Winter Tyres

The Guvnor

What with forecasters or salt merchants predicting the worst winter in a while - do you think winter tyres are worth investing in?

I drive a Touareg so tyres are 255/55/18 -109v

Was talking to a fastway courier who had just put winter tyres of his transporter but he got part worn tyres.

Goodyears - good quality from a cursory glance and with plenty of thread left as well.

Would you opt for part worn tyres?

The courier did say the company that sells them is good and the owner personally inspects the tyres in Germany before they are loaded.

Now this might just a good sales pitch but could also be on the level as I would imagine there are good part worns you just need to whittle out the non a1 tyres first.

The_Mask

There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying part worn tyres, as long as you have a good look for any imperfections and are confident there's enough thread left I say go for it, esp if your only going to be switching tyres for the winter months.

munchkin_utd

its fairly normal for folks to sell on their winter tyres in Germany in good condition depending on circumstances.

If selling your car you may throw them in with the car, but some buyers mightnt pay a premium for the winter tyres / need them as the'd already have a set themselves (say a golf owner buying a new golf) so the seller would be flogging a set of tyres for car he no longer has.
OR a buyer takes the extra set of tyres, ending up with 2 full sets of winter tyres, and will flog one or other set

So with all that messing theres a right trade in part used winter tyres and its not because they are worn out or faulty.

corkgsxr

Just remember they predicted worst winter in years last year too and it dropped below zero once the whole winter.

Now this winter will be below zero at night but I doubt it will be the likes of minus 10-15 again for a long time.

Once you have good tires you can get away with alot. Like I just put a set of goodyears on the van. I think there all season.

I was trying to get the abs to work on a muddy wet country road and I really had to do the dog on it to get even the tinyest but of abs. ( if your wondering I hadn't felt it work in months, was wondering did it work at all)

Herselfs hyundai coupe (06 with the 225/40ish/17 alloys) when she bought it I put in bridgestone pozenzas and all corners ebc pads. Now you can break so hard it feels like the car is trying to launch you through the dash, all without the abs jumping in.

To the point again. You have good tires it matters alot less. Put cack on and you'll feel it when temps drop down.


So whats on the jeep OP?

The_Pretender

corkgsxr wrote: »

Just remember they predicted worst winter in years last year too and it dropped below zero once the whole winter.

Now this winter will be below zero at night but I doubt it will be the likes of minus 10-15 again for a long time.

It's already been -4/-5C in places. Was -4 in Dublin the other day.

corkgsxr

The_Pretender wrote: »

It's already been -4/-5C in places. Was -4 in Dublin the other day.

Think cork has yet to go below 0º.

But big difference between minus 4/5 at night and it not rising above zero during the day.

Anan1

I have mine on for the last week, and the car feels more secure in the wet even below 10 C. It's noticeably noisier over 140, though.

Chris_Heilong

There is absolutely no signs it will be a bad winter, sure its only starting to get a little cold only now.

whomitconcerns

Anan1 wrote: »

I have mine on for the last week, and the car feels more secure in the wet even below 10 C. It's noticeably noisier over 140, though.

noisier over 140

Zubeneschamali

corkgsxr wrote: »

Once you have good tires you can get away with alot.

Sure, but good Winter tyres are better than good Summer or all-season tyres in the winter.

Even if it doesn't snow.

corkgsxr

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sure, but good Winter tyres are better than good Summer or all-season tyres in the winter.

Even if it doesn't snow.

I agree. No argument.

The Dagda

The Guvnor wrote: »

What with forecasters or salt merchants predicting the worst winter in a while - do you think winter tyres are worth investing in?

I drive a Touareg so tyres are 255/55/18 -109v

Was talking to a fastway courier who had just put winter tyres of his transporter but he got part worn tyres.

Goodyears - good quality from a cursory glance and with plenty of thread left as well.

Would you opt for part worn tyres?

The courier did say the company that sells them is good and the owner personally inspects the tyres in Germany before they are loaded.

Now this might just a good sales pitch but could also be on the level as I would imagine there are good part worns you just need to whittle out the non a1 tyres first.

