Sent Car for Service. Car returned without Owners Manual & Logbook (service book)

artful_codger

Hi, i sent my Car in for a service last week to my local dealership. When i collected the car i went to check that the logbook had been updated, but the logbook and owners manual were not in the glove compartment where i had left them. I contacted the dealership and they checked with the person who carried out the service, who said that he noticed the logbook wasn't there when he looked for it, but he 'forgot' to tell anyone about it, which would be normal procedure for them i guess. I checked the house and it's definitely not here, which doesn't surprise me because i know myself that i left it in the glove compartment where it always is, before dropping it in for the service.

Is this something that happens to other people when they get a car serviced? Is there a little earner on the side on donedeal for Manuals? I find it hard to believe they're worth taking, but that seems to be what has happened.

I guess i'm just going to have to stick to my guns and demand that they replace it, but any feedback would be appreciated.

CiniO

I assume you use for "logbook" for a service book of your car, where dealers put stamps to confirm service history.

However "logbook" term is widely used in Ireland as slang word to describe VRC (Vehicle registration certificate).
If you rang them and asked about logbook, I'm not surprised they didn't have it.

coylemj

CiniO wrote: »

I assume you use for "logbook" for a service book of your car, where dealers put stamps to confirm service history.

However "logbook" term is widely used in Ireland as slang word to describe VRC (Vehicle registration certificate).
If you rang them and asked about logbook, I'm not surprised they didn't have it.

I seriously doubt that that confusion has arisen since the OP said 'they checked with the person who carried out the service, who said that he noticed the logbook wasn't there when he looked for it'

Nobody who is servicing a car expects to find the registration cert. in the glove box. Clearly when the mechanic was asked about the logbook, he understood exactly what the OP was referring to.

artful_codger

No, i'm referring to the service book, which i expected to be stamped with the date of the service. The owners manual is also gone, which i said to the Garage, so i doubt there's any confusion in the Garage about the item i'm referring to.

cheers

Cleveland Hot Pocket

coylemj wrote: »

I seriously doubt that that confusion has arisen since the OP said 'they checked with the person who carried out the service, who said that he noticed the logbook wasn't there when he looked for it'

Nobody who is servicing a car expects to find the registration cert. in the glove box. Clearly when the mechanic was asked about the logbook, he understood exactly what the OP was referring to.

Obviously the mechanic understood what was meant. Indeed in Ireland, log book can also mean the service book. The other poster on this thread has been shown on many threads here to have a major issue with anything Irish (laws, habits, etc) so I would disregard tbh.

djimi

I think most people would think registration cert when they hear logbook, but in this case they clearly knew what the OP was referring to.

OP have you any way to prove that the book and manual were in the car when you gave it to them? If not then I dont really see how you are going to have any joy demanding that they be replaced; its essentially your word against theirs.

Rick Rod

artful_codger wrote: »

Hi, i sent my Car in for a service last week to my local dealership. When i collected the car i went to check that the logbook had been updated, but the logbook and owners manual were not in the glove compartment where i had left them. I contacted the dealership and they checked with the person who carried out the service, who said that he noticed the logbook wasn't there when he looked for it, but he 'forgot' to tell anyone about it, which would be normal procedure for them i guess. I checked the house and it's definitely not here, which doesn't surprise me because i know myself that i left it in the glove compartment where it always is, before dropping it in for the service.

Is this something that happens to other people when they get a car serviced? Is there a little earner on the side on donedeal for Manuals? I find it hard to believe they're worth taking, but that seems to be what has happened.

I guess i'm just going to have to stick to my guns and demand that they replace it, but any feedback would be appreciated.

It could be theft and you also cannot be sure what they are planning to use it for. Talk to the Gardai

LordSinclair

artful_codger wrote: »

Hi, i sent my Car in for a service last week to my local dealership. When i collected the car i went to check that the logbook had been updated, but the logbook and owners manual were not in the glove compartment where i had left them. I contacted the dealership and they checked with the person who carried out the service, who said that he noticed the logbook wasn't there when he looked for it, but he 'forgot' to tell anyone about it, which would be normal procedure for them i guess. I checked the house and it's definitely not here, which doesn't surprise me because i know myself that i left it in the glove compartment where it always is, before dropping it in for the service.

Is this something that happens to other people when they get a car serviced? Is there a little earner on the side on donedeal for Manuals? I find it hard to believe they're worth taking, but that seems to be what has happened.

I guess i'm just going to have to stick to my guns and demand that they replace it, but any feedback would be appreciated.

No, you're being paranoid.

