' she receives is from seeing private patients. What annoys me is that she refuses to answer further questions. Further questions like, when do you see these private patients? Are you using the hospitals facilities for these sessions? She also keeps using the old excuse that her contract is the same as others ie the old 'well, everyone else does it' excuse.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

westcoast66 wrote: »

Her argument seems to be that the 'top up' she receives is from seeing private patients. What annoys me is that she refuses to answer further questions. Further questions like, when do you see these private patients? Are you using the hospitals facilities for these sessions? She also keeps using the old excuse that her contract is the same as others ie the old 'well, everyone else does it' excuse.

Asked and answered!
Private patients pay twice for use of facilities , once through taxation and the they are billed again, the consultant fees make up a small proportion of the overall bill.
I recent had a private day case procedure in the Mater hospital, consultant fees came to less than €300 of a bill of €1,000.

smeedyova

It seems like a lot of people in this forum have never experienced decent medical care in other countries where medics are not paid anything like they are here. Just look to the UK, nobody pays to see a GP there...compared to minimum €50 a go here. Look to Germany...nobody pays to see a GP there, you don't go on a waiting list to see a consultant, you just walk in off the street and see one immediately...you never get a bill if you are PAYE. Private patients pay less than €30 for dermatologist consultation, for example. Anybody on here stating that these consultants "deserve" €250k or whatever really, really need to go abroad to experience how much better a health system can be, how little it has to cost each individual per illness and that there are many, many doctors who work for far, far less than the rip-off merchants here.

Keep them in the country? They wouldn't leave Ireland because they would be laughed at for demanding 1/3 of what they get here. Let them go, I say.

"Around two-thirds of Western countries charge patients to see their GP ranging from 80p in France to £18 in Sweden, with an extra £5 for a home visit.
And half make patients pay for hospitals visits or stays including Sweden where they are £7.50 per night and Portugal which makes them pay £8 every time they go to A&E."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509701/10-charge-visit-GP-Think-tank-suggests-patients-pay-time-visit-doctor-fined-miss-appointment.html#ixzz2lUfyFAZp

Xeyn

smeedyova wrote: »

It seems like a lot of people in this forum have never experienced decent medical care in other countries where medics are not paid anything like they are here. Just look to the UK, nobody pays to see a GP there...compared to minimum €50 a go here. Look to Germany...nobody pays to see a GP there, you don't go on a waiting list to see a consultant, you just walk in off the street and see one immediately...you never get a bill if you are PAYE. Private patients pay less than €30 for dermatologist consultation, for example. Anybody on here stating that these consultants "deserve" €250k or whatever really, really need to go abroad to experience how much better a health system can be, how little it has to cost each individual per illness and that there are many, many doctors who work for far, far less than the rip-off merchants here.

Keep them in the country? They wouldn't leave Ireland because they would be laughed at for demanding 1/3 of what they get here. Let them go, I say.

"Around two-thirds of Western countries charge patients to see their GP ranging from 80p in France to £18 in Sweden, with an extra £5 for a home visit.
And half make patients pay for hospitals visits or stays including Sweden where they are £7.50 per night and Portugal which makes them pay £8 every time they go to A&E."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509701/10-charge-visit-GP-Think-tank-suggests-patients-pay-time-visit-doctor-fined-miss-appointment.html#ixzz2lUfyFAZp

Raise the taxes here and you can have a system like Scandinavia and uk.
Doctors are already leaving in droves because of poor working conditions, so yes if you add poorer pay more will leave. The new consultant salary is the worst in the English speaking world.

smeedyova

Xeyn wrote: »

Raise the taxes here and you can have a system like Scandinavia and uk.
Doctors are already leaving in droves because of poor working conditions, so yes if you add poorer pay more will leave. The new consultant salary is the worst in the English speaking world.

Evidence?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

Evidence?

Todays news evidence enough?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1123/488590-gp-shortage/

The National Association of General Practitioners is warning that unless the number of GPs in this country is increased, Ireland could face a collapse of its primary care system.
Spokesperson Dr Stephen Murphy said a severe shortage of GPs is placing extreme pressure on a system which is already starved of resources.
Speaking in advance of the association's AGM which takes place in Dublin today, he said many new General Practice entrants are leaving the country.

Hootanany

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Born on the Northside, Raheny to be exact, to an average family, youngest of three. Its all online if you look it up, sorry you're cheap inference was?:rolleyes:

Was your last sentance a swipe on my character are you anyway affiliated with this consultant or profession ?

NIMAN

The NHS in England is not free, common misconception.

smeedyova

Bah Feckin Humbug! wrote: »

Todays news evidence enough?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1123/488590-gp-shortage/

The National Association of General Practitioners is warning that unless the number of GPs in this country is increased, Ireland could face a collapse of its primary care system.
Spokesperson Dr Stephen Murphy said a severe shortage of GPs is placing extreme pressure on a system which is already starved of resources.
Speaking in advance of the association's AGM which takes place in Dublin today, he said many new General Practice entrants are leaving the country.

No, quoting somebody in the system, who benefits from the system and wants more money for themselves from the system is not compelling evidence.

Try to provide an independent table of medics salaries throughout the EU and the immigration/emigration levels of medics around the EU.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

smeedyova wrote: »

No, quoting somebody in the system, who benefits from the system and wants more money for themselves from the system is not compelling evidence.

Try to provide an independent table of medics salaries throughout the EU and the immigration/emigration levels of medics around the EU.

You cant win when begrudgery and bitterness seeks to trump common sense and evidential data.

Should have studied medicine instead of the useless Phd!:P

Sir Humphrey Appleby

NIMAN wrote: »

The NHS in England is not free, common misconception.

And you would be lucky to get a doctor to take you on, even if you do you can wait days for an appointment!

smeedyova

NIMAN wrote: »

The NHS in England is not free, common misconception.

How much do you think it costs to see a GP on the NHS?

The current controversy over the possibility of introducing a £10 fee indicates that residents of the UK currently do not pay anything to see a GP...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2509701/10-charge-visit-GP-Think-tank-suggests-patients-pay-time-visit-doctor-fined-miss-appointment.html

Very different to them getting €50-60 per visit here.