Distance membership with extra benefits

gorfield

Hi Guys im hoping to get some feedback on distance membership that dosnt require much use of the actual home course.
Its for a project im working on and would love some feedback and ideas.

What would people like to get from their distance membership apart from a GUI handicap. Lets say you live 100miles from the club and you've paid for example 250e for your membership.
Think of it as a distance membership on steroids with added benefits on top of just a handicap.

Advice, ideas, critics all welcome.

Thanks

PARlance

What's the angle Gorfield?
Not looking for details, I'm just wondering if you're soley looking for a wish list of additional benefits for a distance membership, or are you looking for something that may benefit golf in general whilst giving a few side benefits to the distance member?


Here's what I initially thought, it's not a wish list solely for a distance member but it may benefit everyone:

It seems that the big thing a distance member misses is regular weekend competitions. They are restricted to opens, casual etc.
The GUI could introduce an affiliate program, where a distance member can select a 2nd club (a club in their locality, Club X)
As a distance member of Club Y, they are allowed to play a number of "members comps" throughout the year in Club X.
(That number has to be low so it doesn't affect "home clubs"... Otherwise everyone will go distance)
Let's say its an allowance to play 7 members comps. (No captains day etc)
The distance member gets to play in these 7 comps at a reduced green fee that goes to Club X to help them out.
For this, Club X has a say in the members HC. (A lot of people think distance members are bandits, not all are of course, but that's a perception out there and this may help to address that)
Club X could act as a "watchdog" of some sort. For the €100-200 they get each year from allowing a distance member play, club X has to watch out for multiple wins in team events etc and can cut if they notice bandit patterns)
I'm not easy with drawing the link between a bandit and a distant member, sorry if it offends, the link I feel is overstated but there is a big issue with the perception.

It could be that a distant member is obliged to play these 5,6,7 rounds per year at Club X.
That adresses the issue that some people have with a distance member handing in 3 cards and never setting foot in that club again. At least the 2nd club is some sort of a "home/handicap" club!

I'm sure there are plenty of holes in that, but just my initial thoughts

PARlance

Edit: Duplicate post.

Sandwlch

I think the answer is in your question - people don't want anything from their distance membership - other than a handicap at the cheapest price possible. If they could afford to join a non-distance club then they would do so, but join the distance one even though their play of it will be negligible to none. Offering more to someone who isnt going to really visit anyway seems a bit pointless.
Not sure where you are coming from with the 'bells and whistles'.

I would be against the increase in distance membership though - its really just a grab for cash by some clubs using the distance criteria to get their hands on whatever cash they can. Understandable effort, but to the overall detriment of the game. If I were GUI 'czar', to combat both that and banditry, I would stipulate the need to put in at least 6 cards per calender year for your handicap to be active outside your home club the following year.

peepee

Distance members in Ring Of Kerry get a Kerry Card. Entitles you to good reductions in green fees on any course in Kerry.

Getting a reduced rate on any holiday homes on the golf course would be a nice add on too.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

What's the angle Gorfield?
Not looking for details, I'm just wondering if you're soley looking for a wish list of additional benefits for a distance membership, or are you looking for something that may benefit golf in general whilst giving a few side benefits to the distance member?


Here's what I initially thought, it's not a wish list solely for a distance member but it may benefit everyone:

It seems that the big thing a distance member misses is regular weekend competitions. They are restricted to opens, casual etc.
The GUI could introduce an affiliate program, where a distance member can select a 2nd club (a club in their locality, Club X)
As a distance member of Club Y, they are allowed to play a number of "members comps" throughout the year in Club X.
(That number has to be low so it doesn't affect "home clubs"... Otherwise everyone will go distance)
Let's say its an allowance to play 7 members comps. (No captains day etc)
The distance member gets to play in these 7 comps at a reduced green fee that goes to Club X to help them out.
For this, Club X has a say in the members HC. (A lot of people think distance members are bandits, not all are of course, but that's a perception out there and this may help to address that)
Club X could act as a "watchdog" of some sort. For the €100-200 they get each year from allowing a distance member play, club X has to watch out for multiple wins in team events etc and can cut if they notice bandit patterns)
I'm not easy with drawing the link between a bandit and a distant member, sorry if it offends, the link I feel is overstated but there is a big issue with the perception.