Greenmachine

Wow that really suck OP especially if your car had a full service history to date. It effectively means that it is all gone now. Perhaps if it is convenient call out to the garage in person and try to speak to whoever serviced your car.

sumo12

Our procedure is to only remove the service book for stamping. This is done by front desk and left on the passenger seat of the vehicle by the mechanic. The owners manual and any other material is left in the pouch in the car. We mark the job card "NSB" for "No Service Book" if the book is not present. 50% of cars have no books whatsoever in them, I can only assume that customers remove them for some reason. Service books and owners manual have little or no value as one is generic and the other relates to one car only, so doubt there is any subversive element.

OP if you are 100% sure the books were in the car on the morning of the service - not just "I saw them there last year" then challenge the garage - I'm sure duplicates can be sourced.

Anan1

artful_codger wrote: »

I guess i'm just going to have to stick to my guns and demand that they replace it, but any feedback would be appreciated.

This is a main dealership, yes? If so then be firm and they'll either find or replace the books. Was the entire SH with the same dealer? Do you have invoices for the missing stamps?

bucketybuck

Anan1 wrote: »

This is a main dealership, yes? If so then be firm and they'll either find or replace the books. Was the entire SH with the same dealer? Do you have invoices for the missing stamps?

They can only find them if they were there in the first place. Surprisingly enough, many cars these days won't have the owners pack still in the glovebox. Don't know why, maybe kids lift it out, or it gets removed while cleaning and not put back.

Whatever the reason, I cheerfully suggest the OP clarifies what he means when he says he knows the books were there. Does he know because he gently caressed them before walking in the door of the dealership, or does he "know" because they just should be there and he can't remember ever moving them?

And to answer an earlier point, no dealer gives a hoot about your service book, they won't steal them because they don't need them, tons of the things hanging around.

George Dalton

What kind of car is it?

biko

Title amended with "service book" so we know..

Anan1

bucketybuck wrote: »

They can only find them if they were there in the first place. Surprisingly enough, many cars these days won't have the owners pack still in the glovebox. Don't know why, maybe kids lift it out, or it gets removed while cleaning and not put back.

Whatever the reason, I cheerfully suggest the OP clarifies what he means when he says he knows the books were there. Does he know because he gently caressed them before walking in the door of the dealership, or does he "know" because they just should be there and he can't remember ever moving them?

I think the OP made that clear in his first post? He left them in the glovebox and they were gone when he collected the car.

wersal gummage

Anan1 wrote: »

I think the OP made that clear in his first post? He left them in the glovebox and they were gone when he collected the car.

Yeah but then he checked the house for them.... !

Mint Sauce

Rick Rod wrote: »

It could be theft and you also cannot be sure what they are planning to use it for. Talk to the Gardai

Reading the OPs post, its quite clear that he was refering to the book where the dealers service stamp is entered.

Not quite sure what illegal activities they could carry out with that.

listermint

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Reading the OPs post, its quite clear that he was refering to the book where the dealers service stamp is entered.

Not quite sure what illegal activities they could carry out with that.

Keep it and amend the reg inside, passing off a crappier car as having been serviced with full stamps...

its not that hard to imagine.


OP if you are confident it was there ( i mean 100%) the onus is on the dealership to replace it. Follow up with them.

Anan1

wersal gummage wrote: »

Yeah but then he checked the house for them.... !

Presumably to make sure that he wasn't mistaken. We all do that when something goes missing.

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

Keep it and amend the reg inside, passing off a crappier car as having been serviced with full stamps...

its not that hard to imagine.

Quite a bit harder to believe though. Fact is, any dealer can create a fake service history in about ten minutes should they want to, trust me, they don't need anybodies service book.

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

OP if you are confident it was there ( i mean 100%) the onus is on the dealership to replace it. Follow up with them.

And not to keep playing devils advocate, but the onus is most certainly not on the dealership to just replace it. They may do so as a goodwill gesture, but they are not responsible for what may or may not be in your car. Where does that lead, some customer claims that they had a fancy jump pack in the boot, now the dealer has to replace it? Simply not the case at all.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bucketybuck wrote: »

And not to keep playing devils advocate, but the onus is most certainly not on the dealership to just replace it. They may do so as a goodwill gesture, but they are not responsible for what may or may not be in your car. Where does that lead, some customer claims that they had a fancy jump pack in the boot, now the dealer has to replace it? Simply not the case at all.

