Timed with a calendar

Dory Dory

O. M. G. !!!! Look at you, Mr. PB and I-won-my-age-by-20-minutes Man. Jeez, I don't check in here for a week or so due to travel and illness, and here you are just knocking the stuffing out of a race. Fan-damn-tastic! Congrats to you - I am seriously delighted for you. And you even did this without that nuclear kiss. Well done. I truly hope this brings you good things in New York.

Oh, what exactly is Boomer? (gorgeous pics, and love the Halloween decorations!)

pgmcpq

Dory Dory wrote: »

O. M. G. !!!! Look at you, Mr. PB and I-won-my-age-by-20-minutes Man. Jeez, I don't check in here for a week or so due to travel and illness, and here you are just knocking the stuffing out of a race. Fan-damn-tastic! Congrats to you - I am seriously delighted for you. And you even did this without that nuclear kiss. Well done. I truly hope this brings you good things in New York.

Oh, what exactly is Boomer? (gorgeous pics, and love the Halloween decorations!)

Yeah, pleased with that run ... but in the interests of full disclosure, the guy I overtook in the last mile was 3rd in the next AG up :eek:. So my AG was really weirdly weak this year.

Boomer lives in our sister town on the PA side of the bridge. He also sits just as the tow path enters the town ... and he has his own website and webcam ! http://boomercam.com/

... and yeah - they are really really into Halloween here - that's a private house !

... and congrats to you on the sub12 IM.

Krusty_Clown

Congrats on the AG win. The standard may not have been up to scratch, but you ran a PB, so what more could you ask for? I presume you'd have had a good podium positron last year with this year's time? I wouldn't worry about over-cooking it for this race at the cost of your NYC performance; the timing sounds absolutely perfect for one last hard effort - so you should head into the marathon with the confidence that you're on great shape. How's the weather looking for the marathon? Too early to speculate?

pgmcpq

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Congrats on the AG win. The standard may not have been up to scratch, but you ran a PB, so what more could you ask for? I presume you'd have had a good podium positron last year with this year's time? I wouldn't worry about over-cooking it for this race at the cost of your NYC performance; the timing sounds absolutely perfect for one last hard effort - so you should head into the marathon with the confidence that you're on great shape. How's the weather looking for the marathon? Too early to speculate?

Don't get me wrong - probably my best run in several years. This really was my target race and I had been thinking I would just see what I had left for NY - try to get the BQ tied up.....but now I am starting to wonder if a bit more ambition might be justified.

Never too early to speculate: Temps look good, high 64f(19c)/low 45f/8c - enough but the forecast includes rain which does not really suit me.

BTW, Krusty: We were having a discussion a few weeks ago about progress in running. So I sent a few guys off to start reading your log here with instructions to start at the last page, the jump to the first page and start reading.


Wednesday: 5+ miles (42 minutes), kayak
Took the opportunity of a great day to get the kayak in the water for possibly the last time. So usual routine, drop boat off upstream, drive further down, leave car, run back. No Garmin as I don't want to risk it in the water, but the run is about 5.2 miles. So probably a bit too fast for an easy run.

Thursday: 7.5 miles w/2.5@MP
Plan was to keep the HR below 120 then do the MP miles. Didn't really adhere to the plan so HR and pace drifted upwards. A little annoyed with myself. I was very disciplined before LBI. Anyway MP felt a little too hard
7.16 136
7.16 139
7.17 142
Ok ... but is that the beginning of drift in the HR at the end ?

Thinking about 7.20-7.25 as MP (down from ~7.30) it's actually closer to the pace I have actually hit on the MP miles ...so this would mean there were not too fast after all:). This is in line with my new feeling that I should take more risks in racing.

pgmcpq

Friday: 7.5+ easy.
Managed to run this with my reading glasses on . Knew something was not quite right but could not identify the problem until I got back home.
Saturday: 4 miles easy
Rolling hills (the creek).
Sunday: 12.5+ miles
Run got off to a dodgy start as one of the group dropped her car keys down a drain five feet below the road. Luckily I had brought the car and had my kayaking gear including a set of bungy cords. Took 30 minutes and four attempts but we finally managed to maneuver the keys onto the hook of the cord and inch it back to its owner.
The run was ok after all that ... probably a bit too fast but the HR range was largely ok ... in the 120s, with some drift into low 130s. Finished off with a few MP fartlek-like stretches in the last 1.5 miles.

