Simon Dyson Disqualification

SnowDrifts

Just read today that the PGA are investigating disciplinary action against Dyson following this.

A fairly sternly written article here http://espn.go.com/golf/notebook/_/page/birdiesandbogeys131030/debate-surrounds-golf-rules-breech-birdies-bogeys which raises some valid points. One of which suggests that if Tiger was labelled a cheater (incorrectly IMO) for the circumstances earlier this year.. isn't what Dyson did a lot more blatant?

Here is a clip if anyone hasn't seen it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14zJgTZdZYo

Dyson released the following statement regarding the investigation

I have been informed of the procedure being put in place by The Tour following my actions during the second round of the BMW Masters in Shanghai last week and am perfectly happy to co-operate with the investigation by the independent disciplinary panel.
I would like to say at this stage that I have never deliberately broken the rules either on this occasion or in the past. It was only after I was shown the replay of my action after marking the ball on the eighth green during the second round that I realised what I had done and that I was in breach. I immediately accepted that I should be disqualified.
My action was in no way a deliberate act with the intention of breaking the rules. It was simply an accidental mistake which I have no reservations in apologising for and particularly to my fellow professionals and The Tour for any inconvenience and embarrassment unintentionally caused.

alxmorgan

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Just read today that the PGA are investigating disciplinary action against Dyson following this.

A fairly sternly written article here http://espn.go.com/golf/notebook/_/page/birdiesandbogeys131030/debate-surrounds-golf-rules-breech-birdies-bogeys which raises some valid points. One of which suggests that if Tiger was labelled a cheater (incorrectly IMO) for the circumstances earlier this year.. isn't what Dyson did a lot more blatant?

Here is a clip if anyone hasn't seen it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14zJgTZdZYo

Dyson released the following statement regarding the investigation

Mountain and mole hill spring to mind.
Surely disqualification is enough FFS

slave1

Agree, if he tapped down the *spike* mark then that's bad, the fact he used his ball to interfere with the line was compounding.
Still, can't see the point in this amount of follow up by the tour

TrapperChamonix

Quite clear that he was in the wrong. Hard to say if it was premeditated or just a brain fart. Assuming that there is no history of this, I would assume disqualification and a warning would be sufficient.

Re the ESPN article, the issue with Tiger in the Masters was that he wasn't DQed

SnowDrifts

Yeah disqualification seems like enough punishment. I take it the investigation is to find out if it was premeditated or not but sure how will they ever ascertain that.

gotapaininmy

Tiger did cheat this year. The Masters organisers used the rule incorrectly to keep their ratings horse on the screen. If Tiger had any integrity he would have DQ'd himself but I think it is evident to most golf fans (as opposed to Tiger fans) that he doesn't. Can you imagine Nicklaus behaving like Tiger? Don't think so. In relation to Dyson, disqualification seems to be enough, not sure why the tour is making more of it.

ssbob

Seems like a nice guy, never heard any rumours of him being this way inclined so would have to think its a brainfart!

His statement is clear that he accepts the punsihment, let that be the end of it.

realgolfgeek

disqualification ... just leave it that PGA !! ffs,
I'm sure he won't be doing that again !!

realgolfgeek

gotapaininmy wrote: »

The Masters organisers used the rule incorrectly.

Eh, no ... they didn't.

gotapaininmy

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Eh, no ... they didn't.

How so?

WHIP IT!

It's alot easier to come down like a ton of bricks on a Simon Dyson than it is a Tiger Woods... it's the same unwritten rule for these lads as it is for kids playing on an under-10 football team: The better you are, the more you can get away with...

Dealerz

Re dyson I think a dq is sufficient enough.

Re tiger woods- I think he is guilty on all counts of playing outside the rules.

The drop at the masters was a complete farce, the drop at the players is just plain cheating in my opinion.
His intimidation (bullying) of fellow players and referees shows the class of the man.

The BMW championship incident is a disgrace by tiger woods- to be arguing with slugger white and by slugger white to even accept such behaviour was feeble.

I can't remember the Abu dahbi incident.

This golfer knows the rules- it would be impossible not to get to his level of the game and not know how to take a drop

SnowDrifts

Sigh... the Tiger cheating topic again. The most annoying thing on this forum for me is when you defend or criticise a player, you are a lover or hater.

The masters: (requoting myself) Tiger made an illegal drop and dropped 2 yards further back. This was a brain fart by him.

