Which Taoiseach has done the most for Ireland?

wretcheddomain

Pretty self-explanatory; which Taoiseach would you choose that has benefited this country the most?

Personally, I would have to choose Brian Cowen not least because he became the perfect example of a politician whom we shouldn't vote for, that's got to be viewed as a benefit!

theblaqueguy

Its gotta be bertie for me
He did a great job!

Mark Twain

I truly believe this current government under Enda Kenny will be up there. I can't see him outdoing Lemass, but he is doing an excellent job.

He will be seen as the man who stood up to the church, was in charge for the successful visits of Barack Obama and her majesty Queen Elizabeth II, made that moving speech after the Magdalene laundry reports, got the country out of the IMF bailout programme, legislated for abortion, and looks likely to do the same with same sex marriage. That's just off the top of my head.

diomed

Easier if the question was
Which Taoiseach has done the most worst for Ireland?

Sunnyisland

None of them, they were all politicians and there party's and self came first.

porsche959

Lemass probably the best of a bad lot.

CrazyRabbit

Which one served the least amount of time?

mike65

Lemass may have been FF but he and his camel hair coat cabinet dragged Ireland out of the dark ages, just a pity so much of the work started was not sustained

porsche959

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Which one served the least amount of time?

John Brutal.

Amirani

Probably Lemass. That's not saying he was our best Taoiseach, just that he led during an era that was primed for quite a lot of economic development for Ireland. He did a fair job at facilitating that.

Socially there's arguments to be made for the likes of Fitzgerald and Reynolds.

While not being Kenny's biggest fan, I do think he's done a good job of developing Ireland's image abroad, so he's probably worthy of consideration.

MRnotlob606

one day i will be fuher

hansfrei

John Bruton coulda been great.

If only he was on our side. One crazy fuddermucker.

hansfrei

Mark Twain wrote: »

I truly believe this current government under Enda Kenny will be up there. I can't see him outdoing Lemass, but he is doing an excellent job.

He will be seen as the man who stood up to the church, was in charge for the successful visits of Barack Obama and her majesty Queen Elizabeth II, made that moving speech after the Magdalene laundry reports, got the country out of the IMF bailout programme, legislated for abortion, and looks likely to do the same with same sex marriage. That's just off the top of my head.

The huge rate of suicide, condoning Anglos robbery of the people, driving up inflation during a time of economic recession, stifling growth, targeting the poor and the vulnerable, rewarding tax dodgers, creating the most unequal society we've seen in a hundred years, undoing workers rights, destroying the countries sense of pride......


Just a few things off the top of my head

Amirani

hansfrei wrote: »

driving up inflation during a time of economic recession

That's not necessarily a bad strategy right now. It reduces the massive debt burden that is probably the main reason behind our economic stagnation.

hansfrei

NiallSparky wrote: »

That's not necessarily a bad strategy right now. It reduces the massive debt burden that is probably the main reason behind our economic stagnation.

Its effecting the cost of doing business. Its effecting consumer spending Power. Its creating uncertainty in the market place. Its helping.make society more unequal.

From my POV.

Stinicker

Garret Fitzgerald brought the country back from the brink in the 1980's and set the foundations in place for sustained growth in the 1980's - 1990's, it took Fianna Fail to come along in 1997 and totally wreck all the good things which were attributable to Fitzgerald's government of the 1980's and the Rainbow Coalition in the mid nineties. Fianna Fail never did anything positive other than loot the country and line the pockets of their own corrupt cronies.

Mark Twain

hansfrei wrote: »

The huge rate of suicide, condoning Anglos robbery of the people, driving up inflation during a time of economic recession, stifling growth, targeting the poor and the vulnerable, rewarding tax dodgers, creating the most unequal society we've seen in a hundred years, undoing workers rights, destroying the countries sense of pride......


Just a few things off the top of my head

Usual drivel you hear trotted out.

Suicide is an awful thing, and I am active in the area of suicide prevention, but Ireland has an average suicide rate, not a HUGE one as you said.