You drive a large 4wd SUV with long travel suspension and tyres that have a relatively deep side wall.

What makes you think you need winter tyres?

If you have a small, light RWD with hard suspension and low profile tyres, and if we actually got "weather" you MIGHT need to get winter tyres.

As it is there is no reason for you to get specific winter tyres. IMO.

Anan1

The Dagda wrote: »

You drive a large 4wd SUV with long travel suspension and tyres that have a relatively deep side wall.

What makes you think you need winter tyres?

If you have a small, light RWD with hard suspension and low profile tyres, and if we actually got "weather" you MIGHT need to get winter tyres.

As it is there is no reason for you to get specific winter tyres. IMO.

Winter tyres are made of softer compound rubber - they grip better in cold weather. This is entirely independent of sidewall depth and suspension travel.

bazzachazza

How exactly does long travel suspension and deep side walled tyres help in cold weather or snow that we get here ?

Piliger

bazzachazza wrote: »

How exactly does long travel suspension and deep side walled tyres help in cold weather or snow that we get here ?

Don't insurance companies in Ireland have clauses forbidding winter tires ?

whomitconcerns

Piliger wrote: »

Don't insurance companies in Ireland have clauses forbidding winter tires ?

nope...I called my ins (axa) as some people were saying there were issues. But they said it makes no difference and they put a note on policy to say i advised them of same.

bazzachazza

Piliger wrote: »

Don't insurance companies in Ireland have clauses forbidding winter tires ?

No why would they ?

BMJD

Piliger wrote: »

Don't insurance companies in Ireland have clauses forbidding winter tires ?

No, not 123.ie or chill.ie because I specifically asked them at renewal time the last two years. 123.ie guy said he put a note aboiut it on my policy, whatever that means.

VeVeX

Did you know? If you buy a part worn winter tyre with 4mm thread its already 100% worn if you follow tyre manufacturer and safety organisation recommendations.

In an official release, Continental AG quotes the advice of one Ruprecht Müller, an expert at the technical center run by the German motoring organization ADAC: “The tread pattern makes a crucial difference, especially on snow and slush,” stated Müller. “A winter tire loses much of its traction on snow in particular when the residual tread depth drops below four millimeters or so. It makes good sense to replace the tires at this tread depth at the very latest.

Where do these tyres then get dumped? Ireland. Eventually we'll come to the realisation that its illogical to dump a perfectly good tyre.

The Dagda

Anan1 wrote: »

Winter tyres are made of softer compound rubber - they grip better in cold weather. This is entirely independent of sidewall depth and suspension travel.

I know exactly how winter tyres work.

He already has a vehicle with better grip, winter tyres are unnecessary.

The Dagda

bazzachazza wrote: »

How exactly does long travel suspension and deep side walled tyres help in cold weather or snow that we get here ?

Softer tyres and suspension aid grip in slippery conditions. I would've thought that to be obvious.

GTE

The Dagda wrote: »

I know exactly how winter tyres work.

He already has a vehicle with better grip, winter tyres are unnecessary.

Your implication that a tyre with cold weather competency is not required when the car has good/better suspension is complete rubbish. Heaven above there is some crap posted here.

GTE

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sure, but good Winter tyres are better than good Summer or all-season tyres in the winter.

Even if it doesn't snow.

Indeed though I have been having fantastic experiences with snowflake marked all season tyres for the past 3 or 4 years.

That is the difference, all season tyres was a term that meant nothing until the relatively select few which are good enough to obtain that snowflake mark. They won't be as good as full Winters but not useless by any means as I gather "they" used to be (by "they" I mean the section of the tyre market).

The Dagda

bbk wrote: »

Your implication that a tyre with cold weather competency is not required when the car has good/better suspension is complete rubbish. Heaven above there is some crap posted here.

You're right there is some crap posted here.

Winter tyres are not required in Ireland for standard cars, nevermind a VW Toureg.

GTE

The Dagda wrote: »

You're right there is some crap posted here.

Winter tyres are not required in Ireland for standard cars.

A VW Toureg and the like definately do not require them.

