Correct me if Im wrong, but are Drico and POC past their best at this level?

Dbu

Ist time poster in Rugby
Having looked at the game Saturday i think that their days are numbered at this level.
2 outstanding servants but time to move on?
Thought Schmidt should have bitten the bullet and have appointed a younger captain, someone like OMahony:cool:
am i wrong? did they just have a bad day?

Gracelessly Tom

This is going to be a fun thread.....

sydthebeat

Past their best? Yes of course....

Still our best players in their positions? Yes of course to that too.

jamiedav2011

sydthebeat wrote: »

Past their best? Yes of course....

Still our best players in their positions? Yes of course to that too.

/End Thread

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

They're not the same age either. POC showed on the Lions tour and for Munster last season he's still capable of playing to the very best of his ability

BOD is a back and he's older so his decline is slightly more noticeable

POC is just going through some stick form. It's not as clear with BOD but hopefully it's the same thing

Gambas

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

They're not the same age either. POC showed on the Lions tour and for Munster last season he's still capable of playing to the very best of his ability

BOD is a back and he's older so his decline is slightly more noticeable

POC is just going through some stick form. It's not as clear with BOD but hopefully it's the same thing

BOD is at the stage of his career where he can only hit the high notes about once in every 4 games. We'll get a couple of more vintage performances between now and the end of the season but we're going to get even more duds. If there was an obvious challenger to his position then that might be a problem selection-wise but there isn't.

POC should be able to string a bit of form together though.

Rightwing

I'm not sure they should be starting, maybe bring them on with 25-30 mins to go.

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm not sure they should be starting, maybe bring them on with 25-30 mins to go.

offering this is useless unless you offer the alternative and argue why its better.......

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm not sure they should be starting, maybe bring them on with 25-30 mins to go.

So who would you start ahead of POC? And BOD for that matter

Not to mention how unsuitable BOD is to the 23 shirt

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

sydthebeat wrote: »

offering this is useless unless you offer the alternative and argue why its better.......

he won't

Dbu

I suppose to clarify my original post,
Should we now be looking at playing players that will be at the next World Cup, young guys that need experience at international level.
Thats why i found it surprising that POC was named captain when he probably wont be starting by the time that comes around


Should we just forget about the 6 nations and build for the future without the likes of BOD and POC?

Rightwing

sydthebeat wrote: »

offering this is useless unless you offer the alternative and argue why its better.......

I would have thought it self explanatory, but there's always 1 or 2. :rolleyes:

kippy

They are both past their best, Simple as that.
That was the scope of the question and that is the answer.

sullivlo

Dbu wrote: »

Ist time poster in Rugby
Having looked at the game Saturday i think that their days are numbered at this level.
2 outstanding servants but time to move on?
Thought Schmidt should have bitten the bullet and have appointed a younger captain, someone like OMahony:cool:
am i wrong? did they just have a bad day?

Have a look through some threads. You will find your question answered many times over at this stage.

And the captain q is a moot point which has been discussed to the death in other threads.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I would have thought it self explanatory, but there's always 1 or 2. :rolleyes:

It's not really, he asked you a very simple question that you can't seem to answer

Saying POC and BOD should be dropped is a big statement. One would think you could back that up with the players you would put in instead

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

I would have thought it self explanatory, but there's always 1 or 2. :rolleyes:

indulge me, because its certainly not obvious, to me anyway, why youd leave BOD and POC on the bench till the last 20 regardless of your phantom alternative....

Dbu

sullivlo wrote: »

Have a look through some threads. You will find your question answered many times over at this stage.

And the captain q is a moot point which has been discussed to the death in other threads.

Apologies sullivanlo i will do that in future before posting

Rightwing

sydthebeat wrote: »

indulge me, because its certainly not obvious, to me anyway, why youd leave BOD and POC on the bench till the last 20 regardless of your phantom alternative....

1. We'll be needing alternatives sooner or later.
2. They didn't do much v Aussies, and prob won't v ABs. (Not a criticism of them). So perhaps if a game is tight they should be used to try & close it out.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

1. We'll be needing alternatives sooner or later.
2. They didn't do much v Aussies, and prob won't v ABs. (Not a criticism of them). So perhaps if a game is tight they should be used to try & close it out.

