phonewatch - old or new?

danindub

Hi guys,

I just got phonewatch wired system installed last Friday, and on Monday they came up with brand new wireless system.

I got in touch with them and they'd be happy to replace the system for me for the new one if I choose to.

The old system comprises of inertia sensors, couple of contact sensors and two motion sensors. It's pretty standard wired system.

The new one is wireless and has no inertia sensors but one contact (for front door) and 4 motion sensors. Now the trick is that the motion sensor comes with camera (!) and when it's triggered it sends 5 pictures to their monitoring centre (and they can be used by gardai if needs to be...)

Now I think this is brilliant and no brainer - they essentially can verify alarm after one motion sensor is triggered and call the guards - with old system at least 2 alarms needed to be triggered. With new system you also get handy keyfobs to arm/disarm system and a smartphone app which let you do the same thing.

Again - I think it's no brainer and I should go for the new one, but maybe I'm missing something?? Any advice would be appreciated.

Dan.

2011

It would seem to me that the old system provides a higher level of perimeter protection with the inertia shock sensors.

This means that the "old alarm" should activate if an attempt is made to gain entry through a window/door that has an inertia shock sensor fitted. Hopefully this activation would stop an intruder from entering the premises.

Were the intruder not to attempt to gain entry through the front door the "new alarm" system would only activate once the intruder is in the premises as the only detectors are the PIRs.

Would you be satisfied if an intruder had to enter the premises to trigger the alarm system?

Is this a domestic installation?

danindub

Thanks for your input.

You are making a very valid point. I would prefer if intruder was possibly scared off before entering the house...

It's a domestic installation.

Thanks a lot for your input, I think this is a deal-breaker!

2011

I am sure you could get the new system with inertia shock sensors, however you can expect this "extra" to be reflected in the invoice.

KoolKid

It seems they are compromising your security for gimmicks.
Your visual verified will probably get no more priority that an alarm verified by 2 activations.
A couple of other points on this:
How much damage could be done to your property from the outside without the alarm even activating?
What form of monitoring is this new system using? From what I've heard its going to be GSM only. Meaning the entire monitoring both alarms & images can be blocked by cheap & easily available jammers.
Are you getting a live working external bell with the new system? PW often only install decoys to tie you to ongoing monitoring.
Will this system work with other providers, eg UPC etc, should you wish to change down the line?
Is there a radio option available if you are concerned about the risks with GSM.?
What panel are they using ? You need to research this & see if other licenced installers would be an option down the line.
I know of one company at the moment where the company have the panel & devices locked and tied to themselves. With the result they can charge €200 to replace or add any device. You don't want to be tied into something like that.
It seems to me you have better protection in place at the moment. Wired is always preferred if the cabling is OK . If you want all the extras like the apps etc why not look at something like Siemens SPC panels.? They allow you to add IP cameras which you can view yourself as well.
On a side note, Visonic do a system like this with PiR cameras for verification. We done some research on it & found almost all people were very reluctant to have cameras internally that a control room would have access to ,but they wouldn't.
Shop around & do some research before jumping at any offer like this would be my advice.

danindub

Hi there,

Thanks for feedback.

As I mentioned I already have system installed as of last Friday. I only just bought a house. The reason I went with phonewatch is that I heard of them a lot over the years and deferred payment (I don't pay for my system until March 2014). as a broke new home owner I couldn't say no to this. Also for similar system I was quoted more than phonewatch + year subscription, so was no-brainer for me. And for now this has to do. The way I see it is that if someone wants and knows how to break in they will anyway, with alarm or not.

The reason I asked was that I was given the opportunity to go for the new one. By no means they were trying to push it on me in fact they were quite reluctant originally.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

We done some research on it & found almost all people were very reluctant to have cameras internally that a control room would have access to ,but they wouldn't.

Yes, I was thinking this myself.

I would not like a 3rd party to have access to cameras within my home.
This is more suited to a commercial premises in my opinion.

I am not really a Phonewatch fan to be honest.

KoolKid

It seems you already have your mind made up.
I'm simply offering you some good advice re phonewatch. Search around this forum and you will see much more of the same.
Plenty of company's would have looked at deferred payments for you, there are plenty more offing a years free monitoring & more.
You will be quoted more for some systems than PW because there is much more to them. Most reputable installers will not be happy installing a couple of PiRs and some door contacts. I for one always recommend sensors & contacts on all downstairs and accessible windows & backed up by a couple of PiRs. But if anyone bothers to spec like with like they will see the price difference is the other way around.
I am in this business over 20 years & I still don't understand the mentality of that statement..

that if someone wants and knows how to break in they will anyway, with alarm or not.