Righteo Dagda. :pac:

Zubeneschamali

The Dagda wrote: »

He already has a vehicle with better grip, winter tyres are unnecessary.

4WD provides traction, to get you moving and keep you moving. It provides no extra grip for cornering or braking. Nor do tall sidewalls or long-travel suspension.

Meanwhile, SUVs are generally heavier than a car with the same room and engine size, so they need more grip than a car does for cornering and braking. Winter tyres make more sense on an SUV than on a car.

The Dagda

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

4WD provides traction, to get you moving and keep you moving. It provides no extra grip for cornering or braking. Nor do tall sidewalls or long-travel suspension.

Meanwhile, SUVs are generally heavier than a car with the same room and engine size, so they need more grip than a car does for cornering and braking. Winter tyres make more sense on an SUV than on a car.

tyres and suspension provide no extra grip??!! :pac:

tall tyres flex to provide a larger surface area and soft suspension help keep said tyres in contact with the ground, thus aiding grip further...

bazzachazza

The Dagda wrote: »

Softer tyres and suspension aid grip in slippery conditions. I would've thought that to be obvious.

Not really can you explain it to me, you can draw pictures if you need to. If they're really good I can send them on to all the major winter tyre manufacturers and show them why they should give up and move into big tyres and long suspension instead.

tossy

WInter tyre topics should be banned at this stage as most of the people psoting in them ddon't have a clue what they are talking about and have no real world experience of winter tyres.

Renegade Mechanic

The Dagda wrote: »

You're right there is some crap posted here.

Winter tyres are not required in Ireland for standard cars, nevermind a VW Toureg.

Mabye not in ireland but lets forget location for a minute. Your in a wintery situation. Some parts of the road are frosty its -5 or below etc... Suspension travel and the like are advantageous but make next to no difference whatsoever compared to the momentum your vehicle generates. If you lose control on a slippery surface in, say, a Nissan Almera then your tyres have just lost their ability to resist your cars current direction. Thats a full tonne of car youve got to try and keep between the ditches.

A Toe-rag weighs twice as much. Thats two tonnes of momentum the same standard tyres have to bring under control if its lost. And having wider tyres reduces the pressure the vehicle exerts on the ground, making the situation much worse. Having driven a jeep I can safely say, contrary to popular belief, massive cars like the Touregs, Patrols, Troopers etc are lethally difficult to keep in control in frost and such. Their naturally better at moving away and are easier to keep straight and true but "the big soft suspension" kills feedback making it harder to stay out of trouble and its if you do find yourself in trouble that youll wish to god youd taken the Almera instead.. So definitely give yourself an advantage and put some winter tyres on them. Further that advantage by getting less wide than standard tyres too (within reason).

As a side note, winter tyres arent about control on packed snow or ice- if you hit either, it doesnt matter whats under your car/jeep. Its about what their made of. The compound is much softer than a summer tyre, hence they wear out so fast. But that softness allows tgem to retain that sort of soft, plyability or "stickiness" that a summer or standard tyre loses when it hardens during cold weather.
On a cold but dry road, a winter tyre will completely outperform a standard tyre for safety. On cold, wet, muddy and leaf filled road that gap widens further.

The Dagda

bazzachazza wrote: »

Not really can you explain it to me, you can draw pictures if you need to. If they're really good I can send them on to all the major winter tyre manufacturers and show them why they should give up and move into big tyres and long suspension instead.

jeez, i wonder why tyre manufactures would want people to buy an extra set of tyres just for the winter months

bazzachazza

The Dagda wrote: »

jeez, i wonder why tyre manufactures would want people to buy an extra set of tyres just for the winter months

Wow those Europeans really are a gullible lot.

The Dagda

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Mabye not in ireland but lets forget location for a minute. Your in a wintery situation. Some parts of the road are frosty its -5 or below etc... Suspension travel and the like are advantageous but make next to no difference whatsoever compared to the momentum your vehicle generates. If you lose control on a slippery surface in, say, a Nissan Almera then your tyres have just lost their ability to resist your cars current direction. Thats a full tonne of car youve got to try and keep between the ditches.