It could be that a distant member is obliged to play these 5,6,7 rounds per year at Club X.
That adresses the issue that some people have with a distance member handing in 3 cards and never setting foot in that club again. At least the 2nd club is some sort of a "home/handicap" club!

I'm sure there are plenty of holes in that, but just my initial thoughts

Why on earth would anyone become a member of a local club if they can play members comps for a couple of hundred quid per year?

I could join the cheapest of the cheap distance clubs and then play in a luxury local course for peanuts...?

Distance membership should be restricted access. e.g. you should have grown up nearby etc, have a real reason to be a member (folks still live there etc) not just a system to purchase a GUI handicap.

Better selection of categories in clubs would remove the need for it IMO.

gorfield

PARlance wrote: »

What's the angle Gorfield?
Not looking for details, I'm just wondering if you're soley looking for a wish list of additional benefits for a distance membership, or are you looking for something that may benefit golf in general whilst giving a few side benefits to the distance member?


Here's what I initially thought, it's not a wish list solely for a distance member but it may benefit everyone:

It seems that the big thing a distance member misses is regular weekend competitions. They are restricted to opens, casual etc.
The GUI could introduce an affiliate program, where a distance member can select a 2nd club (a club in their locality, Club X)
As a distance member of Club Y, they are allowed to play a number of "members comps" throughout the year in Club X.
(That number has to be low so it doesn't affect "home clubs"... Otherwise everyone will go distance)
Let's say its an allowance to play 7 members comps. (No captains day etc)
The distance member gets to play in these 7 comps at a reduced green fee that goes to Club X to help them out.
For this, Club X has a say in the members HC. (A lot of people think distance members are bandits, not all are of course, but that's a perception out there and this may help to address that)
Club X could act as a "watchdog" of some sort. For the €100-200 they get each year from allowing a distance member play, club X has to watch out for multiple wins in team events etc and can cut if they notice bandit patterns)
I'm not easy with drawing the link between a bandit and a distant member, sorry if it offends, the link I feel is overstated but there is a big issue with the perception.

It could be that a distant member is obliged to play these 5,6,7 rounds per year at Club X.
That adresses the issue that some people have with a distance member handing in 3 cards and never setting foot in that club again. At least the 2nd club is some sort of a "home/handicap" club!

I'm sure there are plenty of holes in that, but just my initial thoughts

Fantastic reply and thanks for taking the time this is what I'm looking for, what would people like to gain from their distance membership on top of their gui handicap basically, if a club were offering distance membership with extra added bonuses/activity instead of basically taking money and posting out a gui card.

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone become a member of a local club if they can play members comps for a couple of hundred quid per year?

I addressed that area in my post as I can see it being a potential problem.
OP is looking for us to throw out some ideas, that's what I did.

Don't worry, I wasn't expecting the GUI to force open the gates of the Grange or for similar clubs that don't want or need to participate.

However, there are some courses that could do with the extra 100 or so quid p.a and may be happy to sign up as a participating club.

GreeBo wrote: »

I could join the cheapest of the cheap distance clubs and then play in a luxury local course for peanuts...?

Ya, that's what I suggested....
I mentioned that the comp rounds have to be limited to a small number of rounds and exclusion from main members events. As a suggestion. I said this because I believe it is of utmost importance that any suggestion shouldn't have a negative impact on the local course.

Maverick.ie

I am sure that Ballinlough treat everyone as a full member, they just reduce the subscription based on the distance your main residence is from the course

Ben1977

How about vouchers. Say you receive 10 vouchers, these can be used at other courses and you get the members guest rate? Of course it would be subject to clubs signing up to it.

Or say you nominate a club were you would play open comps in, this becomes your home course and you can play in the opens at the members rate. One club per person?

Barnaboy

GreeBo wrote: »

Better selection of categories in clubs would remove the need for it IMO.

Greebo, what do you mean by this comment? Not an attack, just not sure what point you are trying to make?