The onus is on the dealership to replace whatever was present in the car when it was left in, and is no longer there.

djimi

bucketybuck wrote: »

And not to keep playing devils advocate, but the onus is most certainly not on the dealership to just replace it. They may do so as a goodwill gesture, but they are not responsible for what may or may not be in your car. Where does that lead, some customer claims that they had a fancy jump pack in the boot, now the dealer has to replace it? Simply not the case at all.

Exactly. The onus here is on the OP to prove that the items were in the car when it went in for the service, not on the dealer to prove that they werent. Im not saying that the OP is lying or that they are even mistaken, but you cant just turn around and demand that something be replaced without proof that it was there to begin with.

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

The onus is on the dealership to replace whatever was present in the car when it was left in, and is no longer there.

If the owner can prove that what they claim is missing was actually in the car.

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

Quite a bit harder to believe though. Fact is, any dealer can create a fake service history in about ten minutes should they want to, trust me, they don't need anybodies service book.

djimi wrote: »

Exactly. The onus here is on the OP to prove that the items were in the car when it went in for the service, not on the dealer to prove that they werent. Im not saying that the OP is lying or that they are even mistaken, but you cant just turn around and demand that something be replaced without proof that it was there to begin with.

djimi wrote: »

If the owner can prove that what they claim is missing was actually in the car.

Oh right so, they can take anything they like out of your car and just say 'prove it' to you.



glad you lads cleared that up.


You should work for insurance companies. They'd love you in the claims department.

djimi

listermint wrote: »

Oh right so, they can take anything they like out of your car and just say 'prove it' to you.

glad you lads cleared that up.

You should work for insurance companies. They'd love you in the claims department.

Whats the alternative? That its okay to accuse someone of stealing/losing something that you have no proof was ever there in the first place?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

If the owner can prove that what they claim is missing was actually in the car.

What, so I need an inventory every time I send my car in for a service ? :rolleyes:

Each CD, each floor mat, each pair of shades. Where do I draw the line? Will I have to prove the car had an engine and 4 wheels when it went in?

Seriously, come on.

biko

Well right now it's word against word.

OP, has that place done all services? If so you can probably get a replacement service book with stamps and dates from their system.

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

Oh right so, they can take anything they like out of your car and just say 'prove it' to you.

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

What, so I need an inventory every time I send my car in for a service ? :rolleyes:

You need to take the chip off your shoulder lads.

Fact is, if the dealer is to be liable, then yes indeed there is an onus to prove in some fashion that a crime actually occurred. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

The alternative is to have people collecting their car after service and then claiming that there was a €2000 laptop missing from the car. In your world the dealer would just have to take the customers word for it and pay for a new laptop. It would be an open invitation for wholesale fraud.

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

What, so I need an inventory every time I send my car in for a service ? :rolleyes:

Each CD, each floor mat, each pair of shades. Where do I draw the line? Will I have to prove the car had an engine and 4 wheels when it went in?

Seriously, come on.

You are accusing someone of theft without any proof that they actually stole anything (other than your word that you think that the item was in the car at the time). Say what you like, the bottom line is that its your word against theirs, and if you cant prove that the item was in the car in the first place then you are going to have a hard time proving that they took it.

Put it to you another way; whats the stop the OP turning around and saying that their iPad is also missing from the car? By your logic the dealer are responsible for replacing it even though there is no proof that they took it or indeed that it was ever in the car to begin with.

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

Quite a bit harder to believe though. Fact is, any dealer can create a fake service history in about ten minutes should they want to, trust me, they don't need anybodies service book.

djimi wrote: »

Exactly. The onus here is on the OP to prove that the items were in the car when it went in for the service, not on the dealer to prove that they werent. Im not saying that the OP is lying or that they are even mistaken, but you cant just turn around and demand that something be replaced without proof that it was there to begin with.

djimi wrote: »

If the owner can prove that what they claim is missing was actually in the car.

bucketybuck wrote: »

You need to take the chip off your shoulder lads.

Fact is, if the dealer is to be liable, then yes indeed there is an onus to prove in some fashion that a crime actually occurred. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

The alternative is to have people collecting their car after service and then claiming that there was a €2000 laptop missing from the car. In your world the dealer would just have to take the customers word for it and pay for a new laptop. It would be an open invitation for wholesale fraud.

Ah yes.. i knew you'd plop out an extreme example.

As an aside (that is why dealers have insurance) that is why insurance companies have fraud teams.

Back on point.

If the book was in the car, the dealer should replace. end of.

Anan1

Meanwhile back in the real world the dealership will replace the books.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

You are accusing someone of theft without any proof that they actually stole anything (other than your word that you think that the item was in the car at the time). Say what you like, the bottom line is that its your word against theirs, and if you cant prove that the item was in the car in the first place then you are going to have a hard time proving that they took it.

