problems with builder

Gearoil

Hi
I'm looking for advise on managing my builder.

• not following planning permission granted, resulting in bedroom window not opening as roof profile does not match drawings
• According to his QS costing's he is at point A, however he is telling me he has done 55,000 euros more than he has been paid, which does not match the QS costing's at all.
• Changing sizes of velux windows without consulting me
• telling me things are broken, when they were not broken to begin with so must have been broken by his tradesmen.
• Ordering windows with wrong measurements resulting in windows being too small, where he has put slips of timber in making the frame double the size what it should be.
• The electrician told me that the architect told him to disregard what I had said about how many telephone points are to be installed.

I would appreciate any advise as I can only see two options now:

• I assert myself which puts me at risk of him walking off site ( previous attempts he has threatened to remove everyone) but I'm left with a half finished house.
• I stand back and do nothing, continue paying him, and get them finished as soon as possible.

Gearoil

JuniorB

Option 1.

hexosan

Cut your losses, this guy sounds like a complete tool. Why would you want someone like this near the biggest investment you'll probably make in your life.
Long after he's gone you'll be living with his mess.

BryanF

YOUR architect should be dealing with this assuming he is the contracts administrator on the job

you also need to confront YOUR architect about this telephone point issue - it wouldnt be the first time a builder has done his own thing.

one thing YOU need to watch is that all communications between you and the builder should be in writing.

kkelliher

What is happening to you happens to a high volume of people during construction projects. I assume you have an architect and he if anyone (or she of course) should be doing the asserting on your behalf. In respect to getting a handle on what has being spent to date have a chat with a local QS yourself and it maybe worth your while asking him to cost the completed works to date to give you a better idea of the true position.

You should highlight all of your issues to the architect and items that are simply unacceptable should be detailed in writing to the builder thereby putting him on notice in respect to the issues.

Gearoil

Many thanks for the reply's, it seems challenge and take the risk!. As the Architect has told the electrician to disregard what I had said about the phone points, I wouldn't trust he would act in my interests and did not employ him to manage the project (which I am glad about). I asked the builder today about the window being blocked by the roof line, he told me that the roof line was changed and approved by the Architect and said it was the only way it could be done the objection I have is that they both decided not to mention it to me!!!!, which is most likely going to cost me more money!!! however neither he or the Architect even mentioned it to me as an issue. The whole roof line has changed and been completed before I spotted it.

Yes I think the only option is to challenge and take the risk.

thank you for advise, I was beginning to think I was the fool.

BryanF

Gearoil wrote: »

Many thanks for the reply's, it seems challenge and take the risk!. As the Architect has told the electrician to disregard what I had said about the phone points, I wouldn't trust he would act in my interests and did not employ him to manage the project (which I am glad about). I asked the builder today about the window being blocked by the roof line, he told me that the roof line was changed and approved by the Architect and said it was the only way it could be done the objection I have is that they both decided not to mention it to me!!!!, which is most likely going to cost me more money!!! however neither he or the Architect even mentioned it to me as an issue. The whole roof line has changed and been completed before I spotted it.

Yes I think the only option is to challenge and take the risk.

thank you for advise,I was beginning to think I was the fool.

there is something major wrong here.

1. ARE YOU THE PROJECT MANAGER OR WHO IS???
2. YOU keep referring to architect instructions to the builder from what seems to be info gleamed from the builder???
3. YOU need to TALK to the architect and not the builder, you should always consider both sides to an argument
4. if you did not employ your architect to 'administering the contract' what is he doing on site?
5. and why is the builder taking instruction from him?

who is 'administering the contract' ??? is there some else or is it you???



i strongly recommend you employ an independent third party to deal with your contract and builder.