For Paws

It strikes me that combining GreeBo's idea of 'selection of categories' and the offers by various Clubs of 'distance membership' might work like this ;

The larger the Annual Membership Fee you pay, the smaller the Competition Fee.
eg; Member 'A' pays 2000 euro Annually & pays 5 euro per Competition played -
Member 'B' pays 1500 euro Annually & pays 30 euro per Competition played -
Member 'C' pays 1000 Annually & 60 per Competition.

The more you pay 'upfront' the less overall you pay
(working from a figure of 25 Comps played per year).

The obvious flaw is where Members would opt for the lowest Annual Fee and play only non-competition golf. The solution is where the 'prime' playing times are designated as 'competition only' and the Club rules are amended to make continuing on any basis other than 'full' Annual Fees conditional on a minimum number of Competitions played.

GreeBo

Barnaboy wrote: »

Greebo, what do you mean by this comment? Not an attack, just not sure what point you are trying to make?

distance used to be to allow people stay as members, after they had moved away, pretty much on the understanding that they would be real members and play when they were back.
It meant the club didt just lose a member and also that the person could maintain a handicap, but still be a member.

today its a mechanism to get a handicap without being a real member anywhere.

I think offering other membership categories would address the problem of people not being able/wanting to pay formembership in the clubs that they could realistically call home (location wise)

rather than offer someone cheap rounds at a local club as a perk for being a distance member somewhere else, why not just offer reduced playing rights at this local club for reduced fees?
5-day, 6-day, pavillion, etc.

sure this still might not be affordable for some for the club thats on your doorstep, but it should get you somewhere closer than 200 miles away in a place you have never set foot in.

GreeBo

For Paws wrote: »

It strikes me that combining GreeBo's idea of 'selection of categories' and the offers by various Clubs of 'distance membership' might work like this ;

The larger the Annual Membership Fee you pay, the smaller the Competition Fee.
eg; Member 'A' pays 2000 euro Annually & pays 5 euro per Competition played -
Member 'B' pays 1500 euro Annually & pays 30 euro per Competition played -
Member 'C' pays 1000 Annually & 60 per Competition.

The more you pay 'upfront' the less overall you pay
(working from a figure of 25 Comps played per year).

The obvious flaw is where Members would opt for the lowest Annual Fee and play only non-competition golf. The solution is where the 'prime' playing times are designated as 'competition only' and the Club rules are amended to make continuing on any basis other than 'full' Annual Fees conditional on a minimum number of Competitions played.

its not that much of a flaw to be honest.
the perfect member is one who doesnt play comps...frees up the timesheet for other full paying members...

m r c

Distance member = full member somewhere else??
That's my understanding of distance member, so your GUI is held at your home club.

The only reason the membership fee is reduced is because of the assumptionthat as a distance member you wouldn't be able to play as often as say a "local or regular" member.

So the benefits, being allowed play 7 days. Being allowed enter all comps apart from club medals and club majors.

Reduce the distance needed to qualify for distance status maybe 25-50 miles.

Allowed to play/compete for the club?

Off topic but I don't like the idea of cheap full membership via post. I'd like to see it stamped out. There's nothing wrong with local clubs competing on price for a given golfers business but when they are competing with a club on price from the other side of the country that has a couple thousand or more members with a postal GUI number isn't fair.

I have no issue with golf becoming more affordable but not this way, for anyone who's finding it hard to pay the annual sub but still wants to golf regularly (this number is growing) there needs to be something/way found to accommodate them that doesn't involve them dropping there sub and club in December only to be in the same fourball in January in the same clubs open. This might suit them but if it's allowed to continue the club eventually closes down.

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

Distance member = full member somewhere else??
That's my understanding of distance member, so your GUI is held at your home club.

The only reason the membership fee is reduced is because of the assumptionthat as a distance member you wouldn't be able to play as often as say a "local or regular" member.

So the benefits, being allowed play 7 days. Being allowed enter all comps apart from club medals and club majors.

Reduce the distance needed to qualify for distance status maybe 25-50 miles.

Allowed to play/compete for the club?

Off topic but I don't like the idea of cheap full membership via post. I'd like to see it stamped out. There's nothing wrong with local clubs competing on price for a given golfers business but when they are competing with a club on price from the other side of the country that has a couple thousand or more members with a postal GUI number isn't fair.