He came straight in after his round and said to the media "I dropped the ball 2 yards further back this time to have a perfect yardage in."

Now if he was trying to purposely cheat and deceive the world by doing this... why in God's name would he say it straight to the media? It was only after he said it that the sh1tstorm started.

In my opinion, any suggestion that he cheated by doing so is just 100% wrong and uneducated. Was he a dumba$$? - Absolutely.

The committee utilized rule 33.7 to ensure Tiger was not disqualified. Hardly Tiger's fault this rule A) exists and the committee used it.


The Players: How could spectators tell from camera angles? Tiger and his playing partner agreed on line of entry.. end of.

Abu Dahbi: Even suggesting this is cheating reflects very poorly on one's own intellect.

BMW: Now this is the only incident worthy of debate. Tiger said the ball merely oscillated... he could well have honestly thought that. However, after reviewing the evidence on camera, he should have admitted that the ball did not return to it's original position. Either way... he got the penalty for it.

realgolfgeek

gotapaininmy wrote: »

How so?

oh there's another thread on here somewhere, have a search of it if you like.
bottom line is, your statement is incorrect.
This thread is regarding dysons disqualification, not Tiger. Over and Out.

gotapaininmy

realgolfgeek wrote: »

oh there's another thread on here somewhere, have a search of it if you like.
bottom line is, your statement is incorrect.
This thread is regarding dysons disqualification, not Tiger. Over and Out.

I don't think is was incorrect but point taken, thread is not about TW. Out.

SnowDrifts

So back on topic... does anyone think what Dyson did was deliberate? The article linked above would suggest some thought so...

vienne86

SnowDrifts wrote: »

So back on topic... does anyone think what Dyson did was deliberate? The article linked above would suggest some thought so...

I don't know much about this sort of thing, but I would very much doubt his tap down with the ball was a deliberate cheat - stupid mistake, and in full view of cameras. I think the disqualification sanction was enough and the tour should move on.

I watch a lot of European Tour on TV, and while I am no particular fan or critic of Dyson, he strikes me as a decent enough guy. I'd be amazed if cheating had ever entered his head.

TrapperChamonix

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Sigh... the Tiger cheating topic again.

Dude, you're the one who posted the link to the ESPN Article.

SnowDrifts

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Dude, you're the one who posted the link to the ESPN Article.

I did so for the purpose of discussing the Dyson incident.


The Irish Times lists the sanctions in this article... http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/simon-dyson-to-face-disciplinary-panel-1.1579232

Hopefully a reprimand is all that will come of it.

John Divney

This is utter overkill, and I think it's very poor form to treat the guy like a cheater via serious breach of the rules machinery, for a lapse which seemed to be instinctive error.

Why can't the player be given the benefit of the doubt like they are in so many other errors?Grounding a club in the hazard, way worse, nobody gets bloody banned for it.

Treating him like that chap who kept marking his ball ridiculously and was clearly cheating.

SnowDrifts

Was just reading about it over on The Irish Golf Desk and they highlighted the following quote.....

"After an initial report that claimed he had “no recollection” of the incident, officials are understood to have collected evidence on other violations of which Dyson, a six-time winner on tour, has been accused this season."

Hmmmm...

Daithio12

You can hardly blame him now, can ya, if it's good enough for Tiger, then why not for wee Dyson?.
Oh yea let me see, Dyson doesn't create and attract the same revenue as Tiger does and has done for the last 20+ years, I wonder does that have anything to do with it at all atall?.

gotapaininmy

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Was just reading about it over on The Irish Golf Desk and they highlighted the following quote.....



Hmmmm...

Interesting indeed. The more you look at it the more you think "what the hell was he doing???!!" Brain fart?? I know he didn't say that exactly but he did in so many words. Would a seasoned professional really make such a mistake? Would he be silly enough to do it in live TV?

John Divney

Assembling evidence seems like standard procedure, not that he has actually done anything.

SnowDrifts

John Divney wrote: »

Assembling evidence seems like standard procedure, not that he has actually done anything.

But this "understood to have collected evidence on other violations " would suggest they have information against him.

WHIP IT!

SnowDrifts wrote: »

But this "understood to have collected evidence on other violations " would suggest they have information against him.

Yeah it's a weird one isn't it - I mean, have they been sitting on evidence for some reason or has this latest 'infringement' just been a coincidence and they planned to 'charge' him anyway??

John Divney

That could be standard penalty shots he was accused of, not serious rule breaches.