Week: 53.5 Solid week - first half work, second half taper.

Dory Dory

Are you saying you ran 7.5 miles while wearing your reading glasses by accident??? :eek:!!!

Um....you must've been really focused on your running! :cool:
Or, in pre-taper madness!!!

pgmcpq

Dory Dory wrote: »

Are you saying you ran 7.5 miles while wearing your reading glasses by accident??? :eek:!!!

Um....you must've been really focused on your running! :cool:
Or, in pre-taper madness!!!

Yes, 'faid so . I had this ....feeling that something was .... slightly "off". Mentally reviewed legs, breathing, stride, hips, foot landing .... all seemed ok. Eye wear is generally on my check list ! In fairness my grip on reality is often a little ... "loose".


Monday: 5 miles, easy
HR < 120, although not be a lot. Great day - please, please, please let this weather hold for the week.

Dory Dory

Best of luck to you this weekend!!!!

pgmcpq

Wednesday: 6 miles, easy, hilly, w/3*strides
Rested Tuesday and was rewarded with an unexpected (by me) day of downpours. Decided to do an easy run on route with rolling hills.
Thursday: 4 miles, recovery w/4*strides
Friday: 2.5 miles, recovery

pgmcpq

*Sigh* ... gotta get this off my chest before the mojito cloud dims the memory

This will read like a bit of broken record if you've ever read a previous marathon race report from me. Originally I had targeted the 18 miler three weeks ago as my A-race, but it went well and I seemed to recover well so I began to wonder about having a real go to NY. The closer the race got the more realistic this seemed.

The logistics worked out well: Mrs P dropped me at Staten Island; conditions were pretty much ideal, and I rolled up in a space blanket to wait for the start. I did have a screw up and accidentally checked a pouch of food I planned to take with me, so I decided to take a gatorade pouch (I know, I know don't try anything new) before the race. I had planned to take food early to avoid the problem of being unable to get anything down later in the race.
Whether this had any impact or not my stomach did not feel great and got steadily worse.

Entering the corral I sat down at the back to find the a*******e beside me smoking :mad:. Royally pissed off, I moved, Considered alerting a volunteer but they had their hands full so I became another enabler.

The plan was to try to average 7.25 for the first 15 miles +/- 60 seconds, and then pick it up after mile 16.5 on the downhill section [insert sarcastic laugh]

Mile 1: 8.36
The first mile was a mess. The Verrazano was horribly congested with idiots taking photos. We finally ground to a walk thanks to a bloody group of eight people clogging up the entire wave. The first mile is a climb so I had planned to lose about 40secs, but I had not counted on being over a minute down to start.

Miles 2: 6.58
The downhill of the Verrazano. Ok so write the first mile off, stay patient and chip off some time.

Miles 3-11 : 7.28, 7.26, 7.19, 7.22, 7.25, 7.31, 7.24, 7.29, 7.39
Happy enough with these miles. The miles through Brooklyn roll quite a bit so I think on aggregate this was pretty much to plan.
But the mid Brooklyn sucked frankly. As the roads narrowed the was enough congestion, combined with people dropping stuff right in the road (wtf?) that you had to watch your footing. Worse were the people who continuously ran across the road in front of runners. One woman brought down a guy along side me with a block that an NFL offensive line man would have been proud of. I swear ,he guy was actually lifted into the air before hitting the asphalt :mad:. Not six yards later a couple, who could not have missed this event, decided that they too would try to cross the road cutting in front of me. I roared several expletives (Oh, I am not THAT long out of Dublin) and sprayed them with the remaining water from my water bottle :mad::mad:. Emptied the bottle but worth it. Have to say I was royally p.o.ed.

Mile 12: 8.09
The stomach was getting a little worse so with two tough bridges coming up I reluctantly decided the time invested in a pit stop (#1) might be worth it.

Mile 13: 7.21
Up and down. My half way time looked pretty much bang on.

Mile 14: 7.48
Starting the climb onto 59th street bridge. I knew the GPS would be lost here so I was focusing on keeping the effort under control.

Miles 15-16 Who knows ?
On the twilight zone of the bridge. At mile 16 I lapped the watch manually. Coming down the bridge is pretty steep and winds so you don't really get the full benefit of the down hill. Actually I got completely turned around here and so ran a less than ideal race line.