I have no issue with golf becoming more affordable but not this way, for anyone who's finding it hard to pay the annual sub but still wants to golf regularly (this number is growing) there needs to be something/way found to accommodate them that doesn't involve them dropping there sub and club in December only to be in the same fourball in January in the same clubs open. This might suit them but if it's allowed to continue the club eventually closes down.

not a full member in my club anyway, its a distinct category, typically reduced playing/voting and eligility rights.

For Paws

GreeBo wrote: »

its not that much of a flaw to be honest.
the perfect member is one who doesnt play comps...frees up the timesheet for other full paying members...

Yes, the same thought struck me

Smaller Competitions with better time slots.

m r c

GreeBo wrote: »

not a full member in my club anyway, its a distinct category, typically reduced playing/voting and eligility rights.

But still with a GUI no? Not like that over my way.

For Paws

As one who took up Membership in a Club for solely financial reasons (luckily I was able to return to my old Club after business improved) I think I'm able to see both sides of this particular argument.

The move towards 'under bidding' other Clubs is regrettable, but understandable.
Regulation of this area is a matter for the GUI. That's what we pay our GUI levies for.

Clubs offering cheap distance membership are a symptom of the problem (economic recession), not the cause. It may end up with Clubs closing (market forces ?) or it may end with Clubs offering 'enhanced' distance memberships ?

In any event it is about the 'sale' of GUI memberships.
The Clubs offering cheap membership are members of the GUI.
Anyone aware of the views of the GUI on this ?

slave1

There are a number if reasons for distance membership and what it brings, I get bored playing the same course over and over again, same first tee shot, same routine of shots to play, same greens etc etc, for me that does not lead to improvement in my game.
I was already a member of two local clubs before taking up distance membership this year, the huge financial benefit allowed me to travel and play many different courses (whilst my last club is still the club that I play most often via green fees).
In my mind if you are the member of a local club you are less likely to "play away" because there is the mindset of getting as much value as possible for your membership, the thought that "I've already paid my fees for the year so why play away at double cost", this is why for this year I went distance membership.
I've played 29 different courses this year and saw my handicap drop by 2.4, last year my handicap dropped by just 0.4 so from a "game" perspective I've improved by playing a greater variety of courses that demand more from me.
Financially, I'm in and around the same cost as last year, the savings in membership being balanced by the green fees I've paid.
I know there's a mentality you have to belong and support your club, I disagree, instead of supporting just the one club I've helped to support 29 clubs this year and had way more enjoyment exploring the country and some fantastic courses.
Finance wise I've kept a track and my average green fee for 2013 (including membership) is €12.15, kept low through playing with members, purchasing large amounts of web vouchers and reduced web green fee bookings, making myself available mid week and actually not that many open days really, just the 9.
Courses were (in order of play) Esker Hills, Moyvalley, Tullamore, Moate, Cregmore Park, Ballybunion Old, New Forest, Glasson, Dunmurry Springs, The Heritage, Portarlington, Knightsbrook, Mullingar, Mount Temple, County Longford, Beech Park, Citywest, Athlone, Ballykisteen, Portumna, Headfort New, Palmerstown Stud, Woodlands, Macreddin, Tulfarris, Ballinasloe, Galway Bay, Headfort Old, K-Club Smurfit.
I will most likely continue distance membership next year and try to play more new courses, we're blessed with golf courses so I'm going to do my best to play as many of them as possible, have some fun and most of all enjoy my golfing...