Not sure why they have to make it public anyway, until he has been given a hearing, the mud sticks,

Howjoe1

When I read about it first, I thought it was a storm in a tea cup. But having watched it, I think it was a sly deliberate breach of the rule. And the noise coming out that he has a bit of a track record diminishes my sympathy. We all come across guys either at clubs or societies that regularly win prizes and you know that they have selective memories with shots taken, playing to rules etc.

It does beg the question, why hasn't he been penalised or disq before if so many other instances exist?

realgolfgeek

I think people need to chill out and actually see if and what other evidence is available.

Extremely poor form to print something like that out without backing it up. Very Poor imo

stockdam

Not sure what this is all about. He broke a rule and was DQ for it. He hardly tried to defend what he had done (not that there is any defence other than "I don't know what I was thinking of").

There's no evidence that he has tried to break the rules before so as a one-off then he got his punishment and it was far from the worst offence that I can think of as it was in clear view and was easily caught.

m r c

What I think happened.

He was marked his ball, was lifting it up and noticed the spike mark and tapped it down immediately and instinctively without in any way meaning to cheat/break rules.

I genuinely believe the above but I think he copped what he did as he stood up because he seemed to sorta look around as he stood up. Now I'm just guessing but I think he decided to stay stum assuming no one had it copped and he thought he was ok.

IMHO worth the dq but nothing further.

Goldenjohn

Disappointing that none of his playing partners noticed it. whether it was intentional or not they should have at least seen it and questioned it.

Goldenjohn

m r c wrote: »

What I think happened.

He was marked his ball, was lifting it up and noticed the spike mark and tapped it down immediately and instinctively without in any way meaning to cheat/break rules.

I genuinely believe the above but I think he copped what he did as he stood up because he seemed to sorta look around as he stood up. Now I'm just guessing but I think he decided to stay stum assuming no one had it copped and he thought he was ok.

IMHO worth the dq but nothing further.

If thats what happened he deserves a holiday as it looks like his initial action was instinctive, which is obviously forgivable but his rational thought process was to cheat because he thought he could get away with it.
Irrelvant anyway because we'll never be 100% what his thought process was we can only take his word for it
For the record, Imo i think he made an honest mistake. DQ is enough punishment

Dero123

It looks bad and is going to take some explanation to avoid a lengthy ban, whether it was deliberate or not you have to ask how many time have you yourself or have you ever seen anyone tap a spike mark down with a ball. Personally I have only ever done it with a putter on the way off the green

FixdePitchmark

Dero123 wrote: »

It looks bad and is going to take some explanation to avoid a lengthy ban, whether it was deliberate or not you have to ask how many time have you yourself or have you ever seen anyone tap a spike mark down with a ball. Personally I have only ever done it with a putter on the way off the green

Sorry - I know the rule - but just to ask the daft question - what is wrong with what he did - why is it in rules ?

Another days work - but it could go into the stupid rules thread in a way.

For Paws

My 2 cents worth :

It looks deliberate.
Rules don't distinguish between accidental and deliberate touching of line of putt, but Rule is clear & DQ correct.

Very poor form of the Tour to imply other instances before review finalised.
It seems to imply that other offences are going to be taken into consideration within this review / investigation. It may be that other 'instances' witnessed only by one player, and not on TV, were brought to the Tour's notice, but not acted on.
Repeated breaches of the Rules, particularly when the player has gained an advantage, should result in a sanction, by fine or temporary ban, or both.

hesker

Does the way he marked the ball not seem strange to anyone. This was what I first thought was being highlighted. I didn't even notice the tap down at first.

I always thought the marker had to be directly behind the ball on a line from the hole to the ball.


http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1

Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball.

For Paws

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Sorry - I know the rule - but just to ask the daft question - what is wrong with what he did - why is it in rules ?

Another days work - but it could go into the stupid rules thread in a way.

Possibly the most stupid rule is that a player may repair a ball mark (possibly created by his own ball) on his line of putt, but not a spike mark made by someone else.

Club & Greenkeepers go to great lengths to prepare Greens.
They actively encourage the repair of ball marks & old hole plugs.
Guy taps down a 'spike' mark & Rules officials pounce.
Idiotic.

downthemiddle

hesker wrote: »

Does the way he marked the ball not seem strange to anyone. This was what I first thought was being highlighted. I didn't even notice the tap down at first.

I always thought the marker had to be directly behind the ball on a line from the hole to the ball.


http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1

There is definitely more to this than meets the eye. It would make you wonder does Dyson have a history.