If you think like that why pay for an alarm at all....
The truth is the vast majority of break-ins happen on property's without an alarm or without a working alarm.
Over the years add up your monitoring and maintenance fees & expenses and compare PW to others. You will pay more in the long run. limited to 2 call a year & pay €100+ per call after that..

I'm not having a go,and I'm not posting this for your benefit, as you have already made up your mind. I'm posting these details for others who will come on looking for advice they are willing to take on board.

danindub

I do take it on board the thing is that:

A) alarm by phonewatch is ALREADY INSTALLED. I can't change my mind.
I don't have time to look around for alarm. I have a job to go to. Frankly I'm surprised as a new buyer I wasn't approached by security companies especially as it's a new housing estate...
C) I had few quotes and they were like-for-like. I've got inertia in all downstairs windows and doors and all accessible upstairs. Phonewatch price was very competitive to non-monitored alarms. I had two companies arranged for survey. One never showed up, the other was 2 hours late. It's like they didn't want my money...

Evolution1

Would you post a picture of the alarm they installed ?

KoolKid

A) Fair enough.
Almost every alarm I install is for people who work,When making important decisions most people would find the time.
C) With PW I see very few quotes that are like for like.
Was a live external bell included?
Did all the windows with inertias also include contacts?
Does maintenance & monitoring include unlimited call outs and labour?
It does seem you were unlucky with who you called out for quotes, did the PW rep do a physical survey first.
What panel did PW install for you?

danindub

SecureWatch HKC

altor

danindub wrote: »

SecureWatch HKC

They installed Securewatch
The newer system from HKC is the Securewave.
The Securewave has the ability to add 70 wire free devices so if down the road you had any issues with cables you could add wire free devices. The dialer off the Securewave will do voice and text. With the Securewatch you are limited to just text if you decided to leave the monitoring at a later date. Also to get the text you need to be with Eircom or Vodafone.

KoolKid

danindub wrote: »

SecureWatch HKC

Unbelievable..
That's why you should come onto boards and do your research first. I finished installing those panels years ago. That panel is over 15 years old.

altor

Very reliable system and still installed by a lot of different companies.
I prefer to use the Securewave myself as it is more up to date, can add wire free devices plus has the ability to do voice and text using the same dialer with different service providers.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Very reliable system and still installed by a lot of different companies.

Not saying its not reliable , but its day has past.
I'd be suspicious of anyone selling this as a new install when there is much more modern panels available for the same money.

altor

I would too. There is about €15 in the difference between the Securewatch and Securewave.

danindub

Thanks guys. Very helpful.

Evolution1

I could make make a list of companies still installing these !

KoolKid

I could too its great. Makes selling a newer system so much easier.
It's like going into a phone shop and been offered a Nokia 6110 at the same price as an iPhone. Which would you take?

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

I could make make a list of companies still installing these !

It is surprising the amount of company's still selling the 8/12.
For the little extra cost of the 10/70 its there customers they are cheating.

danindub

I just wanted to point out what I've said before - my experience with other, smaller, security installation companies was very poor. I felt like no one is interested in my business/money.

No wonder businesses are falling. Yes maybe I didn't get best for my money with eircom but at least my problem was taken care of. That's what I, as a customer who just wants alarm in place, expected. I shouldn't need to know different types of systems, that's what you guys (installation companies...) are for.

KoolKid

If you shopped around a few independent installers and that's the impression you got then I d say you were very unfortunate.
It's generally the local /smaller companies who are more flexible and wont try to charge you €150 to change a battery and €200 + for a standard bell box.

danindub

KoolKid wrote: »

If you shopped around a few independent installers and that's the impression you got then I d say you were very unfortunate.
It's generally the local /smaller companies who are more flexible and wont try to charge you €150 to change a battery and €200 + for a standard bell box.

Must have been bad luck, but found Phonewatch very handy.

I paid €699 for two motion sensors (pet lens), three inertia/opening sensors, six inertia-only sensors and GSM box, control panel and dummy bell box and installation. I do not pay anything until Feb 2014 (which is fantastic since as a new home owner I'm completely broke). There is of course monitoring cost on top of that but that's not the issue.

I called, I discussed my requirements, I got discount, agreed the installation date and was ready to go. Guy arrived 10 minutes earlier and got everything setup. This is exactly how it should be.