Mister Sifter

slave1 wrote: »

There are a number if reasons for distance membership and what it brings, I get bored playing the same course over and over again, same first tee shot, same routine of shots to play, same greens etc etc, for me that does not lead to improvement in my game.
I was already a member of two local clubs before taking up distance membership this year, the huge financial benefit allowed me to travel and play many different courses (whilst my last club is still the club that I play most often via green fees).
In my mind if you are the member of a local club you are less likely to "play away" because there is the mindset of getting as much value as possible for your membership, the thought that "I've already paid my fees for the year so why play away at double cost", this is why for this year I went distance membership.
I've played 29 different courses this year and saw my handicap drop by 2.4, last year my handicap dropped by just 0.4 so from a "game" perspective I've improved by playing a greater variety of courses that demand more from me.
Financially, I'm in and around the same cost as last year, the savings in membership being balanced by the green fees I've paid.
I know there's a mentality you have to belong and support your club, I disagree, instead of supporting just the one club I've helped to support 29 clubs this year and had way more enjoyment exploring the country and some fantastic courses.
Finance wise I've kept a track and my average green fee for 2013 (including membership) is €12.15, kept low through playing with members, purchasing large amounts of web vouchers and reduced web green fee bookings, making myself available mid week and actually not that many open days really, just the 9.
Courses were (in order of play) Esker Hills, Moyvalley, Tullamore, Moate, Cregmore Park, Ballybunion Old, New Forest, Glasson, Dunmurry Springs, The Heritage, Portarlington, Knightsbrook, Mullingar, Mount Temple, County Longford, Beech Park, Citywest, Athlone, Ballykisteen, Portumna, Headfort New, Palmerstown Stud, Woodlands, Macreddin, Tulfarris, Ballinasloe, Galway Bay, Headfort Old, K-Club Smurfit.
I will most likely continue distance membership next year and try to play more new courses, we're blessed with golf courses so I'm going to do my best to play as many of them as possible, have some fun and most of all enjoy my golfing...

Cool, lets all do that, see where it gets us.

GreeBo

slave1 wrote: »

There are a number if reasons for distance membership and what it brings, I get bored playing the same course over and over again, same first tee shot, same routine of shots to play, same greens etc etc, for me that does not lead to improvement in my game.
I was already a member of two local clubs before taking up distance membership this year, the huge financial benefit allowed me to travel and play many different courses (whilst my last club is still the club that I play most often via green fees).
In my mind if you are the member of a local club you are less likely to "play away" because there is the mindset of getting as much value as possible for your membership, the thought that "I've already paid my fees for the year so why play away at double cost", this is why for this year I went distance membership.
I've played 29 different courses this year and saw my handicap drop by 2.4, last year my handicap dropped by just 0.4 so from a "game" perspective I've improved by playing a greater variety of courses that demand more from me.
Financially, I'm in and around the same cost as last year, the savings in membership being balanced by the green fees I've paid.
I know there's a mentality you have to belong and support your club, I disagree, instead of supporting just the one club I've helped to support 29 clubs this year and had way more enjoyment exploring the country and some fantastic courses.
Finance wise I've kept a track and my average green fee for 2013 (including membership) is €12.15, kept low through playing with members, purchasing large amounts of web vouchers and reduced web green fee bookings, making myself available mid week and actually not that many open days really, just the 9.
Courses were (in order of play) Esker Hills, Moyvalley, Tullamore, Moate, Cregmore Park, Ballybunion Old, New Forest, Glasson, Dunmurry Springs, The Heritage, Portarlington, Knightsbrook, Mullingar, Mount Temple, County Longford, Beech Park, Citywest, Athlone, Ballykisteen, Portumna, Headfort New, Palmerstown Stud, Woodlands, Macreddin, Tulfarris, Ballinasloe, Galway Bay, Headfort Old, K-Club Smurfit.
I will most likely continue distance membership next year and try to play more new courses, we're blessed with golf courses so I'm going to do my best to play as many of them as possible, have some fun and most of all enjoy my golfing...

If you want to play other courses then feel free, but using a membership category thats not designed for that purpose is wrong imo.
If you cant afford to play various different courses while being a member of your preferred local course then thats just life Im afraid...

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

But still with a GUI no? Not like that over my way.

All membership categories in my club (barring social member) have a GUI membership and handicap associated. (inc pavillion, 5-day, distance, etc)

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

If you want to play other courses then feel free, but using a membership category thats not designed for that purpose is wrong imo.
If you cant afford to play various different courses while being a member of your preferred local course then thats just life Im afraid...

Greebo, maybe this category of membership was designed for a different purpose, but it has definitely evolved over the past few years. You have to remember not everyone who is taking out distance membership is doing so out of "buying a handicap", some don't have courses in their locality or the quality of courses in their locality is poor.

