Proposal to reduce traffic lanes and remove parking on Liffey quays

beauf

bk wrote: »

Remove the cars and the buses will be quicker.....

I think busgate proved that.

the average time taken for a bus to travel from Parnell Square to Nassau Street has fallen by 50% from 20 minutes to 10 minutes”.

_Kaiser_

bk wrote: »

Remove the cars and the buses will be quicker.

The more people use buses, the more buses can be put on.

patrickbrophy18 I think you missed the point. Amsterdam has more extreme weather then Dublin (colder, snow and more rain). Yet 40% of people cycle to work everyday.

So the weather excuse for not cycling is just that, an excuse for being too lazy to get out and cycle.

Again, none of the preceding posts address the issues I raised earlier, but here's some more:

- Anti-social behaviour and junkies in the city centre (and the Red Line etc)

- DB can't even keep the passengers they have now who need(ed) them to get to work. But somehow they are going to attract new ones for socialising/shopping in town?

- DB is supposedly broke. Where are they getting these extra buses you speak of?

- I used DB for the best part of 30 years. It's NEVER been reliable, particularly pleasant and it's certainly not cheap or fast (thanks to meandering routes and far too many stops) - not even when there were less cars/alternatives about. Things have changed in the last week or so?

But ultimately, this isn't Amsterdam (and I lived there too for a few years as a kid). We don't have the infrastructure or social will to support these ideas.
Public transport/walking/cycling in Ireland is seen as options for those with no other choices. How are you going to entice those people (most of whom have been "burned" before) to give it another go?

You know what our biggest problem is?... WWII.
All these European cities/countries that we are compared to were bombed flat by both sides, meaning that when they were rebuilding post-war they could plan and implement these things properly literally from the ground up, unlike here where we try to shoehorn someone's latest pet project into a city that just isn't designed for it. Sure we can't even agree that we should build UP in Dublin, not out.

Trams, pedestrian walkways and all that are fine where you have a high urban density but after 7/8PM most of the city centre becomes very quiet - why, because most people are home in the suburbs (or beyond), and because most retail outlets close after 6PM. Don't forget DB think no-one could possibly need a bus after 11:30 at night!

"If you build it, they will come" just won't work unless all of the above is addressed FIRST.

markpb

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

"If you build it, they will come" just won't work unless all of the above is addressed FIRST.

I agree with most of your points and I'm confident they can be overcome but the last part is plain wrong. No city has or will ever build a perfect public transport system in one go and then throw open the doors. They're built over time, they change over time and hopefully they improve over time. You say we don't have the infrastructure for good public transport and that's true but no city did before they built it. If every city sat on their asses complaining that they don't have it, none of them would have it today.

Things are improving, albeit very slowly and they've improved wholesale since you used public transport last (at least, since you used it as a commuter). Luas is head and shoulders better than Dublin Bus in the areas that it serves and will benefit a lot from the joined lines and the extension to Grangegorman. Dublin Bus is improving in lots of different ways, most of them fixing the very problems that you mention. Leap, when it's completed, will help a lot, especially for occasional bus customers. Merging and making public all the real time data, like the NTA have done in their websites and apps, will make it easier for people to plan and be confident about their journey.

The last thing is that Dublin always changes. The people change. People like you who were burned by DB won't be around forever. New people will move to Dublin from outside the city and outside the country. They'll try it and if it's usable, they'll stick with it. They won't know or care that it used to be rubbish. That's the beauty of living in a city.

mackerski

bk wrote: »

Remove the cars and the buses will be quicker.

Not clear, particularly if you reduce the number of lanes. Also, reclaiming the front of the Custom House for pedestrians feels like a bad payoff for the traffic downside of forcing all traffic through Beresford Place. This is an area of town already plagued by drug addicts - remove the steady stream of cars and I'm not sure I'd feel good about being there after dark.

The idea of finding room for cycle ways (presumably 2-way) along each quay is a nice one, though, that could add greatly to bike mobility in the city centre.

mrbike

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You know what our biggest problem is?... WWII.
All these European cities/countries that we are compared to were bombed flat by both sides, meaning that when they were rebuilding post-war they could plan and implement these things properly literally from the ground up

Neither Amsterdam or Copenhagen were significanly bombed during WWII. After the bomding of Rotterdam, the Dutch surrendered.

You can read about how these cites switched from auto-centric design to livable streets here : http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/04/why-streets-copenhagen-and-amsterdam-look-so-different-ours/1849/

Irish city planners took the opposite route. In the 80's rows of Georgian houses were torn down along Clanbrassil Street, Dublin to make way for a 6 lane dual carriageway. There were plans to tear down the buildings along the north and south quays to widen the dual carriageways there. There were also plans to pave over the canals to make dual carriageways...

Thankfully the latter two never came to pass.

bk

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But ultimately, this isn't Amsterdam (and I lived there too for a few years as a kid). We don't have the infrastructure or social will to support these ideas.

I'm sorry but this is one of the most negative attitudes I've ever read!

Of course if everyone had your attitude, you would be right.