I just want to point out that one of the "small" places quoted me €1200 for the same setup. The other two declined to give me any sort of quote before checking the site (I can understand why, but I'd like to be given estimate before I take time off work...). One did arrive two hours late late (I could not wait any longer and had to leave before they arrived) and the other never showed up. Didn't answer the calls until later that day "it wasn't in my calendar"....

For that alone I'm happy with my choice. Also the fact that Phonewatch were happy to replace my system with their new one free of charge - again, well impressed with customer service (however following advice here I did not go ahead with the change).

KoolKid

It's unfair to say €1200 for the same. I would say that would be a different panel and including external bell as standard and maybe with or without monitoring. That's why I always ask people to quote and compare like with like.
For example, does your service maintenance and monitoring cover all call outs and labour or are you limited to one or 2 calls?
I wouldn't give a customer a system design proposal either without a site visit as it's unlikely to be accurate.
I also would not install a GSM digi for use with central station monitoring. Way too easy to jam.
Anyway, you seem like a happy content customer. All the best with it and I hope all goes well and it gives you the protection and service you require.
If not, we'll see you back here, like many others, when things go wrong..

altor

danindub wrote: »

Must have been bad luck, but found Phonewatch very handy.

I paid €699 for two motion sensors (pet lens), three inertia/opening sensors, six inertia-only sensors and GSM box, control panel and dummy bell box and installation. I do not pay anything until Feb 2014 (which is fantastic since as a new home owner I'm completely broke). There is of course monitoring cost on top of that but that's not the issue.

I called, I discussed my requirements, I got discount, agreed the installation date and was ready to go. Guy arrived 10 minutes earlier and got everything setup. This is exactly how it should be.

I just want to point out that one of the "small" places quoted me €1200 for the same setup. The other two declined to give me any sort of quote before checking the site (I can understand why, but I'd like to be given estimate before I take time off work...). One did arrive two hours late late (I could not wait any longer and had to leave before they arrived) and the other never showed up. Didn't answer the calls until later that day "it wasn't in my calendar"....

For that alone I'm happy with my choice. Also the fact that Phonewatch were happy to replace my system with their new one free of charge - again, well impressed with customer service (however following advice here I did not go ahead with the change).

You could of added another €200 for a live bell box. The GSM supplied by P.W. is a new world GSM. If you decide to self monitor the system in years to come the GSM wont do this for you unless you add a voice dialer to be triggered off the outputs. With the proper GSM you would of had remote access to the alarm for setting unsetting purposes plus got a lot more info with regards activations. With the newer system you would also had the option to trigger lights/heat. Adding monitoring of the system on to your original price plus external bell would shown the true figure.

I am glad you think you got a good deal of the P.W sales people.

danindub

the two days off I wasted waiting for non-shows is also money wasted...

altor

danindub wrote: »

the two days off I wasted waiting for non-shows is also money wasted...

That is understandable. Its just a shame the company you put your trust in <snip>.

KoolKid

You never mentioned, are you happy that your alarm only uses GSM monitoring which can be easily jammed.
Furthermore , from what I hear all PW systems are now going to be GSM only.
An ideal target for burglars with jammers. No more guess work as to how the system is monitored.
The only way I would use GSM for central station monitoring is if the customer signs a disclaimer stating I have informed them of the risks of GSM jamming.
I'm guessing PW didn't do this & instead said it never happens.

altor

Not if the system is using a land line already.
Older GSMs dont log a jam but newer GSMs will.

KoolKid

How often is the polling ?& what action is taken on a single or duel path fail?

altor

I am not talking about a dualcom, but if GPRS is used it can be set up to poll if needs be.

KoolKid

But even with polling etc, little or no action is taken.
Remember this is the company who used to set up 168 hour auto tests.:rolleyes:

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

But even with polling etc, little or no action is taken.
Remember this is the company who used to set up 168 hour auto tests.:rolleyes:

If polling is set up on a Dualcom for 3 minutes then it is only flagged 15 minutes later as they have to miss 5 polls. Waste of time. Auto test is a joke, it really needs a poll and an action that can be taken, as it is none can be only to ring the customer to check it out.

KoolKid

I discussed this with a few station managers. A duel path fail should be treated as an attack.

altor

I agree but they are only allowed contact the keyholders.
15 Minutes before it is flagged is also something they should look at.

notaplumber

Gents,

I'm due to have Phonewatch call to my house this Wednesday to have the wireless system installed as explained the the OP. Again, it's €699, and as discussed, it operates over the GSM network.