I don't think you know what a criticism is

can you not name the alternatives? You said you would drop them now

Also, for the second time, BOD is totally unsuited to the 23 shirt

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

1. We'll be needing alternatives sooner or later.
2. They didn't do much v Aussies, and prob won't v ABs. (Not a criticism of them). So perhaps if a game is tight they should be used to try & close it out.

will you just argue your point please instead of making bland generic statements....

Rightwing

sydthebeat wrote: »

will you just argue your point please instead of making bland generic statements....

What area are you having difficulty with?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

What area are you having difficulty with?

he asked you to name the players you would put in instead and you can't

PhilipLuke

Dbu wrote: »

Ist time poster in Rugby
Having looked at the game Saturday i think that their days are numbered at this level.
2 outstanding servants but time to move on?
Thought Schmidt should have bitten the bullet and have appointed a younger captain, someone like OMahony:cool:
am i wrong? did they just have a bad day?

YOU ARE A MUPPET!!!!!!!!!
DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SPORT!!!!!!!
O DRISCOLL HAS BEEN INJURED AND IS NOT UP TO SPEED YET!!!!!

FORM IS TEMPORARY, CLASS IS PERMANENT AND BRIAN O DRISCOLL AND PAUL O CONNELL ARE WORLD CLASS PLAYERS

IF ANYONE ELSE SAYS O 'CONNELL AND O'DRISCOLL ARE FINISHED THEN YE HAVENT SEEN MUCH RUGBY IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS!!!!!!!

.ak

PhilipLuke wrote: »

YOU ARE A MUPPET!!!!!!!!!
DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SPORT!!!!!!!
O DRISCOLL HAS BEEN INJURED AND IS NOT UP TO SPEED YET!!!!!

FORM IS TEMPORARY, CLASS IS PERMANENT AND BRIAN O DRISCOLL AND PAUL O CONNELL ARE WORLD CLASS PLAYERS

IF ANYONE ELSE SAYS O 'CONNELL AND O'DRISCOLL ARE FINISHED THEN YE HAVENT SEEN MUCH RUGBY IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS!!!!!!!

Woah, somebody needs to relax on name calling... and the caps... and the abuse of the exclamation mark.

Be civil to your other posters, regardless if you disagree with them.

Dbu

PhilipLuke wrote: »

YOU ARE A MUPPET!!!!!!!!!
DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SPORT!!!!!!!
O DRISCOLL HAS BEEN INJURED AND IS NOT UP TO SPEED YET!!!!!

FORM IS TEMPORARY, CLASS IS PERMANENT AND BRIAN O DRISCOLL AND PAUL O CONNELL ARE WORLD CLASS PLAYERS

IF ANYONE ELSE SAYS O 'CONNELL AND O'DRISCOLL ARE FINISHED THEN YE HAVENT SEEN MUCH RUGBY IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS!!!!!!!

Many thanks for your kind post, much appreciated

Rightwing

BOD & POC are 2 supreme players.

What strikes me as a bit odd, football players and even GAA seem to be spent once they hit 32/33 mark.

Yet, rugby is a much tougher more physical game and players can go well into their mid 30's.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

BOD & POC are 2 supreme players.

What strikes me as a bit odd, football players and even GAA seem to be spent once they hit 32/33 mark.

Yet, rugby is a much tougher more physical game and players can go well into their mid 30's.

Why did you say to drop them so?

rrpc

Rightwing wrote: »

BOD & POC are 2 supreme players.

What strikes me as a bit odd, football players and even GAA seem to be spent once they hit 32/33 mark.

Yet, rugby is a much tougher more physical game and players can go well into their mid 30's.

I think it's the speed and acceleration that they lose that hurts their careers whereas most positions in rugby don't need that level of speed or acceleration. Losing a couple of yards on your opponent is death in soccer or GAA.

Rightwing

rrpc wrote: »

I think it's the speed and acceleration that they lose that hurts their careers whereas most positions in rugby don't need that level of speed or acceleration. Losing a couple of yards on your opponent is death in soccer or GAA.