Miles 17-18: 6.57, 7.31
Well so much for the downhill ... lasts about a mile.

Mile 19: 7.49
Up the bridge to the Bronx. OK, so PB prospects are probably gone

Mile 20: 8.11
Oh, oh - not good and we are not climbing anymore. At this point I began thinking : don't panic, hold on try to clock a few 7.xx

Mile 21: 7.57
There ...no so bad, and are back into Manhattan so I was able to lean into a few declines. Ship steadied right ?

Mile 22: 8.25
Maybe not. BQ-5 is looking fragile.

Mile 23: 8.59
The 5th Avenue climb(110-95th) broke me. But look if I can hang on for three more 8.xx miles I might still get a usable BQ ....

Mile 24-thebitterend: 10.35, 9.00, 10.40, 8.59 (.52)
.... eh Lap Pace is showing 9.20 and slowing. Reboot ? Yeah, right. BQ gone, motivation gone. Legs are starting to threaten to cramp. They are not amused and have already put in a call to the union.

After crossing the finish line, the legs began to cramp. I was really surprised at this, but I began to doubt that I could get out of the park under my own steam. But the medics were leaping on anyone who showed the slightest sign of stopping like lions separating the weak from the herd so I had to keep moving as Mrs P was waiting.

All in all, I did not love the race. The congestion (in fairness, other people did not find it so bad ), the constant hazards on the road (and I was in Wave 1), and the BS in Brooklyn soured me mood a bit. On the other hand I would not fault the organization. It's just too big.

So ... again after solid work, it is blown in the last miles. No excuses. It's really frustrating as coming off the LBI race I really though a BQ was a done deal. But it's the same problem. The only new wrinkle was the cramping. Definitely an electrolyte problem as post race a drink heavy on potassium had a miraculous impact. Surprising as I had take Cliff Bloks and it was not that warm.

On the wrong side of the half-century at this stage the window feels like it closing. So I'm not sure I am going to put much more effort into the marathon distance unless there is some prospect of improvement. Right now I can no longer even BQ despite moving up an AG

Over the winter I am going to try to up the pace of my long runs, and do some slow 26+ mile runs. I'm not sure how to evaluate if it working, but I don't think it's worth signing up for another marathon to repeat the same pattern, when the same effort focused elsewhere yields decent results. Fours years these suggestions are still relevant ! http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71116246&postcount=357

Dory Dory

What, when, and how much did you consume (hydration and nutrition) along the way?? And what was the air temp, was it cloudy, windy, spitting rain???

pgmcpq

Dory Dory wrote: »

What, when, and how much did you consume (hydration and nutrition) along the way?? And what was the air temp, was it cloudy, windy, spitting rain???

Weather was fine. Probably mid 60s at the end, no wind - much,much better conditions than last year when you ran.

The nutrition plan was to front load as far as possible, to avoid trying to force down gels post 18 when the system just was not interested, and rely instead on gatorade from that point on.


Breakfast : -5 hours: Oatmeal/Coffee
Staten Island -3 hrs Oatmeal bars + fig newtons
-1.5 hrs hours Gatorade pouch
-10mins Cliff Blok waiting at start line
Race: Ran with a small water bottle (though some was used to attempt to douse the idiots cutting across the course in Brooklyn ).
7 miles, hammer gel (Intended earlier but with the congestion it did not feel safe to handle the distraction )
16 miles - gel2. (from 12-16 taking a gel on the upslope of the bridges seemed unwise)
~17-19 gatorade (began alternating gatorade and water at stops from this point on).
~20 ? half a cliff blok.
Somwhere around here the stomach said ok that's enough, and I know not to push it. This was the reason for the front loading plan.

I think the nutrition was sufficient, I'd say it was better managed than on some of my previous races. The only think I would question was why I cramped despite the gatorade and cliff blocks. In the recovery bag was a gatorade chocolate drink with a ton of potassium. After drinking this the effect on the cramps was almost instant to my amazement. But I don't really think the cramps themselves effected my running - it was more of an issue post the finish line.

My thinking is that the issue is more basic endurance than nutrition ... and maybe even mental at this point. I actually felt decent until about 23 ... although the splits from the results suggest the fade actually started ealier than I think ... though it is hard to say given the course,

Dory Dory

I don't know....I still question your nutrition and hydration. I know it's tough for all of us, especially if you have stomach issues...but what you've listed just doesn't seem sufficient to me. However, we're all different, so what works for the goose may not work for the gander.

