New Bilingual Road Signs Proposed

marmurr1916

The NRA has been asked by the Dept. of Transport to run a trial of proposed new bilingual road signs. The signs would show the English and Irish versions of destinations in lower case Turas font, with the Irish version above the English version. The Irish version would be coloured yellow.

A report on the proposal, which also examines the disadvantages of the current (mis)use of the Transport font, is in today's Irish Times, including images of the current and proposed designs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458

xabi

I like lower case, much easier to read like they have in UK.

marmurr1916

xabi wrote: »

I like lower case, much easier to read like they have in UK.

The proposed design uses a different font (Guess instead of Transport). Part of the rationale behind that is to make Irish road signs even more distinctive.

eviltimeban

Harder to read - and a waste of time. Its not like the Irish wasn't on it already? Waste of money too. Generally the road network is OK (the M roads at least), like driving Dublin to Cork only takes about 2.5 hours now. But there needs to be less tolls.

How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.

Sheldons Brain

This has some good ideas here, the lower case font and colour change is good. It is a pity (and perhaps typical of this country) that sign redesign is considered after the motorway programme has largely been completed and things like gantry signs were introduced. It isn't economic to change all of these signs.

cali_eire

What are your thoughts? I think the current signs are fine but then again my eyesight is decent so I dont have a problem reading the CAPS and I cant speak Irish.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458

chewed

I think it's a much better layout. I was never fond of the italics and always looked messy and hard to read. It's the same system as Scotland (see below).

But, as everyone is going to say, it's going to cost millions (which we don't have in the country) to replace all signs!

Thoie

I was going to have a hissy fit about wasting money, and they should only do it on an as needed basis, then I read all the way down, and saw that's exactly what they're planning. Hissy-fit averted.

The new signs, if adopted, will not incur additional cost to the State as they will only be introduced to replace decommissioned signs or when new signs need to be put up.

I think the sample they've shown looks terribly messy. I hate the yellow on blue (are they being sponsored by Ryanair?), but I'm not sure what colour would be better to distinguish the English from Irish, while remaining readable.

cali_eire

Thoie, good point - the "As needed" element takes the cost out of the issue. I like Chewed's example sign above more so than the one shown in the article.

IRLConor

I don't think there's a good, clear way of having bilingual signs without at least some confusion. Using colour will make it a little trickier for some colour blind people but using italics doesn't help readability either.

I like the Finnish system for bilingual signs. In monolingual Finnish municipalities the road signs are in Finnish only, in the few monolingual Swedish areas the road signs are in Swedish only and in the bilingual areas they have both languages with the majority one first. For road signs on major roads they follow the rules for the target city/town. For example, a road sign for Turku will typically include both Turku and Åbo but one for Jyväskylä will just say Jyväskylä.

It cuts down the number of bilingual signs while still using both languages for cases where people actually use both languages.

Thoie

cali_eire wrote: »

Thoie, good point - the "As needed" element takes the cost out of the issue. I like Chewed's example sign above more so than the one shown in the article.

It's probably the same colours, but it looks completely different on the green (national route) background than it does on the blue (motorway) background. Must look and see if there are existing Scottish motorway examples somewhere.

antoobrien

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This has some good ideas here, the lower case font and colour change is good. It is a pity (and perhaps typical of this country) that sign redesign is considered after the motorway programme has largely been completed and things like gantry signs were introduced. It isn't economic to change all of these signs.

They'll be replaced through normal maintenance, so they'll only be on new junctions/roads for a while.

Jayuu

There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users).
Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.

Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69233816&postcount=6

There were many people who made suggestions on the old thread including myself. Most of them suggested parity for Irish but will different colour (which is similar to the Scottish system I think).

chewed

Thoie wrote: »

It's probably the same colours, but it looks completely different on the green (national route) background than it does on the blue (motorway) background. Must look and see if there are existing Scottish motorway examples somewhere.

I could be wrong, but I think the bilingual signs in Scotland are only in Gaelic speaking regions in the highlands, mainly on minor roads.

donvito99

The sample signs show Fermoy in both yellow and white, which will it be? I'd be against equal billing, the Irish placenames should be in a smaller font.

