Roma mother not allowed to take here baby back from HSE

MonsterCookie

Roma mother gave her child in to care and now wants the little one back. Very sad for the kid.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1108/485556-roma-baby-court/

Karl Stein

MonsterCookie wrote: »

Roma mother gave her child in to care and now wants the little one back. Very sad for the kid.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1108/485556-roma-baby-court/

What would be sad is if the child grew up denied her Mother.

Aru

Did you read the same article as I did? How is this a bad situation for the child???

Jezek

I don't know what anyone can say about this case...sad and tough for all concerned!

Mint Aero

Court made the right decision.

ceadaoin.

She gave the child into care because she was unable to look after her properly. She was homeless and not feeding the child properly or attending to her needs. The HSE isn't a babysitting service that you can leave kids with and get them back willy nilly.

Kids need stability and presumably a safe and stable environment is being provided by the HSE for the time being. In my opinion, it is in the best interests of the child for the mother to prove that she can now provide adequate care for her child before getting her back.

The fact that she is Roma has nothing to do with it. I'm sure the same ruling would be made if it was an Irish woman.

A sad situation would be a child returned to a mother who isn't able or willing to care for her adequately.

meoklmrk91

This is a really sad case, for everyone involved, there is no situation where a child being taken permanently from its mother isn't. However in this case I think it's probably best for the child to stay in the care of the HSE. The mother raised €100 by begging ffs, she has no income to provide for her.

wolfpawnat

It is a complicated one. She and her baby should be together, but is she able to now look after it. It would be worse if she got the little one back only for it to suffer more. I would not like to have been that judge making such a call.

shruikan2553

Maybe she can have the child back when her primary income isnt begging? Hardly sounds like a person who can care for a child.

Aru

The Mother will still be able to have contact with the child through the foster system so the child wont be deprived of a relationship with its mother... just deprived a life of poverty and instability until her mother can prove she can adequately care for his/her needs. If the mother was not Roma this story likely wouldn't have made the news.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Get a job and a stable life before bringing a child into the world.

Don't stay with a partner who's abusive towards your child.

Don't get pregnant if you can't even afford solid food.

Don't drop your baby in the nearest Garda station and come back looking for it when it suits.

Parenting lessons 101 brought to you by lexieonrale

wolfpawnat

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Get a job and a stable life before bringing a child into the world.

Don't stay with a partner who's abusive towards your child.

Don't get pregnant if you can't even afford solid food.

Don't drop your baby in the nearest Garda station and come back looking for it when it suits.

Parenting lessons 101 brought to you by lexieonrale

Doesn't always happen like that sadly.

TheBoffin

Harsh but needs saying.

The state need to stop the hero act in situations such as this. The mother gave up the child voluntarily and now wants the child released on the bases that they return home to their own country.

HSE should be assisting the mother to go home with the child, get them both out of the state and out of the HSE's responsibility instead of flogging a cash horse in childcare, court fees etc. It then becomes the responsibility of the authorities in the home country to protect the child

Jester252

The courts made the right decision. Just because you gave birth doesn't give you a right to the child. You have a responsibility to look after the child. If you can't do that and give the child into care you should have to prove you're a responsible parent before you look for it back.

Karl Stein

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Get a job and a stable life before bringing a child into the world.

How do you enforce this?

Tell me how you would enforce this. Don't be shy - own your words and opinions.

wolfpawnat

Carlos Roca wrote: »

How do you enforce this?

Tell me how you would enforce this.

What happens if you lose said job?

Karl Stein

wolfpawnat wrote: »

What happens if you lose said job?

Yep. What's worse though is that such an idea as controlling the reproductive functions of other human beings is somehow a legitimate argument.

It's total and absolute tyranny if not second degree genocide.

Untouchable Peasant

Say what you like about the Roma, but they do a cracking snack box.

TheBoffin

Nobody seems to be too concerned that there is a woman who did what she believed best for her child at the time and is now begging on the streets instead of returning home with her child and starting fresh possibly with the support of her family.

You wouldn't need to look too far to see Irish kids neglected, starving and stealing food.

CramCycle

TheBoffin wrote: »

HSE should be assisting the mother to go home with the child, get them both out of the state and out of the HSE's responsibility instead of flogging a cash horse in childcare, court fees etc. It then becomes the responsibility of the authorities in the home country to protect the child

And when the mother can prove there is safety and support for the child there, that will happen. Until then the judge/state made the right call.
Hands up, who actually read and understood the judges decision, it would appear a few posters may not have.

TheBoffin

And when the mother can prove there is safety and support for the child there, that will happen.

And what concern is that of the Irish State?

The Irish Sate did its job, It offered the care and protection of the state at the mothers request, the mother now made the right decision to go home, the state should just accept that the matter should be no further concern once the mother leaves the country with the child instead of holding on to a good news story to dim the light on the gigantic f*ck up over the last 2 weeks involving the same ethnic group

Guy:Incognito

Whats she going to romania for? Has no one told her shes not romanian, shes roma?