I had the same problem after Boston back in 2013 - calf cramping after I crossed the finish line. I was using Cliff Bloks too, but ecoli pointed out they are not a good source of electrolytes. I was not taking in enough Gatorade. The peeps in the medical tent gave me the option of being hooked up to an IV, or downing a bottle of Gatorade. I chose grape Gatorade.

But back to your nutrition - with your eating issues after 18 miles, you may want to look into trying out that custom nutrition. The gal who is helping me with my training uses their products in her IronMan races - she swears by them, and her tummy is pretty finicky. You also might want to give those Quick Discs a try. I'll send you a few containers if you'd like - just pm me your address.

And, I know you're disappointed in your performance here, but don't be. It was an experience for you - and one you will no doubt learn from. I don't believe a window is closing for you at all - I just think you need to get a few things ironed out. Enjoy running for the time being, and maybe don't count out a spring marathon with zero expectations and pressure. Do it for fun...and you might surprise yourself. Well done for all the work you've put in. And thanks for writing such an honest report. I always get a kick out of everything you write!!!

pgmcpq

First of all, thanks for the feedback. I've been pondering this .. in fact you've home right in some of my think and feedback I got elsewhere Mrs P thanks you too as she gets a break from hearing me kick this around :o.

Dory Dory wrote: »

I don't know....I still question your nutrition and hydration. I know it's tough for all of us, especially if you have stomach issues...but what you've listed just doesn't seem sufficient to me. However, we're all different, so what works for the goose may not work for the gander.

Interestingly, two other people who texted me post race also asked about nutrition so I cannot definitively rule it out. It is probably as much as I have ever taken. The plan going in was to take on nutrition early, but I didn't get to do this because of the congestion.

I usually do training runs (up to 22 miles) often with just water. I'd have an "emergency gel" tucked away but generally would not use it. So while I take on less that other, my feeling is that the nutrition I take should be sufficient.
E.g. I did the 18 mile race on half a baby food pouch, and some Gatorade in the last three miles.

Dory Dory wrote: »

I had the same problem after Boston back in 2013 - calf cramping after I crossed the finish line. I was using Cliff Bloks too, but ecoli pointed out they are not a good source of electrolytes. I was not taking in enough Gatorade. The peeps in the medical tent gave me the option of being hooked up to an IV, or downing a bottle of Gatorade. I chose grape Gatorade.

Interesting. Tbh, I don't think I've never looked at the actual contents of a Cliff Blok . I didn't take/focus on electrolytes as the condition were so mild. But I did notice a layer of salt on my skin post race. That's probably a fixable error.

Generally I have been told don't mix Gatorade with the gels as it is just too much to digest, so I wait until I'm done with gels before hitting the Garorade. I also worry about this stuff as the Gatorade is usually made from a mix and you can never predict the consistency from one water stop to another.

Dory Dory wrote: »

But back to your nutrition - with your eating issues after 18 miles, you may want to look into trying out that custom nutrition. The gal who is helping me with my training uses their products in her IronMan races - she swears by them, and her tummy is pretty finicky. You also might want to give those Quick Discs a try. I'll send you a few containers if you'd like - just pm me your address.

I looked into the QuickDisc stuff. It takes 5 discs to match the contents of one Hammer Gel :eek:. I'll get a pack and try if but that seems like it would require eating taking them over a long period of the race.

There is some other stuff called UCan that some of the guys here (including a woman trying to make the Olympic Marathon Trial) swear by.

It's clearly something I need to try. I think the only real way to test options out is by going the marathon distance in training (23+) and seeing how it goes. From this http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/fixing-the-fade
I have tried #1 and #2 (to some extent) ... so option #3 remains.

Dory Dory wrote: »

And, I know you're disappointed in your performance here, but don't be. It was an experience for you - and one you will no doubt learn from.

Yeah, but at the same time, continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results does not make much sense. At this point ( despite having lots of space time to train , two injury free years ) I have to admit I am now a 3.3x marathon runner, and there is no real satisfaction in that. At other distances I have managed to return to within touching distance of my old times and can be age competitive - at least locally.