Jayuu

There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users).
Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.

Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...16&postcount=6

There were many people who made suggestions on the old thread including myself. Most of them suggested parity for Irish but will different colour (which is similar to the Scottish system I think).

spuddy

Jayuu wrote: »

Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69233816&postcount=6

This is the photo Varadkar tweeted...

spacetweek

I don't think anything needs to be changed, and even if you did, there is far too much change going on at the same time:
- Shade of blue
- Arrow style
- Positioning of text elements
- Letter J on the junction number and design of number decal
- Kerning
- Design of Toll decal
- Different font
- Different case/style of lettering
- Different font colour

If they do this, they should only make the last two changes. Mixed case is easier to read. Though it remains an open question as to whether yellow is a good colour for a blue sign, due to the problems colour blind people would have. Might be better to just have the Irish in a smaller font size.

The main reason not to have too much change at once is because if they phase this in, new signs amongst a collection of old ones will stick out and look odd, and the changeover period could last decades. There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.

Carawaystick

spacetweek wrote: »

There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.

This is because, the places they direct to haven't moved significantly....

spuddy

spacetweek wrote: »

I don't think anything needs to be changed, and even if you did, there is far too much change going on at the same time:
- Shade of blue
- Arrow style
- Positioning of text elements
- Letter J on the junction number and design of number decal
- Kerning
- Design of Toll decal
- Different font
- Different case/style of lettering
- Different font colour

If they do this, they should only make the last two changes. Mixed case is easier to read. Though it remains an open question as to whether yellow is a good colour for a blue sign, due to the problems colour blind people would have. Might be better to just have the Irish in a smaller font size.

The main reason not to have too much change at once is because if they phase this in, new signs amongst a collection of old ones will stick out and look odd, and the changeover period could last decades. There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.

I'd agree with you about the colour, there's no benefit. Same for the arrow style / junction number / toll decal (although the sizing looks better). The other elements though, collectively serve to improve readability, and therefore I think have merit.

The signs will stick out irrespective, due to the most obvious change with yellow lettering for the Irish place names.

donvito99

They need to lose the J from the junction number - cluttered.

That username is already in use.

This should rile up the anti-Irish brigade here all right. My work here is done

spuddy

There you go, fixed.
Colour was too much of a pain, but you get the idea.

That username is already in use.

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This should rile up the anti-Irish brigade here all right. My work here is done

Just look at the thread in AH! :rolleyes:

Carawaystick

donvito99 wrote: »

They need to lose the J from the junction number - cluttered.

Especially as the Irish for junction doesn't begin with a J

Seriously, they should number exits and sign motorway/motorway junctions seperately, like in France, so you don't have the situation of junction 1 being junction 3 if travelling to it from another direction

If this was to happen, they should look at the state of the art in readability, which may have moved along since Transport or DIN Mittelschrift(or may not)

But also consider if there is a low cost method to frost/few proof signs, lots on the M6 suffer from this

In fact, the nra should look at the state of the art in road design and seek to implement this from here on in, rather than retrofit distance markers( on autoroutes since before there were motorways in Ireland) rest areas on motorways (ditto)
Road signs with incandescent lights to avoid frost ( Scotland)

These look very similar to the ones used in Cyprus.
Except that the Greek language is incapitals and the blue & green colours are transposed.
Green is used for the motorways.


Just one observation, while driving early one morning the yellow became almost invisible for a short period of time while the sun rose.

Banjoxed

I'm not keen on the concept of introducing a new design when most of the motorway network is completed, but why not use transport instead of a new font entirely? At least then there would be some continuity between distance signage between the North and the Republic.

Victor

eviltimeban wrote: »

Its not like the Irish wasn't on it already? Waste of money too. Generally the road network is OK (the M roads at least), like driving Dublin to Cork only takes about 2.5 hours now. But there needs to be less tolls.

How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.

eviltimeban wrote: »

How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.

Trolling / off-topicness not welcome. Please read the article before commenting.

Jayuu wrote: »

There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users). Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.

If there is a problem like this, please report the threads / posts.

Moderator

---

eviltimeban wrote: »

Harder to read - and a waste of time.