Gearoil

Sorry for not being clear. I do have an architect, however he is not managing the project, the building contractor is managing it. Had to take him away from the site yesterday to focus his mind on the budget. However he has had the carpenter build a window seat, without discussing it with me I arrived and it was there! This is an extra that I did not ask to be done. I'm concerned that that the stairs is not in and he is putting finishing touches in when they have not been agreed.
However he has yesterday heard what I've said about the budget and is getting his QS back to price where things are at now. Despite my repeated reminders of the budget he has only yesterday begun to take it in. I'm left with a half finished house! The frustration is that he has never been willing to sit and discuss the budget, has made decisions with the architect without involving me the architect is only involved as he will sign off for planning. Yet there are problems with the windows etc.
The quality of the work is to a very high standard this can not be argued. But I have been left out of most decisions and no doubt will be expected to pay for them. And still he tells me not to stress about it!! He could learn a lot from the English builders who have everything in writing and agreed before any changes or additions are made. I've nothing in writing apart from his QS initial costing. I would recommend his work, but sadly not when it comes to managing the budget I can not.

650gs

I don't understand this at all, I give a complete breakdown even on a really small job and there are never any extras unless we talk about them from the start. I would say don't talk to him just sack him cut your losses there are plenty of good trades men/builders that take pride in there work

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

I don't understand this at all, I give a complete breakdown even on a really small job and there are never any extras unless we talk about them from the start. I would say don't talk to him just sack him cut your losses there are plenty of good trades men/builders that take pride in there work

Very few builders give any sort of breakdown but in respect to the position the op is in, i find it hard to see how anyone knows whats going on because there does not appear to be any structure to the design team and it is only going one way. In respect to sacking the builder, this is near impossible unless he is not progressing with the works or can get him to agree to leave. It appears that builder is working to instruction and its the design team side that is all over the place. Sack him and you will generally get yourself a courtcase. Standard forms of contract are specific on this issue

650gs

kkelliher wrote: »

Very few builders give any sort of breakdown but in respect to the position the op is in, i find it hard to see how anyone knows whats going on because there does not appear to be any structure to the design team and it is only going one way. In respect to sacking the builder, this is near impossible unless he is not progressing with the works or can get him to agree to leave. It appears that builder is working to instruction and its the design team side that is all over the place. Sack him and you will generally get yourself a courtcase. Standard forms of contract are specific on this issue

I am amazed about the no breakdown bit absolutely amazed, and would have thought breach of contract would be the reason to sack the builder or hold payments

wirehairmax

650gs wrote: »

I am amazed about the no breakdown bit absolutely amazed, and would have thought breach of contract would be the reason to sack the builder or hold payments

Is there even a contract in place? There have been a few issues that more than likely relate to lack of information and documentation before commencement and poor quality planning drawings being used on site. The builder has made a mistake measuring the windows, that is unacceptable but it is usually the window company that measures and the builder or PM would check. I've seen this happen before but I made the window company fit PVC sections to extend their frames to fill the gaps and then the builder had to build out to the original frame until there was a uniform reveal on all sides.
The whole thing is a mess and how many times have we come across similar situations here. What has happened here is typical of so many self-builds.

No construction drawings. Planning drawings being used when they are almost never fit for use on site.
No BOQ or simple pricing document providing a breakdown. That is not the builders fault. This is the clients responsibility to engage professionals to manage the project on his/her behalf if they lack the knowledge and experience to do so themselves.
An architect who is only engaged to make a handful of site visits for the sole purpose of mortgage certification.
A builder who is probably screwed to the pin of his collar by a client who thinks he is doing the builder a favour by giving him the job.
Effectively there is nobody ''project managing'' this build.

650gs

As explained in the op

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

I am amazed about the no breakdown bit absolutely amazed, and would have thought breach of contract would be the reason to sack the builder or hold payments

The op has not outlined anything that would be a breach of contract and there is no legal reason to ever hold payments on works completed unless defective

650gs

Not following planing permission I would say should be the first one, and a big one if someone complained and had work stopped.
Changing the size of velux windows, breaking things god only knows what and ordering the wrong size windows and guntering them with pieces of wood, come on seems to me like a real chancer

Gearoil

Thank you all so much, yes I looked for a contract and schedule of works at the start of the build, however this was not forthcoming. Yes there are a number of mistakes I've made here myself, such as not insisting on the contract. He
Has been so vague from the beginning forcing me to eventually take him away from the site to focus his mind.
Think the main problem has been being a single woman on my own and he thought he didn't listen to what I was saying.
I've done several building projects in the UK and have always signed a contract and been given a schedule of works the week before the work begins.
I was really wanting to do a phase two to this project and use the same builder, however I think now this will not be happening, unless I can sort this out with him.