Stifling growth and driving up inflation??? Which one is it buddy. Think you need to sit economics 101. You seem to just hear inflation and immediately assume its bad, because the price of a 20 pack of Major and 6 bottles of bud have gone up.

You'll have to provide some sort of evidence for the rest of that stuff.

As for the last point. I've never been more proud of my country. Seeing her Majesty speaking a cupla focal in Dublin castle was as poignant and proud a moment as we've had in decades.

wretcheddomain

hansfrei wrote: »

The huge rate of suicide, condoning Anglos robbery of the people, driving up inflation during a time of economic recession, stifling growth, targeting the poor and the vulnerable, rewarding tax dodgers, creating the most unequal society we've seen in a hundred years, undoing workers rights, destroying the countries sense of pride......


Just a few things off the top of my head

But as one of the other posters has said, it's about who did the least worst damage so to speak and focussing purely on the negatives isn't exactly the best way to answer the question.

tricky D

W.T. Cosgrave did a helluva job keeping the books in good shape in the 20s, when the British might have reduced the nation economically and fiscally to a basket case. Even de Valera acknowledged this, giving out to his son once when he went on a rant over the then previous government.

porsche959

Stinicker wrote: »

Garret Fitzgerald brought the country back from the brink in the 1980's and set the foundations in place for sustained growth in the 1980's - 1990's, it took Fianna Fail to come along in 1997 and totally wreck all the good things which were attributable to Fitzgerald's government of the 1980's and the Rainbow Coalition in the mid nineties. Fianna Fail never did anything positive other than loot the country and line the pockets of their own corrupt cronies.

Fitzgerald was probably the worst Taoiseach in history.

_Kaiser_

Mark Twain wrote: »

I truly believe this current government under Enda Kenny will be up there. I can't see him outdoing Lemass, but he is doing an excellent job.

He will be seen as the man who stood up to the church, was in charge for the successful visits of Barack Obama and her majesty Queen Elizabeth II, made that moving speech after the Magdalene laundry reports, got the country out of the IMF bailout programme, legislated for abortion, and looks likely to do the same with same sex marriage. That's just off the top of my head.

You can't be serious.... (Taken from my post here)

Enda Kenny...

- the man who reneged on virtually every pre-election promise the minute he got into power

- who has been more concerned with being a "good European" than representing the people who put him there

- who refuses point blank to debate outside the Dail and even there can't do it without resorting to petty name-calling or deflection tactics about whose party did what (as if ANY of the current parties have a spotless history)

- who's had several members of his party turn against him

- who 2.5 years on is STILL blaming FF on almost a daily basis

- who just had his pet-project referendum on abolishing the Seanad defeated, quite possibly due to the above arrogance and sending Bruton out to do the job for him

- who has a health minister (and party colleague) with apparently less maths ability than Cowen and Bertie having his competence openly questioned by TD's and the media

.. has suddenly decided he's going to be the one to sort out the welfare system?? A guy who has been in "public service" since 1975 and was "double-jobbing" himself for 30 years.

And you people believe it? It didn't occur to you that this might just be another populist attempt to win back his core voters after the 2 latest fiascos? An attempt to distract from these rather embarrassing issues, especially with the local/Euro elections coming up?

Oh and let's not forget Enda's idea of "incentivising" is to push young people back into their parents home (assuming the parents can afford to keep them that is!) or onto a plane. Or extending the massively-abused "Job Bridge" scheme to 18 months - but hey, if it reduces (hides!) the true extent of the problem then sure why not!

As for your examples above...

- Stood up to the Church? He made a few populist speeches and the Church told him to whistle for the money they should have paid the victims.

- Obama/The Queen. What exactly did he do of note there, aside from steal one of Obama's speeches?

- Out of the Bailout: Really? Cause from what I read over the weekend, it seems to me we're being "encouraged" to take another one

- Abortion: A half-assed attempt at legislation that only occured after a poor woman died is hardly dealing with the Abortion Issue.
Luckily the British Pregnancy Advisory Service is still willing to look after Irish women

Kenny is probably the weakest, most ineffectual "leader" this country has seen in decades (if not ever!). FF may have set the country up for ruin, but Enda and Co quite happily picked up right where they left off.