People with dyslexia and some other reading problems find 'all capitals' difficult to read.

IRLConor wrote: »

Using colour will make it a little trickier for some colour blind people but using italics doesn't help readability either.

How will colour blindness be an issue for anything but a truely tiny proportion of the population? I thought red-green colour blindness was the main issue with blue-green distinction being a secondary problem. I do admit that on a dark navy background that it will be difficult for many to tell yellow from white.

donvito99 wrote: »

The sample signs show Fermoy in both yellow and white, which will it be?

No it doesn't, it shows "Fermoy" in white and "Mainistir Fhear Maí" in yellow.

IRLConor

Victor wrote: »

How will colour blindness be an issue for anything but a truely tiny proportion of the population? I thought red-green colour blindness was the main issue with blue-green distinction being a secondary problem. I do admit that on a dark navy background that it will be difficult for many to tell yellow from white.

Colour blindness comes in many forms and it's not always about being unable to distinguish between two distinct colours. As far as I know, so-called "blue-yellow colour blindness" would actually result in the yellow text appearing to be closer in colour to the white text.

I'm not a readability expert, but I'm not confident in the ability of the general population to quickly differentiate between the yellow and white under all weather & lighting conditions. Lack of ability to quickly differentiate between the colours (whether due to colour blindness, poor eyesight, bad weather, bright light, etc) then makes it harder on people with dyslexia and other reading difficulties.

The main problem with the example sign above is that there's way too much information on it. Screwing around with fonts and colours won't fix that.

donvito99

Victor wrote: »

No it doesn't, it shows "Fermoy" in white and "Mainistir Fhear Maí" in yellow.

The Irish Times has two images, one with Fermoy in white, the other in yellow, and vice versa.

FURET

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The NRA has been asked by the Dept. of Transport to run a trial of proposed new bilingual road signs. The signs would show the English and Irish versions of destinations in lower case Turas font, with the Irish version above the English version. The Irish version would be coloured yellow.

A report on the proposal, which also examines the disadvantages of the current (mis)use of the Transport font, is in today's Irish Times, including images of the current and proposed designs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458

Nice to see my picture used by the Irish Times. Taken on a lovely May evening in 2009 a few weeks before the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme opened.

EDIT: Original image here, when I went by "Amtmann".

chewed

Why would M8 and R639 be in yellow as well?

Victor

chewed wrote: »

Why would M8 and R639 be in yellow as well?

Mótarbhealach 8 agus Bóthar Réigiúnach 639.

Banjoxed

Victor wrote: »

Mótarbhealach 8 agus Bóthar Réigiúnach 639.

Buel, beimid lan go leir ag caint as Gaeilge. Agus ta se mahogany gaspipe.

marmurr1916

Thoie wrote: »

It's probably the same colours, but it looks completely different on the green (national route) background than it does on the blue (motorway) background. Must look and see if there are existing Scottish motorway examples somewhere.

There aren't any bilingual motorway signs in Scotland. Bilingual signs are only used in the Gaidhealtachd (Scottish equivalent of the Gaeltacht) and there are no motorways there.

You need to look for examples from Wales.

murphaph

Wales uses white on blue for both Welsh and English (all in the same font mixed case) on motorways. This is the worst way IMO.

SeanW

IRLConor wrote: »

I don't think there's a good, clear way of having bilingual signs without at least some confusion. Using colour will make it a little trickier for some colour blind people but using italics doesn't help readability either.

For me, the current signage works perfectly, the clear differentiation helps me to avoid the useless information (the Gaelic versions) and to focus on what I need (what I consider to be the real placenames, in English). It's at the point now where I don't even see the Irish placenames unless I look specifically for them, which is quite rare. There is also the fact that most Irish language placenames - and all of the main ones without exception - exceed their English counterparts in length.

For example:

1. Dublin
   Balie Atha Cliath
2. Cork
   Corcaigh
3. Sligo
   Sligeach
4. Galway
   An nGallimeagh
5. Dundalk
   Dun Dealgan
6. Mullingar
   An Muillean gCearr

Most of those Irish names ramble past their English counterparts 2 to 1 but there are some even more extreme examples:

1. Mainister
   Fhear Mhai
   Fermoy
2. Baile Atha
   na Firdhea
   Ardee

And that is what must have stuck in the guts of the language fascists - that English speaking people can go about their business in one aspect of our lives without interference from the Irish language fruitcakes, because the existing signage counteracts the above factor and allows English speaker to quickily ascertain the info they need.