Dory Dory wrote: »

I don't believe a window is closing for you at all - I just think you need to get a few things ironed out. Enjoy running for the time being, and maybe don't count out a spring marathon with zero expectations and pressure. Do it for fun...and you might surprise yourself. Well done for all the work you've put in. And thanks for writing such an honest report. I always get a kick out of everything you write!!!

Now it's time to focus on shorter stuff for a while. I cannot see myself signing up for a spring marathon unless something changes. I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve ... More likely, I will target a HM - oddly, I have not done that distance in years and it's in my "better" range.

Most immediately is the challenge of getting up and down the ladder to take down the Halloween decorations :eek::o:D

EDIT: Yikes, this got long.

Dory Dory

I absolutely love the HM distance, so go for it!! But, " 'better' range "?? Hmmm, one way to look at that could be: get your nutrition properly sorted and we might prove that statement wrong.

Send my regards to the lovely Mrs. P. Maybe all you needed was one of her atomic kisses at mile 20 or 22. Tell her next time she needs be waiting and puckered to give you that final boost to see you through to the finish line! Who needs food when you've got hot, steamy love?! :D

pgmcpq

Well ....so much for that. Skype IM this morning from my niece to tell me that she, her husband and brother are doing the Connemarathon and would I be up for it. Daft idea, but I am so so tempted.

Every time I am out they suck me back in.

Dory Dory

do it....do it....do it.... :):D

pgmcpq

Dory Dory wrote: »

do it....do it....do it.... :):D

Dory Dory

Dory devil.

Look, you only live once...so if you want to go and do Connemara with your niece, then why not?? What an incredible experience and joy it will be for you. Just go and enjoy it. Forget about everything else - just enjoy running with your family in your home country. Do if for the love of doing it - nothing more, nothing less. I promise you, you won't regret it. (as my dear mother would say, "this ain't no dress rehearsal!") Grab this fantastic opportunity!

Bez Bing

Have you ever done the NYC half? Its on paddy's weekend, absolutely great race.
After the central park loop it's gently down hill to the finish around wall st.

Like all NYRR races the early miles can be crowded but it opens up after a couple of miles.

I've signed up for the lottery so hopefully will get in.
Something to train for over the bleak, cold winter months.

pgmcpq

Bez Bing wrote: »

Have you ever done the NYC half? Its on paddy's weekend, absolutely great race.
After the central park loop it's gently down hill to the finish around wall st.

Like all NYRR races the early miles can be crowded but it opens up after a couple of miles.

I've signed up for the lottery so hopefully will get in.
Something to train for over the bleak, cold winter months.

Yeah, done it twice iirc. Great race, loved it, gave me my HM PB.
The key is to take Central Park (clockwise) handy, especially Harlem Hill (you know all about that !). Once over Harlem Hill, it is all downhill. The last three miles along the Westside Highway is on concrete which can be a shock to the legs.
Here's my race report (from 2o11 :eek:). http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71277684&postcount=365 AFAIK the course remains the same.

pgmcpq

Dory Dory wrote: »

Dory devil.

Look, you only live once...so if you want to go and do Connemara with your niece, then why not??

Well ... because it would means saying good bye to Boston for yet another year (I'm not going to BQ in Connemara), it means missing several local races that I really like, it's tough logistically, with no income it's a bit of an expense but if I do get a new job it is going to be tough to make the time, it's a struggle to train over winter (especially down at "training camp #2" where there are very few street lights - even in town), and no gym.

Other than that ... no reason at all .

Dory Dory wrote: »

What an incredible experience and joy it will be for you. Just go and enjoy it. Forget about everything else - just enjoy running with your family in your home country. Do if for the love of doing it - nothing more, nothing less. I promise you, you won't regret it. (as my dear mother would say, "this ain't no dress rehearsal!") Grab this fantastic opportunity!

Well... if you promise (pinky swear ?)...how can I say no .

We are leaning towards doing it, but need to figure out the logistics.

If we go I need to learn some lessons from NY.

Nutrition (again!)

This is the first question I have been asked by most people. It's true that nutrition did not follow the plan. It's also true that I did not feel any particular benefit from the gels .. in fact looking at the splits it made me wonder if the gels might be doing more harm than good. I do most of training runs (up to 22 miles) without gels without a problem. Looking the content of gets they contain this stuff call maltodextrin. I'm throwing out a question on this elsewhere http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=97671244#post97671244. Right now I am tossing around either going without gels ... or making my own, maybe based on raisins if I can handle the fiber side effects and figure out how to create something useable in a hotel room.