Zebra3

Mark Twain wrote: »

I truly believe this current government under Enda Kenny will be up there. I can't see him outdoing Lemass, but he is doing an excellent job.

He will be seen as the man who stood up to the church, was in charge for the successful visits of Barack Obama and her majesty Queen Elizabeth II, made that moving speech after the Magdalene laundry reports, got the country out of the IMF bailout programme, legislated for abortion, and looks likely to do the same with same sex marriage. That's just off the top of my head.

This is how good Edna Kenny is.

Our brave leader. What would we do without him? :eek:

What a hero!!!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-were-shamed-by-conspiracy-of-silence-26743866.html

Enjoy paying that 20 billion euro, losers....

Spring Onion

Seriously folks, if Ye think Enda is up there you must have tunnel vision in a very sheltered life. He is a buffoon. His government are puppets. He is leader of FF lite. Check out the national debt clock and wake up to fcuk.

Lemass #1 for me.

SC Kevin

where is the "self serving parasite" option?

hansfrei

Mark Twain wrote: »

Usual drivel you hear trotted out.

Suicide is an awful thing, and I am active in the area of suicide prevention, but Ireland has an average suicide rate, not a HUGE one as you said.

Stifling growth and driving up inflation??? Which one is it buddy. Think you need to sit economics 101. You seem to just hear inflation and immediately assume its bad, because the price of a 20 pack of Major and 6 bottles of bud have gone up.

You'll have to provide some sort of evidence for the rest of that stuff.

As for the last point. I've never been more proud of my country. Seeing her Majesty speaking a cupla focal in Dublin castle was as poignant and proud a moment as we've had in decades.

I can't be talked down to by someone who looks up to a parasite.

Echelons 101.

AskMyChocolate

I know my grandfather (who went on to be Fine Gael's minister for Industry & Commerce) always had a huge amount of respect for Sean Lemass.

They both had guns put to their heads (literally rather than metaphorically), yet managed to work together, cross-party, under the radar, while wounds were still very raw, in an effort to build this country.

Bord na Mona, ESB, Bord Gais, Coillte, Irish Sugar, Aer Lingus, Irish Cement, RTE, IDA etc.

Sad to see it all having to be sold off to cover for the gambling debts of a fistful of valueless knackers.:(

But, I've gone off-thread.

Sean Lemass IMO.

SoulandForm

porsche959 wrote: »

Fitzgerald was probably the worst Taoiseach in history.

I find him funny in that he thought that social liberalism would appeal to Ulster Protestants- I am an Ulster Protestant and we are probably the least socially liberal people in western Europe.

telekon

porsche959 wrote: »

Fitzgerald was probably the worst Taoiseach in history.

No, that would be Bertie.

Sure, you can throw him down as worst Minister for Finance too while you're at it.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

hansfrei wrote: »

I can't be talked down to by someone who looks up to a parasite.

Echelons 101.

Great retort to his reasonable points. You haven't a clue

Usual bleeding heart liberal soapboxing that gives genuine liberalism a bad name

Enda Kenny is not responsible for any of the things in your OP, only a fool would think he has had an impact on suicide rates in Ireland

Then when presented with fact you come up with the crap above

Pathetic

Forest Demon

Ahern is a spoofing, self serving, arrogant, corrupt scumbag and should be in prison never mind collecting his fat pension. Only in Ireland would people believe the "I won it on a horse" excuse or the whip round excuse. It sickens me to see a single person voting for him in this pole.

Forest Demon

telekon wrote: »

No, that would be Bertie.

Sure, you can throw him down as worst Minister for Finance too while you're at it.

and the biggest see you next Tuesday :mad:

irishfeen

Sean Lemass without any doubt was the best... from a veteran of the 1916 Easter Rising, War of Independence and the Civil War, finally lifting Ireland out of the economic wildnerness and becoming the first Irish leader to offer a hand of friendship to the protestant leadership/community in NI.... A true Irish Patriot who would be turning in his grave with the actions of some/most of his successors.

hansfrei

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Great retort to his reasonable points. You haven't a clue

Usual bleeding heart liberal soapboxing that gives genuine liberalism a bad name

Enda Kenny is not responsible for any of the things in your OP, only a fool would think he has had an impact on suicide rates in Ireland

Then when presented with fact you come up with the crap above

Pathetic

Is Enda not the Taoiseach?