To anyone who supports this new design, please explain to me how it makes it easier for me to get to Ardee or Fermoy?

It has the exact opposite effect, and that's the point.

dubhthach

SeanW wrote: »

And that is what must have stuck in the guts of the language fascists - that English speaking people can go about their business in one aspect of our lives without interference from the Irish language fruitcakes, because the existing signage counteracts the above factor and allows English speaker to quickily ascertain the info they need.

Keep the Trolling to the minimum it carries a two week ban + infraction if ye bothered to read the Charter.

JupiterKid

Given that this country has recently undergone a frenzy of motorway building (and thus signage) - I consider these proposals to be a waste of time and money.

The existing signage is fine and fit for purpose.

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

Given that this country has recently undergone a frenzy of motorway building (and thus signage) - I consider these proposals to be a waste of time and money.

The existing signage is fine and fit for purpose.

The M6 between Kinnegad and Athlone is only about six years old and is already on its third set of signs:
the first ones were green (N6) ones that were replaced by identical blue ones (M6) then these were replaced again along with almost all the other signs in the country because someone decided to change the format, style & positioning of them.

If the style is changed then they'll change the signs again.
Waste of money, yes, but that is how you generate economic activity, money has to move and seen to be moved to make the GDP figures look better.
In that context the money is spent not wasted!

D.L.R.

Don't like that proposed font at all. Change for the sake of it, very wasteful mentality. Revisit this in 20 years maybe.

SpaceTime

FAR higher priority spending issues than this right now.
It needs to be put on the back burner. The signs are already bilingual and major signage is extremely expensive.

I'd rather this be spend on something useful like say cancer treatment !

antoobrien

SpaceTime wrote: »

FAR higher priority spending issues than this right now.

It's proposed as an "as needed" replacement, rather than a wholesale one.

tonc76

antoobrien wrote: »

It's proposed as an "as needed" replacement, rather than a wholesale one.

If it is to happen though it should be implemented across the board to all signs on all M, N, R & L routes.

Reflective material performance guarantees are currently between 7 -12 years which is generally the period of replacement on M & N roads. R & L road signs are often not replaced at the same frequency (if at all) as can be seen around the country with some signs still showing miles.

For the R & L road signs another question would be what colour would the Irish text be allocated as yellow will not work on a white background.

etchyed

antoobrien wrote: »

It's proposed as an "as needed" replacement, rather than a wholesale one.

Thank you antoobrien.

NO EXTRA MONEY WILL BE SPENT ON THESE SIGNS!!!

Despite this point having been made several times in what is only a three-page long thread, some people here are really having a tough time getting their heads around it.

What is proposed is that only signs that would have been replaced anyway due to age, damage etc. are replaced with signs of a revised design.

The tedious moaning about Irish getting equal prominence can and inevitably will continue. But this "waste of money" point needs to be nipped in the bud.

Banjoxed

SpaceTime wrote: »

FAR higher priority spending issues than this right now.
It needs to be put on the back burner. The signs are already bilingual and major signage is extremely expensive.

I'd rather this be spend on something useful like say cancer treatment !

Sure it's all about pretending. That's the most important thing.

Cnat

SeanW wrote: »

For me, the current signage works perfectly, the clear differentiation helps me to avoid the useless information (the Gaelic versions) and to focus on what I need (what I consider to be the real placenames, in English). It's at the point now where I don't even see the Irish placenames unless I look specifically for them, which is quite rare. There is also the fact that most Irish language placenames - and all of the main ones without exception - exceed their English counterparts in length.