650gs

With no contract sack him now, cut your losses if you have to and better still go to your solicitor and chase him for cost's seems like a right cowboy

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

With no contract sack him now, cut your losses if you have to and better still go to your solicitor and chase him for cost's seems like a right cowboy

No signed contract does not mean no contract in place.

builder appears to be working under architect direction

650gs

Well as they say a verbal contract is not worth the paper its written on, and there is no excuse for incompetent behavior on behalf of the builder or architect sack them both and sue both of them for the time they have wasted and any damage caused and waste of materials.
The only way to deal with people like this is to drag them into court with a good solicitor sooner rather than later and sue them for everything, they give the whole trade a bad name

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

Well as they say a verbal contract is not worth the paper its written on, and there is no excuse for incompetent behavior on behalf of the builder or architect sack them both and sue both of them for the time they have wasted and any damage caused and waste of materials.
The only way to deal with people like this is to drag them into court with a good solicitor sooner rather than later and sue them for everything, they give the whole trade a bad name

You clearly know little or have little regard for due process. Verbal contract when backed up by consideration is a perfectly legitimate and clear form of contract. There are clearly communication issues from all sides in the op situation and sacking everyone will only end up costing the op. I fail to see how you think the op would be in any way successful in court based on what they have outlined

BryanF

650gs wrote: »

Well as they say a verbal contract is not worth the paper its written on, and there is no excuse for incompetent behavior on behalf of the builder or architect sack them both and sue both of them for the time they have wasted and any damage caused and waste of materials.
The only way to deal with people like this is to drag them into court with a good solicitor sooner rather than later and sue them for everything, they give the whole trade a bad name

talk of dragging the arch/ builder through the courts while there is a half built house with an active labour force is ludicrous. the project can be saved, but a supervising team needs to be put in place - that the client has confidence in.
you'll note:

• we do not have all the facts.
• the OP's posts have been confused at best (no offense meant OP)
• the 'contract administrator' is not clear
• the role of the architect is not clearly defined
• the builder is paid 55k more than work done?
• there is a mysterious Qs ?
• there is problems with the windows, electrics etc but no one taking control of the situation - however the work is to a high quality??

a QS would probably be best placed (a mediator/ contract administrator) employed by the client of course.

650gs

Still drag them into court best way out

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

Still drag them into court best way out

In reality its actually the worst way out and anyone with any experience of it will confirm.

Your flippant attitude to this issue is exactly why there is so many disputes in construction as you clearly do not understand construction law

650gs

No excuse for incompetence

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

No excuse for incompetence

Completely agree but court is not always the answer or even an option

BryanF

kkelliher wrote: »

In reality its actually the worst way out and anyone with any experience of it will confirm.

650gs wrote: »

No excuse for incompetence

kkelliher wrote: »

Your flippant attitude to this issue is exactly why there is so many disputes in construction as you clearly do not understand construction law

+1

wirehairmax

BryanF wrote: »

+1

+2

DOCARCH

kkelliher wrote: »

In reality its actually the worst way out and anyone with any experience of it will confirm.

Indeed. Solicitors and barristers tend to be the ultimate winners!

650gs

DOCARCH wrote: »

Indeed. Solicitors and barristers tend to be the ultimate winners!

Depends who you know mine is free.
And from where I see it a lot of people tend to get bullyed buy these type of people so the best way is let someone that knows what hes talking about sort it

wirehairmax

650gs wrote: »

Depends who you know mine is free.
And from where I see it a lot of people tend to get bullyed buy these type of people so the best way is let someone that knows what hes talking about sort it

A solicitor who works for free? Care to share? Unless you're on free legal aid?
Solicitors are parasites and ambulance chasers. They're the last person you want to see before the undertaker!