The wireless system does not have the same amount of sensors as the OP's wired system...
I get........
1 Keypad
1 Door Contact
4 Motion sensors (PIR) with integrated cameras.
1 Smoke alarm sensor
1 Bellbox
4 keyfobs...(To arm/disarm the system)

Am I really wasting my money, (Even though I don't have to pay until 1st March 2014)?

Should I look at a different provider.

Just like "danindublin', I too have approached two companies in the past, one of which is a large company, whose systems I have seen at my local dentist etc. I had originally seen them displaying their wares at the Ideal homes exhibition a few years ago, and was shown the CCTV set-up, and how you could remotely view numerous camera feeds on your iPhone/ipad. However, having left my details with the REP on the day, he never got back to me. About 6 months later I made another appointment with the same company to view my house to quote me for installation....... I took the day off work, waited all day......... Another no show!

I contacted them the following day to be told, "Oh my wife went into labour so I had to go to the hospital".

Very unprofessional of his wife I must say:):)

Seriously though, I can see how the "Ease of contact" with Phonewatch helped him decide, as I too had been "messed around" by other independent companies.

Based on the above, I am looking for a monitored alarm to be installed in my semi detached home, along with 2 or 3 camera on the exterior of the property which I can access remotely on my iPhone etc from abroad..........

Can anybody advise?

I have in the past purchased "Wifi cctv cameras" from ebay etc, and have never had any success with them........ UPC modem protocols etc, (Something I have no idea about).........

So I, like the OP am willing to pay somebody to install a good reliable system as described above............

Any company want my money, other than Phonewatch??

Cheers

KoolKid

The whole phone watch model is is based on the quick impulse sale where you are not going to look anywhere else or do your research and compare.
The spec above is not giving you the security you need.
You have no perimeter protection so someone has to be in the house before the system even activates.
Is there a live external bell included in that price or is that an optional extra???
Is GSM the only form of monitoring? If this is all PW are using now that's putting a big target on your home for anyone with a GSM jammer that costs less than €50. For the first time a burglar will now know for sure that a property is using GSM only for alarm reporting.
As for the PiRs with the cameras????
Do you really want a system in your home where ARC controllers have access to images from inside your own home???
If anyone I know installed this I would not be comfortable setting foot inside their home.
Ask them why can't you connect to their station using another provider like UPC etc.
Ask them do they have a secure radio options if you are not comfortable with the risks of jamming.
They will tell you there is no risk of GSM jamming. Then ask this simple question..
Can your monitoring be jammed by a GSM jammer? It's a yes or no answer. If they say no ask for it in writing.
I could go on and on, but when you have a model where sales reps with no installation experience, or no experience of what different systems can do are designing your system, you are getting what suits them not you..
Why do PW only sell the one panel???
I don't know any other company that does that...

notaplumber

KoolKid,

I absolutely agree with everything you say.......
I asked the sales rep about the "Jamming aspect".......... Answer....." It has not happened to Phonewatch systems". (Although I suppose if it's a new system to PW in the Irish market then there hasn't been time yet for it to happen, so I take your point.

As for having "Cameras inside your home that others have access to......... I have to contact PW later today and ask them what exactly are the conditions that cause the cameras to "Take and transmit pictures to their monitoring building"....... I wonder if the cameras are triggered only in an "Alarm situation" or can the monitoring staff have access to the cameras independent of any alarm situation. (In fact only yesterday, I was chatting with my other half, and as we sat on the sofa watching TV, we discussed if we would be comfortable with a camera attached to the wall ...the answer was an absolute NO!).. So we have at this point decided to literally put a folded piece of card or similar over the lens to block the view whenever we are in the house, and only remove it when we are leaving for the day or heading to bed at night). Ideal set-up....absolutely not.

Yes, GSM is the only form of monitoring they provide....

The Bell box....... from their website it looks like a standard working bell box, but I'll confirm that with them when I contact them.

As for your other points, I agree, but as stated by the OP, and also in my post, I have had no luck with any other company and would be more than willing to spend good money on a good system, the requirements of which I outlined in my previous post.

Thanks for reply.

