Demolishing the Ghost Estates

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1117/487232-ghost-estate/

Dozens of unfinished housing estates are to be demolished next year.

According to today's Sunday Times, Housing Minister Jan O'Sullivan has drawn up a list of 40 ghost estates where site clearance will begin in 2014.

A spokesperson for the Minister says the Department of the Environment has been working with local authorities to identify estates which are no longer commercially viable.

Rather than let the market decide what is commercially viable they would rather restrict supply as they have been doing for years now. Love to hear peoples views on this.

Sounds like another stroke to me. What happens the loans for these

P_1

If they stick to knocking the ones built in the middle of nowhere then it's not the worst thing to do IMO, creates a bit of employment and gets rid of some hazardous spots

kjl

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1117/487232-ghost-estate/



Rather than let the market decide what is commercially viable they would rather restrict supply as they have been doing for years now. Love to hear peoples views on this.

Sounds like another stroke to me. What happens the loans for these

The irish taxpayer footed the bill. In fairness though, those houses will never sell anyway, most are unfinished and are located miles for anywhere.

The real question is how did they get the loans in the first place.

MonaPizza

kjl wrote: »

The irish taxpayer footed the bill. In fairness though, those houses will never sell anyway, most are unfinished and are located miles for anywhere.

The real question is how did they get the loans in the first place.

Why do people always cry about the "taxpayer"? As if no other incompetent tax-funded boondoggle ever occurred.

Napalm the ghost estates, I say. Level them and leave a big statue of a tree and a sign, stating "every onion, cabbage and carrot that grows here for the next 200 years is to be used as free soup!"

Scrap your whining about what the Irish "taxpayer" paid for. The taxpayer paid for the disaster called "The Gathering", the Irish taxpayer pays for loss-making enterprises such as Garda Suiochana, Hospitals, UCD, TCD, DCU, Irish Rail, HSE, CBS, etc., etc.
Abolish the lot....let's all suck twigs and huddle under a stolen tarp. God forbid the taxpayer didn't pay for it!

Overheal

Fools. Lease them out to filmmakers. You say ghost town I say Walking Dead visits Ireland

Lambsbread

If they are not "commercially viable", how did they get planning permission in the first place?

I better not say more....

godtabh

Lambsbread wrote: »

If they are not "commercially viable", how did they get planning permission in the first place?

I better not say more....

What's planning permission got to do with it? commercially viability has nothing to do with planning permission

Banjo String

Wrecking ball coming right up for Ireland.

hansfrei

Plenty of apartment blocks could be used to house criminals. Open prisons for housing estates?. Grand.


What should we do with ghost estates in the middle of nowhere?
Fill them with criminals, scumbags etc

Soft Falling Rain

It says it all about the condition of these estates (and the hazards within) when they won't even "donate" them to services that can use them to help people in need.

Gloomtastic!

godtabh wrote: »

What's planning permission got to do with it? commercially viability has nothing to do with planning permission

During the Celtic Tiger, when a developer put forward plans for houses crammed together with no back gardens or adequate parking, commercial viability could be used to justify it. I believe the Greens removed that little clause.

40 estates out of 1400 unfinished estates in the country going to be demolished. Must try harder me thinks.....

pickarooney

Overheal wrote: »

Fools. Lease them out to filmmakers. You say ghost town I say Walking Dead visits Ireland

paintball!

Lambsbread

godtabh wrote: »

What's planning permission got to do with it? commercially viability has nothing to do with planning permission

I read the same article in Irish Times that had more detail:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/forty-of-worst-ghost-estates-to-be-demolished-1.1598150

One thing that just struck me was this: "Most of the ghost estates targeted for demolition are not close to the main urban centres and are owned by small local developers."

It seems that there was no planning involved in these estates and that they were never going to succeed.

hfallada

In fairness if a developer started building a house but ran out of money in 2006/2007, you can hardly except his houses to still be suitable to finish and sell.

camel jockey

kjl wrote: »

The real question is how did they get the loans in the first place.