Guy:Incognito

Carlos Roca wrote: »

Yep. What's worse though is that such an idea as controlling the reproductive functions of other human beings is somehow a legitimate argument.

It's total and absolute tyranny if not second degree genocide.

Is there some sort of award for hysterical replies? The poster said get a job before you have kids as a suggestion to people wanting to be parents and youve turned that in to thw government controlling how and when people have kods and throwing about ridiculous words like genocide. Serioisly. Calm yourself.

CramCycle

TheBoffin wrote: »

And what concern is that of the Irish State?

The child is not old enough to recognise or remedy the situation. In these cases it falls to society/the state to step in and represent the rights of the child and protect it. The state does this on our behalf, if you think that leaving a child in a situation where the mother is apparently unable to provide the bare nutrition to support the child's health, tthenwell, I pity you.
If cost to the state is your issue, there are far bigger and less morally disturbing fish to fry.

CramCycle

I see you edited your post. The only fault with the state is that the issue would never have been noticed if the mother had not been decent and humane enough to realise the problems for the child. But that's not their fault, the important thing is their response once notified.
The mother may feel she is in a better position but based only on the article, she maybe under some illusion as to the minimum standard of care required for a child. 100 euro with an unknown income is too much of a risk in terms of ability of the mother to provide.

The mother is not the concern of the state in this matter, the child is as no one else capable of looking after the child has stepped forward.

TheBoffin

The child is not old enough to recognise or remedy the situation. In these cases it falls to society/the state to step in and represent the rights of the child and protect it. The state does this on our behalf, if you think that leaving a child in a situation where the mother is apparently unable to provide the bare nutrition to support the child's health, tthenwell, I pity you.
If cost to the state is your issue, there are far bigger and less morally disturbing fish to fry.

I think you are missing my point entirely. If the mother is volunteering to go home with the child, then the HSE should be providing support to get them both a flight out of Ireland back to the country of origin. Let the authorities in the home country look out for the welfare of the child.

The decision as it currently stands leaves a child in the care of a system that has failed children time and time again, and a mother on the street begging in an almost impossible situation of getting the child back.

Irish Guitarist

Being taken away from such a useless mother is probably the best thing that has ever happened to the child.

loveBBhate

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Being taken away from such a useless mother is probably the best thing that has ever happened to the child.

Watched 'Gone Baby Gone' tonight, some would beg to differ.

I wouldn't.

marshbaboon

Carlos Roca wrote: »

How do you enforce this?

Tell me how you would enforce this. Don't be shy - own your words and opinions.

Licensing for children. If you produce a child And you're unlicensed then your child is used as fuel for a power plant or melted down into soap. Harsh but fair.

loveBBhate

marshbaboon wrote: »

Licensing for children. If you produce a child And you're unlicensed then your child is used as fuel for a power plant or melted down into soap. Harsh but fair.

harshbaboon*

*fixed your username

angelfire9

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Get a job and a stable life before bringing a child into the world.

Leaving aside the fact that this lady is Roma and has probably never had a 9-5 job lots of people have "stable lives" before they had kids but unemployment, accidents, and "life" in general can change in a flash and its not like you can hand the kids back :rolleyes:

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Don't stay with a partner who's abusive towards your child

Oh how easy it is to preach from the comfort of your armchair
Chances are the ex was abusing the mother as well
Generally speaking, women in abusive relationships have low self esteem
The ones who leave after the first slap are few and far between (I know I was one of them)
The majority stay in the relationship believing the abuse is for some reason their fault, or it will get better, or "if I leave I will have nothing"
Spend a bit of time volunteering at a woman's refuge before you start spouting that kind of rubbish! :mad:

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Don't get pregnant if you can't even afford solid food.

And if you happen to be already pregnant when your word falls apart??

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Don't drop your baby in the nearest Garda station and come back looking for it when it suits

Oh yes, far better to hold on to the child, live on the streets, let the baby get pneumonia or worse...:rolleyes:

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Parenting lessons 101 brought to you by lexieonrale

Reality check brought to YOU by Angelfire9

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Contrary to popular belief, it's not your god given right to get pregnant and reproduce. In fact I'd go as far as saying only responsible "fit to be" parents would bring a child into the world knowing they will be able to take care of it.

If you're going to have a child and can only change its nappy twice a day, don't be surprised when the child is taken off you.

And in reference to the hysterical post saying it was a tyranny, (seriously?!) by that standard if the government has no business telling you what to do with your life, then don't go running to them with your begging bowl out expecting them to fund a lifestyle you can't afford. If you're recieving a lifetime (let's be honest, this mother would be) supply of free money from people actually getting screwed by all the taxes they pay for actually working, then I think the government should have some say, absolutely.

I wonder how many couples, both working, are out there, slaving away, being taxed to the back teeth, really wanting to start a family but can't as they know they're not a position to provide for a baby.

Now, that sounds the the 1st step to becoming a responsible parent.