Electrolytes

One mistake for sure was failing to take on electrolytes during the race. As it was cool I did not really give this any thought. The cramps at the end suggest this was a mistake.

Training plan

Probably I did not get down to structured work early enough, and probably did not do enough MP miles (though the 18 mile race suggests that the endurance and speed should have been there). I'm going back to basics and digging up the P&D 18/70 plan again. I will extent this

- going to do one 26 mile run a month. This will allow me come to some conclusion about nutrition.

- need to focus on LT miles. This is my least favorite session and therefore almost certainly my weakest session.

Hills:

If I struggled on the NY course I really need to prep for the Connemara course. Thing is I did an almost weekly hilly run - so I though I was well set for hills ... but again the splits say different (GPS not available but results show 8.30 pace coming up the 59th bridge which is slower than I would have thought.).

Pace

Heading into NY, I got carried away. I need to be more realistic about pace.


Ok with that said...


This was my baaaaaaaaaaaaaaddd week. Beer, ice cream, chocolate ...I did it all.

Monday-Tuesday: Walked several. Legs were quite sore ... much of it the after effects of the cramping. I took a look at the Clif Blok and yes, they don't contain anymore sodium/potassium than an average gel.

Thursday: 4 miles recovery
Legs still sore

Friday : bike, 14 miles

Saturday: 6 miles walk/run

Sunday: 10 miles easy
Most of the group are preping for marathons in the next two weeks so it was very relaxed with breaks.
I must still be in shape as over dinner our guest's the consensus was that a) my marathon was "amazing" and b) I looked like ****. Result !

So ... assuming we are aiming for Connemara, 22 weeks to go.

pgmcpq

Another recovery week.
One of my Sunday group has pointed me towards the Hadd training approach. At first glance it looks like it help my fade problem if I am going to launch into another marathon training plan. There are a few here who have had good results with the approach, though I suspect it would take more than one training cycle. I also suspect I will need to adjust to incorporate some hill work, but there is enough time to do a cycle with Hadd (4-6 weeks) and bail if it definitely not working.

So ... with an eye on this, and with a view to continuing recovery, all runs this week were to be at a HR of <=120.

In each run I am ignoring HR for the first two miles until it becomes reliable.

Monday: 7+ miles, Pace: 9.08, HR: 119-120
Bang on HR.

Tuesday: 11+ miles, Pace: 8.55, HR: 118-124
Ok, so the HR got away a little during the middle miles
Wednesday: 7+ miles, Pace: 9.27, HR: 122-129
Hummm ...not sure why but somehow the HR defied all efforts to get it down. This was closer to Hadd sub-tempo. No idea what the problem was. Hardly the effect of Tuesday's run ?

Thursday: 5+ miles, Pace: 9.05, HR: 118-9, Route: Rolling (Creek)
My first

pgmcpq

^^^

My first

... I wonder what the rest of that sentence would have been . Not sure what happened there.

Friday was taken up with a five hour+ interview ( this seems to be standard length now ...don't they know I'm an old geezer and need my nap ?).

Saturday: 9 miles, .... way to fast !
Joined up with my old club mates again. Did not feel good at all on this run, and on the serious climb the HR was pushing the high 140s. A month ago I sailed up while holding a conversation... today was a struggle and I was dropped pretty early on. After rejoining a sub group the HR was still higher than I wanted or expected so I deliberately dropped off the pace and took the opportunity to bag the run early. Combination of interview fatigue and lack of sleep, I guess.

Sunday: 12 miles
Joined up with a guy tapering for the first 8 miles, so it was easy enough to keep the HR low (<120). After I left him I upped the HR to the 130 level to see roughly where 75% of HR put me in terms of pace. (8.20-30 roughly).
Intended to hit 15 miles but I had to call it at 12 in order to go cheer some of my usual Sunday group on at the local marathon (including the female winner).

Week: 51. Other than strange runs on Saturday and Wednesday, just about an ok week. I though my milage would end a little higher.

pgmcpq

Ok, I am offically calling this the start of the planning of Project Connemara.

