Stopped on double yellow lines - but didn't exit car - is a parking ticket valid ?

worded

I stopped on a double yellow for a few mins but didn't exit the car. A camera poss picked up my reg as no police approached me

I also think the time was out on the ticket by 1-2 hours.

Got fine in the post

Valid ?

whippet

worded wrote: »

I stopped on a double yellow for a few mins but didn't exit the car. A camera poss picked up my reg as no police approached me

I also think the time was out on the ticket by 1-2 hours.

Got fine in the post

Valid ?

Of course it's valid .. You don't have to get out of the car to be parked

Cee-Jay-Cee

Yes.

Double yellow means no parking. If you were stopped then you were parked, whether you were in the car it not is irrelevant.

The time thing will get explained away as a tech fault but so long as your registration plate is clearly legible you can't argue it didn't park there regardless of the time.

sebastianlieken

I would be inclined to say yes it is valid.

Dictionary definition of parking:

(1) bring (a vehicle that one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily, typically in a car park or by the side of the road.

Yep, you did that.

From citizens information on parking fines Link

A system of parking fees, restrictions and fines is in place throughout towns and cities in Ireland to ensure that careless parking does not cause obstructions for other motorists, businesses and impinge on the safety of pedestrians.

The car was on double yellow lines, potentially being an obstruction and impinging on safety.

From the S.I. No. 182/1997 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997 Link

Non-application of certain Prohibitions and Restrictions
5. (1) These Regulations shall apply save where compliance is not possible as a result of an obstruction to traffic or pedestrians or because of an emergency situation confronting a road user which could not reasonably have been expected or anticipated.

(2) Save where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, a prohibition on the entry of a vehicle to a road or an area or the prohibition on the stopping or parking of a vehicle imposed by these Regulations shall not apply to—

( a ) a vehicle used in connection with the removal of an obstruction to traffic;

( b ) a vehicle being used in connection with the carrying out of roadworks;

( c ) a fire brigade, an ambulance, or a vehicle being used by a member of the Garda Síochána in performance of the duties of that member;

( d ) a vehicle which has been damaged or has broken down, during the period necessary to effect repairs to the vehicle or remove it from the location;

( e ) a prohibition on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 36(2)(a) shall not apply to a vehicle parked while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it, for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of the parking.

(3) A restriction on the parking of a vehicle imposed by article 37 shall not apply to

( a ) a vehicle to which paragraphs (a),(b),(c) or (d) of sub-article (2) applies;

( b ) a vehicle parked at the edge of a roadway while a passenger is entering or leaving it; or

( c ) a vehicle parked while goods are being loaded in or on to it or unloaded from it, for a period not exceeding thirty minutes from the commencement of the parking.

No "get out of jail free" card from that i'm afraid.

and Boom, the final nail

Prohibitions on Parking
36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5, a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose referred to in this article.

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

( a ) on that side of a section of roadway along the edge of which traffic sign number RRM 008 [double yellow lines] has been provided;

So even if you claim you were "loading/unloading" for no more than 30 minutes... you were still on double yellows.

ImDave

What kind of cameras are monitoring for this kind of thing? Gardai or City Council?

ba_barabus

Did this happen in Ireland or the uk OP?

I haven't heard of them using cameras in Ireland for this yet. Was it the Gardai, City Council, private company on behalf of the Council or was it just a ticket from a private company who issued the ticket?

seamus

"Parking" doesn't mean stopping the vehicle, switching off the engine and getting out of it. It just means stopping the vehicle. I wish more drivers, especially taxis, would understand that it's not legal to just stop on double-yellows because you're taking a phone call or you're waiting for someone.

omega666

I wouldn’t pay it OP.

Let it go to court and it should get thrown out as it can be proved the camera is unreliable/faulty due to the time being incorrect.

Anan1

omega666 wrote: »

I wouldn’t pay it OP.

Let it go to court and it should get thrown out as it can be proved the camera is unreliable/faulty due to the time being incorrect.

Assuming that the OP's time is worth less than the fine.

ba_barabus

Anan1 wrote: »

Assuming that the OP's time is worth less than the fine.