A Toe-rag weighs twice as much. Thats two tonnes of momentum the same standard tyres have to bring under control if its lost. And having wider tyres reduces the pressure the vehicle exerts on the ground, making the situation much worse. Having driven a jeep I can safely say, contrary to popular belief, massive cars like the Touregs, Patrols, Troopers etc are lethally difficult to keep in control in frost and such. Their naturally better at moving away and are easier to keep straight and true but "the big soft suspension" kills feedback making it harder to stay out of trouble and its if you do find yourself in trouble that youll wish to god youd taken the Almera instead.. So definitely give yourself an advantage and put some winter tyres on them. Further that advantage by getting less wide than standard tyres too (within reason).

As a side note, winter tyres arent about control on packed snow or ice- if you hit either, it doesnt matter whats under your car/jeep. Its about what their made of. The compound is much softer than a summer tyre, hence they wear out so fast. But that softness allows tgem to retain that sort of soft, plyability or "stickiness" that a summer or standard tyre loses when it hardens during cold weather.
On a cold but dry road, a winter tyre will completely outperform a standard tyre for safety. On cold, wet, muddy and leaf filled road that gap widens further.

sure why stop at winter tyres? why not have hot weather tyres, wet weather tyres, frost tyres, snow tyres?!

Those percentages of a percentage are fierce important yaknow...

The Dagda

bazzachazza wrote: »

Wow those Europeans really are a gullible lot.

The context of the thread, and all my points, is Ireland. Try to keep up.

GTE

The Dagda wrote: »

jeez, i wonder why tyre manufactures would want people to buy an extra set of tyres just for the winter months

Ohh ZING! YEAH cause, the tyres when not in use still get worn down and . . oh wait. :rolleyes:

Judging by this place alone, the tyre manufacturers were a few years behind informed motorists who were specifically asking for snowflake marked tyres. Examples of this are from online stores as it took me years to find a local tyre centre that would entertain the idea of Winter tyres and All-Season ones.


I think it is to fair to say that the snowfall of the past few years is the first in our history that happened with a public who had:
- Wide spread computing
- Easy to access information
- Access to a growing online market place (Eiretyres, Camskill and the like)

The result of this is a buyers driven market as the Bridgestone A001 is a perfect example of this reaction to market demand.

The tyre manufactures do want more sales but that just means the Summer tyres will take a while longer to use up and my all seasons certainly do not wear any more than my old Summers.

Renegade Mechanic

The Dagda wrote: »

sure why stop at winter tyres? why not have hot weather tyres, wet weather tyres, frost tyres, snow tyres?!

Those percentages of a percentage are fierce important yaknow...

Lemme guess.... You just let some air out of the tyres you have, to increase you vehicles footprint on the slippery surface, thereby increasing its grip.....?

The Dagda

bbk wrote: »

Ohh ZING! YEAH cause, the tyres when not in use still get worn down and . . oh wait. :rolleyes:

Judging by this place alone, the tyre manufacturers were a few years behind informed motorists who were specifically asking for snowflake marked tyres. Examples of this are from online stores as it took me years to find a local tyre centre that would entertain the idea of Winter tyres and All-Season ones.


I think it is to fair to say that the snowfall of the past few years is the first in our history that happened with a public who had:
- Wide spread computing
- Easy to access information
- Access to a growing online market place (Eiretyres, Camskill and the like)

The result of this is a buyers driven market as the Bridgestone A001 is a perfect example of this reaction to market demand.

The tyre manufactures do want more sales but that just means the Summer tyres will take a while longer to use up and my all seasons certainly do not wear any more than my old Summers.

Wow a winter tyre nerd, how fascinating...

The Dagda

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Lemme guess.... You just let some air out of the tyres you have, to increase you vehicles footprint on the slippery surface, thereby increasing its grip.....?

No I just adjust my driving to suit the conditions...

Zubeneschamali

The Dagda wrote: »

tyres and suspension provide no extra grip??!!

I have been arguing all along that tyres provide extra grip: winter tyres.

tall tyres flex to provide a larger surface area and soft suspension help keep said tyres in contact with the ground, thus aiding grip further...

If you drive in such a way on snow and ice that your tyres are only in contact with the road if your suspension is soft, winter tyres are the least of your worries.