I am going to try out Hadd's training method http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf with an eye on this attempt to translate to a plan http://www.trainingscience.net/?page_id=326 Basically I'm trying this out as I fit the pattern described exactly as my marathon times have always looked poor relative to my shorter distances, and now this tail off has become downright embarrassing.

I'm diving this into phases. The base building will be 8 weeks. I'm thinking that if by the end of eight weeks I hate this, or don't feel it working (and yes I know eight weeks is too short a time to judge), I can switch to a P&D 12 week program. It's also complicated because Mrs P wants us to do an 8k in a week and half, so this will disrupt things a bit.


Ok so here is the plan for the first 8 weeks.

Day|Plan|HR|Type
Mon | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | recovery/rest*** |
Tue | short warmup + <=10 mile | 140 | subtempo* |
Wed | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | recovery |
Thu | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 130 | easy |
Fri | short warmup + <=10 mi sub | 140 | subtempo*/or hills |
Sat | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | recovery |
Sun | 2-3 hrs easy | 125 | long** |


*subtempo:
These are runs at a defined HR, stopping at 10 miles, or once HR drift starts. Warmup will probably be two miles as it usually takes that long for the HRM to give a sensible response.
I'm going to set an absolute upper limit for pace for these runs ... Once I exceed this I'm going to call the subtempo miles and try to drop back to recovery.
Phase 1: HR in range 137-142. Pace (to detect drift) <7.55 ( arbitrary and conservative ... will adjust downwards )
Once every two weeks at minimum a hill run will be substituted. I'll try to keep the HR broadly in line.

**long:
Once a month a 24+miles run will be attempted inorder to test nutrition etc, etc. at

***rest: Once every two weeks there will a day off. There will always be a rest day following the extra long (24+ miles) run.

HR Ranges:
70% - 120 recovery
75% - 129 easy
80%-83% - 137-142 subtempo - step 1
82%-85% 141-146 subtempo - step 2
85%-88% 145-151 subtempo - step 3
87%-90% 149-154 subtempo - step 4

Hopefully weekly mileage will be in the 70+ miles range.

Starts tomorrow. 21 weeks ... how can I possibly fail . In eight weeks I'll look at the next step, but I am hoping not to have to think about this before that.

Myles Splitz

Looks like a very solid approach

pgmcpq wrote: »

**long:
Once a month a 24+miles run will be attempted inorder to test nutrition etc, etc. at

***rest: Once every two weeks there will a day off. There will always be a rest day following the extra long (24+ miles) run.

If you are going down the extra long route here I would make sure to incorporate good hip strengthening work (Myrtle, McHenry, KineticRevolution Challenge etc)

Good strong, fatigue resistant hips will help make sure you come through these long runs unscatted

Best of luck with the training

pgmcpq

Myles Splitz wrote: »

If you are going down the extra long route here I would make sure to incorporate good hip strengthening work (Myrtle, McHenry, KineticRevolution Challenge etc)

Good strong, fatigue resistant hips will help make sure you come through these long runs unscatted

Best of luck with the training

Cheers ...I am nervous about the extra long runs but I don't see any other way to experiment reliably with nutrition (yes, this could get messy ). I had to google some of these routines. Hate doing this stuff tbh, but you are right especially with my pre existing hip issues.

Btw, only now have I realized who your previous boards incarnation was. Nice to see you back !

pgmcpq

Monday 11/16: 2.5 easy walk/run with Mrs P
8 miles recovery pace. HR:119-122(121), Pace: 9.18
Having run at <120 easily last week this was a struggle. I had to continually slow to keep the HR from creeping up. Having run so easily last week I seem to be struggling slightly now.

Tuesday: 14 miles, w/9 @sub-tempo. HR 127-142
127(7.18), 139(7.23), 140(7.20), 141(7.14), 141(7.16), 142(7.18), 142(7.15), 141(7.25), 140(7.32)

This was my first attempt at this session. On paper it looked pretty easy - but as I contemplated what 140 feels like I realised that this would be no picnic. I needed to use this to establish a "reasonable" range for pace so that I could confidently identify HR drift. After the first few miles I decided that 7.30 was a conservative target - slower than that with HR steady would constitute drift and be time to end the subtempo miles.