And the planning permission...

why should funding this take priority over health services:
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/children-with-spina-bifida-must-travel-for-care-29723161.html
sell then for a cent or let them rot

Teyla Emmagan

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

It says it all about the condition of these estates (and the hazards within) when they won't even "donate" them to services that can use them to help people in need.

Exactly. They are death traps most of them. Would cost a fortune to make them useful and then they're still in the middle of nowhere. Will be good to have this blight removed from the landscape.

camel jockey

Deleted User wrote: »

why should funding this take priority over health services:
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/children-with-spina-bifida-must-travel-for-care-29723161.html
sell then for a cent or let them rot

Who would buy them? Even for a cent? By buying them you take on responsibilities to secure the site etc.

camel jockey

camel jockey wrote: »

Who would buy them? Even for a cent? By buying them you take on responsibilities to secure the site etc.

People like me, people like the Irish making money abroad, people who have business sense to turn them into something else. People who don`t want a mortgage and would do something up cash as they wanted. People who can telecommute - this is already offered for alot of IT roles in the US, only a matter of time for it to roll out here.

You know what they did in other bubbles when they had an oversupply of 1 beds....they knocked walls and doubled them up to sell on as 2 beds and 3 and 4 beds etc.

Scortho

I don't know why they don't list them for auction. set a minimum reserve equal to the value of the land and if people are interested, let them bid on it.
If they were to get 100 k for each estate, thats cheaper than paying someone to demolish them. If no one is willing to buy any of them (there will be people willing to buy some), then demolish them.
Last year, this ghost estate sold for 235,000.
http://www.thejournal.ie/entire-kerry-housing-estate-sells-for-e235000-at-property-auction-512981-Jul2012/

camel jockey

Deleted User wrote: »

People like me, people like the Irish making money abroad, people who have business sense to turn them into something else. People who don`t want a mortgage and would do something up cash as they wanted.

You know what they did in other bubbles when they had an oversupply of 1 beds....they knocked walls and doubled them up to sell on as 2 beds and 3 and 4 beds etc.

:rolleyes: Why didn't you offer to buy them before it they are such a bargain and so attractive? You can do whatever you want with them but no one wants or needs them. Commercially unviable should give you a hint...

deandean

well I propose that the biggest ghost estate is saved for the finale of the next series of Love/Hate.

Imagine Nidge running up the street towards the camera (in slow motion) with that look of fear on his face, while behind them the pipe bomb lad is blowing up the houses one by one BOOM......BOOM......BOOM..... with glass, toilet bowls, the lot flying all around the place.

camel jockey

camel jockey wrote: »

:rolleyes: Why didn't you offer to buy them before it they are such a bargain and so attractive? You can do whatever you want with them but no one wants or needs them. Commercially unviable should give you a hint...

Because they aren`t for sale. NAMA mopped them all up. It was explicitly setup to put a floor under house prices. This demolition crap is the exact same thing.

K.Flyer

pickarooney wrote: »

paintball!

Pfft Nah!

AIRSOFT

cali_eire

Obviously on the surface, it will seem wasteful to bulldoze estates that are still considered "new" but if the list is limited to the ones that are unfinished and unviable to finish or fatal flawed due to construction defects that are not economically fixable then it very much makes sense.

If it includes estates that are usable except for some minor bits and pieces but that are geographically undesirable I would say that everything sells it's just a question at what price. If the state/NAMA can sell them and make a net gain on them or some how incorporate them into the social housing mix for people who are less location specific who can still be still serviced at the location then it should be looked at. Ireland isnt very big so nothing is really that remote.

the_syco

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

It says it all about the condition of these estates (and the hazards within) when they won't even "donate" them to services that can use them to help people in need.

Even if the houses were in "ready to move in" condition, the people in need would be more in need, in the middle of nowhere, near no shops, schools, or anything at all.

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

40 estates out of 1400 unfinished estates in the country going to be demolished. Must try harder me thinks.....

Unfinished doesn't mean unpopulated. There are many unfinished estates where people "bought off the plans" or just bought "bargains" in unfinished estates...!