The facts speak for themselves. This will be regarded as the second worst administartion the country has ever seen. Thats FG and Endas choice.

irishfeen

hansfrei wrote: »

Is Enda not the Taoiseach?

The facts speak for themselves. This will be regarded as the second worst administartion the country has ever seen. Thats FG and Endas choice.

Do you know what I think Enda Kenny will in time be looked back on very favorably in the history books... history will record that he did what the country needed at his time in office, not necessarily what the country wanted ... as a leader you have to govern for the future - not with an eye on the next election.

May I quote Mr Lemass - "'A defeatist attitude now would surely lead to defeat...We can't opt out of the future" - never truer/more apt words were spoken on our little island.

Riddle101

For me it's a tie between W.T Cosgrave and Sean Lamass. Both guys did a very good job while in office. Sadly however, I feel their work was in vain because after they left office, things got messed up with their successors.

hansfrei

irishfeen wrote: »

Do you know what I think Enda Kenny will in time be looked back on very favorably in the history books... history will record that he did what the country needed at his time in office, not necessarily what the country wanted ... as a leader you have to govern for the future - not with an eye on the next election.

I can't make sense of that. Responsibility and accountability are completely absent from his vocabulary. If breaking promises and causing hardship is a virtue to you, then yes. Hes a great man.

Rabelais

Zebra3 wrote: »

This is how good Edna Kenny is.

Our brave leader. What would we do without him? :eek:

What a hero!!!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-were-shamed-by-conspiracy-of-silence-26743866.html

Enjoy paying that 20 billion euro, losers....

Using Gene Kerrigan as a reference? He's the worst type of smug, self-loathing socialist who thinks he is living in the early 1970's and awaiting the glorious revolution to arrive. His brand of marxist drivel died when another Sindo luminary - Eoghan Harris - had a road to damascus conversion.

Meanwhile Gene posts the same article type of article every week, takes his cheque and declares himself an artist so he doesn't have to pay tax on his earnings. Complete spoofer.

It's easy call for default, leaving the Euro and every other sort of loonie-left nonsense when you don't have to actually do it - or have to live with the consequences.

Spring Onion

irishfeen wrote: »

Do you know what I think Enda Kenny will in time be looked back on very favorably in the history books... history will record that he did what the country needed at his time in office, not necessarily what the country wanted ... as a leader you have to govern for the future - not with an eye on the next election.

What planet are you on? He has done nothing 'for the future' only continue death by a 1000 cuts. He is a complete coward. Afraid of the public servant unions, afraid of the Troika, afraid of the senior Labour ministers, afraid to debate, afraid of senior citizens and afraid of Vincent Brown. What has he done for the future except ensure we are crippled with debt AND WE STILL BORROW 1,000,000,000 A MONTH TO FUND THIS FIASCO! Who do you think is going to pay all this debt back????????????? That's right, the FUTURE citizens.

I fully expect him to retire at the next GE along with Bertie, Cowen, Coughlan, Harney etc etc

irishfeen

hansfrei wrote: »

I can't make sense of that. Responsibility and accountability are completely absent from his vocabulary. If breaking promises and causing hardship is a virtue to you, then yes. Hes a great man.

His job as Taoiseach is simple... Restore Irish economic sovereignty, reduce unemployment, increase exports, increase foreign direct investment and reduce of deficit/balance the books... he is well on the way to achieving all these targets and it would be a massive achievement if he could pull it off.... people have to be realistic, the current government took over a Fianna Fail bankrupt state - pain now will mean long term gain.

irishfeen

Spring Onion wrote: »

What planet are you on? He has done nothing 'for the future' only continue death by a 1000 cuts. He is a complete coward. Afraid of the public servant unions, afraid of the Troika, afraid of the senior Labour ministers, afraid to debate, afraid of senior citizens and afraid of Vincent Brown. What has he done for the future except ensure we are crippled with debt AND WE STILL BORROW 1,000,000,000 A MONTH TO FUND THIS FIASCO! Who do you think is going to pay all this debt back?????????????