That makes sense. Maybe wingers in rugby go that bit earlier so.

Kayless

Why is it that any time someone criticises or even toys with the idea of someone being drop the first question is who's the alternative?

For those of you being all pragmatic answer this if we don't try younger guys now how are we ever going to replace BOD and POC when they do hang up their boots. At the end of the day this is not the BOD show, don't get me wrong I think he should get one last shot at the AB but come the 2014 6 nations I do think we should move on.

Alternative, Cave, McFadden, Darcy, Olding (if he's not injured) Bowe (might be worth a shot)

Edit

Cave might be the best option for the 6 nations and summer tour as we would have Jackson/Marshall/Cave there who will are be familiar with each other

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Kayless wrote: »

Why is it that any time someone criticises or even toys with the idea of someone being drop the first question is who's the alternative?

For those of you being all pragmatic answer this if we don't try younger guys now how are we ever going to replace BOD and POC when they do hang up their boots. At the end of the day this is not the BOD show, don't get me wrong I think he should get one last shot at the AB but come the 2014 6 nations I do think we should move on.

Alternative, Cave, McFadden, Darcy, Olding (if he's not injured) Bowe (might be worth a shot)

that's fair enough, and I'd agree with trying Olding instead of BOD. But it's only fair that if you say to drop two of our most prevalent players that you should back up your opinion and say what players you would select instead, which rightwing won't do

LeinsterDub

Kayless wrote: »

Why is it that any time someone criticises or even toys with the idea of someone being drop the first question is who's the alternative?

Because it's like suggesting you have a heart transplant without a donor organ available.

Ok sure you're Kidneys maybe on the way out but replacing dodgy kidneys are better than no kidneys

Buer

Olding is the only one I'd like to see come in for BOD. Of the rest, they've had a chance to varying degrees and failed to do the job or, in D'Arcy's case, is getting on and can't hold onto his own place.

stephen_n

Henshaw despite his showing on Saturday is an option for 13 but there are no viable 13's for this weekend who would deserve the Jersey ahead of BOD even allowing for his decline.

Kayless

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because it's like suggesting you have a heart transplant without a donor organ available.

Ok sure you're Kidneys maybe on the way out but replacing dodgy kidneys are better than no kidneys

Interesting analogy that

But we do have options available, the question is are those options worse than BOD at this stage? If you take into account BOD injury record of late and the fact that he hasn't played much this season then fair enough we might be able to get by with him until someone like Payne becomes available but if the option we have are better then BOD because he has "lost it" (and I hate saying that) then it would be worth giving someone else a go at centre.

We could put Jackson at 10 Marshall at 12 and Cave at 13

thecomedian

To the OP, Bod is past his best.
Poc isn't.

akelly02

always thought of oconnell as the most overrated player we have. Until now, Heaslip has taken that over

Buer

thecomedian wrote: »

To the OP, Bod is past his best.
Poc isn't.

I would say they both definitely are. POC is just able to deliver top class performances still. However, he's certainly not the player he was 5 years ago though and his form this season is concerning. He has only had 6 matches this season but he has not performed near what he's capable yet. I can never remember a period of time where he has gone through such bland form before.

Seamo87

sydthebeat wrote: »

Past their best? Yes of course....

Still our best players in their positions? Yes of course to that too.

Thank you!:)

The 'analysis' of older players is appalling in this country. Just because a player is past his best doesn't mean he's not worth his place on the team.

Both Brian and Paul had poor games, very poor games the last day! But Spencer didn't do a huge amount better, nor did Toner. And bring it back the week before and Darcy and McCarthy both struggled. So the simple fact is that while both are past their best and played poor, their still our best options in both positions.

thecomedian

Buer wrote: »

I would say they both definitely are. POC is just able to deliver top class performances still. However, he's certainly not the player he was 5 years ago though and his form this season is concerning. He has only had 6 matches this season but he has not performed near what he's capable yet. I can never remember a period of time where he has gone through such bland form before.

I would say at the moment he isn't 100% yet.
Wasn't it 6 months ago he was playing great?