It is an attitude like this that had people saying that Dublin Bikes would never work, that they would all end up stolen and dumped in the river...... Instead it turned out to be the most successful bike scheme of it's type in the world!

It is an attitude like this that said the Luas wouldn't work.

Yet the truth is public transport has improved radically over the last 10 years with Luas, RTPI, Dublin Bikes, etc.

Yes of course there is still lots to do, I'm one of Dublin Buses biggest critics, but having seen projects like Dublin Bikes and the attitude of young people today to cycling, city living, public transport today, I'm now convinced that there isn't any reason why we can't have Amsterdam right here in Dublin.

I think what you are showing is the generational and cultural divide that exists here in Ireland. You have what I call "old Ireland" older people and in particular the political class who are stuck in the mindset of awful cities and miserably sitting in your car. Then you have what I call the "young Ireland", the 20 and 30 somethings, very well educated, working in the likes of Google, Facebook, etc. from other countries like Brazil, Spain, Poland, etc. as well as Irish, who are happy to live in apartments in the city and cycle to work, etc. and who have very different expectations and needs.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Public transport/walking/cycling in Ireland is seen as options for those with no other choices. How are you going to entice those people (most of whom have been "burned" before) to give it another go?

I have to strongly disagree with this point, cycling is no longer seen as the only option for the poor, quiet the opposite in fact. Just look around the streets of Dublin to see all the €1000+ bikes being cycled around.

I work in a major US multinational IT company where almost everyone gets paid VERY well, yet one of the biggest problems we have is lack of big parking spaces outside the building!!!

It is very cool and hip to be cycling today.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Trams, pedestrian walkways and all that are fine where you have a high urban density but after 7/8PM most of the city centre becomes very quiet - why, because most people are home in the suburbs (or beyond), and because most retail outlets close after 6PM. Don't forget DB think no-one could possibly need a bus after 11:30 at night!

You clearly haven't been out in Dublin City Center at night recently!!

I'm out in Dublin City Center most nights and it is VERY busy most nights. Sure obviously it is quieter then day time, but Dublins streets are definitely very busy at night with people going to pubs, clubs, cinema, theatre, music gigs, restaurants, etc.

Let me directly address your questions:

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- Anti-social behaviour and junkies in the city centre (and the Red Line etc)

It is a problem, but not a massive problem. I use public transport every day and I've very rarely seen anti-social behaviour. I can think of only two incidents in 12 years living in Dublin.

However I believe the solution is a dedicated transport police service, like they have in the UK. With the powers of arrest. Have then financed by the transport companies by getting rid of the relatively useless ticket checkers and security guys and replace them with these transport police.

I'm also convinced that a lot of policing is psychological. Do what they do in the US, have them identify and specifically target the trouble makers. Catch them without a ticket and cuff them and keep them waiting on the platform for a police van to pick them up. Have the police van take it's time getting back to the station.

Even if they get off quickly with no charge, the scumbags won't like having their day wasted and their drug deals interrupted and they will quickly get the idea.

Junkies in the city is a wider issue, to fix this we need to be tougher on such junkies.

We need tougher anti-social and anti-begging laws and actually have them enforced.

We need to move methadone clinics of the city and closer to where they actually live.

We need to get rid of free travel for such people.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- DB can't even keep the passengers they have now who need(ed) them to get to work. But somehow they are going to attract new ones for socialising/shopping in town?

Again the stats have clearly shown that public transport (including luas, dart), walking and cycling have already succeeded in doing precisely this. More people are entering the city today then ever before and they are doing it by public transport, walking and cycling which are all up. Only driving into the city is down.

Yes Dublin Bus is slightly down, but that isn't surprising due to the Luas replacing many Dublin Bus trips.

How we attract more people onto Dublin Bus is by removing cars from our city center. You remove traffic and DB's journey times improve significantly, making it more attractive for people.

This has shown to work not only across Europe, but the College Green has shown it to even work here with significant reductions in bus journey times.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- DB is supposedly broke. Where are they getting these extra buses you speak of?

If you reduce journey times by removing traffic, then the same buses and drivers can make more journeys, thus increasing utility.

The NTA actually buys the buses for DB, buying buses has never been the issue. The issue is more the relatively high cost structures of DB and I agree that this needs to be fixed. And I believe it can and will be fixed.

Also again, if you reduce journey times due to reducing traffic in the city center you can use the existing bus and drivers for more trips. But the reduced journey times will also lead to more people using DB, thus more revenue and increasing utilisation of the existing fleet.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- I used DB for the best part of 30 years. It's NEVER been reliable, particularly pleasant and it's certainly not cheap or fast (thanks to meandering routes and far too many stops) - not even when there were less cars/alternatives about. Things have changed in the last week or so?

I use DB almost every day and I find it pretty reliable and fast, certainly faster then getting into town by car.

I think you have an an image of it from 30 years ago. While DB still has a long way to go, it has vastly improved since then and is a pretty clean, safe and relatively fast service now IME.

Again, if we remove cars from the city center it will become even faster and more reliable and would be the most important step in turning DB into a very good service.