650gs

wirehairmax wrote: »

A solicitor who works for free? Care to share? Unless you're on free legal aid?
Solicitors are parasites and ambulance chasers. They're the last person you want to see before the undertaker!

Parasites and ambulance chasers:eek::eek::eek::eek: professionals just like any other trade and as we can see from this post there are good and bad in every trade lets not forget Mr Thomas McFeely a prime example, a lot of cowboys out there in an unregulated business, the sooner that changes the better.
My solicitor is a life long friend who runs a professional business and would recommend him to anyone and as the saying goes if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about

kkelliher

650gs wrote: »

as the saying goes if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about

this does not apply to construction contracts which are not based on doing right or wrong they are based on principals (and obligations), scope and risk.

You can do everything right in a contract (Ask most subcontractors) and still end up losing (correctly) in a contract dispute.

BryanF

wirehairmax wrote: »

A solicitor who works for free? Care to share? Unless you're on free legal aid?
Solicitors are parasites and ambulance chasers. They're the last person you want to see before the undertaker!

650gs wrote: »

Parasites and ambulance chasers:eek::eek::eek::eek: professionals just like any other trade and as we can see from this post there are good and bad in every trade lets not forget Mr Thomas McFeely a prime example, a lot of cowboys out there in an unregulated business, the sooner that changes the better.
My solicitor is a life long friend who runs a professional business and would recommend him to anyone and as the saying goes if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about

ok this line of the discussion is gone far enough back to the OP thanks

fealeranger

If i were in this situation I would be trying to sit the builder and architect down together with a set of drawings and see where and why the changes were made and why it was done without prior notification. If you had specified window sizes on the drawing then why were they disregarded? You need to take control of this already bad situation and lay down that you have the money and nobody gets anything until the situation is completly rectified. You don't have a supervisior yet from what I have read your builder and architect are making the decisions. In my view you really have nobody to blame for this getting out of hand only yourself. You say you have dealt with builds abroad? How could you possibly have let this happen if you say you had exposure to the building trades in several instances in England. Something does not seem right with all this!!!

martinn123

wirehairmax wrote: »

Solicitors are parasites and ambulance chasers. They're the last person you want to see before the undertaker!

That would make a great Thread, over in the Legal Forum:D

wirehairmax

martinn123 wrote: »

That would make a great Thread, over in the Legal Forum:D

Will I for the craic?

martinn123

wirehairmax wrote: »

Will I for the craic?

Ask BryanF to move it for you, after all it's off topic here.:pac:

Gearoil

It seems my question has caused a bit of a stir!
The builder is finishing off the project and sorting out the window issue. Am concerned though that the roof line changes without any discussion with me will not be resolved and have just realised this morning that the electrician has put the hall ceiling light in the wrong place, which should have been to the centre but it is nearer to the landing than the hall. Think it was because it can't be reached to change a bulb!! As things begin to finish I'm coming across issues where convenience was used rather than logic, which will affect how I use the space.!
Have decided that I need to get an independent person like an architect or engineer to look at it however will need to wait till they have all gone. Sadly I hate this house now and don't want to move in at all.

kkelliher

Gearoil wrote: »

It seems my question has caused a bit of a stir!
The builder is finishing off the project and sorting out the window issue. Am concerned though that the roof line changes without any discussion with me will not be resolved and have just realised this morning that the electrician has put the hall ceiling light in the wrong place, which should have been to the centre but it is nearer to the landing than the hall. Think it was because it can't be reached to change a bulb!! As things begin to finish I'm coming across issues where convenience was used rather than logic, which will affect how I use the space.!
Have decided that I need to get an independent person like an architect or engineer to look at it however will need to wait till they have all gone. Sadly I hate this house now and don't want to move in at all.

Not a stir in my view just how not to do building your home. If you do not surround yourself with proper advice it generally ends badly as there is nobody looking after you both financially and technically

jfmeto

To have little to worry about so

kkelliher

jfmeto wrote: »

To have little to worry about so

?