Buer

Spencer out.

blackdog1

Match fitness is our biggest problem. Top players have only played a handful of games due to injury.bod poc and ross have played sweet feck all rugby this season. Also our backs just cant stay fit. How many times are we losin backs to injury. Its getting ridiculous at this stage

Buer

thecomedian wrote: »

I would say at the moment he isn't 100% yet.
Wasn't it 6 months ago he was playing great?

It was but, as you say, that's 6 months ago. Hopefully he's just shaking off the rust but it normally doesn't take this long. He's 34 now. It would be entirely understandable if he was starting to have less impact.

OldRio

Spencer failing, yet again.

Dbu

Ok to the many points given

Whats is Joes main target then, 6 nations or 2015 WC?
Would it not be better to go with these young guys now rather than 6 months before the WC (and then finding out they are not up to international rugby).
Give them all a go in the upcoming 6 nations, who cares if we even get the wooden spoon and try and build a solid foundation of young talent for the WC?
As much as I admire BOD and POC for everything they have done and given to Ireland, if our realistic goal is to be a competitive team in England 2015, i feel we have to move on with the younger guys sooner rather than later .

LorMal

Dbu wrote: »

Ok to the many points given

Whats is Joes main target then, 6 nations or 2015 WC?
Would it not be better to go with these young guys now rather than 6 months before the WC (and then finding out they are not up to international rugby).
Give them all a go in the upcoming 6 nations, who cares if we even get the wooden spoon and try and build a solid foundation of young talent for the WC?
As much as I admire BOD and POC for everything they have done and given to Ireland, if our realistic goal is to be a competitive team in England 2015, i feel we have to move on with the younger guys sooner rather than later .

Unfortunately, Joe will not be given the 6nations to experiment. He will be judged based on how many wins he gets. Many pundits, and supporters, are totally focused on wins irrespective of anything else. Win and everyone is a hero, lose and everyone is a muppet. The difference can be a couple of points, one penalty maybe, it doesn't matter.
Of course we should move on from POC and BOD soon (happy to give them a go against the All Blacks as they have earned the right!). The problem is that they are not going to improve now, they will not be at WC 2015 and so we need to blood new players in their positions irrespective of the short term cost. We lionise players too much in Ireland when they are winning...and we are unbelievably critical when they are losing. For example, Sean O Brien has gone from being one of the the most sought after players in Europe to being a one dimensional battering ram in the space of one game. It's childish really.
I think the England approach of the last two years would be a good blueprint for us to follow. They have patiently built a new team from scratch and although they started out very wobbly, are now stringing together some very impressive performances. I think we may already be too late fro 2015, but if we stick to our normal hero worshiping approach, we will be left with a very shallow and inexperienced group going into the next World Cup.

Annabella1

Buer wrote: »

Olding is the only one I'd like to see come in for BOD. Of the rest, they've had a chance to varying degrees and failed to do the job or, in D'Arcy's case, is getting on and can't hold onto his own place.

Olding out for season with cruciate injury
Back to the drawing board

UnitedWeStand

Tin of worms open eh?

For O'Connell, defo not. He didn't do much wrong at all at the weekend, he collected all our own lineouts, didn't miss any tackles that I could see, and although didn't make great yards he didn't make a paucity either.

I think people are slamming him as there appeared to be a lack of leadership on the field, but I don't think it was a lack of leadership here, it was more a confusion among players as they try and ebb into a completely new system of play, whilst being together as a group for the first time in 7 months (no summer internations either to make it worse). Joe's removed the old regime so they can't exactly fall back on what they knew to do under Kidney, they could only try their best at implementing this new regime, and it failed purely because of the time pressures involved. Upon recollection, what happened against Australia was perhaps inevitable in the circumstances, irregardless of players or coaches or POC's ability to shout manic aggression at the team.

BOD is worrying in a sense, as I cringe if he has a bad game as I don't want to give his doubters a single reason to take away his title of being one of/the best centre of all time. Some people have a nasty habit of remembering the worst of people, and I'd hate his last few games in green to be ones where he shows his age and is then inevitably unceremoniously dumped. He's had very little gametime this season, and yes is still the best we have. He played lovely little pop passes, and made two linebreaks didn't he? He also however, got caught out of line for the first try. I think some people are ironically too harsh on him because they want his legacy to be intact, that is to get him off the international circuit before he deteriorates.