K.Flyer

hfallada wrote: »

In fairness if a developer started building a house but ran out of money in 2006/2007, you can hardly except his houses to still be suitable to finish and sell.

I imagine that it would be difficult to find anyone willing to put their name down to say that fixtures such as first fix plumbing and electrics, and strutures are in sound condition after being exposed to weather conditions over the last seven or so years.
I would think that the cost involved to have every single part of a house and estate re-surveyed, checked, tested and re-certified would be huge and even then the properties may be un-insureable.

NTMK

cali_eire wrote: »

Obviously on the surface, it will seem wasteful to bulldoze estates that are still considered "new" but if the list is limited to the ones that are unfinished and unviable to finish or fatal flawed due to construction defects that are not economically fixable then it very much makes sense.

most of these estates are in terrible condition. the houses have gone 4/5 years without heating if they were finished and unfinished ones have been exposed to weather conditions for that amount of time

Damp will have destroyed most timber work and its not uncommon to see the roofs of what were sealed houses collapsed

efectively you would be left with 5 walls in these houses and the cost of removing and replacing the timber is probably more than bulldozing and starting from the foundations again

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

Rather than let the market decide what is commercially viable they would rather restrict supply as they have been doing for years now. Love to hear peoples views on this.

These are unfinished estates, they don't exist as "supply" because they're not suitable for people to move into.

Lambsbread wrote: »

It seems that there was no planning involved in these estates and that they were never going to succeed.

The planning involved was, "I will build houses and people will buy them and I will be rich". There were a lot of people and agencies asleep during the housing bubble. They heard, "We need houses" and so just let them be built. Developers also had a tendency to promise the sun, moon and stars and then not deliver on them.

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Exactly. They are death traps most of them. Would cost a fortune to make them useful and then they're still in the middle of nowhere. Will be good to have this blight removed from the landscape.

Indeed, I imagine in most if not all of the cases that are going to be bulldozed, this is cheaper than trying to bring them up to scratch.
Myself and plenty of others said back in 2009 when NAMA was created that if they don't start building these unfinished estates in five years, then they'll only be good enough for knocking down. Here we are, it's four years later and no work has been done, so it's time to build em or knock em.

The latter is undoubtedly cheaper, especially when you consider the miniscule prices these places would fetch.

Almost €90m of that has gone to Limerick City Council for the demolition of about 900 houses during the course of the regeneration programme to date.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/5-years-116m-and-not-a-house-built-179892.html#ixzz1jECKlTJa%20XX

Let them rot or sell them for a cent.

Citroen2cv

Why doesent someone make one into a tourist attraction, say that this village was attacked by the black and tans back in 73. Musrdered everyone, they did. The yanks would buy it.

Gatling

pickarooney wrote: »

paintball!

Go and feck


Airsoft all the way

paulbok

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1117/487232-ghost-estate/



Rather than let the market decide what is commercially viable they would rather restrict supply as they have been doing for years now. Love to hear peoples views on this.

Sounds like another stroke to me. What happens the loans for these

Good old RTE journalism there, the photo in the article is of an estate that is complete and has all bar 3 properties bought and occupied.
The owners wern't particurally happy the last time RTE used that photo for ghost estate stories.

Lord Trollington

Let them rot. Not only are we paying for the developers loans for these failed estates we now have to pay for the clearing of ghost estates.

donegal__road

If you approached the foreman in charge of knocking these houses with €10k and said you were interested in buying a house, I wonder would you be turned down?

ArmaniJeanss

donegal__road wrote: »

If you approached the foreman in charge of knocking these houses with €10k and said you were interested in buying a house, I wonder would you be turned down?

100% likely that the foreman would take your €10K alright, preferably in cash.

Mahogany Gaspipe

donegal__road wrote: »

If you approached the foreman in charge of knocking these houses with €10k and said you were interested in buying a house, I wonder would you be turned down?

I'm unsure whether or not you actually think that this could happen.

the_syco

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

I'm unsure whether or not you actually think that this could happen.