For example:

1. Dublin
   Balie Atha Cliath
2. Cork
   Corcaigh
3. Sligo
   Sligeach
4. Galway
   An nGallimeagh
5. Dundalk
   Dun Dealgan
6. Mullingar
   An Muillean gCearr

Most of those Irish names ramble past their English counterparts 2 to 1 but there are some even more extreme examples:

1. Mainister
   Fhear Mhai
   Fermoy
2. Baile Atha
   na Firdhea
   Ardee

And that is what must have stuck in the guts of the language fascists - that English speaking people can go about their business in one aspect of our lives without interference from the Irish language fruitcakes, because the existing signage counteracts the above factor and allows English speaker to quickily ascertain the info they need.

To anyone who supports this new design, please explain to me how it makes it easier for me to get to Ardee or Fermoy?

It has the exact opposite effect, and that's the point.

The fact that the author of this truly ignorant post (in every sense of the word) is the author of over 5000 posts on Boards.ie presents us with an appalling vista.

On a specific point: 90% of Irish placenames have their origin in the Irish language, the Irish forms are the 'real' and original forms, the Irish forms are not 'versions', they are the original forms of the names, on which the anglicized forms are based.

What is clear here is that some people have a hysterical hatred for the Irish language, and will use any argument against its use on signage, whether that argument is valid or not (cost, distraction of drivers etc. etc.). Why someone would hate any language, yet alone one so intrinsic to their own country and culture, is difficult to understand.

What any of this has to do with a modest proposal aimed at improving the legibility of our road signage in both national languages on a gradual basis at no additional cost is beyond me.

Red Nissan

Cnat wrote: »

T hat is clear here is that some people have a hysterical hatred for the Irish language, .

Yes, naturally born, Irish men and Irish women with a HATRED of the Irish language.

If we organized we'd bury that silly excuse for Irish, OUR Irish is LONG dead and gone, what remains is pitiful and should be put down like a sick dog.

Real Irish is beautiful and linguistically has influenced our successive invaders, it was, at a time, unique, but post 1916 and 1960 "Irish" is not our language.

SeanW

Cnat wrote: »

The fact that the author of this truly ignorant post (in every sense of the word) is the author of over 5000 posts on Boards.ie presents us with an appalling vista.

:rolleyes::D

On a specific point: 90% of Irish placenames have their origin in the Irish language, the Irish forms are the 'real' and original forms, the Irish forms are not 'versions'.

I don't care. English is my language, and I want to know where I'm going. These signs will make that harder.

Why someone would hate any language, yet alone one so intrinsic to their own country and culture, is difficult to understand.

Latin is also intrinsic to my culture, country and heritage, yet I don't "hate" it and neither does anyone else I know. In fact I'm proud of it. Why would that be ... oh wait thats right - no-one is shoving Latin down my throat and if I'm interested in something, e.g. the ancient origin of a word, I just look it up or something and often find a Latin basis for it. No pressure, no constant demands from the Latin language brigade for preferential treatment in every aspect of my life.

What any of this has to do with a modest proposal aimed at improving the legibility of our road signage in both national languages on a gradual basis at no additional cost is beyond me.

1. The new signage is fugly and confusing.
2. You haven't explained how it's going to help me get to Fermoy or Adree, given the insane degree of verbosity of their Irish names (and many other places for that matter).

Sheldons Brain

If you suggest that a minority, say homosexuals, should do their thing in private and not require their interests to be reflected in public affairs then you are a bigot. On the other hand, if you suggest that a minority, Irish speakers, should be reflected in public affairs then you are a zealot.

The new signage is fugly and confusing.

Many consider it an improvement over the present design.

IRLConor

Cnat wrote: »

What is clear here is that some people have a hysterical hatred for the Irish language, and will use any argument against its use on signage, whether that argument is valid or not (cost, distraction of drivers etc. etc.). Why someone would hate any language, yet alone one so intrinsic to their own country and culture, is difficult to understand.

I don't hate the Irish language. I just don't think that roadsigns are an appropriate venue for the political language wars that afflict this country.

Putting Irish on the signs does nothing to help the Irish language. Removing Irish from the signs (where appropriate) would do nothing to hurt the Irish language. In fact, the money spent screwing around trying to come up with a design to make too much information readable could be spent actually helping the language.

Universally using both languages on signs in either the current or proposed form hurts usability. It would make sense to only use the Irish on signs where a significant proportion of people actually use the Irish form on a day to day basis.