I do take your point however about different membership structures helping to deal with part of this problem. Many clubs are just not doing this though! Aswell 5 day memberships are all well and good but suit shift workers more than Mon-Fri workers, none of this is being taken into account.

I am considering a distance membership next year but purely on a financial basis, my club only has two options "Full membership" or "Student/Under 23 membership". Currently don't think I can justify the Full cost.

mike12

There are a good few pay and play options around Dublin that should be afforadable for most people. Bellewstown 25 mins from the Airport had a €250 pay and play deal think it is €15 at the weekend and €10 mid week. Something like that would be much better than sending €200 down to kerry every year.
Swords open, Corballis, Silogue are something similar. At least with those clubs you can play regular comps.
As Greenbo said Distance Membership was for members who had moved away and Country Membership used to be for people who were members of another course.
Now they are just ways of making easy money.
If i wasn't able to play 30+ times at my home course i would take up country membership at the club i was a member of when i was living at home but i would be able to play it 6/7 times at year at least, don't think i would ever join a club i can't play.
There could be an idea there for Dublin clubs to Offer 10 midweek Comps and a GUI card for a fee. Say Portmarnock links green fee is usually around €40 so would people pay €400 for a GUI card and 10 mid week comps.

GreeBo

mike12 wrote: »

There could be an idea there for Dublin clubs to Offer 10 midweek Comps and a GUI card for a fee. Say Portmarnock links green fee is usually around €40 so would people pay €400 for a GUI card and 10 mid week comps.

I dont think its just up to the clubs to decide when they can give a GUI card out though...

mike12

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think its just up to the clubs to decide when they can give a GUI card out though...

Would it not be the same as any limited membership like 5 day except this one you can only play Tuesdays.

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

If you want to play other courses then feel free, but using a membership category thats not designed for that purpose is wrong imo.

Morally wrong ?

GreeBo wrote: »

If you cant afford to play various different courses while being a member of your preferred local course then thats just life Im afraid...

True. But he has chosen a route which allows him to play various different courses and also keep his GUI. All within the rules. This is tax evasion, tax avoidance debate. He is doing nothing wrong unless you want to say it is morally wrong.

charlieIRL

mike12 wrote: »

There are a good few pay and play options around Dublin that should be afforadable for most people. Bellewstown 25 mins from the Airport had a €250 pay and play deal think it is €15 at the weekend and €10 mid week. Something like that would be much better than sending €200 down to kerry every year.

Moate GC had the pay and play membership a few years ago and it didn't work, think they called it associate membership at the time. Lads we paying the €200 (AFAIR) and were supposed to pay €5 per round after that - unfortunately without a permanent ranger on site lads were just showing up and going out without paying the €5. Think it only lasted a year.

Redzah

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think its just up to the clubs to decide when they can give a GUI card out though...

I don't think it would be a major obstacle to overcome from an administrative purpose between the club and GUI Greebo. I actually think its an excellent idea from Mike and goes back to a super distance membership idea which is the purpose of this thread (as opposed to the moaning that has gone on).

Expanding mikes idea for Gorfields (PH distance membership) project. Possibly €400 for 8 members competitions (excl majors), a GUI card a 2 burger with a pint meals (to promote use of the clubhouse and social aspect). Any casual play is at 60% of the market green fee (say subject to a max of 12 rounds making it 20 in total) and the minimum distance for this category is 50 miles from club to try combat abuse looking for cheap golf.

A summary of the financials based on the above would be;

€400 (8 comp rounds burgur and pint, GUI card)
€300 (if €25 is 60% of a €42 green fee bearing in mind green fee will fluctuate between summer and winter)

The distance member would get a lot in the above example for €700 (which they would only see as €400 plus extra) and the club would get 70% of an estimated fee for a full member of say €1,000. I don't think the above would offer enough to make the current full members downgrade to this membership as the 50 mile distance alone would eliminate many of them and the lack of the major local comps (captains etc) would be a deterrent.

charlieIRL

Redzah wrote: »

Expanding mikes idea for Gorfields (PH distance membership) project.

This topic has nothing to do with PH.