And they're happy to put up with the annoyance of the whole situation

REXER

seamus wrote: »

"Parking" doesn't mean stopping the vehicle, switching off the engine and getting out of it. It just means stopping the vehicle. I wish more drivers, especially taxis, would understand that it's not legal to just stop on double-yellows because you're taking a phone call or you're waiting for someone.

So following on from this logic a row of traffic backed up and stopped should generate a good revenue stream as they will all be "parked". :eek:

Westernyelp

REXER wrote: »

So following on from this logic a row of traffic backed up and stopped should generate a good revenue stream as they will all be "parked". :eek:

Nope, you are making progress and keeping up with the flow of traffic in this instance

CiniO

REXER wrote: »

So following on from this logic a row of traffic backed up and stopped should generate a good revenue stream as they will all be "parked". :eek:

No.
Vehicles stopped in traffic, are not parked. (like traffic jams, traffic lights, in front of pedestrian crossings, etc).
If you are stock in traffic jam for few hours, and you get out of vehicle and put a tent outside on the grass, you are not parked.

colm_mcm

CiniO wrote: »

No.
Vehicles stopped in traffic, are not parked. (like traffic jams, traffic lights, in front of pedestrian crossings, etc).
If you are stock in traffic jam for few hours, and you get out of vehicle and put a tent outside on the grass, you are not parked.

I dunno, that sounds fairly parked to me! Assuming you're the driver

ba_barabus

I think OP needs to clarify where the ticket was issued and by whom.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

I dunno, that sounds fairly parked to me! Assuming you're the driver

I can't find it at the minute, but I'm sure I've seen a law saying that parking doesn't apply to vehicles in traffic. So in other words, you are parked if you decide to stop the vehicle yourself for your own reasons. If you are stopped, because you can't proceed in traffic, then you are not parked.

bazz26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_mO_QNeyfk

djimi

I dont see how this could be upheld to be honest. A camera takes a snapshot of a moment in time; what is to say that you werent stopped for two seconds when the camera took the picture? I dont see many judges considering a momentary (ie a couple of seconds) stop to be parking, yet there is no way for the camera to prove how long you were parked there.

sonny jim bob jones

OP, did you have your hazard lights on?

endacl

sonny jim bob jones wrote: »

OP, did you have your hazard lights on?

Good point. Double yellow lights cancel double yellow lines. Everybody knows that!

sonny jim bob jones

djimi wrote: »

I dont see how this could be upheld to be honest. A camera takes a snapshot of a moment in time; what is to say that you werent stopped for two seconds when the camera took the picture? I dont see many judges considering a momentary (ie a couple of seconds) stop to be parking, yet there is no way for the camera to prove how long you were parked there.

The OP has admitted to being there for more than a point in time. Are you suggesting that he commit perjury by lying to the judge in court?

djimi

sonny jim bob jones wrote: »

The OP has admitted to being there for more than a point in time. Are you suggesting that he commit perjury by lying to the judge in court?

Im talking in general. Its not reliable evidence for the crime that it is reporting on.

Fighting Irish

seamus wrote: »

"Parking" doesn't mean stopping the vehicle, switching off the engine and getting out of it. It just means stopping the vehicle. I wish more drivers, especially taxis, would understand that it's not legal to just stop on double-yellows because you're taking a phone call or you're waiting for someone.

I hate when people obstruct traffic flow but for some reason i don't mind when taxis do it

endacl

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I hate when people obstruct traffic flow but for some reason i don't mind when taxis do it

Ignorant driving is ignorant driving. Pi55es me off even more when taxi drivers do it. 'Professional' drivers...?

wexie

omega666 wrote: »

I wouldn’t pay it OP.

Let it go to court and it should get thrown out as it can be proved the camera is unreliable/faulty due to the time being incorrect.

Hard to argue with a photo, regardless of what time is on it and the time being wrong on it in no way takes away from the functioning of the image capturing function.

Djimi might have a point though, it's a point in time, unless there are several pictures some time apart (regardless of what that time is).

But....even just a point in time could be enough in court.

markad1

endacl wrote: »

Good point. Double yellow lights cancel double yellow lines. Everybody knows that!