GreeBo

let's not speculate or damn someone without proof please

John Divney

GreeBo wrote: »

let's not speculate or damn someone without proof please

Correct.

Golf is touted as a game of integrity, so being labelled a cheater is the worst thing you can accuse somebody of.

The tour should not be commenting or leaking talk of 'evidence' before a panel has even been picked. Really poor form.

GreeBo

hesker wrote: »

Does the way he marked the ball not seem strange to anyone. This was what I first thought was being highlighted. I didn't even notice the tap down at first.

I always thought the marker had to be directly behind the ball on a line from the hole to the ball.


http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=1

as long as the ball goes back in the same place there is no issue.
should != must.

BigChap1759

Let's just be very clear as some posters seem to think/imply it was a pitch mark - it was not a pitch mark, it was a spike mark.

Every pro knows that you cannot do this so the theory that it was "instinctive" just doesn't wash with me - it's a clear and very serious breach of the rules IMO

peepee

When golfers finish a hole its fairly common to see them tapping down spike marks as a courtesy for players following. To me it simply looked like an automatic response as if he had just picked up the ball out of the hole. I cannot believe any pro golfer would risk his reputation for such a tiny advantage.

hesker

GreeBo wrote: »

as long as the ball goes back in the same place there is no issue.
should != must.

True. And on further checking there is even a decision devoted to it.

As regards to the investigation, I'm inclined to think that Dyson is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Anyone can make a mistake, even if it was a deliberate act. He was punished accordingly by the DQ and accepted it. As others have said if the R&A want to review any player's pattern of behaviour I believe they should keep it confidential and discuss it with the player first before going public.

stockdam

So the guy has OCD and see a spike mark and instinctively taps it down as it annoys him.

There's nothing to suggest that it wasn't instinctive. Maybe he was tired and maybe he just messed up.

fullstop

slave1 wrote: »

Agree, if he tapped down the pitch mark then that's bad, the fact he used his ball to interfere with the line was compounding.
Still, can't see the point in this amount of follow up by the tour

It was a spike mark. You can repair a pitch mark.

ernieprice

GreeBo wrote: »

as long as the ball goes back in the same place there is no issue.
should != must.

Decisions on the Rules of Golf 2012-2013
20-1/19
Placing Object Marking Position of Ball Other Than Behind Ball
Q When marking the position of a ball, must the ball-marker be placed behind the ball or may it also be placed to the side of or in front of the ball.

A There is no restriction. However, if a player positions his ball-marker in front of the ball on the putting green and in the process does something to the green that improves the line of putt(e.g. presses down a raised tuft of grass), he is in breach of rule 13-2.
Placing a ball-marker in front of the ball is not recommended but is not a breach of Rule 16-1a because this Rule permits touching the line of putt in lifting a ball, and marking the position of the ball is part of the lifting process. (Revised)

Gin77

stockdam wrote: »

So the guy has OCD and see a spike mark and instinctively taps it down as it annoys him.

There's nothing to suggest that it wasn't instinctive. Maybe he was tired and maybe he just messed up.

I think the guys that wrote the rules had ocd. Who else would come up with that stuff.
I would like to know the history of the development of each rule (now thats ocd) but back when sheep were cutting the grass did those rules exist?
The problem with making new rules is that, the people that made them lose face if the go back on them. They had to put so much effort to convince the R&A to publish them its difficult to go backward. So imo the need to be revised as it is stifling the game.

FixdePitchmark

Gin77 wrote: »

I think the guys that wrote the rules had ocd. Who else would come up with that stuff.
I would like to know the history of the development of each rule (now thats ocd) but back when sheep were cutting the grass did those rules exist?
The problem with making new rules is that, the people that made them lose face if the go back on them. They had to put so much effort to convince the R&A to publish them its difficult to go backward. So imo the need to be revised as it is stifling the game.

Can anybody think of the logic of the rule.

GreeBo

Gin77 wrote: »

I think the guys that wrote the rules had ocd. Who else would come up with that stuff.
I would like to know the history of the development of each rule (now thats ocd) but back when sheep were cutting the grass did those rules exist?
The problem with making new rules is that, the people that made them lose face if the go back on them. They had to put so much effort to convince the R&A to publish them its difficult to go backward. So imo the need to be revised as it is stifling the game.

The rules are there because people, being people, will always push the boundaries.
You'd end up with someone pressing down a groove for each putt if you didnt have rules like this.