Muahahaha

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

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I believe the recent rain storms and flash floods along with frequent heavy downpours beg to differ. There have been numerous times in the last year where I've been in town where I get caught in heavy rain and I end up soaked within minutes. As such, I remain skeptical that any moderate pedestrianization schemes will improve the situation for me. While many people may argue that I could be equipped with rain gear, I'd look pretty daft in it if there were clear skies earlier on in the day. The unpredictable weather makes this type of situation very hard to plan in advance.

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Codswallop, I ride a motorbike on a 20-25 minute commute to the city center 5-6 days per week throughout the year and I estimate that I get drenched soaking wet somewhere between 8-10 times a year. That is just bad luck of having a torrential downpour begin at some stage during my commute. There are days when there is a lot of drizzle but I am never out in it long enough for it to get through the gear I'm wearing. And if it does turn torrential I have a pair of light waterproof trousers in my bag that squeeze up to about the size of a bottle of Coke.
Rain in Ireland really isn't as inconvenient as some people like to make out IMO. I'd much prefer take a few soakings per year and have a 25 minute commute through empty bus lanes than stay dry in a car and have a 50 minute commute in traffic and then the hassle and cost of parking it on top of that. I save myself 50 minutes per day by biking it, over a year it adds up to 208 hours not spent sitting in traffic, it's more than four whole weeks at work so I'll gladly suffer the odd bit of rain over grinding gears and brakes to end up stressed like the hundreds of car owners I overtake every day.

cgcsb

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- DB is supposedly broke. Where are they getting these extra buses you speak of?

the state may invest in capital infrastructure including buses separate from Dublin Bus's current expenditure budget, which will be close to profitable if the recently discussed cost saving measures are implemented

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

- I used DB for the best part of 30 years. It's NEVER been reliable, particularly pleasant and it's certainly not cheap or fast (thanks to meandering routes and far too many stops) - not even when there were less cars/alternatives about. Things have changed in the last week or so?

In fairness to DB, they have plenty of direct routes along arterial roads. It's pricey but on QBC routes is quiet fast and certainly faster than the car alternatives.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But ultimately, this isn't Amsterdam (and I lived there too for a few years as a kid). We don't have the infrastructure or social will to support these ideas.
Public transport/walking/cycling in Ireland is seen as options for those with no other choices. How are you going to entice those people (most of whom have been "burned" before) to give it another go?

I disagree with regard to suburb to city centre trips during peak hours. Buses are faster, in general, and people recognise this.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You know what our biggest problem is?... WWII.
All these European cities/countries that we are compared to were bombed flat by both sides, meaning that when they were rebuilding post-war they could plan and implement these things properly literally from the ground up, unlike here where we try to shoehorn someone's latest pet project into a city that just isn't designed for it.

That's simply not true, take the Amsterdam example, same old 17/18/19th century street plan even after WW11. Same in Paris. In fact only German Cities seen their street pattern significantly altered after WW2. And even then their Ubahn systems remained essentially the same.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Trams, pedestrian walkways and all that are fine where you have a high urban density but after 7/8PM most of the city centre becomes very quiet - why, because most people are home in the suburbs (or beyond), and because most retail outlets close after 6PM.

Big retailers stay open to 7 and as late as 9 or 10 on Thursdays and Saturdays. In Germany everywhere closes at 6 religiously, even convenience and grocery stores, and few places remain open on Sunday at all. Despite this they maintain good public transport.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Don't forget DB think no-one could possibly need a bus after 11:30 at night!

Agreed, there's no need to end the service so early, the nitelink is entirely insufficient and only runs two nights a week. Also the fare does not need to be a shambolic €6 a pop, but of course if there were normal fares on nitelink services the taxis would have some sort of strike.

TheBandicoot

Muahahaha wrote: »

have a 25 minute commute through empty bus lanes

Are motorbikes allowed in bus lanes? I don't think they are.

rameire

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Are motorbikes allowed in bus lanes? I don't think they are.

legally they are not allowed,
but most Gardai look the other way.

Muahahaha

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Are motorbikes allowed in bus lanes? I don't think they are.

Legally they're not though bikers have been calling for it for years now. It doesn't really matter because the Gardai themselves realise that the safest place for them to be is in a bus lane. Provided you're not driving dangerously or speeding they leave you alone. In fact on my commute they have a favourite spot to set up their speed guns and I've often gone right by them in the bus lane. As long as I'm not speeding they don't bother me. If they come up behind me in a bus lane I move to the side to let them through, again they don't pull me.

The ability to use the bus lanes is probably 50% of the reason I ride a motorbike, for me it makes commuting a joy rather than a hassle.

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/car-lanes-to-be-given-to-walkers-and-cyclists-on-dublin-s-quays-1.1589118

DCC better not reject the plans!

(I know there was a threat along the same lines recently but can't find it)

The authors have said its not a plan, but it's there to kick start change.

This new vision is not official (it's separate to planning the NTA and DCC are doing) and it's fairly poor for cyclists and buses...

http://irishcycle.com/2013/11/13/cycling-should-be-centre-stage-when-kick-starting-change-along-the-liffey/

monument

Council transport SPC meeting on at 3pm -- you can watch it on the city council webcast service.