Only if your a taxi. the double yellow lights cover everything

omega666

wexie wrote: »

Hard to argue with a photo, regardless of what time is on it and the time being wrong on it in no way takes away from the functioning of the image capturing function.

Djimi might have a point though, it's a point in time, unless there are several pictures some time apart (regardless of what that time is).

But....even just a point in time could be enough in court.

Doesn’t matter if the picture shows him doing handstands on his bonnet.
If the camera is shown to not be functioning correctly then it can’t be used as a reliable piece of evidence against him.

Red Nissan

endacl wrote: »

Good point. Double yellow lights cancel double yellow lines. Everybody knows that!

Good to know actually, thanks.

However, just yesterday I had this unfortunate incident, driving in traffic and approaching a junction my vehicle cut out. We cleared the blocked traffic and investigated the cause.

An earth strap had come off, the vehicle is out of service only a few days so the mechanic must have disturbed it, anyhow we looked parked on double yellows with no hazards as we had nothing at all.

aujopimur

Single yellow line = No Parking atall.
Double yelloe line = No Parking atall atall
Double red line (UK) No Parking atall atall atall atall atall atall.

ferretone

There always seems to be such confusion in this country over these distinctions! I did German driving school back in the day, and for the theory part there was a clear lesson on the difference between parking, stopping and waiting.

Waiting is where traffic conditions don't allow you to proceed, be it at a traffic light, zebre crossing with pedestrians, jam, whatever. Even this you aren't allowed to do in certain places, eg opposite junctions except when turning right, though in Ireland you generally have yellow boxes to hammer the point home, as we aren't properly trained to drive.

Stopping is where you voluntarily halt the vehicle for a period of up to 3 minutes, without leaving the car. This may be done on a single yellow line, but not a double one.

Parking is where you stop for a period exceeding 3 minutes, or leave the car. You may not do this on either a double or single yellow line.

So it really makes no difference whether the OP was parking or stopping, as it was a double yellow line, and they clearly were not waiting.

ironclaw

ba_barabus wrote: »

Did this happen in Ireland or the uk OP?

I haven't heard of them using cameras in Ireland for this yet. Was it the Gardai, City Council, private company on behalf of the Council or was it just a ticket from a private company who issued the ticket?

Must have been private. Or, and pure speculation, the Gardai have a number of cameras mounted high in crime hotspots (Bray, Dun Laoghaire for example) A really bored operator could have notice the car parked up for a period and issued a fine by zooming in on the reg.

So OP, can you clarify who issued the ticket and where?

djimi

ferretone wrote: »

There always seems to be such confusion in this country over these distinctions! I did German driving school back in the day, and for the theory part there was a clear lesson on the difference between parking, stopping and waiting.

Waiting is where traffic conditions don't allow you to proceed, be it at a traffic light, zebre crossing with pedestrians, jam, whatever. Even this you aren't allowed to do in certain places, eg opposite junctions except when turning right, though in Ireland you generally have yellow boxes to hammer the point home, as we aren't properly trained to drive.

Stopping is where you voluntarily halt the vehicle for a period of up to 3 minutes, without leaving the car. This may be done on a single yellow line, but not a double one.

Parking is where you stop for a period exceeding 3 minutes, or leave the car. You may not do this on either a double or single yellow line.

So it really makes no difference whether the OP was parking or stopping, as it was a double yellow line, and they clearly were not waiting.

Are those definitions as clearly definied in Irish law? It would make a lot of sense if they were, but I dont think that they are. Even for single yellow lines I think the definition is somewhat ambiguous; I seem to remember being told that you can park on a single yellow line for a short period of time when learning, without any clear definition of "short period" being given.

Anan1

ironclaw wrote: »

Must have been private. Or, and pure speculation, the Gardai have a number of cameras mounted high in crime hotspots (Bray, Dun Laoghaire for example) A really bored operator could have notice the car parked up for a period and issued a fine by zooming in on the reg.

So OP, can you clarify who issued the ticket and where?

The Gardaí have been issuing paperless tickets for a few years now - might have been a passing Garda car.

timmy4u2

I will look into this as I think that the OP may have a case.