Put it to you another way; whats the stop the OP turning around and saying that their iPad is also missing from the car? By your logic the dealer are responsible for replacing it even though there is no proof that they took it or indeed that it was ever in the car to begin with.

But the converse is also true. If I need to prove everything, what is to stop a garage stealing stuff because they know it is word against word? Should I leave a detailed note anytime I leave the car anywhere?

bucketybuck wrote: »

You need to take the chip off your shoulder lads.

Fact is, if the dealer is to be liable, then yes indeed there is an onus to prove in some fashion that a crime actually occurred. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

.

No chip here just a debate with two opposing sides of view. After all, that is what the forum is about

There is an onus to prove that a crime occurred. What constitutes proof? That the owner shows a picture of the car sitting in the garage with the logbook? Does it need to be signed by both parties? Date stamped? Notarized? etc etc

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

As an aside (that is why dealers have insurance) that is why insurance companies have fraud teams.

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Still you have not addressed the point that in your world people can just claim items that didn't exist are missing from the car. Just bleating that dealers have insurance doesn't address the point at all.

djimi

Anan1 wrote: »

Meanwhile back in the real world the dealership will replace the books.

Im sure they probably will as its a small item and they wont want to lose a customer; my main issue was more at the OPs sense of entitlement to demand that it be replaced when they have no proof that it was taken in the first place. If the dealer told them to piss off with themselves then what further recourse do you expect the OP to have, other than taking their custom elsewhere?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Anan1 wrote: »

Meanwhile back in the real world the dealership will replace the books.

Proper order too.
Logbook =/= €2k laptop (or a picasso painting or whatever other off the wall example can be quoted)

I don't know what is going on here these days, I seem to be agreeing with Anan1 a lot.:pac:

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Still you have not addressed the point that in your world people can just claim items that didn't exist are missing from the car. Just bleating that dealers have insurance doesn't address the point at all.

And insurance companies have fraud teams...

Did you miss that part.



They are there to make sure people arent claiming items went missing from cars.


(thats what you pay them for.....)

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But the converse is also true. If I need to prove everything, what is to stop a garage stealing stuff because they know it is word against word? Should I leave a detailed note anytime I leave the car anywhere?

In reality you dont leave anything in the car that you dont want to lose. How do you expect to get something back if you cant prove that it was taken?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

In reality you dont leave anything in the car that you dont want to lose. How do you expect to get something back if you cant prove that it was taken?

It is a sad day if that is what the world has come to.

If I felt I had to treat a business in such a manner, I would assume that they were not of proper repute and as such would not entrust my car to them in the first place.

bucketybuck

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But the converse is also true. If I need to prove everything, what is to stop a garage stealing stuff because they know it is word against word? Should I leave a detailed note anytime I leave the car anywhere?

As an aside, you do realise that this concept does not just apply to garages? Its really the same concept whereby a carpark is not responsible for what you leave in your car, a gym is not responsible for what you leave in your locker, and a dry-cleaner is not responsible for what you leave in your suit pockets. They are not responsible for these things because its not reasonable to expect them to be responsible for every little thing you may or may not leave sitting at your arse.

Its all at your own risk, with the alternative being that you spend 30 mins with the service advisor going through every pocket of your car and drawing up a checklist of personal items that he will then have to sign for, and with all this being reflected in the increased cost of service.

Garages are no different than any other business. They will not steal your belongings because it would kill their reputation. If items do go missing then you have the right to never use their business again. You do have the right to call the police, but the fact is if you do the onus will be on you to prove a crime occurred, which is a pretty fundamental point of law.

And yes of course, unspoken here is the fact that in this case the dealer will probably just give them a new handbook just to save listening to the moaning.

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

And insurance companies have fraud teams...

Did you miss that part.



They are there to make sure people arent claiming items went missing from cars.


(thats what you pay them for.....)

You still don't know what you are talking about, your problem is that you think you are making a point here.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bucketybuck wrote: »

As an aside, you do realise that this concept does not just apply to garages? Its really the same concept whereby a carpark is not responsible for what you leave in your car, a gym is not responsible for what you leave in your locker, and a dry-cleaner is not responsible for what you leave in your suit pockets. They are not responsible for these things because its not reasonable to expect them to be responsible for every little thing you may or may not leave sitting at your arse.

Its all at your own risk, with the alternative being that you spend 30 mins with the service advisor going through every pocket of your car and drawing up a checklist of personal items that he will then have to sign for, and with all this being reflected in the increased cost of service.