KoolKid

Re the answer to jamming. What else are they going to say? It's a very vague statement and very hard to prove either way.
Ask has there ever been an alarm activation that they have never received? The answer from every station I know would be a yes. How can you say, or prove, any missed report was not due to jamming.
Another concern of mine re GSM, is how vulnerable you property is on any new years eve for a period of about 6 hours??
Re the cameras, I,d imagine the answer will be they are only viewable after an alarm. How can you be sure, I don't know. The fact that the connection is there would be too much for me. Even if it is only on alarms, what happens if you come stumbling down early some morning half dressed and accidentally set it off????
Not something I want to even think about?
Likewise if there is an activation at night the first thing you do is jump up. You and not going to stop to get dressed etc...
The fact that you are contemplating covering them up means shows that you are being sold a system that does not suit your needs.
Believe me there are plenty of companies out there that will do a much better system for you.
You may have been unlucky, but shop around.
Also did PW come out and do a survey /risk assessment of your property?
Did they provide you with a detailed system design proposal?
These are requirements of EN50131.

danindub

Mod Edit:<Snip>
Content removed.
Installers here are not allowed recommend themselves or others on thread.
Secondly, to call a company or company's that you haven't used cowboys is not very fair now is it.?

KoolKid

To explain the above edit further:
From the forum charter.

Advertising
In short advertising is not allowed. However professionals here who contribute to the forum may, discreetly, post a text only link in their sig.
Openly touting for business is not allowed. Offering quotes, offering phone numbers etc is also not allowed.

Posts opened by any user to thank someone for their service or recommending a company will also be removed and treated as free advertisement, and will be removed.

The main idea of this forum was to have those who know helping those who don't. We intend to keep it that way.
Any contributing users here ,who are in the business, may have their contact details posted in the sticky.
If someone wants to approach them then they should initiate contact.
Obvious advertising will not be permitted. Do not register a new account just to come on & promote your business. The link will be deleted & your account will be banned.
Shilling is where a company or individual comes on highly recommending themselves or giving constant praise or recommendation . Likewise when an individual constantly posts recommendations & praise repeatedly for the same company.
If you are asked in a post for recommendations thats fine, anything else is shilling, this is also not allowed.
If someone here helps you out with something its fine to post thanks, providing it is in your own thread and/or in context to the issues you have had. Random or repetitive praise would be considered either shilling or off topic & will be deleted.

Some of the installers here are listed in this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956748
There is also a link to the PSA register of licensed installers there as well.

altor

notaplumber wrote: »

Gents,

I'm due to have Phonewatch call to my house this Wednesday to have the wireless system installed as explained the the OP. Again, it's €699, and as discussed, it operates over the GSM network.

The wireless system does not have the same amount of sensors as the OP's wired system...
I get........
1 Keypad
1 Door Contact
4 Motion sensors (PIR) with integrated cameras.
1 Smoke alarm sensor
1 Bellbox
4 keyfobs...(To arm/disarm the system)

A system like this is just giving you a false sense of security.
Perimeter protection backed up by 2 or more motion detectors is the way to go. I would ask P.W. for a quotation to cove same.

KoolKid

+1. It can be very deceiving when you are been quoted something not designed with your security in mind. You need to be quoting like with like.
If a correct survey was done on your property the detection equipment should be pretty similar.

KoolKid

+1. It can be very deceiving when you are been quoted something not designed with your security in mind. You need to be quoting like with like.
If a correct survey was done on your property the detection equipment should be pretty similar.
I have to say, I'm loving this new system of theirs.;)
Quoted 2 jobs against PW this week & got both of them.

altor

Very easy to sell a system like this over the phone. No real protection.

Just peace of mind as they say..

Evolution1

I don't like the idea of them only using GSM, there basically advertising that their system will fail if a GSM is used. Any phonewatch bell I see now basically screams out " look how easy it is to rob us !".
I do like the idea of the PIR cams as it would entice the Garda to respond quicker but I wouldn't like the alarm to go off during the night and realise that I'm wearing boxers while a monitoring station can see me cause I ran to turn off the alarm !. If they only came on for arming away and only sent photos/video for alarm activations then fine. I love that they have an app that quickly !
They didn't think the system through fully .
What's the name of the system they're using ?

danindub

how is cutting off the phone line any more challenging?

KoolKid

@ Daindub..As per the forum charter, please do not discuss moderation on thread.
Your first post was deleted because you were calling company's you haven't used cowboys. Your next was deleted for discussing moderation.
.
All nothing to do with pro or anti PW.

KoolKid

danindub wrote: »

how is cutting off the phone line any more challenging?

Cutting the phone line requires physical tampering ,jamming requires no physical attack on anything.

Evolution1

My phone line comes in through the foundation . There's no cabinet outside or no pole supplying the line .
Also some alarms are capable of being monitored over ip . If the line drops the monitoring centre won't receive the poll