Gyalist

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Get a job and a stable life before bringing a child into the world.

Don't stay with a partner who's abusive towards your child.

Don't get pregnant if you can't even afford solid food.

Don't drop your baby in the nearest Garda station and come back looking for it when it suits.

Parenting lessons 101 brought to you by lexieonrale

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, it's not your god given right to get pregnant and reproduce. In fact I'd go as far as saying only responsible "fit to be" parents would bring a child into the world knowing they will be able to take care of it.

If you're going to have a child and can only change its nappy twice a day, don't be surprised when the child is taken off you.

And in reference to the hysterical post saying it was a tyranny, (seriously?!) by that standard if the government has no business telling you what to do with your life, then don't go running to them with your begging bowl out expecting them to fund a lifestyle you can't afford. If you're recieving a lifetime (let's be honest, this mother would be) supply of free money from people actually getting screwed by all the taxes they pay for actually working, then I think the government should have some say, absolutely.

I wonder how many couples, both working, are out there, slaving away, being taxed to the back teeth, really wanting to start a family but can't as they know they're not a position to provide for a baby.

Now, that sounds the the 1st step to becoming a responsible parent.

I love the smell of sanctimonious, condescending smugness in the morning.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Gyalist wrote: »

I love the smell of sanctimonious, condescending smugness in the morning.

Sorry, am I incorrect?

whupdedo

I think we're all agreed that Ireland would be better off without the roma community, thanks for
Listening

whupdedo

And a few more minorities I could think of, put that in the pc peace pipe and have a good smoke

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

It's not just the Roma though (and I'm no fan of them). That could be anyone in that position, Irish Englidh ect.
They're see irresponsible donkeys in all nationalitys, with a sense of entitlement.

Gyalist

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Sorry, am I incorrect?

Yes, and wildly so. Those two posts I quoted seem like they were written by someone with very little life experience and even less empathy. Hope that your circumstances always remain perfect in your little world.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Gyalist wrote: »

Yes, and wildly so. Those two posts I quoted seem like they were written by someone with very little life experience and even less empathy. Hope that your circumstances always remain perfect in your little world.

So, I can become poor(er), with no home, no money, no health care, pop out a sprog, bring it out begging with me and expect others to fund my child?

Sounds like a horrific way to start a life, tbh. Maybe think more about your future Child and less about what you think you're entitled to do with your own body

Sir Humphrey Appleby

whupdedo wrote: »

I think we're all agreed that Ireland would be better off without the roma community, thanks for
Listening

Not all, speak for yourself.

Guy:Incognito

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Not all, speak for yourself.

In what ways are we better off having them here?

MonsterCookie

Carlos Roca wrote: »

What would be sad is if the child grew up denied her Mother.

So you don't think the current situation is also sad? I happen to think the HSE and state are doing the right thing, but it is still sad for the child...no?

0ph0rce0

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

In what ways are we better off having them here?

They bring jobs for a start.

When a roma takes a dump on the street, it gives the guys at the council a few days work cleaning it up.

whupdedo

Not to mention social services and solicitors

Sir Humphrey Appleby

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heffernan-roma-tweet-causes-shock-1.1575190

Ms Iordan said members of the Roma community in Cork were trying to prove they could make a meaningful contribution to society.
“Members of the community in Cork are doing volunteer work cleaning up the river Lee. They are picking up wood and cutting it up to give to the elderly people in Blackpool in the city. All of the coverage about the Roma has been undermining. It is upsetting people who want to be accepted.

valknut

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/heffernan-roma-tweet-causes-shock-1.1575190

Ms Iordan said members of the Roma community in Cork were trying to prove they could make a meaningful contribution to society.
“Members of the community in Cork are doing volunteer work cleaning up the river Lee. They are picking up wood and cutting it up to give to the elderly people in Blackpool in the city. All of the coverage about the Roma has been undermining. It is upsetting people who want to be accepted.

Publicity stunt and nothing more.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

valknut wrote: »

Publicity stunt and nothing more.

Poor Valknut, does the truth gets in the way of your agenda?

Grayson

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, it's not your god given right to get pregnant and reproduce.

Err. it is. Ok, getting rid of the God bit (I'm an atheist although if you believe there's that go forth and be fruitful bit which would imply it's a duty) do you know what a right is?

Being denied being able to reproduce is a gross violation of human rights. Ever hear of forced sterilisation? It's the kind of thing that used when ethnic cleansing.
And as much as I hate the idea of some junkie scumbag being able to have kids and mistreat them, the idea of denying people the right to have a child is far worse.

token101

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Doesn't always happen like that sadly.

If you use common sense, contraception and abortion in that order it does.

Grayson

whupdedo wrote: »

I think we're all agreed that Ireland would be better off without the roma community, thanks for
Listening

i think we're on the same page here

valknut

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Poor Valknut, does the truth gets in the way of your agenda?

What agenda might I supposedly have can I ask?

Can you link me an article to a successfully large Roma community in Europe ?