Renegade Mechanic

The Dagda wrote: »

No I just adjust my driving to suit the conditions...

Good, so youre a responsible driver at least.
What youve said is of course the single biggest way of making any vehicle safe during winter. But it doesnt change the fact that somewhere on any given journey, responsible drivers will have a hill to climb or worse, a downhill road to try and keep his, say, back wheel drive beamer at a safe, low speed on. Or they may need to stop relatively quickly or in an extreme case avoid someone else. It might only be 40mph or less where something might happen but I genuinely believe the right tyre make-up will make a big difference.

Zubeneschamali

The Dagda wrote: »

Those percentages of a percentage are fierce important yaknow...

50% difference in stopping distance certainly makes a difference.

The Dagda

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you drive in such a way on snow and ice that your tyres are only in contact with the road if your suspension is soft, winter tyres are the least of your worries.

lolz way to twist the sh1t out of what I'm saying :pac:

The Dagda

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

50% difference in stopping distance certainly makes a difference.

That's called "doing an anglo!" pulling numbers out of your arse...

bazzachazza

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

50% difference in stopping distance certainly makes a difference.

No it doesn't it was the long travel suspension and soft walled tyres that did it:rolleyes:

The Dagda

bazzachazza wrote: »

No it doesn't it was the long travel suspension and soft walled tyres that did it:rolleyes:

ok bazza let go of the squeaky toy...

The Dagda

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Good, so youre a responsible driver at least.
What youve said is of course the single biggest way of making any vehicle safe during winter. But it doesnt change the fact that somewhere on any given journey, responsible drivers will have a hill to climb or worse, a downhill road to try and keep his, say, back wheel drive beamer at a safe, low speed on. Or they may need to stop relatively quickly or in an extreme case avoid someone else. It might only be 40mph or less where something might happen but I genuinely believe the right tyre make-up will make a big difference.

tyres MIGHT make a slight difference, as you said yourself the biggest difference is the driver.

forget about "stuff" making you a better driver, just concentrate more.

wexie

The Dagda wrote: »

That's called "doing an anglo!" pulling numbers out of your arse...

Have a read of this :

And that brings us to our next test: full stops with ABS engaged. Here again the snow tires dominate, stopping from 40 mph in 156 feet, some 28 feet shorter than the all-season tires' 184-foot performance. Meanwhile, our summer tires skate to an ultimate distance of 351 feet, the ABS actuator rattling for all it's worth the whole way.

there is absolutely no denying the fact that winter tyres outperform summer tires or all season tires in ALL aspects....given the right conditions

Are we likely to encounter these conditions in Ireland......****edifiknow.....we have several winters....then again not for several winters....no telling really.

Depends on how safe and prepared you want to be I guess.

Zubeneschamali

The Dagda wrote: »

That's called "doing an anglo!" pulling numbers out of your arse...

Go and read some independent tests. You know nothing about the subject, and you are demonstrating it further with every post.

GTE

On the point of braking distances, Auto Express did a test with a Seal Leon (I am sure it has wonderful suspension).

Braking distance from 30 mph on snow - Less applicable in Ireland:

Summer - 85 meters
Winter - 27 meters

Braking distance from 50 mph on wet cold road (4 degree road temp) - More applicable in Ireland

Summer - 43 meters
Winter - 36 meters

That said, no tests with lateral loads but the deceleration results do show the limits of adhesion.

Renegade Mechanic

The Dagda wrote: »

tyres MIGHT make a slight difference, as you said yourself the biggest difference is the driver.

forget about "stuff" making you a better driver, just concentrate more.

Consider me a "performance enhancing drug user among drivers" then.

Sheldons Brain

And that brings us to our next test: full stops with ABS engaged. Here again the snow tires dominate, stopping from 40 mph in 156 feet, some 28 feet shorter than the all-season tires' 184-foot performance. Meanwhile, our summer tires skate to an ultimate distance of 351 feet, the ABS actuator rattling for all it's worth the whole way

All seasons aren't much more than half summer here, it is hard to justify summer tyres in Ireland at all.