Had to adjust this run as I found the spillway over the tow path was flooded. I ended up doing loops of a small river side park area (< 1 mile) which was a little tough mentally.
Well, 5 of the 9 miles exceeded the HR range, but only by 1 or 2 bpm and is still within the 80-83% of Max HR range, so probably ok. Drift began at mile 8, and confirmed at mile 9, so called it day. I had begun to think I might get to the magic 10 mark but by mile 6 I kinda knew the HR drift was coming. Was hoping to see the HR return to the 12x range as I dropped back to 9.xx miles on the jog back home but it never did fall below the mid 130s. So work to do.

pgmcpq

Wednesday: 3@ 11.17
~6@9.01 HR:119-122(121)
Started with a run/walk with Mrs P. Later on out for a recovery pace run. Mishap with the watch so the distance & time is an estimate.

Thursday: 7.5 @ HR:130-138(134)
After another six hour interview (unsuccessful again:mad:) I got back and out for this. With the HRM taking forever to settle down the pace ended up being way too fast. Target HR was <=130.

Friday: 10.5 @7.29 HR:140-142(141)

Second subtempo upto 10 mile session. Based on Tuesday, I wanted to try to keep my HR just below 140. However it got off to a rocky start. Perhaps my warmup was a bit short, but I was not sure I'd make it beyond 4/5 miles. The first four miles were into a stiff headwind (as was mile 10) so I was working a little harder than I wanted and the HR always ended a one or two beats over the target. It did get much easier when I had the wind at the back but the HR remained high. The pace fell off severely when I turned back into the wind on mile 10... but still some of this is cardiac drift.

7.20(136), 7.24(141), 7.25(141), 7.31(140), 7.21(142), 7.22(142), 7.17(142), 7.25(141), 7.16(142), 7.39(142)

pgmcpq

Forgot to "resst" the watch so Saturday/Sunday is approx as the runs are combined

Saturday: 7.5 miles @8.50(ish), HR: 118-124(121) (Galena)
Recon for a new route with rolling hills. A bit of a drive but a good prep for Connemara. Happy with this run, as despite the rolling terrain I was able to keep the HR around the target and see it recover from the climbs.

Sunday : 17 miles Pace: ~8.15 ish HR: 130 ish
I joined up with my usual Sunday crowd, and let this one get out of hand. Target was a HR of 125 ... was within margin of error for first 9 miles, then it slid into the 130s, then the mid 130s, the the high 130s . The pace varied from 8.1x to 7.49.
Even on the last three miles solo I was not able to recover back to the 120s again. Seriously blew the "squeeze the tube from the bottom" Hadd philosophy today. I ended attempting to squeeze the toothpaste back into the tube - a messy and doomed effort. Much as I like my Sunday group I think I need to ditch them for a while.


Week1:
Day|Plan |MaxHR |type |--|Time |Miles |HRRange(Avg)|Pace
Mon | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | walk/run | | 0.30 | 2.5+ | - | 10.30
| | | recovery | | 0.72 | 8 | 119-122(121) | 9.18
Tue | short warmup + <=10 mile | 140 | subtempo | | | 14(8 subtempo) |
Wed | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | run/walk | | 0.33 | 3 | |
| | | recovery | | 0.55 | 6 | 119-122(121) | 9.01
Thu | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 130 | easy | | | 7.5 | 130-138(134) |
Fri | short warmup + <=10 mi sub | 140 | subtempo | | | 10.5(9 subtempo) | 140-142(141) | 7.29
Sat | 1 x 60-75 or 2x40 | 120 | recovery | | 1.05 | 7.5+ | 118-124(121) | 8.50?
Sun | 2-3 hrs easy | 125 | long | | 2.25 | 17 | 124-139(130) | 8.15?
Total| | | | | | 74 | |


Couple of observations:

• Lost the plot complete in terms of HR on a couple of runs. Must do better
• Although the plan looks easy enough the sub tempo runs are hard enough, and the mileage involved is deceptively high. I broke the 10% rule by some distance this week. Hopefully since I was in the 70s before NY I can sustain this but I am going to be ultra cautious, and will probably dial it back it bit. Edit: 5 of the miles were run/walk with Mrs P at glacially slow pace so maybe should not really count against the total.

A mid week 8k race kind messes this coming week up a bit. This will not be a habit !

Just tucking this link away here for future reference (the profile on the GPS profile is no longer visible)
https://connect.garmin.com/page/activity/splits.faces?activityId=295136223&cid=1132902