Garages are no different than any other business. They will not steal your belongings because it would kill their reputation. If items do go missing then you have the right to never use their business again. You do have the right to call the police, but the fact is if you do the onus will be on you to prove a crime occurred, which is a pretty fundamental point of law.

And yes of course, unspoken here is the fact that in this case the dealer will probably just give them a new handbook just to save listening to the moaning.

Those examples are not really the same thing though, are they?

Leaving a car in a carpark does not equate to paying someone to service your car. Nor does leaving stuff in a locker or in pockets.

bucketybuck

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Those examples are not really the same thing though, are they?

Leaving a car in a carpark does not equate to paying someone to service your car. Nor does leaving stuff in a locker or in pockets.

Why are they not the same?

You leave suit to a dry-cleaner and there is cash in an inner pocket.

You leave a car to a garage and there is cash in a seat pocket.

What the material difference?

djimi

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Those examples are not really the same thing though, are they?

Leaving a car in a carpark does not equate to paying someone to service your car. Nor does leaving stuff in a locker or in pockets.

To use the example of the dry cleaners; would you expect them to hand you €20 because you claimed that there was money left in one of the pockets thats not there now? Or more so to the point, if they refused to give you the money, what action would you expect to be able to take that would result in them being made to reimburse you?

Cleveland Hot Pocket

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why are they not the same?

You leave suit to a dry-cleaner and there is cash in an inner pocket.

You leave a car to a garage and there is cash in a seat pocket.

What the material difference?

So you concede that the other two are not even closely related to the car issue.
The material difference is that you accept that your suit is going to be cleaned so that any foreign objects will be removed (including from pockets)
Whereas the car you are leaving in to have work done on the engine. No consequences intended for the interior.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

djimi wrote: »

To use the example of the dry cleaners; would you expect them to hand you €20 because you claimed that there was money left in one of the pockets thats not there now? Or more so to the point, if they refused to give you the money, what action would you expect to be able to take that would result in them being made to reimburse you?

None. I would lose the €20 as I would have known that the dry cleaner was going to, you know, clean the suit? Meaning that it is akin to washing it !

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

You still don't know what you are talking about, your problem is that you think you are making a point here.

You know the point, re-read my posts if you didnt get it the first time. Im not going back and stating the obvious.


I believe you are not intending to make a point rather increase your post count for no apparent reason.

Anan1

djimi wrote: »

Im sure they probably will as its a small item and they wont want to lose a customer; my main issue was more at the OPs sense of entitlement to demand that it be replaced when they have no proof that it was taken in the first place.

They're telling us that they know that it was taken.

djimi wrote: »

If the dealer told them to piss off with themselves then what further recourse do you expect the OP to have, other than taking their custom elsewhere?

None that I can think of.

bucketybuck

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

So you concede that the other two are not even closely related to the car issue.
The material difference is that you accept that your suit is going to be cleaned so that any foreign objects will be removed (including from pockets)
Whereas the car you are leaving in to have work done on the engine. No consequences intended for the interior.

I concede nothing, you seem to be focusing on minor details rather than the basic point in question. All the examples I gave have the same core concept, your vehicle/suit/gym bag were left at your own risk, and if you wanted to claim damages in either case then you would have to prove damage occurred.

If you wanted the money from your suit you would have to prove it was there in the first place, and if you wanted the books from your car you would have to prove they were there in the first place, just as has been said all along in this thread.

listermint

bucketybuck wrote: »

I concede nothing, you seem to be focusing on minor details rather than the basic point in question. All the examples I gave have the same core concept, your vehicle/suit/gym bag were left at your own risk, and if you wanted to claim damages in either case then you would have to prove damage occurred.

If you wanted the money from your suit you would have to prove it was there in the first place, and if you wanted the books from your car you would have to prove they were there in the first place, just as has been said all along in this thread.

How praytell does one prove that a laptop was sitting in the boot of their car to an insurance company if someone lashes your window out of it on a side street in dublin and makes off with the boot contents.

Please tell me in all its glory how this is proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

bucketybuck

listermint wrote: »

How praytell does one prove that a laptop was sitting in the boot of their car to an insurance company if someone lashes your window out of it on a side street in dublin and makes off with the boot contents.

Please tell me in all its glory how this is proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

:rolleyes:

In all your glory you have missed one vital point. If you want to prove that to an insurance company it is because you have a signed insurance policy in place to cover that very event.

You have no such agreement in place with the garage.

Seriously, you are flailing about and don't know what you are talking about, please go away.