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New Bilingual Road Signs Proposed

  • 08-11-2013 9:53am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    The NRA has been asked by the Dept. of Transport to run a trial of proposed new bilingual road signs. The signs would show the English and Irish versions of destinations in lower case Turas font, with the Irish version above the English version. The Irish version would be coloured yellow.

    A report on the proposal, which also examines the disadvantages of the current (mis)use of the Transport font, is in today's Irish Times, including images of the current and proposed designs.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭xabi


    I like lower case, much easier to read like they have in UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    xabi wrote: »
    I like lower case, much easier to read like they have in UK.

    The proposed design uses a different font (Guess instead of Transport). Part of the rationale behind that is to make Irish road signs even more distinctive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭eviltimeban


    Harder to read - and a waste of time. Its not like the Irish wasn't on it already? Waste of money too. Generally the road network is OK (the M roads at least), like driving Dublin to Cork only takes about 2.5 hours now. But there needs to be less tolls.

    How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭Sheldons Brain


    This has some good ideas here, the lower case font and colour change is good. It is a pity (and perhaps typical of this country) that sign redesign is considered after the motorway programme has largely been completed and things like gantry signs were introduced. It isn't economic to change all of these signs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭cali_eire


    What are your thoughts? I think the current signs are fine but then again my eyesight is decent so I dont have a problem reading the CAPS and I cant speak Irish.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭chewed


    I think it's a much better layout. I was never fond of the italics and always looked messy and hard to read. It's the same system as Scotland (see below).

    But, as everyone is going to say, it's going to cost millions (which we don't have in the country) to replace all signs!

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_5dkDvbCyZjaP-K_Ua5bZEewe8qCFM3NHd7-Z0eXC-exeP14UYA


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    I was going to have a hissy fit about wasting money, and they should only do it on an as needed basis, then I read all the way down, and saw that's exactly what they're planning. Hissy-fit averted.
    The new signs, if adopted, will not incur additional cost to the State as they will only be introduced to replace decommissioned signs or when new signs need to be put up.

    I think the sample they've shown looks terribly messy. I hate the yellow on blue (are they being sponsored by Ryanair?), but I'm not sure what colour would be better to distinguish the English from Irish, while remaining readable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭cali_eire


    Thoie, good point - the "As needed" element takes the cost out of the issue. I like Chewed's example sign above more so than the one shown in the article.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    I don't think there's a good, clear way of having bilingual signs without at least some confusion. Using colour will make it a little trickier for some colour blind people but using italics doesn't help readability either.

    I like the Finnish system for bilingual signs. In monolingual Finnish municipalities the road signs are in Finnish only, in the few monolingual Swedish areas the road signs are in Swedish only and in the bilingual areas they have both languages with the majority one first. For road signs on major roads they follow the rules for the target city/town. For example, a road sign for Turku will typically include both Turku and Åbo but one for Jyväskylä will just say Jyväskylä.

    It cuts down the number of bilingual signs while still using both languages for cases where people actually use both languages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    cali_eire wrote: »
    Thoie, good point - the "As needed" element takes the cost out of the issue. I like Chewed's example sign above more so than the one shown in the article.
    It's probably the same colours, but it looks completely different on the green (national route) background than it does on the blue (motorway) background. Must look and see if there are existing Scottish motorway examples somewhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    This has some good ideas here, the lower case font and colour change is good. It is a pity (and perhaps typical of this country) that sign redesign is considered after the motorway programme has largely been completed and things like gantry signs were introduced. It isn't economic to change all of these signs.

    They'll be replaced through normal maintenance, so they'll only be on new junctions/roads for a while.


  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users).
    Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.

    Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69233816&postcount=6

    There were many people who made suggestions on the old thread including myself. Most of them suggested parity for Irish but will different colour (which is similar to the Scottish system I think).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭chewed


    Thoie wrote: »
    It's probably the same colours, but it looks completely different on the green (national route) background than it does on the blue (motorway) background. Must look and see if there are existing Scottish motorway examples somewhere.

    I could be wrong, but I think the bilingual signs in Scotland are only in Gaelic speaking regions in the highlands, mainly on minor roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    The sample signs show Fermoy in both yellow and white, which will it be? I'd be against equal billing, the Irish placenames should be in a smaller font.


  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users).
    Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.

    Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...16&postcount=6

    There were many people who made suggestions on the old thread including myself. Most of them suggested parity for Irish but will different colour (which is similar to the Scottish system I think).


  • Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭spuddy


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Incidentally the image in the Irish Times was posted in the old Bilingual Signs thread credited to a Garret Reil from 2009 and it was also on a site that he used to maintain. Therefore I don't the Irish Times image is an actual example of the proposed signage but just using this image to show the concept.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69233816&postcount=6

    This is the photo Varadkar tweeted...
    BYeZ0dYCEAAsFr2.jpg:large


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I don't think anything needs to be changed, and even if you did, there is far too much change going on at the same time:
    - Shade of blue
    - Arrow style
    - Positioning of text elements
    - Letter J on the junction number and design of number decal
    - Kerning
    - Design of Toll decal
    - Different font
    - Different case/style of lettering
    - Different font colour

    If they do this, they should only make the last two changes. Mixed case is easier to read. Though it remains an open question as to whether yellow is a good colour for a blue sign, due to the problems colour blind people would have. Might be better to just have the Irish in a smaller font size.

    The main reason not to have too much change at once is because if they phase this in, new signs amongst a collection of old ones will stick out and look odd, and the changeover period could last decades. There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    spacetweek wrote: »
    There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.

    This is because, the places they direct to haven't moved significantly....


  • Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭spuddy


    spacetweek wrote: »
    I don't think anything needs to be changed, and even if you did, there is far too much change going on at the same time:
    - Shade of blue
    - Arrow style
    - Positioning of text elements
    - Letter J on the junction number and design of number decal
    - Kerning
    - Design of Toll decal
    - Different font
    - Different case/style of lettering
    - Different font colour

    If they do this, they should only make the last two changes. Mixed case is easier to read. Though it remains an open question as to whether yellow is a good colour for a blue sign, due to the problems colour blind people would have. Might be better to just have the Irish in a smaller font size.

    The main reason not to have too much change at once is because if they phase this in, new signs amongst a collection of old ones will stick out and look odd, and the changeover period could last decades. There are still black-and-white mile signs on country lanes all across the country, over 40 years after they were scrapped.

    I'd agree with you about the colour, there's no benefit. Same for the arrow style / junction number / toll decal (although the sizing looks better). The other elements though, collectively serve to improve readability, and therefore I think have merit.

    The signs will stick out irrespective, due to the most obvious change with yellow lettering for the Irish place names.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    They need to lose the J from the junction number - cluttered.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭That username is already in use.


    This should rile up the anti-Irish brigade here all right. My work here is done :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭spuddy


    There you go, fixed.
    Colour was too much of a pain, but you get the idea.

    10743648883_0058c431a7_z.jpg




  • This should rile up the anti-Irish brigade here all right. My work here is done :D
    Just look at the thread in AH! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    donvito99 wrote: »
    They need to lose the J from the junction number - cluttered.

    Especially as the Irish for junction doesn't begin with a J ;)

    Seriously, they should number exits and sign motorway/motorway junctions seperately, like in France, so you don't have the situation of junction 1 being junction 3 if travelling to it from another direction

    If this was to happen, they should look at the state of the art in readability, which may have moved along since Transport or DIN Mittelschrift(or may not)

    But also consider if there is a low cost method to frost/few proof signs, lots on the M6 suffer from this

    In fact, the nra should look at the state of the art in road design and seek to implement this from here on in, rather than retrofit distance markers( on autoroutes since before there were motorways in Ireland) rest areas on motorways (ditto)
    Road signs with incandescent lights to avoid frost ( Scotland)




  • These look very similar to the ones used in Cyprus.
    Except that the Greek language is incapitals and the blue & green colours are transposed.
    Green is used for the motorways.
    8076835000_5436578c3f_h.jpg

    Just one observation, while driving early one morning the yellow became almost invisible for a short period of time while the sun rose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    I'm not keen on the concept of introducing a new design when most of the motorway network is completed, but why not use transport instead of a new font entirely? At least then there would be some continuity between distance signage between the North and the Republic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,178 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Its not like the Irish wasn't on it already? Waste of money too. Generally the road network is OK (the M roads at least), like driving Dublin to Cork only takes about 2.5 hours now. But there needs to be less tolls.

    How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.
    How many millions will new signs cost, to appease a select few who want to promote a minority language (yeah yeah yeah its our "national" language)? The signs are fine the way they are.

    Trolling / off-topicness not welcome. Please read the article before commenting.
    Jayuu wrote: »
    There are two threads on this topic (started at almost the same time by two different users). Can we merge them and possibly merge them into the older thread on 'Bilingual Signs'.
    If there is a problem like this, please report the threads / posts.

    Moderator

    Harder to read - and a waste of time.
    People with dyslexia and some other reading problems find 'all capitals' difficult to read.
    IRLConor wrote: »
    Using colour will make it a little trickier for some colour blind people but using italics doesn't help readability either.
    How will colour blindness be an issue for anything but a truely tiny proportion of the population? I thought red-green colour blindness was the main issue with blue-green distinction being a secondary problem. I do admit that on a dark navy background that it will be difficult for many to tell yellow from white.
    donvito99 wrote: »
    The sample signs show Fermoy in both yellow and white, which will it be?
    No it doesn't, it shows "Fermoy" in white and "Mainistir Fhear Maí" in yellow.


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Victor wrote: »
    How will colour blindness be an issue for anything but a truely tiny proportion of the population? I thought red-green colour blindness was the main issue with blue-green distinction being a secondary problem. I do admit that on a dark navy background that it will be difficult for many to tell yellow from white.

    Colour blindness comes in many forms and it's not always about being unable to distinguish between two distinct colours. As far as I know, so-called "blue-yellow colour blindness" would actually result in the yellow text appearing to be closer in colour to the white text.

    I'm not a readability expert, but I'm not confident in the ability of the general population to quickly differentiate between the yellow and white under all weather & lighting conditions. Lack of ability to quickly differentiate between the colours (whether due to colour blindness, poor eyesight, bad weather, bright light, etc) then makes it harder on people with dyslexia and other reading difficulties.

    The main problem with the example sign above is that there's way too much information on it. Screwing around with fonts and colours won't fix that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Victor wrote: »

    No it doesn't, it shows "Fermoy" in white and "Mainistir Fhear Maí" in yellow.
    The Irish Times has two images, one with Fermoy in white, the other in yellow, and vice versa.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    The NRA has been asked by the Dept. of Transport to run a trial of proposed new bilingual road signs. The signs would show the English and Irish versions of destinations in lower case Turas font, with the Irish version above the English version. The Irish version would be coloured yellow.

    A report on the proposal, which also examines the disadvantages of the current (mis)use of the Transport font, is in today's Irish Times, including images of the current and proposed designs.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-road-signs-with-parity-for-irish-may-be-introduced-1.1587458

    Nice to see my picture used by the Irish Times. Taken on a lovely May evening in 2009 a few weeks before the Mitchelstown to Fermoy scheme opened. :)

    EDIT: Original image here, when I went by "Amtmann".


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