In the days gone by there was a distinct definition of what parking was as there was a definition of waiting, hence the no waiting regulation and there certainly is a different offence of causing an obstruction through parking. You do not need yellow lines to allow the offence of to park causing an obstruction.
I do know that heretofore a warden was not empowered to place a ticket on a vehicle that was stopped with the driver at the controls.
I am a bit rusty with what the amendments may have made or how they may have impacted on the byelaws.

If any body has more time than I have at the moment they might look up the interpretation Act notwithstanding that there may be cases stated.
I do know that you are exempt the regulations under the Dublin bye laws if you are loading or unloading a car provided it is NOT in a designated loading bay

Spook_ie

endacl wrote: »

Ignorant driving is ignorant driving. Pi55es me off even more when taxi drivers do it. 'Professional' drivers...?

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off? Throw them out at speed and advise they hit the ground rolling!

Anan1

Spook_ie wrote: »

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off?

Without obstructing traffic flow, same as any other driver.

markpb

Spook_ie wrote: »

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off? Throw them out at speed and advise they hit the ground rolling!

Find somewhere legal to stop?

timmy4u2

Spook_ie wrote: »

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off? Throw them out at speed and advise they hit the ground rolling!

Under the dublin bye laws the act of dropping off or picking up passengers is allowed.

Spook_ie

Anan1 wrote: »

Without obstructing traffic flow, same as any other driver.

Ah you mean do a Ryanair job on them and drop them off somewhere else away from their required destination. That 'll work :-D

bumper234

Spook_ie wrote: »

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off? Throw them out at speed and advise they hit the ground rolling!

Anan1 wrote: »

Without obstructing traffic flow, same as any other driver.

Just LOL! :rolleyes:

gordongekko

I'm at this very moment parked in a loading bay that also has double yellow lines. My head hurts wondering where i stand legally.

CiniO

ferretone wrote: »

There always seems to be such confusion in this country over these distinctions! I did German driving school back in the day, and for the theory part there was a clear lesson on the difference between parking, stopping and waiting.

Waiting is where traffic conditions don't allow you to proceed, be it at a traffic light, zebre crossing with pedestrians, jam, whatever. Even this you aren't allowed to do in certain places, eg opposite junctions except when turning right, though in Ireland you generally have yellow boxes to hammer the point home, as we aren't properly trained to drive.

Stopping is where you voluntarily halt the vehicle for a period of up to 3 minutes, without leaving the car. This may be done on a single yellow line, but not a double one.

Parking is where you stop for a period exceeding 3 minutes, or leave the car. You may not do this on either a double or single yellow line.

So it really makes no difference whether the OP was parking or stopping, as it was a double yellow line, and they clearly were not waiting.

I don't think you can base rules which apply in Ireland from German law.

endacl

Spook_ie wrote: »

And how do you propose that taxis drop passengers off? Throw them out at speed and advise they hit the ground rolling!

Same way I do. Find a sensible spot to stop?

REXER

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think you can base rules which apply in Ireland from German law.

Don't forget who runs the show here now! The TROIKA makes the rules and don't let Enda tell you anything different!

ba_barabus

Anan1 wrote: »

The Gardaí have been issuing paperless tickets for a few years now - might have been a passing Garda car.

Very interesting. I knew it took place in other places but I never realised the Gardai did it. It must be a pretty rare occurrence for it to happen, unless of course you really are causing major obstruction such as that Micra which blocked the Luas some time back.

ironclaw

Anan1 wrote: »

The Gardaí have been issuing paperless tickets for a few years now - might have been a passing Garda car.

A passing Garda car would more than likely stop, few Gardai could pass up the opportunity to lecture someone. They don't use ANPR to issue parking tickets and I certainly doubt they would make a note of the reg to issue a ticket later. Also common sense would prevail and I'm sure most Garda would allow someone a momentary stop on double yellows (I'm talking 30 secs tops to drop someone off i.e. An elderly relative or perhaps the car is immobilised / broken down) All of the above you couldn't do by merely passing by.

Maybe its buried in the thread but who issued the ticket?

ba_barabus

ironclaw wrote: »

Maybe its buried in the thread but who issued the ticket?

First question I asked and it still hasn't been answered.

Lots of advice been given on a thread which is missing the important details.