Although a house an unfinished estate would be bad, a house at the beginning of the estate near the main road could be a nice bargain. In saying that, it could be a "€10k for what house? There is no house" scenario... :pac:

kowloon

Overheal wrote: »

Fools. Lease them out to filmmakers. You say ghost town I say Walking Dead visits Ireland

Aren't we to be glad Seamus has connections in the IRA, those undead fairy folk are fierce bitey!

gobnaitolunacy

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Let them rot. Not only are we paying for the developers loans for these failed estates we now have to pay for the clearing of ghost estates.

I'd be inclined to agree, until I thought of this...http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/toddler-drowns-on-ghost-estate-outside-athlone-26824811.html

TMC99

Remeber the days - check out the nicely worded brochure under each picture.

I'm not suggesting that these are on the list to be knocked - in fact from the Irish Times most of those to be knocked are not completed with the majority at foundation level and some at 1st floor level.

keithclancy

TMC99 wrote: »

Remeber the days - check out the nicely worded brochure under each picture.

I'm not suggesting that these are on the list to be knocked - in fact from the Irish Times most of those to be knocked are not completed with the majority at foundation level and some at 1st floor level.

That's terrible.

Would be better for NAMA to look at which ones are good enough to rent and turn them into Social Housing

Gmol

Could the army or firefighters use them as training sites? Could also blow them up which would be cheaper.
I would like to buy an estate for a cent,

glass_onion

They could sell them at a loss,on a condition the buyer will then look after the repairs.Then of course could open a can of worms if a neighbor down the road paid a fortune for theirs during the boom. Besides some of the vacant houses were raided for the copper fittings for the scrap mental prices.

MonaPizza

Deleted User wrote: »

why should funding this take priority over health services:
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/children-with-spina-bifida-must-travel-for-care-29723161.html
sell then for a cent or let them rot

Can we assume there are no specialists in the North either forcing spina bifida sufferers there to travel to Britain?

MadsL

TMC99 wrote: »

Remeber the days - check out the nicely worded brochure under each picture.

OT: The next video of the hotel and his mate playing his own composition is great - worth a click...
http://zxcode.com/2011/05/the-front/

MadYaker

How long are the waiting lists for social housing these days? And here we are with all these empty houses owned by NAMA which is controlled by government, and we are going to knock them all down? Gotta love Ireland.

camel jockey

MadYaker wrote: »

How long are the waiting lists for social housing these days? And here we are with all these empty houses owned by NAMA which is controlled by government, and we are going to knock them all down? Gotta love Ireland.

We spend enough on Social Protection and accommodation costs as is.

Demolitions will not cost 'big money' - Environmental News | The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 19, 2013

the decision on whether to clear the sites would be taken by the relevant banks and developers in conjunction with the local authorities rather than her department.

and despite it costing 90 million to demolish 900 houses in Limerick, Noonan himself, states (from limerick funnily enough) that it will not cost the state “big money”
:eek:

The Dom

TheSpecials.youtube

Just woke up. Too tired to look for it.

keithclancy

camel jockey wrote: »

We spend enough on Social Protection and accommodation costs as is.

And rather than building new Social Housing just use the existing stuff that's already owned by the people of Ireland.

If they setup a management organisation and got the droves of unemployed carpenters, plumbers, bricklayers, electricians and plasterers doing something with their time rather than sitting on their backside all day (and having a massive break in employment history)

They could sell a portion of it off as affordable housing and recoup some of the cost and possibly get a better price than trying to sell of some run down hovel that's been completely gutted.

It would benefit everyone.
People on the Dole wouldn't be going mental sitting at home all day
They would be doing something they are good at until they can get a full time job.
They would be providing a service to the people of Ireland
They would be practicing their profession and keeping their skills up to date.
They would have a work history to put on their CV.
The tax payers of Ireland would get a better return on property that NAMA is trying to offload.

It wouldn't even have to be mandatory, I'm sure a person that's qualified as something in the building trade would jump at the chance to contribute to something which will benefit a fellow resident of the state.

At the very least it would be better than JobScam.