All in all, a bit of an overreaction all around.

Rightwing

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

Tin of worms open eh?

For O'Connell, defo not. He didn't do much wrong at all at the weekend, he collected all our own lineouts, didn't miss any tackles that I could see, and although didn't make great yards he didn't make a paucity either.

I think people are slamming him as there appeared to be a lack of leadership on the field, but I don't think it was a lack of leadership here, it was more a confusion among players as they try and ebb into a completely new system of play, whilst being together as a group for the first time in 7 months (no summer internations either to make it worse). Joe's removed the old regime so they can't exactly fall back on what they knew to do under Kidney, they could only try their best at implementing this new regime, and it failed purely because of the time pressures involved. Upon recollection, what happened against Australia was perhaps inevitable in the circumstances, irregardless of players or coaches or POC's ability to shout manic aggression at the team.

BOD is worrying in a sense, as I cringe if he has a bad game as I don't want to give his doubters a single reason to take away his title of being one of/the best centre of all time. Some people have a nasty habit of remembering the worst of people, and I'd hate his last few games in green to be ones where he shows his age and is then inevitably unceremoniously dumped. He's had very little gametime this season, and yes is still the best we have. He played lovely little pop passes, and made two linebreaks didn't he? He also however, got caught out of line for the first try. I think some people are ironically too harsh on him because they want his legacy to be intact, that is to get him off the international circuit before he deteriorates.

All in all, a bit of an overreaction all around.

I watch Munster a lot more than Leinster so I know POC's form a lot more than BOD, but I wouldn't mind seeing both being rested as opposed to dropped. If we had a massive game tomorrow, I'd have both in along with Sexton as the most valuable 3, but we must be looking for replacements, and it's against teams like the Aussies, you'll find out who can do it.

Phoeey

I think O' Driscoll at international level is way past his best. He's brilliant at Rabo/Heineken Cup level, but at international level he offers too little in offense. He's marked too easily and he can't even make a line break anymore, or when he does it's rare. He's has all the technical ability and the intelligence and the talent, he's still our best 13, he can still do excellent things but, individually, he's just no threat with ball in hand anymore running at defences, he doesn't have the pace or strength to commit defenders to him like a faster or stronger player would, in an organized defense you just have to shadow him. He can still do it, just not (as) effectively.

I'll have to see how he goes against Ben Smith on Sunday, he may get more luck against him, and maybe in Schmidt's backline, when it clicks he'll contribute more (which he will if it does click), but in my opinion he does not offer enough individually against better defences at international level.

The legend he is, and his other skills and his talent I think obscure people's judgement and flatter and deceive a bit.

Dbu wrote: »

Ok to the many points given

Whats is Joes main target then, 6 nations or 2015 WC?
Would it not be better to go with these young guys now rather than 6 months before the WC (and then finding out they are not up to international rugby).
Give them all a go in the upcoming 6 nations, who cares if we even get the wooden spoon and try and build a solid foundation of young talent for the WC?
As much as I admire BOD and POC for everything they have done and given to Ireland, if our realistic goal is to be a competitive team in England 2015, i feel we have to move on with the younger guys sooner rather than later .

We have 2 6 Nations before the World Cup, the young players will get plenty of time before the World Cup, and they'll get it in a competitive environment in the 6 Nations when we are competing to win the thing rather than "build" for a World Cup. Out of necessity, at the least, I think he'll have to play the young players, and they'll get plenty of time on Summer tours and Autumn Internationals. You "build" for World Cups by winning and competing to win 6 Nations.

sydthebeat

UnitedWeStand wrote: »

Tin of worms open eh?

For O'Connell, defo not. He didn't do much wrong at all at the weekend, he collected all our own lineouts, didn't miss any tackles that I could see, and although didn't make great yards he didn't make a paucity either.

no he didnt, he gathered 1
Toner took 3