So you want total industrial upheaval closing down the country? afraid of the Troika? :rolleyes: where the hell do you think the money to run the country would come from if we took on the EU/IMF?

Who created the debt? .. FG/LAB? ... I think we as a country can get over not having a VB/Kenny debate.

Amirani

Spring Onion wrote: »

What has he done for the future except ensure we are crippled with debt AND WE STILL BORROW 1,000,000,000 A MONTH TO FUND THIS FIASCO! Who do you think is going to pay all this debt back????????????? That's right, the FUTURE citizens.

Sovereign debt tends not to get paid back. It gets eroded by inflation over time and replaced with more sovereign bond issues. Interest rates are the only major concern in this sense, and Ireland's interest rates are currently at very reasonable levels.

I fully expect him to retire at the next GE along with Bertie, Cowen, Coughlan, Harney etc etc

What the hell difference does that make to anything?

irishfeen

Spring Onion wrote: »

I fully expect him to retire at the next GE along with Bertie, Cowen, Coughlan, Harney etc etc

I think you may be surprised when he is returned as Taoiseach by the people.

hansfrei

irishfeen wrote: »

His job as Taoiseach is simple... Restore Irish economic sovereignty, reduce unemployment, increase exports, increase foreign direct investment and reduce of deficit/balance the books... he is well on the way to achieving all these targets and it would be a massive achievement if he could pull it off.... people have to be realistic, the current government took over a Fianna Fail bankrupt state - pain now will mean long term gain.

Lol

FG voted with FF to bankrupt this nation. They carried out Cowens order to pay off the casino that was Anglo Irish Bank.

Amirani

hansfrei wrote: »

Lol

FG voted with FF to bankrupt this nation. They carried out Cowens order to pay off the casino that was Anglo Irish Bank.

What would your strategy have been so?

Spring Onion

irishfeen wrote: »

So you want total industrial upheaval closing down the country? afraid of the Troika? :rolleyes: where the hell do you think the money to run the country would come from if we took on the EU/IMF?

Who created the debt? .. FG/LAB? ... I think we as a country can get over not having a VB/Kenny debate.

Very simple - the 60+ billion banking debt is not our debt. FG/Lab should have fought tooth and nail to get it separated from sovereign debt. That was the game breaker. They should have threatened to burn the bondholders and bring the whole house down. Instead they took their instructions and gave up immediately.
Leo said "not a red cent" would be paid to the banks until senior bondholders were forced to share the burden...oh yeah...

irishfeen

hansfrei wrote: »

Lol

FG voted with FF to bankrupt this nation. They carried out Cowens order to pay off the casino that was Anglo Irish Bank.

As in the bank guarantee?... without that guarantee and if we let the banks fall then there would have been a run on Irish, European and Global banks probably falling the world's financial system (not good at all!). Its not the guarantee that was/is the problem but the unwillingness of the Eurozone to spread the banking debt out evenly across the continent.

Amirani

Spring Onion wrote: »

That was the game breaker. They should have threatened to burn the bondholders and bring the whole house down.

What would that have done exactly do you think?

Rabelais

Ah, burn the bondholders. That auld mantra.

hansfrei

NiallSparky wrote: »

What would your strategy have been so?

People needed to be held accountable for what happened in the follow on from the guarantees.


Thats the first step. Not to be left to some showcase tribuneral after Cowens administration, his friends in the dept of Finance and central bank are dead.

hansfrei

Rabelais wrote: »

Ah, burn the bondholders. That auld mantra.

Jayzus.

Anymore fanboys popping up tonight?

tayto lover

NiallSparky wrote: »

What would that have done exactly do you think?

I think it would have scared the Germans and they would have been forced to spread the debt all over the continent instead of making the Irish people the only scapegoats by forcing it all on them. Their bluff should have been called.